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  1. #1
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    Reaver Feedback and Balance Suggestions

    The Reaver, currently in a rather odd position. It still has some decent burst, if Impale crits. But it’s sustained damage is laughable. At the same time it also very much suffers from BPE and barely brings anything to the table in group situations. Combined with how Wrath currently works makes for a (tanky) mess of a class.
    In the following post I will be suggesting a lot of possible changes to the Reaver class.

    Damage Changes
    Note - These suggested damage changes are simply to attempt and get skills more in line with each other. I have attempted this by increasing damage on low CD skills for higher sustained damage and evaluating under-/un- used skills in order to make them worthwhile to use more/again. Since I’m probably biased, suggested changes might already be too much. It is very difficult deciding on damage changes without any point of reference. Everything is so much out of whack right now.

    Suggestions are first of all based on Reaver’s base damage. I have mapped out every single skill and it’s damage values in an excel sheet. Other than that I have done damage parses on Dummies, NPC’s, Creeps and Freeps, on both Live and BR. I have taken both sources into a count to come to these values.

    The following proposed changes are only about damage values. Possible skill and trait changes will follow after this section.
    Everything is subject to change. Feedback is more than welcome.

    General: AoE’s should always hit what you are targeting. Not getting any bleeds on your target because of NPC’s is infuriating.

    Ravage: Increase the damage by 40%. Fix 3rd hit built in Critical Multiplier. It’s lower than the first 2 hits.
    Gut Punch: Increase the damage by 80%.
    Sudden Strikes: Increase the damage by 30%.
    Lacerate: Increase the damage by 40%. Increase the damage of the bleed by 50%. Add an initial hit to the bleed.
    Jagged Cut: Increase the damage by 30%. Increase the damage of the bleed by 40%. Add an initial hit to the bleed.
    Sundering Blow: Increase the damage by 75%.
    Serration: Increase the damage by 100%.
    Severing Strike: Increase the damage by 175%.
    Blade Toss: Increase the damage by 20%.
    Mutilation: Increase the damage by 75%. Increase the damage of the bleed by 100%. Add an initial hit to the bleed.
    Thrash: Increase the damage by 100%. Fix 3rd hit built in Critical Multiplier. It’s lower than the first 2 hits.
    Savage Wound: Currently the bleeds are rather lackluster, T1 and T2 do approximately the same amount of damage. Increase the damage of the T1 bleed by 100%. Increase the damage of the T2 bleed by 150%. Increase the damage of the T3 bleed by 100%. Add an initial hit and a hit on expiration to all the 3 tiers. Let T3 tier down to T2 and T2 to T1 on expiration.
    Impale: Impale tooltip states that it ''Does 25% additional damage per bleed, which ignores all mitigations.''. There’s something wrong with the calculation. Currently the additional hits do about ~20% of the base hit (on a non crit). Either the calculations are wrong or the damage doesn’t fully bypass mitigations or the skill simply doesn’t do what the tooltip says it should.

    Skill Changes
    Charge: Increase duration from 8s to 10s - OR - Lower CD from 20s to 15s. (Not too important though)
    Resilience: Needs to be fixed. It barely works. It’s not immediate when you hit it while stunned. It doesn’t provide the move speed immunity over half of the time. It doesn’t provide the 5s CC immunity when you use it to break stuns with Enhanced Resilience slotted.
    Blood Lust: Turn the 3% melee critical into 3% critical.
    Time-Out: Scale up the initial power gained and the ICPR. Something like 1200 ICPR and 1000-1300 power.
    Glory in Victory: Get rid of the 10% increased incoming melee damage modifier. Increase the healing and/or increase the duration and/or increase the HoT frequency.
    Blade Toss: Should dismount when hit in the back.
    Devastating Strike: The -50% incoming healing shouldn’t be able to get resisted. Make the attack difficult to get BPE’d when the target is under 20% morale.
    Upper Hand: Add a -evade rating to it.
    Hamstring: Add a small amount of damage to the skill, comparable to Sundering Blow’s damage.
    Sundering Blow: Change the -x Armour Value into a flat –x% Mitigation Value.
    Serration: Target takes 15% more bleed damage for 30s. Serration tiers Thrash up and will refresh the duration of Thrash.
    Severing Strike: Short knockdown (3s) when both Sundering Blow and Upper Hand are up. Needs a CD increase then though, 20s -> 30s.
    Jagged Cut: Increase AoE to 180° frontal (Opposed to the current ~90° frontal cone it is now).
    Mutilation: Reduce power cost to be in line with Jagged Cut.
    Thrash: Reduce CD to 20s. Let Thrash tier down on expiration. Giving in an initial and expiration tick would greatly increase the bleed’s effectiveness. Allow Serration to tier Thrash up to the next tier, to the max of 3.
    Wrath: Total rework. Get rid of the healing and power restoration on skill hit. Turn it into a berserker/rage mode for Reaver, focusing solely on killing his target ignoring everything else.

