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  1. #101

    Feedback: Champion Armour Set Bonuses

    The Berserker:

    There are two things I've noticed within Mordor which seem to impact outgoing DPS in varying, both of which I've found even on common mobs: high avoidances, and high mitigations. But while it's possible to reduce Block/Parry/Evade chances to a small minimum through DPS gear alone (except for partial avoidances -- looks like those are not affected by Finesse), I've found red line for Champions to be significantly impacted by all the higher mitigations above level 105 compared to Deadly Storm, which has the Champion's Advantage proc buff allowing AoE skills to bypass 15% of the mitigations of every mob hit (this seems to be calculated as though 50% becomes 35% instead of 42.5%, for an example), can place a -10,484 Armour Value debuff (59,660 Armour Value gives approximately 55.6% Physical Mitigation by itself, if mitigations are being calculated the same for NPCs as for players) on any mob almost at will if using the right legacy at rank 69, and can take advantage of another maxed-out legacy to allow Horn of Gondor to place a -5,900 Physical Mitigation debuff on any mob -- and out of all of these, the Berserker line only has access to the last one, though helped somewhat by Devastating Strike, which can bypass 40% of a target's mitigations in the same fashion as the Champion's Advantage buff (as well as the +10% Incoming Melee Damage debuff it inflicts, but it has a shorter duration than the cooldown of the skill.

    With this in mind, a simple cooldown reduction to Controlled Burn will not help much with single-target DPS at level 115 -- though the attack speed buff could be handy, it does not help much when dealing with substantially increased mob mitigations compared to pre-Mordor. A set bonus somehow based around bypassing mitigations seems better suited to handling the sort of situations found within Mordor and its new instances.

    One potential set bonus I could see being useful would be to enhance Devastating Strike, by having it give a "charge" of a mitigation bypass buff which is consumed by the next use of Merciful Strike, Remorseless Strike, or Ferocious Strikes (40% seems a bit much -- and doubly so with PvMP balance in mind -- so perhaps 30%?). It seems a little overpowered if multiple "charges" could be gained and consumed one at a time, but if it did I think two charges at most would be best. With red line seemingly focused around crits, a skill allowing their next use to do near-full damage would be highly useful, and especially so when the buff is gained by using a skill which also has the benefit of "marking" a target with a +10% Incoming Melee Damage debuff.


    The Deadly Storm:

    Yellow line for Champions seems to be in a decent place within Mordor, primarily due to how it can get through a lot of a mob's mitigations without too much difficulty. I also see this giving it a potentially strong place within the new Abyss of Mordath raid for dealing with groups of mobs.

    However, a +15% increase to the proc chance for Blade of Courage (which normally has up to a +20% chance for any AoE skill to trigger a 5% Morale self-heal on use -- approximately 3,756 Morale healed if a Champion has 75,125 max Morale) does not seem useful, as the amount of healing that proc does is not much more than the amount of damage the basic attacks from a normal mob can do at level 115 (and this is with high mitigations from armour). Within the new raid, I don't see it making much of a difference at all.

    If this were to increase the proc chance for Champion's Advantage (or increase the mitigation bypass buff from 15% to 20%), that would be an armour set buff I see being highly useful within the new raid, and elsewhere within Mordor.


    The Martial Champion:

    While I am not too familiar with how Champion tanking is at the moment, simply increasing the duration of the Aggressive Exchange debuff (when traited, Blade Wall inflicts up to a -10% Outgoing Damage debuff) from 4 seconds to 12 seconds does not seem to be very useful at all, and more so considering the cooldown for Blade Wall is only 4.2 seconds.

