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  1. #1

    State of the Champion for the raid

    As the release of the raid comes near, I want to post my opinion about the state of the champion regarding the new raid and the chance for a champion to participate in it.
    Although the champion tank won’t be an alternative to guardian or captain in the raid, I will post something about it later. The classical raid spot for a champion is in his role as damage dealer, meaning he goes red line for single target damage or yellow line for area damage (or something between both of it)
    As far as we could see in the new raid, even for trash mobs there is needed much more crowd control than in the past. For a champion means this, you are not able to make free area damage because of stunned/rooted/feared enemys. So many times we need to go red line and have to deal damage in it and here starts the main problem for champions, the red line damage is way too low but i will go more into detail for every line itself

    Red Champion
    Generally this trait line feels good when you compare flow of skills, cooldowns and the scaling with 115.
    There is only one problem, but this is massive, the overall damage of a red champion is way too low!
    Compared to the other dps classes like hunter or runekeeper the champion has some disadvantages only because it is a melee class. As Champion you need to stuck on the enemy you want to damage, every second with the danger you get the attention of the mob and it kills you. Not to mention all the front damage or damaging fields the mobs have where the champion takes much more damage than the ranged classes. Furthermore as a Champion I need about 12-13 essences to reach the physical and tactical mitigation cap which is much more than the other damage classes which can stack more damage instead.
    But even if I ignore all these disadvantages and go full glass cannon and do the maximum damage I can, every hunter or runekeeper does more than twice the damage a champion can achieve.
    Just to clarify, I don’t want the champion to be overpowered and out-dps every other class, but I think he should deliver enough damage to be a viable option and currently it is not the case.
    With the new runes there was a possibility to push the damage dealt of a champion, sadly this runes just give a boost of 2% more damage with isn’t roughly enough to achieve the damage numbers of hunter/runekeeper. The runekeeper by contrast got his boost over the runes to be on par with the hunter regarding the outgoing damage.
    Hopefully there will be a change for the champion before the raid releases, otherwise it will be a sad update for this class as there will be no spot for one of the greatest classes of lotro

    Yellow Champion
    The general state of this skill tree is fine. There are only some minor adjustments to make the feeling of this trait line better.
    Rend: The armour reduction does not scale properly with the level. The mobs have so much more armour with level 115 so it does not feel worth to go for the amour reduction as it don’t give you the damage boost it gave before.
    Generally you have the problem, that you have enough fervor in this line, but all of the fervor consuming skills are in cooldown so you couldn’t use the fervor. Maybe reduce the cooldown of bladestorm as it is only available in the yellow line. For not getting too strong you can reduce the damage of the skill too, but the feeling of standing in the fight with no skill to use is gone.

    Blue Champion
    At the moment it is not worth to go for this trait line as there are too many skills which does not scale properly. There are needed some general adjustments to make this line function so the champion can be a tank again. He don’t has to be as strong as a guardian but it should be a working alternative.
    The following skills are not well-performing as they didn’t scale up from 105 to 115 regarding the morale you gained:
    Bracing Attack: Even with max legacy it only heals 3610 morale which is nothing compared to the morale pool. The incoming heal buff is fine.
    Sudden Defence: With max legacy and full fervor it gives a shield which protects you for 4650 damage points. Compared to the morale pool and the damage a boss deals you are wasting the fervor points for this skill. It should be a noticeable morale bubble to prevent you from damage.
    Dire Need: this skill reduces your actual power about 30% (34,7% with maxed legacy, I do not know if this works properly or it should add the +15,6% to the 30% so you consume 46,6% of the power) and heals you full traited for 400% of the lost power. This means with round about 6000 power you are healed for 8500 morale, depending of you incoming healing. As the only real panic button of a champion tank this heal is laughable low compared to warriors heart which heals you completely full or last stand which makes you immortal for a short duration as panic buttons for guardian and captain tanks. Even as it has a lower cooldown it should be a possibility to rescue the champion from the death.
    Unbreakable: This skill adds tactical mitigation and max morale for every hit taken and lasts for 12 seconds when it is at tier 10. When you go for champion blue line and tank you aim for getting the cap of tactical mitigation through your gear so the added tactical mitigation as value are over the mitigation cap and useless and the short duration at max stacks is not worth using this keystone skill from the blue trait line. For better usage of this deep blue line skill it should add percent of tactical mitigation as this can go over the cap and the duration should be longer, maybe 30 seconds so stacking this buff feels worth it.
    True heroics: it gives you -15% attack speed, some defensive stats are more useful like -incoming damage / +incoming heal / +%mitigation or something

