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  1. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Like most previous level caps? Selling crafted or instance gear was totally typical... That sounds like uhm like working MMORPG....

    Compared to game where you get only drops you can't use and you destroy them to eventually get one piece you might need.
    Selling crafted gear is obviously fine. That is the idea of crafting: you have a profession and you can earn gold with this profession.

    But at what level cap was it possible to sell instance or raid gear in the AH? Instance gear was always either character-bound or account-bound.

    I'm not fundamentally against being able to trade and sell everything. But first SSG needs to fix LOTRO's broken economy. First step would be removing stupid individual loot from the game so gold farmers can't farm millions of gold while AFK with 24 Accounts.

  2. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    Terrible idea. You know that you can buy gold for real world money? Either directly from gold sellers or indirectly via the LOTRO Store if you sell store items such as Solvents, Black Steel Keys, etc.? Ultimate Pay-to-Win.
    Are you aware that some of those raiders complaining on the forum about raid lvl gear on vendors (without set-bonuses btw) are also selling raid drops for gold? Guess were a good part of that gold comes from. Hint: ask that gold spammer in /wd.

    There are enough games out there that don't know the concept of "bind on xy".

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    Selling crafted gear is obviously fine. That is the idea of crafting: you have a profession and you can earn gold with this profession.

    But at what level cap was it possible to sell instance or raid gear in the AH? Instance gear was always either character-bound or account-bound.

    I'm not fundamentally against being able to trade and sell everything. But first SSG needs to fix LOTRO's broken economy. First step would be removing stupid individual loot from the game so gold farmers can't farm millions of gold while AFK with 24 Accounts.
    Pretty sure you could do that at 85 with the exception of gold items.
    Eredor-Champion, Ereworn-Minstrel, Ereshorn-Runekeeper, Eresworn-Hunter, Eremourn-Burglar, Erehorn-Captain, Erelorn-Warden, Eretorn-Lore-Master, Erescorn-Guardian... And Erecorn-Master Farmer

  4. #129
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    Some further feedback regarding ash drops on Mordor landscape (brought over from the main forum as more important for it to be here).

    Bullroarer has a purpose. That purpose is how the Devs "ask" for feedback, and that feedback is, by a large majority of feedback providers - that this change is not welcome.

    All that remains now is whether or not they will listen to the feedback - that they asked for.

    The argument that ash drops were not intended to be in the game and were a mistake, is not holding water, because they added level 112 gear to the barter NPC's at a time that ash was character bound. If ash drops were not intended, that armour wouldn't have ever been there, as nobody would be able to barter for it, at least, not without buying keys anyway. So either ash drops were not intended and that 112 gear was pure pay to win (because there was no way to earn it without buying keys), or ash drops were intended (as the only way to earn that 112 gear without having to buy keys). If pure pay to win, it's not good, and if intended originally, as a means to earn ash to barter for that gear, then it needs to stay put.

    Basically, if ash drops were never intended to be present for players to earn 112 gear, then that 112 gear was added as a pure pay to win item.
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  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Some further feedback regarding ash drops on Mordor landscape (brought over from the main forum as more important for it to be here).

    Bullroarer has a purpose. That purpose is how the Devs "ask" for feedback, and that feedback is, by a large majority of feedback providers - that this change is not welcome.

    All that remains now is whether or not they will listen to the feedback - that they asked for.

    The argument that ash drops were not intended to be in the game and were a mistake, is not holding water, because they added level 112 gear to the barter NPC's at a time that ash was character bound. If ash drops were not intended, that armour wouldn't have ever been there, as nobody would be able to barter for it, at least, not without buying keys anyway. So either ash drops were not intended and that 112 gear was pure pay to win (because there was no way to earn it without buying keys), or ash drops were intended (as the only way to earn that 112 gear without having to buy keys). If pure pay to win, it's not good, and if intended originally, as a means to earn ash to barter for that gear, then it needs to stay put.

    Basically, if ash drops were never intended to be present for players to earn 112 gear, then that 112 gear was added as a pure pay to win item.
    Nah the will use the diatribe that they looked at feedback from other areas.... not like they haven't used that excuse before.

