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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    I mostly take an issue with how the lootbox gear affects instance progression. Typically when MMO's launch a raid you end up farming the first few bosses you can reach for a bit until you can gear up to a level that allows you to tackle the next few bosses. This kind of system improves raid longevity as it insures you need to be playing through a couple of lock resets in order to progress rather than being able to just brute force it all within a week. Having high level gear available on landscape or lootboxes kinda just bypasses this aspect of progression.

    As far as people who play landscape only not needing raid gear... I fully agree. There is absolutely no reason to be at a raid tier of gear on landscape content but if U19 flower gear taught us anything it's that some players will desperately argue for the right to be at the same level of gear as raiders without having to hop through the same hoops that raiders do. The whole "Disable the raid tier barter gear" idea was an attempt to offer a compromise on that front: If you want to be at the same level of gear as raiders then you absolutely can do that via landscape content but if you want to do instance content then you absolutely must go through the progression system that raiders follow.
    In all honesty, and I mention this quite often. There was 1 time in the history of Lotro the Devs got it right and for some inane unknown reason (well now ,the reason is key sales but before than who knows) they never did it again. The time and area was Riders of Rohan. In that expansion we got a instance cluster with 3 raids a 6 man and two 3 mans. Doing those instances gave you a deed to unlock t1 raid gear which had set bonuses to help you complete t2, which had a better set you could upgrade to with gems that dropped in the raid. Not a raider, no problem. Welcome to Hytbold. A daily progression of building a town and the reward when done, some nice teal gear (with set bonuses on par with the raid armor and sometimes better where us who raided mixed and matched the pieces). Everyone was happy (not going to mention the gold item debacle but hey not everything is perfect). Raiders had progression gear and landscape players had a gear / grind. IT WORKED and they never, and I mean never did it again.

    Just my opinions on how a ball was dropped.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    People who started post F2P who haven't seen content before they made it easy...
    Yeah, cause SoA was sooooo hard when you could 5 man the Balrog fight.

    What a ######.

  3. #78
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    As this Casual reads more & more about this "new thing", and having experienced the joy of foraying into Mordor under-geared, I find myself... bummed.

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  4. #79
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    There should be no raid quality gear inside lootboxes. That should be inside the raid, or barterable with tokens that are inside the raid.

    Ash drops on landscape should not be removed. Ash raid farming should be removed. Step outside the usual and old "find a blanket quickly" box and find a solution that works to stop the raid farming, without killing the whole landscape content.

    Ash cap - great idea, if it were implemented at the start. I see the advantage to adding one (not joking, I really do), but it's way in the future (it will stop people mass farming in advance of updates, but we will not see the realisation of that for a very long time with the mountains of ash that people are sitting on at the moment). If you have enough players left by that time, it may work.

    Ash farming was a mistake and you didn't know about it? Ok, I'll be sure to send an email to support and private messages to the devs the next time something like this hits - to make sure you guys don't miss it. Keep an eye out for them, they will arrive on day one. No more "oops" moments. An oops moment is when the activity is disabled within hours, and the game is taken down twice in a week to fix it (cursed gear), not something that sits on Live and is plastered all over the forums for almost three months.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Nov 12 2017 at 08:21 PM.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    In all honesty, and I mention this quite often. There was 1 time in the history of Lotro the Devs got it right and for some inane unknown reason (well now ,the reason is key sales but before than who knows) they never did it again. The time and area was Riders of Rohan. In that expansion we got a instance cluster with 3 raids a 6 man and two 3 mans. Doing those instances gave you a deed to unlock t1 raid gear which had set bonuses to help you complete t2, which had a better set you could upgrade to with gems that dropped in the raid. Not a raider, no problem. Welcome to Hytbold. A daily progression of building a town and the reward when done, some nice teal gear (with set bonuses on par with the raid armor and sometimes better where us who raided mixed and matched the pieces). Everyone was happy (not going to mention the gold item debacle but hey not everything is perfect). Raiders had progression gear and landscape players had a gear / grind. IT WORKED and they never, and I mean never did it again.