    Further testing of the champion tank needs some adjustments of the skill above so I couldn’t give more feedback, if it can be worth going for this skill tree

    Last thing to comment about the champion are the planned setbonuses:
    Red Line: the lower cd of controlled burn is no great bonus but it is ok, when the outgoing damage in red line generally got boosted. Although controlled burn does not offer a great damage bonus, it is nice to have a lower cooldown on it. As an alternative bonus you might reduce the cooldwon of true heroics which is a greater damage boost or reduce the cooldown of bloodthirst which is more defensively with the high resistances and stun immunity or for a red line skill only reduce cooldown of Devastating Strike.
    Yellow Line: It is a raid set and in the raid you get enough heal so this bonus is useless as the higher proc chance of the 5% of max life heal is nothing a champion will aim for. As possible alternatives you can give great cleave a cooldown reduction of blade skills (maybe 20%) so you have more area skills to press when it is active.
    Blue Line: Probably one of the worst set bonus, as the damage reduction of blade wall is so low, you dont even recognize the longer duration of this buff. As a godd alternative add some tanky stuff like +incoming heal on sudden defence or some %-mitigation on sudden defence

  2. #2
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    Yellow is near perfection except for the little detail of not scaled armour reduction on rend.

    I spoke about red many times. ST dmg on red line is really too close to the ST yellow one.

    Red should be a way to boost dps on ST, not only a choice to avoid anti-aoe mechanics (reflects on adds, challenge that requires to not to kill adds etc). Cause atm that's what red is.

    It needs a little boost imho but is hard to explain to other players that having a working line (yellow) isnt an excuse to keep red too weak to be viable in raid.
    Last edited by Rialtan; Nov 06 2017 at 12:31 PM.
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  3. #3
    And lets don´t forget about bpe. On a lvl 105 target i can nearly reach rk dps on a singel target (with red line champ), if you test the same on lvl 115 mobs the dmg difference is much greater and most of this dps loos comes from partial/full evades (yes also from a lower crit rate, but the difference was just about 3-5%).
    Gertes

  4. #4
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    I couldn't agree more

    Red/Blue Line champs are totally useless for raids and even for some 6 man instances.

    Red champs need a lot of work. See "ebbing ire", why should we spent a point in that if we don't do enough damage to increase threat.
    Also 3 points in athletics? Really? A dps class with so low ST dmg wont need this.

    Blue line champs need to be scaled to the new level cap, most skills. An aoe taunt, even with a high cooldown, would help a lot too.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocker3388 View Post
    An aoe taunt, even with a high cooldown, would help a lot too.
    True heroics is an aoe taunt, with high cd
    Gertes

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwargin-Vanyar View Post

    Generally you have the problem, that you have enough fervor in this line, but all of the fervor consuming skills are in cooldown so you couldn’t use the fervor. Maybe reduce the cooldown of bladestorm as it is only available in the yellow line. For not getting too strong you can reduce the damage of the skill too, but the feeling of standing in the fight with no skill to use is gone.
    I think you should increase the dmg of blade storm not reducing (it has such a low priority in the rotation that lowering the cd won´t help, blade wall deals more dmg what is kinda ridiculus) it and imo you want nearly always full fervor, because its increase your skill dmg, so you want to press every skill with the maximum fervor posible.
    Last edited by Gertes; Nov 07 2017 at 08:31 AM.
    Gertes

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Gertes View Post
    I think you should increase the dmg of blade storm not reducing (it has such a low priority in the rotation that lowering the cd won´t help) it and imo you want nearly always full fervor, because its increase your skill dmg, so you want to press every skill with the maximum fervor posible.
    You have more than enough fervor for all of your fervor consuming skills to press them with full fervor bar, so its only an idea to have a better rotation with your consuming skills
    Reducing the cd and increasing the dmg of the skill will push the dps and i didnt want to suppose feedback to get my class too strong, just balanced to the other classes, and i think yellow line is fine as it is now. But I wont complain if they rise the dmg as it is really low compared to the other skills with 10seconds cooldown

  8. #8
    Ofc you have enough fervour for you consuming skills, but ideally you want to press every skill with max fervor so its often not worth it to press bladstorm. And i also don´t need a buff for yellow champ, when it comes to pure dmg, but lowering the cd of bladestorm will not help with anything.
    Adding more utility for the raid or give him something vs bpe will help much more, when we are looking at the usefullnes in the upcoming raid.
    Gertes