    I actually wonder, when they develop an area now, do they have their excuses pre-made and ready to go as well? Seems like more work is put into those sometimes
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  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    Nah the will use the diatribe that they looked at feedback from other areas.... not like they haven't used that excuse before.

    I actually wonder, when they develop an area now, do they have their excuses pre-made and ready to go as well? Seems like more work is put into those sometimes
    Players get approximately 30 LoE from quests by the time they reach level 112. They may get 40 or 50 even if they open rare chests. Regardless though, they will not have had much more than 10 green items to break for ash - which would give them 50 ash to barter with, at an NPC where the cheapest item is 90 ash.

    There is only one way to look at that. If ash drops were not intended to be in the game, that level 112 gear was put there as a paid (bought keys) armour only. No ash drops, means - no player could earn it any other way than buying keys from the store.
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  7. #132
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    One gets quest rewards from Udun alone:
    2x earrings, ring, chest, shoulders, boots, leggings, gloves, neck, pocket, off hand.

    This gives one 34-36 light when entering Dor Amarth. Depending if you are off hand user or not.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    One gets quest rewards from Udun alone:
    2x earrings, ring, chest, shoulders, boots, leggings, gloves, neck, pocket, off hand.

    This gives one 34-36 light when entering Dor Amarth. Depending if you are off hand user or not.
    Would be interested to see how much light one gets from quest rewards before entering TU. I know I was at T2 shadow debuff when first doing it on rk, although I did do TU before Lhingris so probably missed a bit of light.
    Eredor-Champion, Ereworn-Minstrel, Ereshorn-Runekeeper, Eresworn-Hunter, Eremourn-Burglar, Erehorn-Captain, Erelorn-Warden, Eretorn-Lore-Master, Erescorn-Guardian... And Erecorn-Master Farmer

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by dselden View Post
    Would be interested to see how much light one gets from quest rewards before entering TU. I know I was at T2 shadow debuff when first doing it on rk, although I did do TU before Lhingris so probably missed a bit of light.
    That's 10 pieces, you should get full set of gear and big part of it x4 light and 14 pocket by point one goes there because of lhingris (like 7-8 pieces). Combined with good dozen rare boxes with 4 light items.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Players get approximately 30 LoE from quests by the time they reach level 112. They may get 40 or 50 even if they open rare chests. Regardless though, they will not have had much more than 10 green items to break for ash - which would give them 50 ash to barter with, at an NPC where the cheapest item is 90 ash.


    There is only one way to look at that. If ash drops were not intended to be in the game, that level 112 gear was put there as a paid (bought keys) armour only. No ash drops, means - no player could earn it any other way than buying keys from the store.
    Exactly.The principle is still egregious whether ash and LoE is 'needed' to do Mordor at 106, 110 or 112, or not......Clearly Slip can run it all naked with a frying pan. So the whole argument really doesn't affect him and players like him. They don't need any gear, or ash. I'm talking about the rest of the player base who come to Mordor after this change is introduced.

    For all the quibbling about whether you get 30 0r 50 LOE including from rare boxes (which are in mob infested areas) and the offhand that some classes cannot use, and the order you quest in, the bottom line is you won't get the drops to barter for better pieces to get ready for harder areas, or get good enough gear from quests for the instanced content on tier 1. edit: Even in RoI crafted and some special quest rewards were enough to let you do tier 1 small groups and 6 mans. They dropped gear that let you do the easy raid or small fellows on tier 2.and so on,. LoE distorts this. There is a gear progression gap that is met by the 112 barterable gear. But the option of bartering for it will be removed...


    If this happens all you can conclude is: SSG Let a bunch of capped fast players get the rewards without effort, or even owning the expac, then later decided to make the content harder for average players and very grindy, because those rewards no longer dropped nor were barterable, and then offered a solution that involves micro transactions and gambling to pay to get gear.