    Just my opinions on how a ball was dropped.
    That expac also gave players plenty of incentive to run all the old instances. Random gold pieces in the challenge chests made sure people ran them all day every day. It was a fun time.

    Gt River was also packed with alternative routes to progression, and that wasn't even an expac. Really great landscape with good story and diverse style of play, with plenty to do and repeatables at the end of each zone. A great- non raid farmable - fellowship area (rewards for questing only) offering a different faction to barter for better gear and upgrade gear we earned on solo landscape, and then the 6 man, to further upgrade the Limlight gear.
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  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    In all honesty, and I mention this quite often. There was 1 time in the history of Lotro the Devs got it right and for some inane unknown reason (well now ,the reason is key sales but before than who knows) they never did it again. The time and area was Riders of Rohan. In that expansion we got a instance cluster with 3 raids a 6 man and two 3 mans. Doing those instances gave you a deed to unlock t1 raid gear which had set bonuses to help you complete t2, which had a better set you could upgrade to with gems that dropped in the raid. Not a raider, no problem. Welcome to Hytbold. A daily progression of building a town and the reward when done, some nice teal gear (with set bonuses on par with the raid armor and sometimes better where us who raided mixed and matched the pieces). Everyone was happy (not going to mention the gold item debacle but hey not everything is perfect). Raiders had progression gear and landscape players had a gear / grind. IT WORKED and they never, and I mean never did it again.

    Just my opinions on how a ball was dropped.
    Hytbold was great. Sure, it took quite some time to complete but it's quest were centralised, the instances were short and varied there was progression and rewards besides just gear (I still use the dozens of Hytbold housing items to this day) and it featured a final quest that combined all the previous zones together and brought a satisfactory conclusion to multiple quest lines. I'd do anything for them to bring something like this back over mob or flower grinding.
    The road goes ever on.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    In all honesty, and I mention this quite often. There was 1 time in the history of Lotro the Devs got it right and for some inane unknown reason (well now ,the reason is key sales but before than who knows) they never did it again. The time and area was Riders of Rohan. In that expansion we got a instance cluster with 3 raids a 6 man and two 3 mans. Doing those instances gave you a deed to unlock t1 raid gear which had set bonuses to help you complete t2, which had a better set you could upgrade to with gems that dropped in the raid. Not a raider, no problem. Welcome to Hytbold. A daily progression of building a town and the reward when done, some nice teal gear (with set bonuses on par with the raid armor and sometimes better where us who raided mixed and matched the pieces). Everyone was happy (not going to mention the gold item debacle but hey not everything is perfect). Raiders had progression gear and landscape players had a gear / grind. IT WORKED and they never, and I mean never did it again.

    Just my opinions on how a ball was dropped.
    This is very true!

    As for ash farms, I think I already suggested this when Wastes farming was happening, that just add a tech that disables all loot from dropping to player when that player is in raid group in landscape (non-raid) area. Problem solved. Because really, there is NO reason to be in 7-24 man raids in areas that are meant for solo questing. But that would still allow people to be in 6-man groups max and still get loot. So maybe 3-man max?

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilean-EU View Post
    This is very true!

    As for ash farms, I think I already suggested this when Wastes farming was happening, that just add a tech that disables all loot from dropping to player when that player is in raid group in landscape (non-raid) area. Problem solved. Because really, there is NO reason to be in 7-24 man raids in areas that are meant for solo questing. But that would still allow people to be in 6-man groups max and still get loot. So maybe 3-man max?
    Agree in principal, but let's not forget that there are things like RT's in normal landscape. So some exceptions to the rule should apply.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    In all honesty, and I mention this quite often. There was 1 time in the history of Lotro the Devs got it right and for some inane unknown reason (well now ,the reason is key sales but before than who knows) they never did it again. The time and area was Riders of Rohan. In that expansion we got a instance cluster with 3 raids a 6 man and two 3 mans. Doing those instances gave you a deed to unlock t1 raid gear which had set bonuses to help you complete t2, which had a better set you could upgrade to with gems that dropped in the raid. Not a raider, no problem. Welcome to Hytbold. A daily progression of building a town and the reward when done, some nice teal gear (with set bonuses on par with the raid armor and sometimes better where us who raided mixed and matched the pieces). Everyone was happy (not going to mention the gold item debacle but hey not everything is perfect). Raiders had progression gear and landscape players had a gear / grind. IT WORKED and they never, and I mean never did it again.