    Increases skill damage by x%. Your attacks become more difficult to BPE. You are less susceptible to CC effects. You are unable to BPE.
    - OR -
    Sets movement speed to 100%. Increases skill damage by x%. Your attacks become more difficult to BPE. You are unable to BPE.
    - OR -
    Increases skill damage by x%. Heal x% of damage done. Your attacks become more difficult to BPE. You are unable to BPE.

    Impale: Let the additional hits from bleeds devastate as well, if possible. Make the additional hits not be tied to the initial hit in order to critical or devastate. Making the skill less bursty but more reliable in the long run.

    Class Trait Changes
    Enhanced Blade Toss: Dismounts from any angle.
    Quick Strikes: Massive increase in finesse. Multiply it by a factor of 100. (Unless more changes to base stats and/or finesse gets re-added to BFP then lower this value).
    Enhanced Upper Hand: Armor buff duration increased to 30s. Shares armor buff to fellows. Possibly an AoE debuff?
    Enhanced Glory in Victory: Get rid of the 10% increased incoming melee damage on the skill, and then get rid of the trait.
    Enhanced Hamstring: Add a modifier called ‘’stagger’’ that increases enemies attack and induction duration. Each subsequent attack with hamstring, while the movement debuff is still up, will increase attack and induction duration by 3% up to a maximum of 15%. Expires when out of combat.

    Racial Trait Changes (Not Reaver specific)
    All racial traits for all Creep races just really need to be looked at. They didn’t get scaled when the Mordor stat changes hit.
    Front Line Fodder: Increase BPE values by half of the current values.
    Flayer of Flesh: Increase in mastery by 10 fold and double the critical rating.
    Warrior Against the Deep: Increase tactical mitigation by 10 fold.
    Rage of the Misbegotten: Double the critical rating.
    Tireless Warrior: Needs higher IC morale and power regen. Multiplying current numbers by 10 wouldn’t hurt.

  2. #2
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    You've got some pretty good suggestions overall. I think that if all of them went through as you suggested reavers would do too much damage, so I would say some of the increases are unnecessary (like initial bleed hits - not needed).

    I think Impale damage would have to be reduced, because reavers would gain more consistent damage, so they wouldn't need crazy burst on top of that. Personally, I would propose the following for Wrath:

    Reducing incoming damage by 20%, and your critical strike chance is increased by 20%. Snares cannot reduce your movement speed below 80%.

    One additional suggestion would be to give Severing Strike a 5s duration -20% inc healing debuff on the target. Just something minor to help out with the crazy freep healing.

  3. #3
    So, keeping in mind that (crossing fingers) it's likely that crit mag will be nerfed and overall damage will be buffed, I don't think the discrepancy between Reavers and other DPS classes will be that big (also keep in mind Finesse has/is being buffed as well). Also I'm a supporter of slightly lower DPS/Heals across the board, slower fights.


    I think that being said, I'll ignore the overall % damage boosts you are asking for, and some thoughts on a few others:

    1. Charge is fine as it is. Resilience is certainly inconsistent (part of that probably has to do with when they toyed with immediates), and needs to be fixed.

