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  1. #1

    Can you remove cdg from burgs completely please

    Cdg is a joke to the lotro community, why would you even think it is a good idea to give burgs a skill which does around 100-120k damage if you dont want people to ragequit this game consider it. Burgs still have many ways to dps like other classes does and removing cdg is not gonna make a real difference for a burg in pve. I believe it is a good thing to do for the longevity for the game itself.
    Last edited by Serdarortac; Nov 11 2017 at 05:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    Believe it or not Burglars have undergone a significant nerf already when they introduced the trait line system. Before that they could do almost anything red, blue and yellow burgs can do now. Anyway maybe post this on creep forum side since this is really a creep issue, just saying

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Believe it or not Burglars have undergone a significant nerf already when they introduced the trait line system. Before that they could do almost anything red, blue and yellow burgs can do now. Anyway maybe post this on creep forum side since this is really a creep issue, just saying
    To my knowledge, Burglars have never been able to consistently do the burst damage they are capable of now.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Believe it or not Burglars have undergone a significant nerf already when they introduced the trait line system. Before that they could do almost anything red, blue and yellow burgs can do now. Anyway maybe post this on creep forum side since this is really a creep issue, just saying
    hmm.. interesting. so you are saying cdg is a essential part of burg dps in pve. I think you need to reconsider your rotation my friend. the point is in a 6 man or a raid burgs will be able to play either case. 3mans are not designed for single target dps classes anyway.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Believe it or not Burglars have undergone a significant nerf already when they introduced the trait line system. Before that they could do almost anything red, blue and yellow burgs can do now. Anyway maybe post this on creep forum side since this is really a creep issue, just saying
    I would argue burglar is at the moment strongest its ever been from buffing standpoint and one of strongest its been from stable dps standpoint and from burst standpoint 1/2nd strongest with only 105 cap rivalling current burst.

    Lets be honest, making cdg irrelevant wont have any significant effect on pve, since its not significant rotation skill.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Believe it or not Burglars have undergone a significant nerf already when they introduced the trait line system. Before that they could do almost anything red, blue and yellow burgs can do now. Anyway maybe post this on creep forum side since this is really a creep issue, just saying
    When Helms Deep hit live, Burgs were broken af. the Trait trees made them ridiculous there were many terribad Burgs that raced through the rank in the Moors, that had been incapable of doing anything before the trait trees (Burgs were always very strong). Then Turbine started nerfing them cause they where such a meme. But Burgs are still pretty strong. It's just that the Hunter is outperforming every other dps class.

  7. #7
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    Actually burg dps compared to hunter is generally lower on average so they are increasingly not being viewed as a dps class anymore by some. I know that if you nerf their dps capabilities anymore, I wouldn't ever be looking for a burg for dps in group anymore. They have their uses in groups for their crowd control, but lore masters are better than that. They have become a sort of swiss army knife that serves multiple purposes in a pinch but wouldn't be anyone's first choice to do anything in PVE land. Maybe you should find a way to buff your crit defense rather than nerf a class that has already become obsolete to some.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Actually burg dps compared to hunter is generally lower on average so they are increasingly not being viewed as a dps class anymore by some. I know that if you nerf their dps capabilities anymore, I wouldn't ever be looking for a burg for dps in group anymore. They have their uses in groups for their crowd control, but lore masters are better than that. They have become a sort of swiss army knife that serves multiple purposes in a pinch but wouldn't be anyone's first choice to do anything in PVE land. Maybe you should find a way to buff your crit defense rather than nerf a class that has already become obsolete to some.
    That is 100% wrong.

    Speaking as a main burg i can tell you that red burgs st dps is really high(in Long fights on rk Level and Close behind hunter and on short fights above rk Level and short behind hunter burst).
    A burgler is usefull in so many ways,yellow blue,blue yellow,yellow red,red-blue,red-yellow in a raid/6man and since seregost is so easy you can even go there yellow and be the healing part.
    cdg is a broken skill that should have never been implemented.Its not important in pve since burg dps is coming from dots to over 50% and in pvp ist jsut broken.

  9. #9
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    Nothing you are saying would change the fact that I would prefer a hunter in my group for dps to a burg. Anything you do to reduce burg dps only makes it worse. But you are certainly entitled to your position. It doesn't change the fact that hunter dps is higher.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Nothing you are saying would change the fact that I would prefer a hunter in my group for dps to a burg. Anything you do to reduce burg dps only makes it worse. But you are certainly entitled to your position. It doesn't change the fact that hunter dps is higher.
    Much argument, such logic. This is the case compared to all the classes, doesnt mean they are bad...

