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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
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    801

    Making imbued LIs age gracefully

    This post is a copy from another post I made on Bullroarer forums. I decided to copy it to this section since the other thread had derailed in its discussion. If you want to discuss class balance, please do it in another thread. If you want to discuss the ideas which are suggested here, then you're welcome to, but I suggest that you take a look at the original thread here to see if your points have already been discussed. I'll try to organize this post to make it look better and easier to understand in another moment.
    Original thread is here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...efore-the-raid
    ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________

    Since the new level cap and the new stat formula, many legacies that already hadn't had a small contribution to our toon have even smaller contribution. Stat legacies, legacies of debuffs like Rend Armour debuff and Resistance penetration, B/P/E penetration, fellowship buffs like Anthem of War Physical/Tactical Mastery, legacies that boost the critical rating of certain skills and the list goes on and on...
    The solution, however, is not a very complicated one. The issue with the imbued LI is that it is supposed to grow with *you*, but it doesn't. The Legendary Item does not scale to your character's level, so its passive stats and legacies never change based on your level. It's all still at lvl 100's numbers. The only thing that grows is the legacy's final tier, but that's not something that grows with *YOU*, but grows as you use empowerment scrolls and star-lit crystals. And I don't think it shouldn't grow as I use scrolls and star-lit as well, but it's just not the premise that started this system that said that they would grow with us, but because our character growing does not equal LIs growing currently, this system failed to deliver on its promise, perhaps due to forgetfulness.
    This should be corrected before the raid, or even before this first instance cluster, if possible, because that issue is going to have impacts as people start to get geared for those groups and realize that all of their hard work on getting their scrolls of empowerment is not paying off as some of those legacies are having a very tiny impact on their classes for a big amount of work and time that you have to set aside to get those scrolls.
    So my suggestion is that you actually make a LI that grows as our character grows as well. Make it an auto-scaling item.

    This could even be a way to give the players who have been asking for lvl 45-99 imbued LIs, because if you can craft a level 100 LI that can scale to any level including 45-99, as long as it only uses anfalas scrolls and crystals, then you can make those players happy that want to imbue their LIs on a lower level.

    For the players, if there are any other things that are not scaling to lvl 115, like skills and traits, please let me know and I'll compile them into another post.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,386
    Again, I'm not sure about the linkage to the raid with respect to the mechanism for improving the ILI. I expect, one way or another, players looking to run the raid will have their ILI fully max'd out beforehand. Really, that's true of most level 115 characters. The real impact of the lack of "grow as you do" link is that a fully max ILI is available to a level 100 character, but that really only affects game play at level 100-114.

    Another issue you raise has to do with the scaling (or lack thereof) on some of the legacies. That does change what legacies are useful or not. But that points back to intention on the part of the devs. It seems that they intended to implicitly nerf certain things. So without know exactly what their intentions were, it's tricky to second guess them. For example, looking at hunter, the evade legacy has dropped in value due to the number being increased far less than other stats. Now the reason that legacy was so important was that it was one of the main ways of countering partial avoidances, and there's not a lot else that does it. Was it there intention to make partial avoidances more of a problem? Without knowing it's difficult to say it "must be fixed", because it's entirely possible that they don't see it as something that should ever be "fixed".

    Finally, there's the point about large numbers of empowerment scrolls and starlit crystals being necessary to max an ILI, and the resulting grind required to obtain them. There's an argument against grind, but frankly they seem to be going the opposite direction with the game, introducing more and more grind (e.g. ash). However, in any case, the grind issue is hardly something that needs to be addressed before the raid is introduced. It really points more to the feasibility of max'ing out a slew of alts, which becomes less and less of a viable prospect as the grind required increases.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    801
    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    Again, I'm not sure about the linkage to the raid with respect to the mechanism for improving the ILI. I expect, one way or another, players looking to run the raid will have their ILI fully max'd out beforehand. Really, that's true of most level 115 characters. The real impact of the lack of "grow as you do" link is that a fully max ILI is available to a level 100 character, but that really only affects game play at level 100-114.

    Another issue you raise has to do with the scaling (or lack thereof) on some of the legacies. That does change what legacies are useful or not. But that points back to intention on the part of the devs. It seems that they intended to implicitly nerf certain things. So without know exactly what their intentions were, it's tricky to second guess them. For example, looking at hunter, the evade legacy has dropped in value due to the number being increased far less than other stats. Now the reason that legacy was so important was that it was one of the main ways of countering partial avoidances, and there's not a lot else that does it. Was it there intention to make partial avoidances more of a problem? Without knowing it's difficult to say it "must be fixed", because it's entirely possible that they don't see it as something that should ever be "fixed".

    Finally, there's the point about large numbers of empowerment scrolls and starlit crystals being necessary to max an ILI, and the resulting grind required to obtain them. There's an argument against grind, but frankly they seem to be going the opposite direction with the game, introducing more and more grind (e.g. ash). However, in any case, the grind issue is hardly something that needs to be addressed before the raid is introduced. It really points more to the feasibility of max'ing out a slew of alts, which becomes less and less of a viable prospect as the grind required increases.
    I think I already explained the linkage with the raid in the other thread. Perhaps you could be a little bit more specific?
    And this is not intended. Check Vastin's post here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...37#post7750137
    And this suggestion doesn't have anything to do with grind. It has to do with correcting some values in the ILIs which greatly affects how some classes operate. It is the first step before we can have a class balance update in U22. It does not necessarily have to be before the raid, but it is definetely recommended. Again, I already explained the motives in the other thread.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    2,386
    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    I think I already explained the linkage with the raid in the other thread. Perhaps you could be a little bit more specific?
    And this is not intended. Check Vastin's post here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...37#post7750137
    And this suggestion doesn't have anything to do with grind. It has to do with correcting some values in the ILIs which greatly affects how some classes operate. It is the first step before we can have a class balance update in U22. It does not necessarily have to be before the raid, but it is definetely recommended. Again, I already explained the motives in the other thread.
    If you look at the thread you linked you'll see that my own post is the one immediately preceding Vastin's. Basically all he says is that the imbued LI system "isn't aging gracefully". I made the very point, immediately before his post, about the issue being the lack of a link between max legacy tiers and char level. You mentioned the use of scrolls and starlit, and that has been linked by others in the past to concerns about "grinding". I agree, the lack of corresponding scaling, relative to Mordor stat increases, does affect the relative worth of certain legacies (the same is true of certain skills themselves, as well as pots, food etc.) However, in some cases is seems this may have been deliberate. So we would really need more information on what they intended to do vs. what might be an unintended consequence.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    801
    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    If you look at the thread you linked you'll see that my own post is the one immediately preceding Vastin's. Basically all he says is that the imbued LI system "isn't aging gracefully". I made the very point, immediately before his post, about the issue being the lack of a link between max legacy tiers and char level. You mentioned the use of scrolls and starlit, and that has been linked by others in the past to concerns about "grinding". I agree, the lack of corresponding scaling, relative to Mordor stat increases, does affect the relative worth of certain legacies (the same is true of certain skills themselves, as well as pots, food etc.) However, in some cases is seems this may have been deliberate. So we would really need more information on what they intended to do vs. what might be an unintended consequence.
    In that context, it was a thread about making the LIs scale to character level, which was being pointed out as an issue, which Vastin came in and said that it was a problem that they were aware of. I've just seen your suggestion and I don't think it's optimal. Making LIs scale to character level would be the best thing to do, as it would fix many issues including some of the PvP scaling issues, since it would revert the LIs DPS increase ratio back to the way it was pre-U21 and instead make the DPS scale to character level. That way a lvl 105 character with maxxed DPS legacy scaled to 115 would have the same DPS as a lvl 115 toon with maxxed DPS legacy.
    Anyway, I understand what you mean by being deliberate, but here is what's deliberate for sure:
    The stat formula change was in fact implemented not only to make it more simply for Vastin to understand and play with the values, but to also make it more dificcult to reach certain caps, because while you have some stats that had their cap increased by 3x, 4x, 5x... their respective essences and values in gear have only been doubled.
    The same thing would happen when a LI scales. It would not be scaled to the point where the values in it are tripled, quadrupled, no... the values would increase in the same rate as gear and essences have increased (which is more or less 2x the values at lvl 105).
    Any issues with some legacies being OP would have to be addressed in a case-by-case basis afterwards.

 

 

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