    That is the nub of my objection.

    edit. The solution is to let players craft the purple and teal 112 gear available from the ash barterers, or make those teal items drop as quests rewards. or leave the landscape teal drop alone and wear the 'oops'.
    Last edited by Calta; Nov 17 2017 at 12:08 AM. Reason: formatting and marked edit

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  11. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    Terrible idea. You know that you can buy gold for real world money? Either directly from gold sellers or indirectly via the LOTRO Store if you sell store items such as Solvents, Black Steel Keys, etc.? Ultimate Pay-to-Win.
    Lol you don't need to buy gold with real money, its so easy to earn anyway... there are millions of it floating around. The fact is, every MMO with a real economy does away with BoA items. And no you can't call a game pay-to-win because of the presence of illegal gold sellers. Only a tiny fraction of players will ever use those services.
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  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by dselden View Post
    Would be interested to see how much light one gets from quest rewards before entering TU. I know I was at T2 shadow debuff when first doing it on rk, although I did do TU before Lhingris so probably missed a bit of light.
    Udun gives the most loe, and if you do everything without rare chests, you will leave there with about 34 LoE. Quest rewards in Dor Armarth all carry 2 LoE, so they will only provide slightly higher stats, not LoE increase. Lhingris will add a new 14 LoE pocket at the end of its quest arcs (extra 2 LoE because you take off 12 to equip 14) and five pieces of 4 LoE gear (so an extra 10 loE, because you take off the old 2 LoE items). So the total at that point is 46 LoE, from quests. Udun has 3 accessible rare chests that are not in level 115 areas (extra 6 LoE), Dor Armarth has 2 (extra 4 LoE) and Lhingris has one (extra 2 LoE). 58 LoE total. My minstrel, who got zero drops while questing, hit TU with 56 LoE, because she couldn't manage one of the chests along the way given she is built for heals. It is possible to get a little more if you open tap (as in 4-6 LoE off a few level cap area rare chests), or run some with a partner, but it's not possible to get enough LoE by the time you arrive at TU with solo play. TU isn't just about good LoE it's also about high Tact Mitigations, and given the fact that nearly all Mordor quest rewards to that point are essence free, one can find themselves having to remove a couple of LoE pieces, in order to boost their tact miti enough.

    But nobody really needs to crunch the numbers on this stuff. The devs added level 112 gear into the game to help with this barrier, which is proof enough that the barrier exists for the majority of players, but now, they are removing all means to barter for it. They need to stop listening to the players that are saying this can be done purely on quests, because for the massive majority of players that have already run Mordor - they DIDN'T do it on just quest rewards. So they wouldn't actually know.

    Its all very well standing here and saying, yeah, you "can" get to TU with 58 LoE and run it - thing is though, none of us did, we all had access to the level 112 gear with ash we got from drops along the way, as well as some dropped teals we could actually equip if we were lucky. My minstrel being an exception hit a wall at TU and couldn't progress in a traditional way (burning tents and towers continuously in one camp for two whole levels was not fun). My RK had 74 loE arriving at TU, because she got lucky with one rare chest (teal shoulders) and had enough ash to barter for one earring at level 112, and even then, she had to progress through the area very carefully because of all her evade loaded gear and lack of finesse.

    If your RK entered TU with only 2 shadow and you skipped Lhingris, then you must have had some teals equipped or level 112 bartered gear. TU is a 70 - 80 shadow area, and with 34 LoE you'd be running around with a fly swat and dying constantly.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Nov 17 2017 at 02:09 AM.
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  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    But at what level cap was it possible to sell instance or raid gear in the AH? .
    Actually at 95 cap you could do it too because all the Armour was from scaled instances (Bind on Equip as in this thread here:
    HTML Code:
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?535472-Update-12-1-Scaling-Instance-Loot
    ) and jewlery was RNG from Epic battles (BoA),
    and later on with fangorn they added Gold crafted 95 gear

    U12.1 was solid - too bad SSG didnt retain set bonuses for Osgiliath/Silent Street.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    Exactly.The principle is still egregious whether ash and LoE is 'needed' to do Mordor at 106, 110 or 112, or not......Clearly Slip can run it all naked with a frying pan. So the whole argument really doesn't affect him and players like him. They don't need any gear, or ash. I'm talking about the rest of the player base who come to Mordor after this change is introduced.