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Nothing you are saying would change the fact that I would prefer a hunter in my group for dps to a burg. Anything you do to reduce burg dps only makes it worse. But you are certainly entitled to your position. It doesn't change the fact that hunter dps is higher.
    I really dont understand why you are only talking about 3 mans, for a 6 man you are neglecting the fact that they have a skill called reveal weakness. Cdg is a skill that isnt necessary for pve and breaks pvp. So why are you still talking?

  12. #12
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    Removing CdG would just be a temporary fix. The class would remain overpowered at its core, but now in a different way. Cunning Attack bleeds are equally ridiculous, and their normal rotational abilities are definitely over the top from a PvP perspective as well.

    Perhaps you don't realise it because most burgs only come out of stealth after pressing CdG, or don't come out of stealth at all, but simply removing CdG wouldn't even begin to solve the problem at its core.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Removing CdG would just be a temporary fix. The class would remain overpowered at its core, but now in a different way. Cunning Attack bleeds are equally ridiculous, and their normal rotational abilities are definitely over the top from a PvP perspective as well.

    Perhaps you don't realise it because most burgs only come out of stealth after pressing CdG, or don't come out of stealth at all, but simply removing CdG wouldn't even begin to solve the problem at its core.
    ofc, if you ask me ca should be nerfed but positional attacks should be buffed to encourage more skilled gameplay. but as far as I know asking too much from ssg never works so at least I hoped they would remove cdg it would be a big help from pvp side.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Believe it or not Burglars have undergone a significant nerf already when they introduced the trait line system. Before that they could do almost anything red, blue and yellow burgs can do now.
    I am going to... not believe it. I don't know why... Maybe 6 years without forum posts. Maybe imbued LI. Maybe Feb. 2007. Maybe whatever.
    Just sayin.
    ¯\_(?)_/¯

  15. #15
    Burg was more a bane to creep before trait trees were introduced, cdg aside and poor oneshotter style game play, you have it easier nowdays...

    Knives out reflecg dmg was suicide for attacking mellee creep
    Enrage would make a BA lose ability to fire majority of their skills
    Startling twist/cj would stun lock crep until dead
    Counter defense leaving no bpe on your crep
    Mischievous glee with swap bag heal legacy counteracting most crep dmg

    The list goes on.....

    Gate cdg behind crit chain skills but dont agree on removal all together...it was the one decent red line burg gained with traittrees but lost so much versatility by taking away most of our tricks and hiding them in yellow and blu lines
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serdarortac View Post
    I really dont understand why you are only talking about 3 mans, for a 6 man you are neglecting the fact that they have a skill called reveal weakness. Cdg is a skill that isnt necessary for pve and breaks pvp. So why are you still talking?
    Burgs in my kin use all their skills depending on the situation. I and they would not agree with your assessment. And as far as still talking. That attitude is exactly what is wrong with the PVP community as a whole. They can't have a discussion without it getting personal/insulting/disrespectful. You can agree or disagree, but telling people to stop talking crosses that line and it is no wonder you complain about low populations as it isn't the game that is broken as much as it is the people who play it.

  17. #17
    I hope you all understand that burgs in pvp are still op even if you remove cdg?
    op bleeds(yeah you can stack ca up to 4 times+),op provoke mezz evade+ready and able on a low cooldown and the critchain itself is not doing low on dmg.
    dust is 35% miss Chance.remove 2 effects every 15sec for free......Burgs have really nothing to qq about and tbh i would enjoy the class more if it was less a 1oneshot Festival.

    btw:remove all in swapping(if you use all in in blue make it disappear if you swap traitline!)

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Burgs in my kin use all their skills depending on the situation. I and they would not agree with your assessment. And as far as still talking. That attitude is exactly what is wrong with the PVP community as a whole. They can't have a discussion without it getting personal/insulting/disrespectful. You can agree or disagree, but telling people to stop talking crosses that line and it is no wonder you complain about low populations as it isn't the game that is broken as much as it is the people who play it.
    Insult? you are an interesting person I can give you that. cdg is not needed in pve breaks pvp whats hard to understand asking for it to be removed.