    On the other hand, Riposte seems a skill focused on tanking due how it's gated behind a parry event, and it ignores target avoidances entirely. With mobs in Mordor having significantly higher avoidances in general (and with Finesse appearing to not reduce partial avoidances in any way), I could see generating threat purely through damage that much more difficult as a result -- an armour set bonus enhancing Riposte by having it inflict a "Threat-over-Time" debuff (an effect generating a decent amount of threat each "tick" towards that specific Champion) would likely help with maintaining aggro on a target (which then creates more potential parry events, enabling the threat generation cycle to continue). Or if not this, perhaps a significant increase to the amount of healing from Dire Need, which is really in need of a buff due to significantly increased Morale pools relative to maximum Power: for example, a Champion with 90,150 Morale still only has a base of 5,874 Power, and even a traited base of 400% Morale for 30% Power consumed only gives 7,479 Morale for 1,762 Power (factoring in a +6.1% Incoming Healing bonus).
    One less Orc in the world is a good thing, and one less leader among the Orcs is a great thing.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    ^ Doesn't raid. Doesn't understand there can be required to have 2 tanks in the fight.
    Yeah at a few bosses, for wich a cappen switch to yellow, there was no need for a second guard since years.
    And I really doubt this time will come again

  3. #103
    Did they change the captain set bonuses already??

  4. #104
    Yellow Champ one made me chuckle... I would struggle to come up with anything less useful. Bleed damage for Cappy, what a masterpiece for a support class...

    At least it means I have nothing to barter cAsh for.
    Pavlosh - Pavamir - Pavlol - Pavagast | Raging Raiders | Arkenstone
    Original Challenger of Gothmog

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Yeah at a few bosses, for wich a cappen switch to yellow, there was no need for a second guard since years.
    And I really doubt this time will come again
    Who is speaking of second guardian? Not me.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Who is speaking of second guardian? Not me.
    So you will give wall on the offtank to get 166% dmg. 100% of your maintankdmg and 66% unavoided of the offtank. this will kill you to quick.
    Give it to someone else to take the dmg of the few random hits he get it doesnt matter if this are 100% or 66%.
    This bonus is as bad as the throne with which yiou give a short weak debuff with a low proc chance and a long proc cd with challenge.
    or do you wanna use the guard as a big bubble.

  7. #107
    Even if you do something like rakothas with guard and cappy... with that new guardbonus, the cappy can tank, maybe even with shield of dunedain and be shieldwalled. cappy doesnt take any damage, guard takes less than cappy would have taken.
    Sure, you can ignore the damage by just having the cappy run with last stand. but thats only 17s duration on high cd.
    You dont need two guards to drastically reduce taken damage of whoever tanks with such a shieldwall-bonus.
    And as long as bosses ignore avoidance with all relevant skills anyway, there is no real loss with not avoiding anything.

    Sure, having +5% mits as a setbonus would be cooler.
    But saying 33% damagereduction is bad... is just wrong. its just not that simple in its use.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Even if you do something like rakothas with guard and cappy... with that new guardbonus, the cappy can tank, maybe even with shield of dunedain and be shieldwalled. cappy doesnt take any damage, guard takes less than cappy would have taken.
    Sure, you can ignore the damage by just having the cappy run with last stand. but thats only 17s duration on high cd.
    You dont need two guards to drastically reduce taken damage of whoever tanks with such a shieldwall-bonus.
    And as long as bosses ignore avoidance with all relevant skills anyway, there is no real loss with not avoiding anything.

    Sure, having +5% mits as a setbonus would be cooler.
    But saying 33% damagereduction is bad... is just wrong. its just not that simple in its use.
    It's not 33% dmg reduction it just reduced the dmg shieldwall transmit to you.
    And the fights in which shieldwall is useful you can count on one hand.
    In all other it will kill u or it doesn't matter if you get the dmg or the walled target.
    And keeping at rakothas, this one hit a cappen survive on its own, is unmitigated so over all the guard will take more dmg, cause that attacks are avoidable, so the overall dmg is reduced higher as 33%. Not to forget that the guard has bleeds which ate the reason to switch cause, the dmg + bleeds are to high. So switching and walling doesn't make any sense.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    It's not 33% dmg reduction it just reduced the dmg shieldwall transmit to you.
    And the fights in which shieldwall is useful you can count on one hand.
    In all other it will kill u or it doesn't matter if you get the dmg or the walled target.
    And keeping at rakothas, this one hit a cappen survive on its own, is unmitigated so over all the guard will take more dmg, cause that attacks are avoidable, so the overall dmg is reduced higher as 33%. Not to forget that the guard has bleeds which ate the reason to switch cause, the dmg + bleeds are to high. So switching and walling doesn't make any sense.
    it all depends on the fight. All thats needed to have good use for that setbonus is a bossfight, where high unavoidable damage happens over a long time.
    No short-time-long-CD buffs help in such a situation, but shieldwalling would. So in such cases, having a Guard that shieldwalls the tank would be like the ability to stack two loremaster debuffs.