    Just my opinions on how a ball was dropped.
    Lets be honest for a second here. Hytbold armor was on most cases superior to t1 armor labeling it irrelevant. On top of this raid part of cluster and 6 man were just terrible. Only bfe was nice from bunch and rest suffered from extreme brokenness or just stupid design. People complained a lot and that was cluster they managed to create with 4x bigger team than current one. So only progression there was for many classes was hytbold to t2 armor... Also lets not forget fiasco of personal loot... Having done bfe t2cm and nothing dropped to entire group worth of mentioning...

  10. #85
    I understand the intention to srop ash farming, but nothing is being done to address the reasons why people go ash farming in the first place.

    How on earth is one expected to gather tens of thousands of ash? A bix can drop 20 or 40, 100 with some luck. That is a ridiculous amount of boxes to be opened. Basically the only way to make progress is to buy a lot of store items, whether you are VIP or not. A VIP already pays a subscription to play the game and you give that player only store items to progress?

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex53 View Post
    I understand the intention to srop ash farming, but nothing is being done to address the reasons why people go ash farming in the first place.

    How on earth is one expected to gather tens of thousands of ash? A bix can drop 20 or 40, 100 with some luck. That is a ridiculous amount of boxes to be opened. Basically the only way to make progress is to buy a lot of store items, whether you are VIP or not. A VIP already pays a subscription to play the game and you give that player only store items to progress?
    Instances and the raid? Like one should be to get instance/raid grade gear. I wouldnt be surprised if they upped box rewards as well.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Instances and the raid? Like one should be to get instance/raid grade gear. I wouldnt be surprised if they upped box rewards as well.
    But why do you think it is their intention that players should only use instances and the raid to progress? They stated, ages ago, that they would NEVER take that route.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    We fundamentally disagree with the philosophy that only T2 raiders should be allowed to get access to the best loot. It will often be the case that this is so, but to make some kind of permanent rule on it is something we simply will never do. We like motivating raiders to get gear, and our current offerings do so, even if in one or two very specific cases the numbers are slightly better in a non-raid-acquired item than a raid item as post-raid updates are released. Ultimately, if we were seeing a drop in the number of people running Throne of the Dread Terror, that might be a data point we'd take into consideration, but since the actual numbers are showing that more individual people are completing the raid on T2 difficulty more frequently since we released the flora system, the numbers don't support some of the arguments in this thread.
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  13. #88
    So raid gear (be it with or without set bonusses) being available for ashes just for everyone, is in my opinion a joke.
    There will be no sense of achievement left of getting something that everyone has or can have anyway. To my experience raiders and end gamers are the ones who contribute the most to support the game by either subbing as VIP or small TP purchases for LI upgrades, solvents and other things to help gear up their various characters in order to do what they love doing .... raiding.

    If you make good content to play, a good and fair gearing system (it's an MMO, it can be grindy, but please don't make it P2W) maybe you'll keep us happy and playing instead of putting us off. You may even attract more players to purchase Mordor expansion with better content (or at the very least playable).

    This means don't! make raid gear obtainable by p2w ways. For me, and many of my friends, there will be no point left in playing. In the past we spent countless hours trying to get the best of our characters, weeks every day spent on trying to complete first raid kills on T2c, to be rewarded with gear exclusive to people who made the effort. This is what we want and how we like it. Remove that sense of achievent and feeling of making our characters better and better with every boss kill, and you may find alot of us following the example of Araphorn earlier in this thread and so many others doing the same without speaking up.
    I'm not saying give non-raiders nothing, give them gear with which they are able to raid on T2c, if they spend some time learning their characters, but not this way, please.

    Otherwise you will lose (more) players currently VIP or paying regular small TP purchases.




