We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 26
  1. #1

    @Vastin, PvMP Specific Numerical Feedback

    Copy and pasted from the official Patch Notes, a compilation of sorts:

    VASTIN:

    I'm sure I echo all the PvPers by saying "thank you" for the time put into PvP, and while these changes were only minor adjustments, it was definitely a step in the right direction.

    Please check your Private Messages, Vastin!


    As for feedback, here's a brief summation of changes (the boring math and balance discussion is at the bottom for those interested:

    All stat changes were calculated by a Warg with no buffs, no corruptions of any kind slotted. Stats will vary depending on class. Most numbers are rounded. It appears that the buffs originated from passives depending on the class. However, these numbers will be similar amongst all Creep classes (see more below).

    CRITICAL RATING: Base stat decreased from 7000 to 0. % decreased from 7.8% to 4.4%

    FINESSE: Base stat increased from 11k to 20k. % increase from 3.6% to 5.9%
    Notes: Finesse has been removed as a Rank bonus. Commentary on this below.

    CRITICAL DEFENSE: Base stat increased from 3000 to 4000. % increased from 6.7% to 8.7%

    BASE RESISTANCE: Base stat increase from 4800 to 20,000. % increased from 3% to 11.4%

    BLOCK: Base stat increased from 2400 to 13,700. % increased from 1.4% to 5.8%

    EVADE: Base stat increased from 13,400 to 27,400. % increased from 5.8% to 9%

    PARRY: Base stat increased from 10,000 to 21,500. % increased from 4.7% to 7.8%

    SPECIFIC RESISTANCE (CRY): Base stat increased from 11,000 to 45,000. % increased from 6.6% to 22.4%

    PHYSICAL MITIGATION: Base stat increased from 36,000 to 48,000. % increased from 38.1% to 44.2%

    TACTICAL MITIGATION: Base stat increased from 6400 to 18,300. % increased from 11% to 26.3%

    MORALE: Increased from 127k to 136k. Increase of 7%

    INCOMING HEALING: Stat is completely removed. It is removed from Rank gain, and removed from Creep stats in general.

    ---


    BALANCE DISCUSSION

    Overall, this is a step in the right direction. Defensive stats have received major and minor buffs. Also some interesting changes in terms of incoming healing and Finesse, more on that below.

    CRITICAL RATING BALANCE: Crit Rating did NOT need a nerf- in fact, 3 crit corruptions slotted should cap critical rating at 30%. Critical MAGNITUDE is the issue with Creeps (specifically with Wargs), NOT crit rating/percentage. Currently 3 Critical Rating corruptions puts Crit Rating at 38,000 base stat. 65,000 base stat seems to be approximately the Critical Rating required to cap %, so base Critical Rating for Creeps needs to be scaled up by 25,000. This will put base Creep critical rating at 15%.

    More on Crit Rating and overall Creep DPS below

    FINESSE BALANCE: Taking Finesse off of Rank was an interesting change. However, with the number of corruptions slots Creeps have, slotting Finesse corruptions is still not an option. [B] I think we need to revert Finesse back to Rank contribution, however base Finesse must be increased across the board. I have the exact numbers needed to add for Rank bonus and base for Rank 0 Creeps.
    Across the Board, Creeps need 17k more Finesse. This will put Base Finesse at Rank 0 at 10%. At Rank 15, Base Finesse needs to be 89k, which is 19%. 89--17= 72k. This means Rank will contribute a maximum of 72k Finesse spread out across 15 ranks. The simple math is 4.8k Finesse needs to be contributed per rank, 1-15.

    CRITICAL DEFENSE BALANCE: The 1k increase of Critical Defense is almost irrelevant. Base Critical Defense for Wargs used to be 20%, it is now 8.7% on BR. Insult to injury is the increased Critical Magnitude Freeps have with their ILIs.
    The critical defense stat is calculated a little different, so I don't have any hard numbers. However, my best estimation is that Creeps need an additional 15k base Critical defense to bring it back to a reasonable level. Critical Magnitude has exploded since Base Crit D was established for Creeps, and this will help compensate by increasing base Critical Defense from what it was on 105 to 115 by around 9-10%.