  19. #19
    I'd be fine with CDG losing nearly all its damage, but in return guaranteeing to be switched to stealthmode infight, or just handling the next skill as if one was stealthed. So a better version of FA, maybe even kind of a weaker second HIPS, without the bonus of not being kicked out of stealth by damage or being undetectable.

    and OP bleeds? not realy. If anything, CA fromstealth is OP, but even that is quite fine, relative to SS. It needs ~15s to do the same damage SS does instantly, which is what dots are meant to do. Yes, you can stack CA bleeds up to 5 times, but not 5 good bleeds, just the weakest ones plus one critted plus one fromstealth. As long as there is no DEV-Aim-set which makes all dotticks critical, CA compared to SS is totally fine. If CA gets a nerf, SS will be better in all situations, which means CA should be deleted. I like having dots part of my rotation.
    Just make CA bleeds pottable, then its fine for PvP. For PvE, bleeds are completely reasonable.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    and OP bleeds? not realy. If anything, CA fromstealth is OP, but even that is quite fine, relative to SS. It needs ~15s to do the same damage SS does instantly, which is what dots are meant to do. Yes, you can stack CA bleeds up to 5 times, but not 5 good bleeds, just the weakest ones plus one critted plus one fromstealth. As long as there is no DEV-Aim-set which makes all dotticks critical, CA compared to SS is totally fine. If CA gets a nerf, SS will be better in all situations, which means CA should be deleted. I like having dots part of my rotation.
    Just make CA bleeds pottable, then its fine for PvP. For PvE, bleeds are completely reasonable.
    Who are you fooling? CA is ridiculous in PvE as well as PvP. Perhaps in PvE it isn't so obvious because NPCs die quickly, but in PvP it becomes apparent how over the top CA really is. The stealth version of CA can literally do 100% of a creep's health in damage.

    You sound exactly like every hunter who doesn't want to get nerfed and claims that the class is fine the way it is. It's not. Face the facts.

    And by the way, historically, SS was better than CA in almost every situation. It wasn't until Helm's Deep that this changed. The entire class fantasy behind Quiet Knife burglars is the from-stealth nuke that is iconic to SS. It should be the optimal skill to use in almost every situation.

  21. #21
    Cunning attack is too strong, but removing the dev aim set from the 115 table was a good change, and reduces the priority of fixing that bleed. I'd be cool with disabling CDG in the Moors.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Who are you fooling? CA is ridiculous in PvE as well as PvP. Perhaps in PvE it isn't so obvious because NPCs die quickly, but in PvP it becomes apparent how over the top CA really is. The stealth version of CA can literally do 100% of a creep's health in damage.

    You sound exactly like every hunter who doesn't want to get nerfed and claims that the class is fine the way it is. It's not. Face the facts.

    And by the way, historically, SS was better than CA in almost every situation. It wasn't until Helm's Deep that this changed. The entire class fantasy behind Quiet Knife burglars is the from-stealth nuke that is iconic to SS. It should be the optimal skill to use in almost every situation.
    If SS should always be the better option (like in doing more damage than CA over its full duration), then what reason does CA have to exist at all?
    We have an issue with burglars mainly because of too strong burst, DPS is okay. CA and SS are balanced with each other, as SS is always better if enemy dies within 15s after use (which is most fights) and CA being better for longer fights (like bossfights). I dont see any issue there.
    If burgs DPS generally was too high, because of very good utility, I might see the reason to just nerf everything, but I really see no issue with CA alone, especially relative to SS. I started playing my burglar, when RoR was endcontent, so dunno about "the old days"... But even when I started playing my burglar, I could always kill enemies even in lvl30 areas with just one CA from stealth, but it wasnt until nearly levelcap that SS was strong enough to onehit enemies... but actually, I dont care about history or pre-traittrees... thats gone. CA is only good for long fights, SS is always better for fights that last less than 15s... Burgs can decide to have strong burst or stronger sustained damage with these skills... I see no issue. What you feel "should" be the optimal skill doesnt matter. Its on the devs to decide this. And I prefer the decision, depending on fightlength that we have now.

    And again: If CA is OP in ettens, let its dot be pottable or vanish after 9s ooc, like so many other dots and debuffs. Problem gone.