    I don't just want to state my disagreements but thought of a few solutions for this problem:

    Raid gear with ashes, as stated earlier in this thread, can be an easier way of getting the gear rather then hoping for RNGesus to give you a drop. I suggest to make this deed gated however. For example make players able to barter raid gear with ashes if they downed the corresponding raid boss on T2(c).
    Also the LoE increasing to 300 (so i heard) is a problem if our current gear can't possibly reach that. Still don't just make raid gear available for everyon to "fix" this. it's lazy and silly. In my opinion the raid should be possible to complete for good players in instance gear, I suggest to for example make the LoE requirement raise with every boss further in the raid. Boss 1 requiring 220 LoE, so you can complete it with current ash and instance gear. Boss 2 requiring 230-240 light, so that you need to get armour from Boss 1 to complete it etc.


    (I haven't actively been to bulloarer so i only have everything from hearing. If any of what i stated above is wrong i apologise for it)
    Last edited by Harigrim; Nov 13 2017 at 09:59 AM.
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Lets be honest for a second here. Hytbold armor was on most cases superior to t1 armor labeling it irrelevant. On top of this raid part of cluster and 6 man were just terrible. Only bfe was nice from bunch and rest suffered from extreme brokenness or just stupid design. People complained a lot and that was cluster they managed to create with 4x bigger team than current one. So only progression there was for many classes was hytbold to t2 armor... Also lets not forget fiasco of personal loot... Having done bfe t2cm and nothing dropped to entire group worth of mentioning...
    Nice way to divert what I said. I never said the raids were good. What I was talking about was the different paths to gear and I do mention some of the hytbold sets were better and most players took advantage of that and used multiple pieces from Multiple sets to get the best stats, and bonuses. Just because the instances themselves were not the best does not detract that Turbine at the time get gearing right, Multiple paths to a common goal and people were happy with the gear options. Notice the word options. You had choices on how to build because of this. Since than we have gotten lets see...
    • Big Battle Random Drops which turned into
    • Stars of Merit Farms
    • Dol Amroth Dailies for Essence Gear
    • Instance Essence Gear
    • Raid Essence Gear
    • Multiple Areas of Gondor Essence Gear
    • Flower Essence Gear
    • Flower Upgrade raid gear part 1
    • Flower upgrade of raid Gear part 2
    • Ash Gear Part 1
    • Instance gear
    • Ash gear Part 2
    • Lootbox Superior gear
    • Raid Gear
    • lootbox Superior raid gear


    the only times on that list they came close to having a Hytbold / Erebor style choice was when the Osgiliath Instances were released and we had new Landscape Barter Essence gear, albeit the Instance gear had 5 essence slots whilst the landscape had 3 iirc.