    RESISTANCE BALANCE: I'm unsure as to what Resist was prior update, but from a relatively uneducated standpoint, I think Resist is fine. It received a significant buff.

    BPE BALANCE: Echoed what was said for Resist. Major buffs, and I'm relatively unsure as to what they were at 105 cap. I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it. These buffs are probably enough.

    PHYSICAL MITIGATION: The buff to base stat was pretty good, but it could be more. Keep in mind, that with both this and Tact Mit need to be buffed in terms of base stat, but the corruptions could use nerfs. Math below:
    I'd suggest a buff of 10k to base stat (ON BULLROARER) and a reduction of 1200 on each Physical Mitigation Corruption (reducing the contribution from 7636 to 6436). This will slightly reduce the effectiveness of over-stacking against a certain damage type, but buff balanced defensive builds.

    TACTICAL MITIGATION: The stat seems to be in a slightly better position with the buffs than Physical Mitigation. Math below:
    I'd suggest a buff of 8k to base stat (ON BULLROARER) and a reduction of 1000 on each Tactical Mitigation Corruption (reducing the contribution from 7636 to 6636). This will slightly reduce the effectiveness of over-stacking against a certain damage type, but buff balanced defensive builds.

    MORALE: Seems fine.

    INCOMING HEALING: There is no visible stat for Incoming Healing, but removing this from Rank, I believe, was a mistake. Even if Vastin would like to see it removed from rank, removing it Creepside overall is a mistake. Please revert all things done to this stat.

    GLOBAL INCOMING DAMAGE: Currrently set at 40% from Audacity, able to be further reduced by Tome of Defense, Gift of Carrock buff, and -4% incoming damage food. I suggest increase base Audacity damage reduction to 45%/

    ---

    CRITICAL MAGNITUDE vs MASTERY

    At the moment, Creeps relying heavily off of Criticals, and the Critical Magnitude overly helping Wargs in comparison to other Creeps is an issue. I vouch for removing the Critical Magnitude entirely from the Critical Corruptions, and significantly buffing Mastery across the board for Creeps.

    The goal for slower fights across the board means Creep damage overall might dip slightly, but this is being compensated by significantly increased defensives.

    I will do my best to give some rough estimates on what this should look like.

    Currently, with 1 Creep Outpost, 5 Mastery slotted increased base damage by about 30.6% (an increase of 38,180). I suggest for next round of Bullroarer completely removing Critical Magnitude from Corruptions, and adding 35k Mastery to Creeps. To prevent from Mastery stacking too high, reduce Mastery Corruptions by 1000 (from 7636 to 6636).

    It'd be incredibly complicated to find out just exactly what hard numbers will work to keep Creep damage relevant, but preventing it from too bursty. Perhaps attempting a change along these lines will provide some useful testing info.

    ---

    WHERE THESE BUFFS CAME FROM

    OK, so thanks to my friend Boogiiman (Lioncourt on the forums), it seems these Creeps buffs originated from Creep Base attributes (Damage, Health, Power, Armor, Avoidance, Resistance)



    So Creep Classes that have higher or lower stats based on that standard will have a different experience. For example, WLs/Defilers/Reavers received slightly more Critical Defense/Mitigations than Wargs did. However, it's still not enough, and the discrepancies between the base stat contributions isn't that crazy. For example, a Warg is Tier 2 in the Armor Category, and received 1k additional Critical Defense. Defiler is Tier 3, and only received 500 more (1500). My original post is still relevant with the buffs required, it may just need to be modified slightly for each class, with the minor discrepancies between what each Class received in terms of stat buffs.


    ETC. Thoughts:

    1. Racial Traits for Creeps are still not scaled. When these are scaled, keep in mind that they should be relevant but minor in terms of what they add. Currently they are irrelevant, but we don't want them to add too much.