    2. I love the Upperhand change you suggested. Screw Burglars

    3. Sundering blow changes is good. Shouldn't be a big mit debuff- 3-4% tops, but make it mits.

    4. I don't think Reaver needs CC. I think the thought you put into Severing Strike is neat, but imo not the way to go.

    5. Thrash CD reduction is needed for sure.

    6. I like the second suggestion for Wrath.

    7. Enhanced Hamstring isn't needed. The corruption is fine as it is.
    Are you watching closely?

  4. #4
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    Thanks for the replies guys. Kind of expected the two of you to be the first ones lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    You've got some pretty good suggestions overall. I think that if all of them went through as you suggested reavers would do too much damage, so I would say some of the increases are unnecessary (like initial bleed hits - not needed).
    Yeah, like I said I'm mostly likely biased, and that's why it needs to be discussed. I'm just throwing out everything I could think of, but by no means am I implying that every single change should be pushed through. These are merely ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I think Impale damage would have to be reduced, because reavers would gain more consistent damage, so they wouldn't need crazy burst on top of that.
    I was leaning towards lowering the built in critical multiplier on Impale. Also, like I suggested (if it's even possible) allow the additional hits from Impale to crit regardless of if the base hit crit or not. It would then roll crit chance up to 5 times instead of once, removing the all or nothing aspect of the skill and spread out the damage some more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Personally, I would propose the following for Wrath:

    Reducing incoming damage by 20%, and your critical strike chance is increased by 20%. Snares cannot reduce your movement speed below 80%.

    One additional suggestion would be to give Severing Strike a 5s duration -20% inc healing debuff on the target. Just something minor to help out with the crazy freep healing.
    Severing Strike really could go any way currently. I very rarely use it, only under specific circumstances. It's really not worth using for DPS right now since any other skill will do more damage. I kinda wanted to put some form of CC on it but on a long CD. I do realise it could be a very OP skill and thus opted for a longer CD and the requirements of both Sundering and Upper Hand being up. Since Upper Hand can be potted there's a way to prevent it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylence View Post
    So, keeping in mind that (crossing fingers) it's likely that crit mag will be nerfed and overall damage will be buffed, I don't think the discrepancy between Reavers and other DPS classes will be that big (also keep in mind Finesse has/is being buffed as well). Also I'm a supporter of slightly lower DPS/Heals across the board, slower fights.

    I think that being said, I'll ignore the overall % damage boosts you are asking for, and some thoughts on a few others:
    I probably wasn't too clear about why I added the % damage boosts in this post. My goal was to get skills closer together. It's not meant as a hard % I want to see in game asap. My idea was to lower damage discrepancy between skills and bleeds and then, if damage is too much or not enough (which is very hard to say right now without any point of reference), scale all the skills with a single % value. This way all skills remain relatively similar in dps to each other, but the overall DPS output can get balanced out. Currently, if Reaver damage got scaled with a single value, certain skill would still lack while others would probably be over the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylence View Post
    1. Charge is fine as it is. Resilience is certainly inconsistent (part of that probably has to do with when they toyed with immediates), and needs to be fixed.

    2. I love the Upperhand change you suggested. Screw Burglars

    3. Sundering blow changes is good. Shouldn't be a big mit debuff- 3-4% tops, but make it mits.

    4. I don't think Reaver needs CC. I think the thought you put into Severing Strike is neat, but imo not the way to go.

    5. Thrash CD reduction is needed for sure.

    6. I like the second suggestion for Wrath.

    7. Enhanced Hamstring isn't needed. The corruption is fine as it is.
    1. It was more like a sure why not change.
    2. Just seeing a -evade added to upper hand would already make my day
    3. Sundering Blow still remains somewhat of a debatable point for me. It's either gonna be what Sundering was pre-mordor, barely does anything. Or way over the top. Should it only lower Orc-Craft? All phys? Both phys and tact?
    4. Kinda answered that already when replying to Giliodor.
    5. For the sake of Impale...
    6. I had to think long about what to do with Wrath. I ended up with some form of CB/CBR combo. I'm still not too sure about it. I discussed it with quite a few people already, and it still very much remains a point of discussion. But everyone agrees that the way Wrath currently works is not the way to go.
    7. I think the r15 trait is kind of meh right now IMO. I wanted to spice it up a bit by providing a new mechanic. It takes a while to get this thing tiered up, at least 32s when used the moment the CD is off and assuming the slow doesn't get removed.

