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  1. #1

    Why we, a raiders kinship, will not take part in the Abyss of Mordath progression

    For the first time, the members of Unquale are not exactly thrilled about an upcoming raid in LotRO and will most likely not put in any effort to take it down.

    We have always been in the past, and while we are not exactly on par with the world's top kinships we always gave our best and have goten our share of successes : Original Challengers of Saruman and Gothmog, world 2nd for Flight to the Lonely Mountain, world 5th for Throne of the Dread Terror.
    And yet unless things change drastically from what was unveiled in Bullroarer (U21.3 build 3) we will not take part in any progression race for the upcoming raid. We might do the raid or we might not, but either way we will not take part in any race, we will not publish any videos and will not speak about our potential achievements.



    The reason is very simple : the current system greatly favors a group of players willing to take part in a strongly P2W scheme. A race that favors players willing to spend real money is simply unfair to those who will not (be it on principle or because they can't afford it) and as such has no value or meaning. I won't even elaborate on the fact that Mordor itself was a pretty expensive expension pack.




    To elaborate on the P2W part though :

    According to what is seen right now on Bullroarer, two things will be possible from day one when the raid comes out :

    - Trading of incomparable ilvl 337 gear (armour & jewelry) for ash. This basically makes the Mordor instance (CoS & DoN) gear obsolete. Even worse, it means that attempting to take on the new raid with the ilvl 330 gear you farmed (or are farming) is gimping yourself, as there already is a much better option available. It should also be noted that the stats on this 337 gear is exactly the same as that acquired from the T2 raid tokens. The only difference is set bonuses, which are pretty underwhelming for the most part.
    The ash price for said gear would not even be the heart of the issue. But the fact that said price is extremely high gives this a highly P2W aspect. For 4 armour pieces, a cloak and 6 jewels (the last 2 can be crafted) you will need 20,400 ash per toon. That is not counting swap pieces of course. Double the price if you need the equip an alt or a second specialization. As every rescpectable raider knows that a raiding group relies on members that can play more than one class/role, it actually is part of the issue.
    So if you want your character(s) to be in their best shape to rapidly take on the raid T2/T2C, you'll obviously need so much ash that buying Black Keys from the Store will basically be required as there will be no way to gather so much ash through any in-game activity that I know of.

    - In case you were not sure that opening Gorgoroth lottery boxes could give you an edge in the Abyss of Mordath : said lootboxes can net you gear that drops from T2/T2C. Just take a look at this from the Bullroarer thread. So once again, BiS gear from lootboxes. Don't tell me it's a bug, dev's did not put these in the lottery boxes' loot tables by mistake, they cannot be that clueless.
    Gabrediel, Original Challenger of Sarouman | Gabramir, Original Challenger of Gothmog

    Unquale - Sirannon [FR]

  2. #2
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    It is indeed sad that lotro is going into this direction, I doubt they will change that, after all they just want lotro turned into massive P2W.
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  3. #3
    Yeah, earth to the devs... if you're going to have a subscription model and ask your players to pay $15 a month, then treat those players well... instead you're forcing them to also fork over even more money via the contiguous cash-store model that was supposed to be consigned to f2p players who didn't want to sub.

    I wonder what new players think when they realize they have to spend well over $100 just to get all the expansions, on top of paying a subscription, on top of micro transactions, on top of the insane grind in front of them, just to raid. I'd say NOPE, i'll find a different game.


    Unf***yourselves SSG!
    Illydros Squanto Ulricson Saridas Gap

  4. #4
    I honestly hope that there is not even going to be an "Original Challenger" title attached to this raid due to how awful it appears progression will be.

    As you rightly pointed out there is a whole lot of pay-to-win tied up in the lootboxes and ash barters here. When U21.3 drops we're going to be seeing certain players spamming the store or just hitting the vendors for raid gear with ash they earnt on the lead up to raid launch. In this situation your wallet does offer you a pretty tangible advantage over other players and that certainly takes some of the joy out of the event.

    This raid also appears to have a more notable issue with progression and that is raid locks. Whilst I will admit that I have not fully explored the new system it appears that characters are not locked out of completing a boss fight more than once a week. Whilst this seems like a great step forward to some (essentially allowing those with few characters to help other players) it does present a large problem for progression races and Original Challenger titles.

    LOTRO bestows the Original Challenger title to the first group on a server to clear every single challenge in a single instance. The original challenger bestowal is not bound to the players in any way. Since you don't get locked out of bosses under this new lock system you can potentially just spend the first week of raid launch attacking the instance over and over again with the exact same people and characters until you finally manage to complete it all in one go. There is no real consequence for failing a challenge, you just restart the instance if things go wrong. In the old system raid progression was a measured and drawn out affair; each week you would give the bosses a couple of attempts and if you got locked you would be forced to wait until the reset before trying again. We've gone from a system of measured patience to a system which effectively encourages you to call a week off work sick so that you can blitz your way to first place.

    I honestly don't want to take part in such a race. During Throne I loved watching the leaderboard to see who made it one boss further each week, Abyss looks set to squash that progression cycle into a matter of days.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    I honestly hope that there is not even going to be an "Original Challenger" title attached to this raid due to how awful it appears progression will be.
    Agreed. It will be being so long on bullroarer that no reason to have that title available.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    I honestly hope that there is not even going to be an "Original Challenger" title attached to this raid due to how awful it appears progression will be.
    I agree with everything you said.
    Unless something changes dramatically , racing is pointless.
    There is no skill / teamwork contest. Pay to win gives too much of an unfair advantage...
    I guess we have a couple more Betas left , but i have little faith something will change since there are currently too many things wrong with the direction they headed.

    I can sense a ''clear once and retire'' hype : D

  7. #7
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    The way that everything - and I mean literally, absolutely everything - in Mordo is geared towards pushing you into the store and making it impossible to gear even one (let alone multiple) character is really getting on my nerves.

    I'm interested in clearing the raid, but the insanity-tier grind to get geared has been taken to a whole new (P2W) level, with absolute disregard to those who may wish to play the game having paid only their mandatory $15 a month and not a further $200 for P2W.
    #15skills

  8. #8
    Here's another thing. The tentative raid release week is the same week star wars comes out. Like I thought it was quite odd that the 1-instance cluster came out on the day shadow of war came out (but at least it gave me something to do when I was tired of farming seregost).

    Cordovan said the raid was planned for early/mid december. I heard a GM say that they had a tentative date they were planning to hit. Nothing to indicate the drop was gonna be delayed.

    I think we can all agree if the raid dropped on Christmas, or some major holiday, some people would have issues with it being on vacation time. Not saying that it's a big deal, but a significant part of people would be affected. But if the game is geared towards young people of different ages, don't you think it would be bad to release it the same weekend as Star Wars? Poor scheduling = less interest in 'who's first'.

    Proof it will come out week of star wars release:

    1) Early/Mid December sounds like before the 15th (middle), so suppose it's 10-13th.
    2) They do not do bullroarer weekends right before instance drops. There's nothing to give 'feedback' if there is not 'feedback review' time. The weekend before update isn't about fixing, it's about packing it up and moving it out.
    3) Because of #2, it's not this week

    So best bet is next week (assuming no delays). Even if it's released on a Tuesday, any sort of raid progression gets knocked out by those who practiced all month on BR. Then once the weekend resets hit in, Star Wars will be the weekend event for everyone else plus raiding if they can. Lol.

  9. #9
    Going to see a 2.5 hour movie is not really a "weekend event."

  10. #10
    Oh I don't mean weekend event. Just saying it'd be harder to try to coordinate 12 people to watch it at certain times so that person A doesn't watch it early while person B watches it late, etc. All that to say I think the login times for that specific day will be spotty. Definitely not 50%, but even if it was 90% online compared to before that still affects one raider out of each raid group. That's the downside of people who bought tickets about a month in advance versus finding out the raid will drop a couple days in advance.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeoBasilisk View Post
    Going to see a 2.5 hour movie is not really a "weekend event."
    You forget that the most re-watch all former episodes and after that they go to the cinema.

    But back to the topic thus p2w aspect and endless grind has to be reduced enormously / completely.
    For this stop f2p too and you will have enough (constant =money left for further developments.

  12. #12
    In all fairness, any raid that's been tested so many weekends on BR doesn't need an 'Original Challenger of' title, that title should be reserved for things not open on a preview server to work out the mechanics before the instance comes out.
    The store is a way of life now, we'll either gets used to it or we won't. Hopefully enough of us complaining about it might wake them up, but I'm not sure it can.
    Founding Member of the Vocal Minority....

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    The way that everything - and I mean literally, absolutely everything - in Mordo is geared towards pushing you into the store and making it impossible to gear even one (let alone multiple) character is really getting on my nerves.

    I'm interested in clearing the raid, but the insanity-tier grind to get geared has been taken to a whole new (P2W) level, with absolute disregard to those who may wish to play the game having paid only their mandatory $15 a month and not a further $200 for P2W.
    The worrisome part of this whole Store focused Expansion is that SSG might perceive player actions as disinterest. I have played every raid on T2C to date upon release. I won't participate in Abyss simply because of the store and way that gearing/content was created for Mordor. I would hate for this to be the same opinion of many raiding kins and as a result SSG see reduced participation numbers and stop developing Raids/Instance content because of it.

    I thoroughly enjoyed Throne of the Dread Terror and would love to have more instance clusters but I feel that if SSG doesn't get enough people playing this instance cluster they will shift to a more landscape based development scheme, similar to the long raiding drought we had after Rohan.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Murtanion View Post
    The worrisome part of this whole Store focused Expansion is that SSG might perceive player actions as disinterest. I have played every raid on T2C to date upon release. I won't participate in Abyss simply because of the store and way that gearing/content was created for Mordor. I would hate for this to be the same opinion of many raiding kins and as a result SSG see reduced participation numbers and stop developing Raids/Instance content because of it.

    I thoroughly enjoyed Throne of the Dread Terror and would love to have more instance clusters but I feel that if SSG doesn't get enough people playing this instance cluster they will shift to a more landscape based development scheme, similar to the long raiding drought we had after Rohan.
    Quite a valid concern, as far as I can tell.
    SSG: I love this game and intend to keep giving you money. Please remove keys from the LOTRO store.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murtanion View Post
    The worrisome part of this whole Store focused Expansion is that SSG might perceive player actions as disinterest. I have played every raid on T2C to date upon release. I won't participate in Abyss simply because of the store and way that gearing/content was created for Mordor. I would hate for this to be the same opinion of many raiding kins and as a result SSG see reduced participation numbers and stop developing Raids/Instance content because of it.

    I thoroughly enjoyed Throne of the Dread Terror and would love to have more instance clusters but I feel that if SSG doesn't get enough people playing this instance cluster they will shift to a more landscape based development scheme, similar to the long raiding drought we had after Rohan.
    Which is truly sad, group play especially instances and raids should be the main reason to play mmorpgs.
    For playing solo there are a lot better games.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    For playing solo there are a lot better games.
    Name one better game to play through the whole lotr story and discover such amounts of middleearth-landscape solo, please.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Anführer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  17. #17
    Talk about pissing in the wind.

    SSG would rather have rather have people who pay to win than people who don't; they aren't running a non-profit. The whales that pay to win or pay to have maxxed LIs 10 alts, 100 wardrobes, and then solo and do FIs finance the game. This is content that is done and that a relatively large portion of the people do regardless. I don't blame them for turning up the heat on the cost for the more expensive content to develop and maintain. Those development hours need to pay off at the same rate. Ultimately, in this space, your principles and standards are your own and aren't engraved in stone tablets. SSG, I'm sure, has a treasure trove of data from the store and makes decisions based on spending habits and how they correlate with content, playtime, retention and recidivism.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Name one better game to play through the whole lotr story and discover such amounts of middleearth-landscape solo, please.
    Well it's not one game but just look at this list.
    http://www.gamona.de/der-herr-der-ringe
    With all this games, ignoring the listed lotro updates, you've everything and for the most better grafic and game play.
    I don't have anything vs the story etc from lotro but as a MMOrP they have to be focused on groupcontent this is why you play such a game everything else you get from other games.

  19. #19
    I'm seriously hoping they wont have an Original Challenger title for this particular raid. So many beta tests, a complete new lock system and p2w advantages is pretty ridiculous.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Well it's not one game but just look at this list.
    http://www.gamona.de/der-herr-der-ringe
    Ok, lets check that list:

    Mordors shadow has nothing to do with lotr as it plays much earlier.
    lotro addon
    MOBA
    lotro addon
    koop game thats frustrating solo (according to comments)
    lotro addon
    plays 15 years after lotr
    action-strategy and not rpg
    lotro addon
    strategy game
    lotro
    not related to lotr, just a middleearth-magic game
    strategy game
    strategy game
    "Der Herr der Ringe: Das dritte Zeitalter" actually sounds like it fits... but seems not to be available for PC, just for consoles
    only book 3
    only book 2 and only consoles
    "Der Herr der Ringe: Die Gefährten" sounds like a fit

    so unless I did a mistake, there is one RPG/Adventure available for PC that is about lotr at all, while all others are just playing in middleearth in completely different areas or times.
    And... I think I played it and it was like 5 hours of fun and then completed. The leveldesign was linear, short, simple and there was nothing to explore.

    -> anyone that wants to play through the whole story of lotr clearly runs best with playing lotro. Unless he wants to play the heroes themselves and never wants to look left or right, then its "Der Herr der Ringe: Die Gefährten"

    And btw: your point strongly backfires: there are much better MMOs in terms of groupcontent, balance, content actually getting tested by devs etc

    lotro is not a MMO with groupcontent that plays in middleearth and allows people to see the whole lotr story from a different pov
    but a MMORPG with much of everything and even for soloplayers the best choice to live through the whole story and get lotr feeling. So it cant just focus on the part that you prefer.
    Last edited by Oelle; Dec 06 2017 at 09:26 AM.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Ok, lets check that list:

    Mordors shadow has nothing to do with lotr as it plays much earlier.
    lotro addon
    MOBA
    lotro addon
    koop game thats frustrating solo (according to comments)
    lotro addon
    plays 15 years after lotr
    action-strategy and not rpg
    lotro addon
    strategy game
    lotro
    not related to lotr, just a middleearth-magic game
    strategy game
    strategy game
    "Der Herr der Ringe: Das dritte Zeitalter" actually sounds like it fits... but seems not to be available for PC, just for consoles
    only book 3
    only book 2 and only consoles
    "Der Herr der Ringe: Die Gefährten" sounds like a fit

    so unless I did a mistake, there is one RPG/Adventure available for PC that is about lotr at all, while all others are just playing in middleearth in completely different areas or times.
    And... I think I played it and it was like 5 hours of fun and then completed. The leveldesign was linear, short, simple and there was nothing to explore.

    -> anyone that wants to play through the whole story of lotr clearly runs best with playing lotro. Unless he wants to play the heroes themselves and never wants to look left or right, then its "Der Herr der Ringe: Die Gefährten"

    And btw: your point strongly backfires: there are much better MMOs in terms of groupcontent, balance, content actually getting tested by devs etc

    lotro is not a MMO with groupcontent that plays in middleearth and allows people to see the whole lotr story from a different pov
    but a MMORPG with much of everything and even for soloplayers the best choice to live through the whole story and get lotr feeling. So it cant just focus on the part that you prefer.
    Well it doesn't changed that an MMO has to be more focused on groupcontent for anything else you don't need to play an MMO with other players which disturbs you doing your quest, cause they collect the item in front of you and you've to wait or keep ll the mops you've to kill, especially hunters with their everytime oneshots just bzw passing, before you reach them.
    No you take this torture for the groupcontent at the end level which we've to less except the non challenging scaled instances. Of they would make them double or triple as hard with useful loot OK, but his isn't given

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    but a MMORPG with much of everything and even for soloplayers the best choice to live through the whole story and get lotr feeling.
    LOTRO should probably be redefined as an Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Experience rather than game at this point. The actual gameplay mechanics have mostly been ignored in favour of just making new landscapes and creating paid RNG situations.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Agreed. It will be being so long on bullroarer that no reason to have that title available.
    I'm not sure it would be that different. According to some sources, a large proportion of people who tested former raids on Palantir were all part of the same kins on live, who were among those to beat the raids the quickest. If anything, opening the internal testing to bullroarer dilutes this advantage and makes the race fair.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Constrictions View Post
    I'm not sure it would be that different. According to some sources, a large proportion of people who tested former raids on Palantir were all part of the same kins on live, who were among those to beat the raids the quickest. If anything, opening the internal testing to bullroarer dilutes this advantage and makes the race fair.
    Sure. More fair than if only one small group knew the mechanics. Still stupid though. No one should no anything about the mechanics on release to have a fair competition.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Sure. More fair than if only one small group knew the mechanics. Still stupid though. No one should no anything about the mechanics on release to have a fair competition.
    And this has nothing to do with reality. Will you tell WoW doesn't have fair competition on raiding because Blizzard also preview raids on beta servers? Go tell this to Method and Exorsus.

    I really wonder how people don't understand that in modern MMO world beta is part of progression and competition.

 

 
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