    2. I'm sure several things like Warleader Banner Debuffs/Buffs aren't scaled. Can anyone who plays any class in need of better scaled buffs/debuffs please speak up?

    3. Burglar/Hunter possibly will still need Moors-specific nerfs.

    4. Still need to examine the possibility of standardization for Freeps, whether that's Stat Caps or Mandatory Audacity armor. This may also resolve some issues with BPE/Resist for Creeps being "too high," when the reality is that it's just too difficult to get decent amount of certain stats (Finesse in this instance) for Freeps.

    Hope this helps, Vastin. Keep up the good work.
    --

    VASTIN

    BPE/Resist numbers may be too high for Creeps considering Finesse is extremely difficult for Freeps to stack properly. Either we may need to consider lowering BPE/Resist for Creeps, or Finesse needs to be given in great amounts in Audacity gear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Starkorm View Post
    Yes. The tooltips on the skills themselves were slightly increased compared to live, however the loss of incoming healing makes the boost irrelevant.

    Tooltips increased about 2-3%.
    My WL is r13, ~35% incoming healing.

    Beta:
    Crack the Whip applied a heal to Telcely restoring 13,810 points to Morale.
    Quit Whining and Fight applied a heal to Telcely restoring 18,920 points to Morale.
    Quit Whining and Fight applied a critical heal to Telcely restoring 28,380 points to Morale.

    Live:
    Crack the Whip applied a heal to Telcely restoring 18,088 points to Morale.
    Quit Whining and Fight applied a heal to Telcely restoring 24,781 points to Morale.
    Quit Whining and Fight applied a critical heal to Telcely restoring 38,476 points to Morale.

    On the brightside, people will care even less if I afk during a raid. Glorified aura and rez bot.





    The banners to the left are from 105, the banners to the right are 115.
    Command - Wasn't buffed. Pretty sure the icpr/icmr has been at the same spot since 75 at least. Someone who's good at math can tell me if that Command damage buff actually needs to be buffed or not, I sure as hell don't care on my WL how much it increases my dps.
    Point-Defence - BPE and Resist were decently scaled I guess. However, the mitigation buff was pitifully scaled. Bringing it in slightly above where the BPE is at on the banner should be more like what it was pre-expansion (useful).
    Horror - Resist rating debuff should be fine if finesse is scaled properly now for creeps. The mitigation debuff is horribly scaled however. Scaling it to whatever it you buff +mitigation to on Point-Defence should be enough to make freeps actually notice it.
    Terror - Given the current levels of mastery and might freeps are currently able to attain, I suggest scaling the tact mast debuff higher, and either swapping might for a direct phys might debuff or making it equal to whatever the tact mast rating is scaled to. As it is, the might debuff lowers melee damage far more than the tact mastery one does. Melee gets trashed on enough as is, I think they'd appreciate it if the tacticals were as badly hurt by debuffs as well.

    I haven't actually PvPed since Mordor was released, so someone with a better...grasp of how freeps are doing with these debuffs on them would be better able to tell you how to scale them so they aren't outrageously OP. Regardless, they still clearly need to be scaled in potency to deal with the giant stat bloat we got with Mordor.

    Note: Looks like the defiler debuffs were scaled, but WL debuffs were not. Bringing WL debuffs to the same range as defiler's is probably a good step.

    P.S.
    I wrote in Spilo's post in red the stat scaling for WL, I couldn't be bothered to write it all down at 7 in the morning, will finish it up later.
    Agree with all of this here. For hard number suggestions:

    Command; 20xcurrent Morale Regen (4800 in-combat regen) and 5x the power regen (525 in-combat power regen). Command outgoing damage from 10% to 15% to better match outgoing damage scaling.

    Point-Defence: BPE/Resist enough, mitigations should increased to 5.5k

    Horror: Same as above, -5.5k mitigation

    Terror: Tact Mastery should probably be increased to 12-15k, and should be mirrored with Physical Mastery as well. -% damage should be increased from 10% to 25%.