  9. #9
    Ok, I personally priorize bladestorm over swift strike or rend (when at 5 stacks) in the rotation, but I agree that some utility for the raid will be more helpful.
    And the main Problem is still the red line which is way too low, so we should focus more on it

  10. #10
    Most champs would love to see redline buffed, its such an fun way to play but sadly to weak. Something like the old Continuous Blood Rage, would be such a cool thing and also would add a nice dmg boost to redline.
    Gertes

  11. #11
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    I don't think you're going to see any changes here until people can actually convince SSG that class balance is something worth investing resources into in order to retain what remains of the dwindling playerbase.
    ~ Balance is a game of give and take, at the end of the day even Beornings need nerfs. ~

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    I don't think you're going to see any changes here until people can actually convince SSG that class balance is something worth investing resources into in order to retain what remains of the dwindling playerbase.
    I'm sure it's already come up in a board meeting or two, sometime over the last year or two. How else would this comment get made, on the PvMP forums no less?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    ... but we do have plans to go into PvE skill balance as well ...
    At the very least, community pressure on even a small comment like that has fundamentally changed the development direction of this game in the past. Now that we have something to grab onto, we just gotta wave the flag around like a bunch of Pentecostals, so that SSG get to the point that not addressing class balance will be a majorly bad PR issue.

    Reasonably of course. We should all know by now that SSG is pressed for resources.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Constrictions View Post
    I'm sure it's already come up in a board meeting or two, sometime over the last year or two. How else would this comment get made, on the PvMP forums no less?
    The problem is that they seem to have only put a single developer on the task of class balance. Vastin already pointed out that it's a pain to sort out a lot of the systems due to poor/absent documentation and that it takes them hours of crawling through code to work out where certain stats are coming from. It's not a one person job yet SSG insists on treating it like it is.

    SSG just isn't taking class balance seriously right now. As much as I like Vastin I feel like they are just a token gesture here; basically a way of saying "Hey look, we're working on that thing you keep talking about." without actually putting in the resources that the task requires.
    ~ Balance is a game of give and take, at the end of the day even Beornings need nerfs. ~

  14. #14
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    I more or less agree with the OP. Just want to mention that I certainly do not think that Rend needs to be scaled up. It would be outrageous for a pure DPS class to provide a debuff that increases raid damage by more than ~5%. Even 5% is valuable. There are dedicated classes/specialisations for these things.

    I understand that you got used to it, but Rend was never as strong as it was during lvl 105 cap, and it should never be in the future. The only reason it was that strong was because of the faltering LI system.

    Red Champions need a boost to base damage, and a reduction to critical damage.

  15. #15
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    Usability of champ is depending totally on do fights require AoE, if they do require heavy AoE champs are always must have as a pair.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I more or less agree with the OP. Just want to mention that I certainly do not think that Rend needs to be scaled up. It would be outrageous for a pure DPS class to provide a debuff that increases raid damage by more than ~5%. Even 5% is valuable. There are dedicated classes/specialisations for these things.

    I understand that you got used to it, but Rend was never as strong as it was during lvl 105 cap, and it should never be in the future. The only reason it was that strong was because of the faltering LI system.

    Red Champions need a boost to base damage, and a reduction to critical damage.
    This... rend was broken op... for a class that focuses strictly on dps (outlier lol blue lol), but managed to outdo classes with trait trees or skills dedicated to debuffing (with rend/horn). Mitigating crit mag with lower multiplier and increased base damage would be a great start to limiting the resources involved in making redline viable for pve.
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  17. #17
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    From what i've seen in recent ventures in Mordor instances and Beta raid , champ has very low chance of getting a spot.

    There are many reasons , some described already by previous players like return of CC , huge nerf to rend efficiency , mobs physical mitigations and anti-melee mechanics.
    Even when it comes to AOE , multiple ranged DPS stacking seems to play better and safer than champ...

    That said , the tooltip DPS , crit magnitude and AOE potential of the class is enormous... Not sure if a boost to rend to make it ridiculously OP again would be the proper answer.
    One of problems is that there is no debuffer than plays with champ as well as LM plays with RK/Hunter unless somehow warden comes into play..

    If it was up to me , i'd propably go for a decent boost to red line single target dps by adding penetration....

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    The problem is that they seem to have only put a single developer on the task of class balance. Vastin already pointed out that it's a pain to sort out a lot of the systems due to poor/absent documentation and that it takes them hours of crawling through code to work out where certain stats are coming from. It's not a one person job yet SSG insists on treating it like it is.

    SSG just isn't taking class balance seriously right now. As much as I like Vastin I feel like they are just a token gesture here; basically a way of saying "Hey look, we're working on that thing you keep talking about." without actually putting in the resources that the task requires.
    Couldn't agree more : D

    I always knew there were serious issues with broken/neglected or draft code.
    It felt funny to see it confirmed.
    Last edited by BotLike; Nov 07 2017 at 07:03 PM.

  18. #18
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    My list:
    • Fix Partial Avoidances
    • Reduce Melee Critical Magnitude (Legacy) significantly and let it also affect Devastates
    • Buff Strike skills base damage significantly (1.5-2x)
    • Scale skills that get no love from traits/legacies to justify their cost (Blade Storm, Born for Combat)
    • Buff skills that scale very poorlywith our current moral pools (Bracing Attack, Dire Need, Sudden Defence)
    • Fevour Management is non-existent (U14 changes need to be reverted/nerfed, only if the damage output can justify that!)
    • Add tweaks/improved version of skills we used to have before HD (optional)

  19. #19
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    The promise of class-balance is what brought me back to lotro. It really sounded like we would finally get a working game again. Now RK got buffed with the rune to compete with Hunter but Champion is left behind. Champs won't be needed in the Raid. Just throw your money at SSG and boost a Hunter is probably the solution the Devs offer us now. It seems like Champ still has to suffer for the 75-85 OP-State.
    Now they are doing Moors balance before balancing the classes. Yeah sounds smart to do that before Classes are balanced because doing the same thing several times is very efficient. I won't be supporting SSG until they REALLY improved the game not just make announcements.
    BTW please don't overshoot again and make the Champion overly OP so other classes can't compete. Try to balance things not compensate for earlier suffering.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by GilendirD View Post
    The promise of class-balance is what brought me back to lotro. It really sounded like we would finally get a working game again.
    Where did you hear about that?

  21. #21
    The really need to move Rend out of Yellow and make it a general skill.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Where did you hear about that?
    Vastin said they know class-balance a mess and they will fix it during Mordor expansion. But I'm sure you know that and just want to tease.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GilendirD View Post
    Vastin said they know class-balance a mess and they will fix it during Mordor expansion. But I'm sure you know that and just want to tease.
    They know this game is in a mess but thet don't have the ressources to increase longterm revenue so they try everything possible shortterm aka keys/solvents/fluffs etc.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by GilendirD View Post
    Vastin said they know class-balance a mess and they will fix it during Mordor expansion. But I'm sure you know that and just want to tease.
    I don't believe they have ever said anything concrete about plans to work on class balance.

    Vastin did chime in with this on my old class balance thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Whew. Long thread. My apologies as I only had a chance to read some of the opening elements.

    In any case, class balance is definitely something we want to address in coming updates. It's a mess in several places and we know it.

    Personally, my initial focus has been in trying to get a better functional floor under monster and content difficulty, refining the core ratings systems (which were unbelievably arcane before we revamped them), and refurbishing itemization. This also gives me a much firmer understanding of the basic value targets in the game, and the components that players will be using to reach them.

    Basically, that's all foundational stuff that I had to become comfortable with before I can jump in and start playing with the (much) more finicky levers of class balance. Particularly given that mistakes I make there will be especially rage inducing in the community - and I will make mistakes... I'd like to minimize that.

    Once the new ratings, gearing, and monster statting values settle down that should give us an excellent stepping off point for updating class balance. Unfortunately, there simply isn't enough time and testing resources to make that happen before Mordor launches. Most of those changes will have to happen during the course of our time in Mordor.

    -Vastin
    I mean, they say it's something they want to address but we haven't actually seen much work in that regard and still don't really have any idea of what kind of scale they intend to work on. Cordovan kept promising we would see some Beorning changes around Mordor but all that we got there was a couple of bug fixes that ended up introducing a couple new bugs and a net loss to the effectiveness of the class.

    I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that they have actually promised meaningful class balance work.
    ~ Balance is a game of give and take, at the end of the day even Beornings need nerfs. ~

  25. #25
    Bump.

    Redline damage is way too low. Look at making it between 25,000 and 30,000 DPS on a T2C trash mob.

 

 
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