    You could bring up Dol Amroth which had 2 seperate grinds but in the end, the harder grind was to get the non essence gear which in the end was so subpar to the essence gear with even teal essences and the set bonuses were not really that good.
    I saw the light fade from the sky
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  15. #90
    Honestly I don't understand why you guys put efford and time in creating a new raid to make your own work pretty much useless by letting the raidgear drop from lootboxes. This gear should be raid - exclusive only (!). What motivation is there for people to do the raid at all if the items you can gain in it, are also to be available by opening Gorgoroth - lootboxes?!
    I personally really enjoyed the Throne of the Dread Terror raid, since there was something to gain and get. More than just a simple deed or a pet or a housing item. Where would be the point fo r dedicated raiders to do the raid. The best gear in the game should be from the raid. If you want to get it, you should go and group up with people and do the 12man. Not just play solo and open lootboxes to obtain the best stuff their is.
    Also, if players play solo. Meaning doing all the content which can be soloed alone anyway... why and what would they need the raid - armour for in the first place? The ash gear for example really does the job more than good for questing or doing the 3man.
    Which brings me directly to the next point. I can absolutely understand that a company like SSG needs money to keep the game running. Yes. But is it really needed that you try to find more and more reasons to try and make people buy keys from the store? And make the game more pay to win?
    Yes of course you can also get keys a different way, but still... seems to me like a tactic to make people spend real money. Maybe you should have taken the chance with this expansion to make the game better and people willing to play. Imagine you would have done a really good job on instances (you promised people three of them and you gave us 2), maybe more people would have been interested in taking money and buy the expansion.
    Even a QP which was free for VIPs got 3 instances and a 6bosses - raid. Now you asked quiet some money for Mordor and you gave people two instances only.
    One seems to be so buggy and long that a lot of people, imagine, can't even be bothered to try. So they farm the #### out of Seregost. Mostlikely people gonna get bored at some point and stop playing since there is nothing else to be done than daylies and that one instance.
    Myself, I had high hopes with mrodor coming out and I was actually really looking forward to the raid. Since i am a raider myself I like doing stuff together with other people. Like achievements in a 12man group and get also the hardest content done. But I admit I also would like to be rewarded by a nice drop hich keeps me motivated. Actually I want to play the game to gain my gear and don't just do a daylie which is not interesting anymore after three month and get a key for it to open a lootbox.
    Of course some people might say now: you don't have to open a lootbox, you can just play the raid and get the stuff that way.
    My answer to this is: yes of course you are right.
    But as I said already a few lines above why do you need raid- gear as not - raider?!
    Set bonuses as none- raider. It is in my opinion and not to be offensive useless to give someone raidarmour who just casually rides around and kills mobs or even roleplays. (No offence to RPers).
    For SSG: you guys should make people wanting to group up and get something out of it. Make people wanting to play the raid, the instances.
    What you are doing at the moment with puting more and more stuff into lootboxes... you put people off. You don't motivate them or give them any reaason to play. Why would a group of people be interested in spending houndrets of hours to figure out any tactics for a raid or an instance to com0plete when the stuff they can get drops for silly lootboxes?
    To get a title? To get a deed done?
    Everyone can have the gear more or less easily by just puting either a bit time into the game or even money... That is not really rewaring, what do you think?


    Quest gear should get you going, instances give you better gear so you can prepare and go into the raid. The best armour in the game should, nevertheless be droping from the raid. Players should be getting it by doing/ playing the raid only. Not from lootboxes.
    If this really goes life you have to expect a lot of the remaining raiders quiting the game or at least canceling their subs. For myself, since i payed quiet some money on Mordor i gonna keep probably playing to not lose my money and make it worth that i spent it but for the future i have to reconcider if I gonna stay VIP which i have been since i started playing the game in 2013.
    Also I probably gonna play the raid but might stop when new content comes out.

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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    Nice way to divert what I said. I never said the raids were good. What I was talking about was the different paths to gear and I do mention some of the hytbold sets were better and most players took advantage of that and used multiple pieces from Multiple sets to get the best stats, and bonuses. Just because the instances themselves were not the best does not detract that Turbine at the time get gearing right, Multiple paths to a common goal and people were happy with the gear options. Notice the word options. You had choices on how to build because of this. Since than we have gotten lets see...
    As I said it was only illusion and never worked as you described it. For most classes there was just hytbold and t2 armor. That's it, even on some cases hytbold was still better than t2 armor. If you want to take good recent example of progression it would be 105 cap with FI, instance, landscape, raid armors. Also you are wrong on lootbox raid gear since set bonuses are raid exclusive...

  17. #92
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    First this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tybur View Post
    • Level 106 - 115 landscape mobs will no longer have a chance to drop incomparable equipment that can be disenchanted into Ash of Gorgoroth.
    Yea those have been the only drops. No other tier loe gear even drops. Removing those remove all loe and ash drops from landscape.

    Now this separate post from someone who says they've been testing on the test server.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michaleo View Post
    Today's Daily Expedition (Agarnaith and Dor Amarth) does not reward with a Black Steel Key (as it does on live) or a Sliver of Black Steel.

    Is there someplace besides the store where Black Steel Keys will be available?
    Is this for real?

    Does this mean the only way to get the black steel keys will be for money in the store after next update? And no ash from landscape either?

    Are you deliberately trying to push people away from lotro?

    Plz say non of this is true or goes live!

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    SSG be like


  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by elzeqq View Post
    SSG be like

    Very accurate, sadly.