    ---

    OK, so thanks to my friend Boogiiman (Lioncourt on the forums), it seems these Creeps buffs originated from Creep Base attributes (Damage, Health, Power, Armor, Avoidance, Resistance)



    So Creep Classes that have higher or lower stats based on that standard will have a different experience. For example, WLs/Defilers/Reavers received slightly more Critical Defense/Mitigations than Wargs did. However, it's still not enough, and the discrepancies between the base stat contributions isn't that crazy. For example, a Warg is Tier 2 in the Armor Category, and received 1k additional Critical Defense. Defiler is Tier 3, and only received 500 more (1500). My original post is still relevant with the buffs required, it may just need to be modified slightly for each class, with the minor discrepancies between what each Class received in terms of stat buffs.

    ---
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 13 Warg, Arkenstone~

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    192
    I think health shoyld be increased in beta I see nothing but ppl with 110k health doing crazy dmg

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    182
    Burgs are still destroying ANY creeps they like, NERF BURGS is all you HAVE TO do Pointdexter!

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    192
    Quote Originally Posted by ScribeEzra View Post
    Burgs are still destroying ANY creeps they like, NERF BURGS is all you HAVE TO do Pointdexter!
    naaa if we raise creep health to like 250-300k burgs will do fine (this is of course implying that all crit hit get nerfed)

  5. #5
    On our server, we can handle most 115 burgs just fine. It’s the 105s that are doing the Uber damage... I believe this was identified as the Raid gear scaling which initiated a long conversation on how audacity needs to be a MUST to survive as a Freep- scale it vs a flat defense. That way if folks don’t have it, they get one-shorted right back.

    Aak/Cor

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Michel Delving
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    naaa if we raise creep health to like 250-300k burgs will do fine (this is of course implying that all crit hit get nerfed)
    Not sure if serious or trolling, but raising creepside morale pools wont fix anything. Barrage is broken (one can proc Barrage Tier 3 multiple times in a row with focus regen, when its supposed to go back down to tier 1), Merciful Shot hits like a truck regardless of mits, and obviously, CDG is broken with the damage not showing up in combat logs if its applied from stealth, and the critical multiplier on that skill in general is flawed. This is coming from someone who mained a burglar for 4 years and likes the class, but I wont deny that skill in particular needs fixing.

    I'd say make CDG a % health remaining skill, but then it just becomes another broken variation of merciful shot so...

    Regardless, more morale wont fix these issues — it will just take two CDGs instead of 1 to insta-kill a creep, and burgs already group up in pairs in most cases. Raising mits and resistances for creepside is a good start, but honestly, imo SSG should take a look back at 100 cap when things weren't so skewed with critical multipliers...

    We used to have 24 vs 24 raids a couple years ago (at 100 cap) on Gladden that would go on for a while every time the groups collided because raids had to actually focus targets together to burn them down. This made raids more exciting and fun because the outcome could tip either way in the course of the fight. These days its whoever can land the bigger critcal first...with 1 skill KO classes (burgs + merc. shot hunters), or 1 skill spam (bestial claws or eye rake on warg, barrage on hunters). Personally, I think criticals are skewed towards freeps, as they have built in critcal % chances with trait points, rather than having to place multiple crit corruptions in their precious 12 total slots. For creeps, its either glass-cannon or all-mits, pretty much a pick-your-poison scenario. Obviously for wargs this isn't so bad because of HIPs, but for the other classes, they are left in limbo.

    Your last statement would require a big "if" with crit hits get nerfed, but I suppose one can dream. Its been said before by people like Spilo and Gil who post a lot on balance issues, but I'll repeat it again: the classes with the majority of their damage resulting from critical hits atm: Red Champ, Red Burg, Blue Hunter (but one could argue Red line too with 70% health Merc. Shot), shadow stance Wargs, and even Spiders (particularly with Toxin) to some degree, are all "OP" in their respective ways due to the magnitude built into critical hits. Not sure who the genius was at Turbine that came up with "devastating criticals", but it sure makes things a headache these days. Untangling crit magnitude is likely not something SSG would put their efforts into, as it would effect every class differently. Would be nice to see an inhibitor while in the Moors however.