    ~Urundus

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Urundus View Post
    I probably wasn't too clear about why I added the % damage boosts in this post. My goal was to get skills closer together. It's not meant as a hard % I want to see in game asap. My idea was to lower damage discrepancy between skills and bleeds and then, if damage is too much or not enough (which is very hard to say right now without any point of reference), scale all the skills with a single % value. This way all skills remain relatively similar in dps to each other, but the overall DPS output can get balanced out. Currently, if Reaver damage got scaled with a single value, certain skill would still lack while others would probably be over the top.
    Absolutely. I'd like to see the class move to a more DoT based, less burst based position, and your buffs certainly move it that way. Ravage, Gut Punch, Severing Strike, and (holy cow) Mutilation definitely all need specific buffs. Worth mentioning that (at some point) I had suggested Serration's function to spread Lacerate onto 3 additional targets. What do you think?
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Absolutely. I'd like to see the class move to a more DoT based, less burst based position, and your buffs certainly move it that way. Ravage, Gut Punch, Severing Strike, and (holy cow) Mutilation definitely all need specific buffs. Worth mentioning that (at some point) I had suggested Serration's function to spread Lacerate onto 3 additional targets. What do you think?
    Mutilation definitely needs a big buff. The thing has like 2/3rds of the tooltip value of Jagged Cut/Lacerate and also only ticks 5 times. On top of that it has a huge power cost and thus you only apply it before you Impale in a 1v1 scenario. For a bleed that requires you to be r10, it's pretty depressing.

    Initially my thought about Serration was the same as yours, let it spread Lacerate. But I wasn't too fond of that. Later the idea of Serration refreshing bleed duration came into my mind, but with both Jagged Cut and Lacerate having such a short CD and Mutilation being off CD when the bleed ends it would only really be there for Thrash (if it didn't get potted). One thing led to another and I came up with Serration tiering up Savage Wound (Thrash) and refreshing it's duration. Then allowing Savage Wound to tier down upon expiration would make for a rather good combo. If then the damage of Savage Wound got buffed up to the point it should be, it would be able to put out a lot of damage if one does not remove it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urundus View Post
    Yeah, like I said I'm mostly likely biased, and that's why it needs to be discussed. I'm just throwing out everything I could think of, but by no means am I implying that every single change should be pushed through. These are merely ideas.
    Makes sense. I like your ideas in general, though.

    I was leaning towards lowering the built in critical multiplier on Impale. Also, like I suggested (if it's even possible) allow the additional hits from Impale to crit regardless of if the base hit crit or not. It would then roll crit chance up to 5 times instead of once, removing the all or nothing aspect of the skill and spread out the damage some more.
    I like the idea of less dependency on crits. First things first, though, crit magnitude should be removed from corruptions, and base damage should be increased, to compensate. Perhaps reducing the crit magnitude some more after that would be fine, instead of lowing the damage of the skill altogether. I would indeed say that non-crit Impales are currently almost underwhelming, so I could get behind your idea.

    Severing Strike really could go any way currently. I very rarely use it, only under specific circumstances. It's really not worth using for DPS right now since any other skill will do more damage. I kinda wanted to put some form of CC on it but on a long CD. I do realise it could be a very OP skill and thus opted for a longer CD and the requirements of both Sundering and Upper Hand being up. Since Upper Hand can be potted there's a way to prevent it.
    I personally think that reavers shouldn't have access to any CC other than disarm. It doesn't really fit the class well. That said, something has to be changed about the skill for it to be used, and make the rotation more interesting. I would opt for a healing debuff, because there aren't so many of those even on other classes, while there are plenty of stuns/dazes/knockdowns.

    I probably wasn't too clear about why I added the % damage boosts in this post. My goal was to get skills closer together. It's not meant as a hard % I want to see in game asap. My idea was to lower damage discrepancy between skills and bleeds and then, if damage is too much or not enough (which is very hard to say right now without any point of reference), scale all the skills with a single % value. This way all skills remain relatively similar in dps to each other, but the overall DPS output can get balanced out. Currently, if Reaver damage got scaled with a single value, certain skill would still lack while others would probably be over the top.

    6. I had to think long about what to do with Wrath. I ended up with some form of CB/CBR combo. I'm still not too sure about it. I discussed it with quite a few people already, and it still very much remains a point of discussion. But everyone agrees that the way Wrath currently works is not the way to go.
    The current implementation of Wrath as a self healing skill is pretty lackluster, to be sure. It makes reavers very tanky in 1v1/1v2 scenarios, while providing little benefit in a group/raid scenario. That's why I thought a damage reduction would be a good middle ground. It wouldn't make Wrath overpowered in 1v1s, and it would still be valuable in groups. Reavers definitely need a little more mobility with how prevalent blue line hunters are, and tying that mobility to Wrath seems like a good idea. Some form of a damage buff to round it off would be ideal.

    That said, reavers would really struggle with power if they removed the power restore from Wrath. Changing the power cost of Mutilation would be a start, but I would say some other skills need a reduction as well, or higher ICPR is required (only changing Time-Out isn't enough, since it's not reliable).

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    That said, reavers would really struggle with power if they removed the power restore from Wrath. Changing the power cost of Mutilation would be a start, but I would say some other skills need a reduction as well, or higher ICPR is required (only changing Time-Out isn't enough, since it's not reliable).
    Just want to touch on the power issue's as well, since you brought it up. Currently, as of the latest Beta, creeps got a massive ICPR buff and I we really don't have any power issues any more. On Beta I went all out (without Wrath) against a mini to test some DPS for like 10 minutes and I had 0 problems with power. But since everything on Beta is still subject to change, addressing the power issues that reaver can have is a good thing.
    If we do lose the boost in ICPR (which I doubt we will), lowering power costs on some skills or simply increasing our total power pool would be a quick and easy fix.

  9. #9

    Fast Passes or Remake?

    This is indeed all good stuff and the Reaver needs some love. Did the scope of the project change, though, from fast passes to adjust basic stat tables? It would be great if it did, but I’d hate to see the base patch not get pushed out quickly.

    Aak/Cor

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corwelleon View Post
    Did the scope of the project change, though, from fast passes to adjust basic stat tables?
    No. I'm almost certain we won't see any of this in any patch notes. I just like theorising about it.

  11. #11

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    No. I'm almost certain we won't see any of this in any patch notes. I just like theorising about it.
    Gotcha. I enjoyed reading your theory!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corwelleon View Post
    This is indeed all good stuff and the Reaver needs some love. Did the scope of the project change, though, from fast passes to adjust basic stat tables? It would be great if it did, but I’d hate to see the base patch not get pushed out quickly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    No. I'm almost certain we won't see any of this in any patch notes. I just like theorising about it.
    Yes, AFAIK we're still down to just fast passes.
    But I'd rather just have this out there with the hope someone does see it, and maybe has some time to change a couple numbers here and there...

  13. #13
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    Just gonna bump this up with some comments on the Beta #5 changes.

    No changes to Reaver specifically, only a few racial traits got a small buff and some changes to base stats.

    Flayer of Flesh: Mastery increased from 920 to 3182.
    Rage of the Misbegotten: Critical Rating increased from 3392 to 10180.
    Warrior Against the Deep: Tactical Mitigation increased from 818 to 2544.

    As far as damage goes. No changes to base damage. Critical Corruptions got a nerf. Currently, slotting Mastery instead of Critical, is better for DPS. Which it honestly should be. But at the same time also feels limited. We only have so many slots to fill and Critical Corruptions are still needed in order to cap Crit chance.

 

 

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