    Yes, CA can do 100% of a creeps health... over 32 seconds. burgs can kill creeps within 3 seconds, though... which is the bigger issue?
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    If SS should always be the better option (like in doing more damage than CA over its full duration), then what reason does CA have to exist at all?
    We have an issue with burglars mainly because of too strong burst, DPS is okay. CA and SS are balanced with each other, as SS is always better if enemy dies within 15s after use (which is most fights) and CA being better for longer fights (like bossfights). I dont see any issue there.
    If burgs DPS generally was too high, because of very good utility, I might see the reason to just nerf everything, but I really see no issue with CA alone, especially relative to SS. I started playing my burglar, when RoR was endcontent, so dunno about "the old days"... But even when I started playing my burglar, I could always kill enemies even in lvl30 areas with just one CA from stealth, but it wasnt until nearly levelcap that SS was strong enough to onehit enemies... but actually, I dont care about history or pre-traittrees... thats gone. CA is only good for long fights, SS is always better for fights that last less than 15s... Burgs can decide to have strong burst or stronger sustained damage with these skills... I see no issue. What you feel "should" be the optimal skill doesnt matter. Its on the devs to decide this. And I prefer the decision, depending on fightlength that we have now.

    And again: If CA is OP in ettens, let its dot be pottable or vanish after 9s ooc, like so many other dots and debuffs. Problem gone.

    Yes, CA can do 100% of a creeps health... over 32 seconds. burgs can kill creeps within 3 seconds, though... which is the bigger issue?
    You're comparing SS and CA. Are you running both SS legacies? Because most folks can't afford losing that many legacies to make that comparison.
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  24. #24
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    Don’t think Burgs will be touched for a while but CDG is way way out there as being op . So much so like Barrage is to the Hunter , too many Burgs are so reliant upon it if they fail to kill (and thus invoke HIPS)they often die or struggle until cdg comes off cd . Burgs needed a buff but I don’t think we needed it in the form of CDG . I just wanted HIPS to work properly as it was intended and as per its tooltip describes it . Sadly due to the vast explosion of fotm Burgs in the moors (more the scaled exploiters) its pretty much made a large contribution to , if not ruined , the pvp experience as a whole , whilst doing little to advance the selection of a Burg to compliment a fellowship in pve .

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    If SS should always be the better option (like in doing more damage than CA over its full duration), then what reason does CA have to exist at all?
    To min/max damage, when SS is on cool down, of course.

    We have an issue with burglars mainly because of too strong burst, DPS is okay. CA and SS are balanced with each other, as SS is always better if enemy dies within 15s after use (which is most fights) and CA being better for longer fights (like bossfights). I dont see any issue there. If burgs DPS generally was too high, because of very good utility, I might see the reason to just nerf everything, but I really see no issue with CA alone, especially relative to SS. I started playing my burglar, when RoR was endcontent, so dunno about "the old days"... But even when I started playing my burglar, I could always kill enemies even in lvl30 areas with just one CA from stealth, but it wasnt until nearly levelcap that SS was strong enough to onehit enemies... but actually, I dont care about history or pre-traittrees... thats gone. CA is only good for long fights, SS is always better for fights that last less than 15s... Burgs can decide to have strong burst or stronger sustained damage with these skills... I see no issue. What you feel "should" be the optimal skill doesnt matter. Its on the devs to decide this. And I prefer the decision, depending on fightlength that we have now.
    I suppose you're right, the decision making is important and perhaps more fun than having a default pick in every scenario. That said, CA is far too strong in almost every scenario. There's only one specific scenario in which SS is ever better: if the target dies very quickly. This only happens on landscape. Everywhere else, you would use CA. Clearly, CA has been the single strongest stealth opener since HD. Some variety would not at all the class, because as it stands, 50%+ of a burg's DPS (in PvP, anyway) comes from CA.

    And again: If CA is OP in ettens, let its dot be pottable or vanish after 9s ooc, like so many other dots and debuffs. Problem gone.
    CA is OP in the Moors because it does too much damage... What makes you think the damage it does in PvE isn't equally ridiculous? It's not like the relative strengths of DPS skills on other classes change between PvP and PvE. CA is just as strong in PvE as it is in PvP.

    Yes, CA can do 100% of a creeps health... over 32 seconds. burgs can kill creeps within 3 seconds, though... which is the bigger issue?
    Both are just as much of an issue, since the burglar only has to press one button in both scenarios.

 

 
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