    Solid feedback on your part Spilo, keep it up, and hopefully Vastin will take note of your efforts to do the calculations for them lol.

    ~Throllo
    Servers: Bullroarer, Gladden, Landroval (new primary), Arkenstone (Grimmtail)
    Long live Dwarrowdelf server! You shall be missed!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    192
    Quote Originally Posted by fmac81 View Post
    Not sure if serious or trolling, but raising creepside morale pools wont fix anything. Barrage is broken (one can proc Barrage Tier 3 multiple times in a row with focus regen, when its supposed to go back down to tier 1), Merciful Shot hits like a truck regardless of mits, and obviously, CDG is broken with the damage not showing up in combat logs if its applied from stealth, and the critical multiplier on that skill in general is flawed. This is coming from someone who mained a burglar for 4 years and likes the class, but I wont deny that skill in particular needs fixing.

    I'd say make CDG a % health remaining skill, but then it just becomes another broken variation of merciful shot so...

    Regardless, more morale wont fix these issues — it will just take two CDGs instead of 1 to insta-kill a creep, and burgs already group up in pairs in most cases. Raising mits and resistances for creepside is a good start, but honestly, imo SSG should take a look back at 100 cap when things weren't so skewed with critical multipliers...

    We used to have 24 vs 24 raids a couple years ago (at 100 cap) on Gladden that would go on for a while every time the groups collided because raids had to actually focus targets together to burn them down. This made raids more exciting and fun because the outcome could tip either way in the course of the fight. These days its whoever can land the bigger critcal first...with 1 skill KO classes (burgs + merc. shot hunters), or 1 skill spam (bestial claws or eye rake on warg, barrage on hunters). Personally, I think criticals are skewed towards freeps, as they have built in critcal % chances with trait points, rather than having to place multiple crit corruptions in their precious 12 total slots. For creeps, its either glass-cannon or all-mits, pretty much a pick-your-poison scenario. Obviously for wargs this isn't so bad because of HIPs, but for the other classes, they are left in limbo.

    Your last statement would require a big "if" with crit hits get nerfed, but I suppose one can dream. Its been said before by people like Spilo and Gil who post a lot on balance issues, but I'll repeat it again: the classes with the majority of their damage resulting from critical hits atm: Red Champ, Red Burg, Blue Hunter (but one could argue Red line too with 70% health Merc. Shot), shadow stance Wargs, and even Spiders (particularly with Toxin) to some degree, are all "OP" in their respective ways due to the magnitude built into critical hits. Not sure who the genius was at Turbine that came up with "devastating criticals", but it sure makes things a headache these days. Untangling crit magnitude is likely not something SSG would put their efforts into, as it would effect every class differently. Would be nice to see an inhibitor while in the Moors however.

    Solid feedback on your part Spilo, keep it up, and hopefully Vastin will take note of your efforts to do the calculations for them lol.

    ~Throllo
    Creeps will now have mits, 3 and 3 gets me to 60% phy mit CDg at most will do 200k dmg, take away 60% that a 90k hit on a creep rn that’s still a big hit but if creeps had 230k+ health then.....and same goes for merciful shot and barrage

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Creeps will now have mits, 3 and 3 gets me to 60% phy mit CDg at most will do 200k dmg, take away 60% that a 90k hit on a creep rn that’s still a big hit but if creeps had 230k+ health then.....and same goes for merciful shot and barrage
    Increasing morale is never a correct fix - just as an eg - reaver mits are higher at higher morale, imagine how low you'd have to get a mit stacked reaver before getting some decent hits, and also wrath - the heals would be ridiculously large. In short - morale increase, NO.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    91
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Creeps will now have mits, 3 and 3 gets me to 60% phy mit CDg at most will do 200k dmg, take away 60% that a 90k hit on a creep rn that’s still a big hit but if creeps had 230k+ health then.....and same goes for merciful shot and barrage
    This is the kind of feedback that they (the SSG developer team) are NOT looking for. They don't need excessive hyperbole from players who clearly pull out random numbers from thin air.