    Again: I'm not saying its a great bonus. Still, there can be situations, where its useful. And setbonusses never should be awesome. Useful in certain situations is totally enough.
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Gründer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
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  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    it all depends on the fight. All thats needed to have good use for that setbonus is a bossfight, where high unavoidable damage happens over a long time.
    No short-time-long-CD buffs help in such a situation, but shieldwalling would. So in such cases, having a Guard that shieldwalls the tank would be like the ability to stack two loremaster debuffs.

    Again: I'm not saying its a great bonus. Still, there can be situations, where its useful. And setbonusses never should be awesome. Useful in certain situations is totally enough.
    Nope a setbonus should give a boost in any situation. Not just having a doubtful use for one fight and for the rest, hey live without a bonus all others have.
    And there won´t be any fight in which the dmg is so high that you need it and waste one spot, what it is if you puit a guard in just to shield wall. a guard needs the aggro or he is a waste.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Nope a setbonus should give a boost in any situation. Not just having a doubtful use for one fight and for the rest, hey live without a bonus all others have.
    And there won´t be any fight in which the dmg is so high that you need it and waste one spot, what it is if you puit a guard in just to shield wall. a guard needs the aggro or he is a waste.
    So lets say you have a raidgroup with 1 tank (guard), 2 healers and rest dps/support...
    The only tanking-relevant boss-mechanic is, that the boss once each 30s applies a debuff with -100 threat on whoever is highest in threat which lasts for 5-10 seconds.
    Wouldnt it be easier to just tank that boss as the guard and shieldwall whoever is secondhighest, than having two tanks just to prevent a dpser from getting hit for 5-10s, if he'd survive with shieldwall anyway? Its not like usual dpsers would take much more than 33% more damage than tanks today, if attacks cant be avoided.

    And if setbonusses are strong for all situations, you have several issues: they need to be the same way strong for all classes and traits or you create lots of imbalance. Plus, you get huge bonusses that you would only need to complete content which rewards you with those huge bonusses. What exactly do you need them for?
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  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    So lets say you have a raidgroup with 1 tank (guard), 2 healers and rest dps/support...
    The only tanking-relevant boss-mechanic is, that the boss once each 30s applies a debuff with -100 threat on whoever is highest in threat which lasts for 5-10 seconds.
    Wouldnt it be easier to just tank that boss as the guard and shieldwall whoever is secondhighest, than having two tanks just to prevent a dpser from getting hit for 5-10s, if he'd survive with shieldwall anyway? Its not like usual dpsers would take much more than 33% more damage than tanks today, if attacks cant be avoided.

    And if setbonusses are strong for all situations, you have several issues: they need to be the same way strong for all classes and traits or you create lots of imbalance. Plus, you get huge bonusses that you would only need to complete content which rewards you with those huge bonusses. What exactly do you need them for?
    Would be easier for that guard to macro Fray and afk. perma force taunt for the lulz
    Arkenstone| Officer of Faded | Altria
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    Original Challenger of Gothmog


  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Starkorm View Post
    Would be easier for that guard to macro Fray and afk. perma force taunt for the lulz
    the boss might just ignore forcetaunts of a target with -100% threat
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    So lets say you have a raidgroup with 1 tank (guard), 2 healers and rest dps/support...
    The only tanking-relevant boss-mechanic is, that the boss once each 30s applies a debuff with -100 threat on whoever is highest in threat which lasts for 5-10 seconds.
    Wouldnt it be easier to just tank that boss as the guard and shieldwall whoever is secondhighest, than having two tanks just to prevent a dpser from getting hit for 5-10s, if he'd survive with shieldwall anyway? Its not like usual dpsers would take much more than 33% more damage than tanks today, if attacks cant be avoided.

    And if setbonusses are strong for all situations, you have several issues: they need to be the same way strong for all classes and traits or you create lots of imbalance. Plus, you get huge bonusses that you would only need to complete content which rewards you with those huge bonusses. What exactly do you need them for?
    For this situation you've much better solutions as shieldwall. E.g. Take a cappen in yellow trait edges down in red, all he lost is sure strike buff for his group ( irrelevant in the tanking group with no dpser), the other support he can do. Force, force and he is always the second.

    And this is the point all others are strong in every situation(at least one, which you can use for all lines) just for the guards one you've to create a not given boss scenario for the moment and even this you can avoid and give guards a bonus which is useful in all fights.

  15. #115
    Guard yellow Skill Tree is a tank Tree, on the armor here are just dmg things on it......

    I think all 3 Set bonis are bad ...

    30 sec. Charge reduce .....

    +10% Strong Burst Dmg is a joke, because guards makes no dmg anyway

    -33% shieldwall reduce is only usefull in what ? 2 or 3 Boss fights ....


    An than there ar still this new Shields with toons of block on it, i would rather have evade and parry on it

  16. #116
    Any changes made to the sets so far? Especially the captain set bonusses come to mind...

    How do they look cosmetics wise?

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earid View Post
    Any changes made to the sets so far? Especially the captain set bonusses come to mind...

    How do they look cosmetics wise?
    Yes there are changes to red guardian ( big LOL ) , red warden , red captain , a boost to yellow lm ( those 3 are quite strong ) and 2 more beorning sets.

    Feel free to log in and check/test them out : D

    PS: Sadly , yellow champion set is still a joke. lol

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Earid View Post
    Any changes made to the sets so far? Especially the captain set bonusses come to mind...

    How do they look cosmetics wise?


    Arkenstone| Officer of Faded | Altria
    Arkenstone | Leader of Dark Impulse | Telcely
    Original Challenger of Gothmog


  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starkorm View Post

    You cannot be serious.
    "Not all those who wander are lost....some are so stubborn that they always think they're going in the right direction."

    "The 4th age is the store age" - Hetweith

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by zipfile View Post
    You cannot be serious.
    haha. right. thats hillarious. a skill you never want to use before the enemy hits ~20k morale to finish it as it would have huge CD if it doesnt finish the mob now is usable (gets bonusdamage) from 40-50k morale on? why would one want to do it?
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  21. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Earid View Post
    Any changes made to the sets so far? Especially the captain set bonusses come to mind...

    How do they look cosmetics wise?
    Quote Originally Posted by Starkorm View Post


    Captain red line set bonus is currently bugged. Critical hits do not a provide +3% incoming damage debuff, instead it only gives a boost to incoming melee damage, although at 5% instead of 3%.

    Last edited by Starkorm; Dec 03 2017 at 11:12 AM.
    Arkenstone| Officer of Faded | Altria
    Arkenstone | Leader of Dark Impulse | Telcely
    Original Challenger of Gothmog


  22. #122
    Updated set bonuses here.

    Arkenstone| Officer of Faded | Altria
    Arkenstone | Leader of Dark Impulse | Telcely
    Original Challenger of Gothmog


  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Starkorm View Post
    Captain red line set bonus is currently bugged. Critical hits do not a provide +3% incoming damage debuff, instead it only gives a boost to incoming melee damage, although at 5% instead of 3%.
    2%+3%=5% Where is bug here?

  24. #124
    +1000
    Warden DPS set is just a bad joke, proving once again that the Dev don't even know what they are doing.
    Bring back the +3 dot ticks, so at least we can use more than 6 dots in a rotation.

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Naranor View Post
    2%+3%=5% Where is bug here?
    Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't realize it combined with the trait. (I only play guardian these days)
    However,
    It states the target will receive +3% incoming damage. Nowhere does it denote melee incoming damage only. The same applies to the trait. Either the text is wrong, and needs to be properly updated; or the traits are bugged, and need to apply incoming damage bonuses for tactical and ranged as well. Regardless, as is, only 5% incoming melee damage is still an extremely underwhelming -raid- set bonus. Especially when considering the incoming melee bonus will only be buffed the damage of:
    1) Guardians
    2) Captains
    3) Yellow burgs
    4) Wardens
    5) Bears

    All of which are either tanking, or provide such an insignificant amount of damage the boost might as well not exist. I've yet to see a single reason to bring champion into the raid beyond clearing trash.


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