    For all the quibbling about whether you get 30 0r 50 LOE including from rare boxes (which are in mob infested areas) and the offhand that some classes cannot use, and the order you quest in, the bottom line is you won't get the drops to barter for better pieces to get ready for harder areas, or get good enough gear from quests for the instanced content on tier 1. edit: Even in RoI crafted and some special quest rewards were enough to let you do tier 1 small groups and 6 mans. They dropped gear that let you do the easy raid or small fellows on tier 2.and so on,. LoE distorts this. There is a gear progression gap that is met by the 112 barterable gear. But the option of bartering for it will be removed...


    If this happens all you can conclude is: SSG Let a bunch of capped fast players get the rewards without effort, or even owning the expac, then later decided to make the content harder for average players and very grindy, because those rewards no longer dropped nor were barterable, and then offered a solution that involves micro transactions and gambling to pay to get gear.

    That is the nub of my objection.

    edit. The solution is to let players craft the purple and teal 112 gear available from the ash barterers, or make those teal items drop as quests rewards. or leave the landscape teal drop alone and wear the 'oops'.
    Its amusing you are agree with person why did highly missleading post that has no facts in it. Then goes to do another post using facts I just stated... If we look how progression goes, one will get about full set in the end of dor amarth awarding extra 10 light, so nullifying 40 shadow, on top of old 30+, then go to lhingris and get extra 10 light because of upgrades. Then you have opportinuty to open good 10+ chests on quest locations, awarding 4 light items. At minimum one should enter tal urui with 50 light, meaning first half of that area will have 20 shadow, which is nothing. And in tal urui you get just 4 light items replacing even more of your items. I played most of expansion with 40 shadow active and dont think it was hard at all.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Players get approximately 30 LoE from quests by the time they reach level 112. They may get 40 or 50 even if they open rare chests. Regardless though, they will not have had much more than 10 green items to break for ash - which would give them 50 ash to barter with, at an NPC where the cheapest item is 90 ash.

    There is only one way to look at that. If ash drops were not intended to be in the game, that level 112 gear was put there as a paid (bought keys) armour only. No ash drops, means - no player could earn it any other way than buying keys from the store.
    That is all this is, a push to lootbox and key sales. They can make any exxcuse they want and sip can back them up by diverting arguments away to fit his prose. I mean look below he is so OP he solo all of Mordor with 40 shadow active, you know -40% damage and +40% incoming damage iirc. Next thing he is going to tell us he did this on his LM without using heals and no pets active. In other words, I got my hip waders on cause it got deep in here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    Exactly.The principle is still egregious whether ash and LoE is 'needed' to do Mordor at 106, 110 or 112, or not......Clearly Slip can run it all naked with a frying pan. So the whole argument really doesn't affect him and players like him. They don't need any gear, or ash. I'm talking about the rest of the player base who come to Mordor after this change is introduced.

    For all the quibbling about whether you get 30 0r 50 LOE including from rare boxes (which are in mob infested areas) and the offhand that some classes cannot use, and the order you quest in, the bottom line is you won't get the drops to barter for better pieces to get ready for harder areas, or get good enough gear from quests for the instanced content on tier 1. edit: Even in RoI crafted and some special quest rewards were enough to let you do tier 1 small groups and 6 mans. They dropped gear that let you do the easy raid or small fellows on tier 2.and so on,. LoE distorts this. There is a gear progression gap that is met by the 112 barterable gear. But the option of bartering for it will be removed...


    If this happens all you can conclude is: SSG Let a bunch of capped fast players get the rewards without effort, or even owning the expac, then later decided to make the content harder for average players and very grindy, because those rewards no longer dropped nor were barterable, and then offered a solution that involves micro transactions and gambling to pay to get gear.

    That is the nub of my objection.

    edit. The solution is to let players craft the purple and teal 112 gear available from the ash barterers, or make those teal items drop as quests rewards. or leave the landscape teal drop alone and wear the 'oops'.
    There was no ooops. "oops" = we need to sell more keys please buy them

    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Its amusing you are agree with person why did highly missleading post that has no facts in it. Then goes to do another post using facts I just stated... If we look how progression goes, one will get about full set in the end of dor amarth awarding extra 10 light, so nullifying 40 shadow, on top of old 30+, then go to lhingris and get extra 10 light because of upgrades. Then you have opportinuty to open good 10+ chests on quest locations, awarding 4 light items. At minimum one should enter tal urui with 50 light, meaning first half of that area will have 20 shadow, which is nothing. And in tal urui you get just 4 light items replacing even more of your items. I played most of expansion with 40 shadow active and dont think it was hard at all.
    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah a Dude, I have read some tales in my time, but each post you make is getting better and better, are you trying to give Samuel Clemons a run for his money?
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  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    That is all this is, a push to lootbox and key sales. They can make any exxcuse they want and sip can back them up by diverting arguments away to fit his prose. I mean look below he is so OP he solo all of Mordor with 40 shadow active, you know -40% damage and +40% incoming damage iirc. Next thing he is going to tell us he did this on his LM without using heals and no pets active. In other words, I got my hip waders on cause it got deep in here.
    No you dont get -40% outgoing damage debuff on that tier. But this just continues theme of throw out opinions based on random self made up statistics. Like players entering TU with 30 light...

  17. #142
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    I think it's safe to assume we are considering the progression of a lvl 105 entering Udun with average gear and average skill and game knowledge. We are not assuming it's anyone with the epeen of a siipperi making this journey. It's also someone that hasn't been ash farming for 3 months like some have and not an alt with plenty of local currency in the bank.

    I would think that a 105 with poor gear and limited skill and game knowledge would struggle without the shadow mechanic so getting further in with 40 shadow active would not be an option.

    The trouble is that there was no linear progression from the start. Until you got to 112 and more critically 115 there weren't any options to ease the pain other than buying keys from the store to open a few of the huge numbers of Gorgoroth Lootboxes that dropped hourly into our packs or running with a group for a rare chest run. Putting the ingame acquisition of keys behind completion of the black book and Mordor questline - cap, was purely cynical, just to get people to buy keys. Even the mis-information that you could get maybe only 3 keys a week further fuelled the notion that key purchases were your only option.

    Another point is that many players just drift through the game, have done since they started, because the game was so dumbed down by that stage. They don't read forums or BR patch notes, not even release notes and the colour on a dyed cloak is more important than a +14 LoE drop. This player is not going to be pre-warned to keep the spare legs and chest at lvl 112 for swappies, heavens swappies are for cosmetic outfits. They'll likely have 70+ trait points so aren't able to utilise stronger builds or maximise what they could do even. They aren't to know which item to get for each slot, where they can do a quest for this or that item, or where crafting can fill a slot. But they are prime candidates for spending in the store, if they aren't just turned off from venturing into Mordor all together.


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  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    No you dont get -40% outgoing damage debuff on that tier. But this just continues theme of throw out opinions based on random self made up statistics. Like players entering TU with 30 light...
    Ermm, nobody said anything about players having to enter TU with 30 light. Where are you reading that from please? Quote it. Gathering all quest rewards from Udun, DA and Lhingris and gathering the 6 chests in those three areas that are NOT in level 115 areas (the others are), will give a player 58 LoE.

    Arrival at TU (the stable at Mash Ashtu) is 50 shadow, so no problem there. Ride a little down the road and you're in 70 Shadow (on the main path), enter a camp and you're in 80 shadow. Yes, a real problem. Have you even run the area? I'm beginning to wonder, being how misinformed you are. Either that, or you are the one in here misrepresenting the facts. Maybe you didn't notice the high shadow content of TU, because of your high LoE from drops. I seriously doubt you ran TU with 40 shadow. That would indeed have put you in 30 LoE, which you claim, is errrm rubbish.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Nov 17 2017 at 10:01 AM.
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  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Ermm, nobody said anything about players having to enter TU with 30 light. Where are you reading that from please? Quote it. Gathering all quest rewards from Udun, DA and Lhingris and gathering the 6 chests in those three areas that are NOT in level 115 areas (the others are), will give a player 58 LoE.