    Just imagine a warg or spider with 230k+ health.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Michel Delving
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Creeps will now have mits, 3 and 3 gets me to 60% phy mit CDg at most will do 200k dmg, take away 60% that a 90k hit on a creep rn that’s still a big hit but if creeps had 230k+ health then.....and same goes for merciful shot and barrage
    Mits and crit defence mean absolutely nothing when burglar skills bypass them from stealth. Just because you have 60% mits =/= skills of that damage type doing -60% damage. If that were the case, I would run around with 80% mits on reaver and take hardly any damage... Moreover, CDG is 3 hits, and mits seem to only be in effect for the first strike (although not entirely sure about this).

    Increasing morale would do zilch except delay death by a second or two. The problem lies in crit magnitude, as I wrote before. CDG has hit me for close to 250k total on reaver and I had 3 of each mit, and has hit me for close to 270k when I had 3 of each mi,t plus improved flayer on warg (and the 7.5% phys mit race trait etc). With all likelihood that the LI dps tiers will increase in the future, CDG damage will rise as well.

    Increasing mits and resistances on creeps is a start, but there will still be plenty remaining to adjust on the other side for it to actually be worthwhile.

    ~Throllo
    Last edited by fmac81; Nov 20 2017 at 11:59 AM.
    Servers: Bullroarer, Gladden, Landroval (new primary), Arkenstone (Grimmtail)
    Long live Dwarrowdelf server! You shall be missed!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    192
    Quote Originally Posted by fmac81 View Post
    Mits and crit defence mean absolutely nothing when burglar skills bypass them from stealth. Just because you have 60% mits ? skills of that damage type doing -60% damage. If that were the case, I would run around with 80% mits on reaver and take hardly any damage... Moreover, CDG is 3 hits, and mits seem to only be in effect for the first strike (although not entirely sure about this).

    Increasing morale would do zilch except delay death by a second or two. The problem lies in crit magnitude, as I wrote before. CDG has hit me for close to 250k total on reaver and I had 3 of each mit, and has hit me for close to 270k when I had 3 of each mi,t plus improved flayer on warg (and the 7.5% phys mit race trait etc). With all likelihood that the LI dps tiers will increase in the future, CDG damage will rise as well.

    Increasing mits and resistances on creeps is a start, but there will still be plenty remaining to adjust on the other side for it to actually be worthwhile.

    ~Throllo
    Ionly is right I did pull the number out of my ###. I’m just suggesting an increase of health. Your saying that crit magnitude is the issue, I agree but that is something that’s not gonna be fixed. So the easiest thing to do is to increase moral. Freeps already have very good defences with the pvp gear

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Ionly is right I did pull the number out of my ###. I’m just suggesting an increase of health. Your saying that crit magnitude is the issue, I agree but that is something that’s not gonna be fixed. So the easiest thing to do is to increase moral. Freeps already have very good defences with the pvp gear
    Why are you insistent on a fast pass of increasing morale? It's a ridiculous idea and always causes more difficulty than help. Creep morale is fine as it is, defences need to be up-ed as the numbers above are suggesting - fights need to last longer, but this should not be done through an increase of morale.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, Vastin here.



    I will also be looking at trying to get the dps/vitality ratios of the two sides more similar looking, so that one side isn't a huge bag of HP with low DPS and vice versa - it's much easier to manage balance when the two sides are using sets of numbers that at least resemble each other.


    -Vastin
    Vastin already stated that he doesn't like hitpoint sponges so I guess creep dps will go up and morale will go down.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,651
    Quote Originally Posted by Esterian View Post
    Vastin already stated that he doesn't like hitpoint sponges so I guess creep dps will go up and morale will go down.
    Uhh... I certainly hope not. That's going to real messy. If anything, freep morale should go up, and creep damage should go up.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Michel Delving
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Ionly is right I did pull the number out of my ###. I’m just suggesting an increase of health.
    Well, at least you're honest about where the numbers came from...