  20. #95
    I'm not sure why I'm surprised, but I thought perhaps Tybur would've given us some type of response today. I'm guessing it's because they are discussing what to do internally before letting us know the final verdict. I doubt they expected such a significant pushback on the ash-dropping issue, but I'm hoping they will take our opinions into serious consideration and I hope that they decide to scrap this part of their plan.

    I'd also like some reassurance from them that they are not removing the ability to earn black keys from the allegiance dailies because that would mean the only way to get a key would be to buy one, which is not a viable solution. Since it was not in the beta preview notes I believe it was just an error. I hope I'm right.
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  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by BotLike View Post
    This has to be a joke....

    Every single gear item from the raid is available to ash barter ! The only difference is that ash gear doesn't award set bonuses. Jewells are 100% the same.
    This doesn't even happen in the worst pay to win chinese MMO on the whole planet.

    People are going to cash out ash to beat the raid on day 1...

    Throw this on live and prepare for a @#%$storm
    SSG will punish with this changes every player who saved shoppoints to buy the expansion in the winter. This is the only reson for this changes: You dared not pay with money, then go and die in the grind.

  22. #97
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    @ Devs.

    Can you please explain what use the level 112 ash armour now has for players new to Mordor, given that all possibility for them to accumulate ash (in game, not store) until they are level 115 is being removed?

    There is no way a player starting off can accumulate enough ash for even one or two pieces of this level 112 gear by the time they reach level 112.

    That gear was presumably put there originally at launch, to enable players questing through Mordor to boost their LoE when they got to that level. Ash was character bound back then, so ash drops in landscape very much had purpose and reason for being there, otherwise nobody would have been able to barter for that 112 gear back then.

    So new players hitting Mordor after this patch, get to level 112, discover they have practically nada in the ash pile and not quite enough LoE to progress to the last two areas, and do what?
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  23. #98
    I think the answer is, use crafted gear and run instances. Like cord said Ashe was intendet to be a safety net for people who habe badluck with instance loot and not as the Main way to grind gear.
    Gertes

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Instances and the raid? Like one should be to get instance/raid grade gear. I wouldnt be surprised if they upped box rewards as well.
    So I need to run instances to get 150 light or 200 light to run instances. See the catch 22?

    Also when you start Mordor at level 105 with 0 light, and it is really difficult until you get some light, but that first 20 light is behind a bunch of quests, in areas where you need 20 light. Another catch 22.

    The answer to both of these was in the landscape teals. You eventually got a few while questing, and you pulled through. The questing was still challenging but could work on it and see your character improve.

    Without that they are breaking the progression! All because they don't like ash farms because they make it less likely for people to buy keys. How about limiting teal drops in the landscape to a small number per day? Non-farmers get reasonable progression and ash farming stops. It doesn't take a genius!

    Another helpful thing would be for dailies (at least some of them) to start sooner, not at 115. Then you would be able to alternate them with questing to improve your character and get you through the content. Sometimes it feels like the people making the decisions have never played an MMO!

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex53 View Post
    So I need to run instances to get 150 light or 200 light to run instances. See the catch 22?

    Also when you start Mordor at level 105 with 0 light, and it is really difficult until you get some light, but that first 20 light is behind a bunch of quests, in areas where you need 20 light. Another catch 22.

    The answer to both of these was in the landscape teals. You eventually got a few while questing, and you pulled through. The questing was still challenging but could work on it and see your character improve.

    Without that they are breaking the progression! All because they don't like ash farms because they make it less likely for people to buy keys. How about limiting teal drops in the landscape to a small number per day? Non-farmers get their progression and ash farming stops. It doesn't take a genius!
    150 light is dirty easy to get and 105 versio that everyone keeps grinding dont even have that. Just barter bunch of purple allegiance gear and one crafted item and one has 160 light. Really one is just fine doing t1 115 with about 110 or so light. Its soloable on that level with proper gear so im sure bunch of underlighted players can do it... Even t2 requirement isnt hard to reach, it just requires some thought put into what is reasonable to wear.

    Also landscape drops were never required to complete questing, one gets sufficient amount of light from quests.

 

 
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