    Arrival at TU (the stable at Mash Ashtu) is 50 shadow, so no problem there. Ride a little down the road and you're in 70 Shadow (on the main path), enter a camp and you're in 80 shadow. Yes, a real problem. Have you even run the area? I'm beginning to wonder, being how misinformed you are. Either that, or you are the one in here misrepresenting the facts. Maybe you didn't notice the high shadow content of TU, because of your high LoE from drops. I seriously doubt you ran TU with 40 shadow. That would indeed have put you in 30 LoE, which you claim, is errrm rubbish.
    It's good you can spot yourself to pick my post like that.

    You clearly haven't paid attention. I used my Raid gear long till Mordor. I refused to wear most of quest gear because setup I had made for myself and wanted to use it because way I use essences and set bonuses and I was fine with it. No reason to complain about it if I choose to do so myself.

    Also I did mordor questing before there was any drops in landscape (boxes or mob drops, all this was added one of the latest builds before release) with many other players and we did it, it was totally fine, and this was before multiple nerfs Mordor received even. Do you even know sparring pit was like 3x harder it's now... It was nerffed after first beta and 2nd time after release.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    It's good you can spot yourself to pick my post like that.

    You clearly haven't paid attention. I used my Raid gear long till Mordor. I refused to wear most of quest gear because setup I had made for myself and wanted to use it because way I use essences and set bonuses and I was fine with it. No reason to complain about it if I choose to do so myself.

    Also I did mordor questing before there was any drops in landscape (boxes or mob drops, all this was added one of the latest builds before release) with many other players and we did it, it was totally fine, and this was before multiple nerfs Mordor received even. Do you even know sparring pit was like 3x harder it's now... It was nerffed after first beta and 2nd time after release.

    I've not spotted anything. I asked you, who said anything about entering TU with 30 light? I see you don't have an answer for it, and that is not surprising seeing that nobody did say it. What happened on Beta isn't relevant, what's happening on live and what happens when it changes is.

    So, I gather from your answer that you did run TU in 40 shadow? That would mean you ran it with 30 LoE right? But that can't be right, as you seem to think that some poster suggesting any player should run TU with 30 light (which nobody has by the way, and if they had, you'd have quoted it, so please, stop spreading that stuff around here in an official thread) is being absurd, which completely contradicts the notion that you could even if you tried.How you run Mordor is up to you, but that doesn't mean everyone else is going to, or even want to run it the way you do. Naerband t2c still too hard for many? Well, all I have to say to that then, using your approach is, it's been cleared, and if they can do it - then it's fine as it is. Somehow, I don't think that will be ok with quite a lot of players though.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Nov 17 2017 at 10:48 AM.
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  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    No you dont get -40% outgoing damage debuff on that tier. But this just continues theme of throw out opinions based on random self made up statistics. Like players entering TU with 30 light...
    Ok so I know when I had 80 light in a 100 darkness area I had +20% incoming damage and -20% outgoing damage and heals. I based my numbers on that, so if it is different I will admit I was wrong, I thought it would stack by 10% increments.

    So please, clarify what is the debuff you get with -40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    Ok so I know when I had 80 light in a 100 darkness area I had +20% incoming damage and -20% outgoing damage and heals. I based my numbers on that, so if it is different I will admit I was wrong, I thought it would stack by 10% increments.

    So please, clarify what is the debuff you get with -40
    With +40 shadow you get -20% incoming heals, +40% incoming damage and -20% outgoing damage.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  23. #148
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    6,138
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    With +40 shadow you get -20% incoming heals, +40% incoming damage and -20% outgoing damage.
    thanks I was not able to log in to check but still -20% damage and +40% incoming damage I severly doubt someone soloed all of Mordor (at lost the last 2 areas) like that... and optop of it, got the rare chest that were in the 100+ shadow areas
    I saw the light fade from the sky
    On the wind I heard a sigh
    As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers
    I will say this last goodbye

 

 
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