    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Your saying that crit magnitude is the issue, I agree but that is something that’s not gonna be fixed. So the easiest thing to do is to increase moral.
    "Easiest" thing to do, eh? This is exactly the same sort of thinking that got Creeps into this mess in the first place — Turbine would just do a flat 10% morale increase rather than scale any other stats and call it good.

    Spilo's analysis is about as thorough as it can be from a player with no access to any in-game developer tools. Fingers crossed that Vastin actually takes a look and considers implementing some, if not all of his feedback for testing on BR.

    ~Throllo
    Servers: Bullroarer, Gladden, Landroval (new primary), Arkenstone (Grimmtail)
    Long live Dwarrowdelf server! You shall be missed!

  16. #16
    Thanks for the kind words, Throllo. Most of my suggestions evolved from talking to a lot of Freeps/Creeps who had better ideas and more active minds than mine. I just tried to compile them.

    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    Ionly is right I did pull the number out of my ###. I’m just suggesting an increase of health. Your saying that crit magnitude is the issue, I agree but that is something that’s not gonna be fixed. So the easiest thing to do is to increase moral. Freeps already have very good defences with the pvp gear
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    - Combat appears to just be too quick and bursty at the moment (at least with several classes), so I'll be examining if it makes sense to rebalance crit magnitude vs crit mitigation to favor the latter more heavily in base stats and/or corruptions, which should have the effect of slowing down both sides to some degree. Improving base Creep mitigations and possibly nerfing certain high-burst creep skills would hopefully round that out, and maybe get duels back into the 30-60 second range, rather than the 5-15 second range, which is too quick for this style of combat.


    Buffing Creep morale isn't going to address the discrepancy between Spiders/Wargs and the rest of the Creep classes. It's the same reason why Burgs/Hunters and possibly Minstrels need to be nerfed, but not other Freeps.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 13 Warg, Arkenstone~

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,354
    I dont think creeps need that much damage than currently. Lower their morales to around 100-120k and make them take significantly less critical damage, give freeps -xx% critical damage debuff when entering moors. And a bit more base damage reduction to creeps. This way game could entirely nerf big freep critical hits from the game and make freep dps way less burst rng crit depending.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,651
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    I dont think creeps need that much damage than currently. Lower their morales to around 100-120k and make them take significantly less critical damage, give freeps -xx% critical damage debuff when entering moors. And a bit more base damage reduction to creeps. This way game could entirely nerf big freep critical hits from the game and make freep dps way less burst rng crit depending.
    This would also inadvertently reduce the effectiveness of champions even further, though. Same for red captains. I don't think that's the right path to take, simply because it will affect classes that don't need a damage nerf.

    Of course I understand that every freep class needs a damage nerf if creeps health is lowered, I mean that some freep classes need more of a nerf than others, otherwise it's pointless to do any of this in the first place.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    192
    Quote Originally Posted by Esterian View Post
    Vastin already stated that he doesn't like hitpoint sponges so I guess creep dps will go up and morale will go down.
    If this is true then I take back what I said, but at the same time this is not gonna a be a simple thing to achieve, hunters hit for 60k per pen shot, champs do 50-60 with remorseless strike, are they gonna scale creep Dps so it looks like that?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,651
    Quote Originally Posted by sahanto View Post
    If this is true then I take back what I said, but at the same time this is not gonna a be a simple thing to achieve, hunters hit for 60k per pen shot, champs do 50-60 with remorseless strike, are they gonna scale creep Dps so it looks like that?
    This is, again, made up. Please refrain from posting fictitious numbers in a thread titled "Numerical Feedback".

    Those numbers might be accurate when there are all kinds of debuffs/buffs involved, but they are definitely not common. Making it seem like champions are in an overpowered state isn't doing anyone any favours, either. Champions are fine from a PvP perspective, except for being too reliant on crits.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    182
    Your all pissing uphill into the wind.....the only way to balance is to get rid of essence armour from moors also li's too,,,get aud gear and rank improved weapons and it will be far easier to balance every update

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    4,029
    Even if crit magnitude is peeled back in favour of crit defence, I'm not sure how creeps are going to fare. Creeps having a larger morale pool as a faction was balanced in the sense that while freep DPS was higher, they had higher defences to pierce through. Vice versa for creeps, who had lower DPS, but not as high defences to pierce through to kill a target.

    The overall point is that relative to each factions DPS and defences everything was balanced proportionally.
    "Oh, a hunter took off 35-50% of my morale with one skill? Let's watch the same happen to them with a VT..."

    Of course that's all been lopsided for awhile now. But given that's pretty much how the basic form of PvMP has always been, I'm really struggling to see how this is going to change simply from fast passes on creeps basic stats, and no balancing on freeps.
    Last edited by Constrictions; Nov 18 2017 at 08:58 PM.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Michel Delving
    Posts
    109
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    This would also inadvertently reduce the effectiveness of champions even further, though. Same for red captains. I don't think that's the right path to take, simply because it will affect classes that don't need a damage nerf.

    Of course I understand that every freep class needs a damage nerf if creeps health is lowered, I mean that some freep classes need more of a nerf than others, otherwise it's pointless to do any of this in the first place.
    As much as I agree with you here, Gil, I think that Slipperi had a good suggestion. Having a passive -xx% crit magnitude for freeps in the moors wouldn't effect PvE that way, and things could start to become more balanced. Obviously, there would have to be some tweaking involved, but fights would start lasting longer than the 10-15s "zergs" they are now of who can proc a crit hit first.

    I do agree that Champs are very crit reliant, yes, so perhaps some sort of reworking of Red Line in particular to not be as crit dependent? Personally, I think that a passive -% crit magnitude for freepside in the Moors is ultimately the way to go. Whether or not this will ever happen is another topic altogether. Depending on how much of a -% crit magnitude passive in the moors, I think Champions would be fine, honestly. Testing -15% or -20% magnitude for freeps would be interesting to try on BR. Anything higher would likely be excessive.

    For what its worth, Red Line also has "Continuous Blood Rage" going for em. That skill annoys me far more than the critical hits.

    ~Throllo
    Servers: Bullroarer, Gladden, Landroval (new primary), Arkenstone (Grimmtail)
    Long live Dwarrowdelf server! You shall be missed!

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Switzerland
    Posts
    398
    Why are you guys bothering. One man can't possible fix multiple issues: Class Balance (10 Classes with 3 trait line each), LI (Imbument), PvP Balance (6 more Classes), Gear Itemisation, Stat conversion formulas the list keeps going.
    Many players are quiting with this lootbox endgame. Better to just abandon this *project*.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,651
    Quote Originally Posted by fmac81 View Post
    As much as I agree with you here, Gil, I think that Slipperi had a good suggestion. Having a passive -xx% crit magnitude for freeps in the moors wouldn't effect PvE that way, and things could start to become more balanced. Obviously, there would have to be some tweaking involved, but fights would start lasting longer than the 10-15s "zergs" they are now of who can proc a crit hit first.

    I do agree that Champs are very crit reliant, yes, so perhaps some sort of reworking of Red Line in particular to not be as crit dependent? Personally, I think that a passive -% crit magnitude for freepside in the Moors is ultimately the way to go. Whether or not this will ever happen is another topic altogether. Depending on how much of a -% crit magnitude passive in the moors, I think Champions would be fine, honestly. Testing -15% or -20% magnitude for freeps would be interesting to try on BR. Anything higher would likely be excessive.

    For what its worth, Red Line also has "Continuous Blood Rage" going for em. That skill annoys me far more than the critical hits.

    ~Throllo
    I am totally in favour of that, because I very much dislike the high dependancy on crits. All I tried to point out was that a straight -crit damage nerf to freeps would result in an even bigger disparity between the individual freep classes, which is not a good thing either.

    If it were up to me I would nerf crits into the ground and buff base damage to compensate, same for creeps.

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload