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  1. #76
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    Sep 2010
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    2,141
    I've only been Moorsing for a couple months, and I don't creep, so I don't really have any "boost this skill X%" or "nerf that skill Y%" type comments. Just some general remarks from a semi-newbie perspective.

    Can we remove keep auto-flipping? Not clear on the original purpose, but I haven't seen anyone who really loves it. At least with normal flipping you'd know where the creeps/freeps are at. Right now you don't know if a flip was auto or real. It makes all the "deliver oil to boost our defenses" type quests useless too because you know it'll just flip before it hits 10/10. If those even really help to begin with. Disabling back doors in combat would be nice too.

    Wargs. I really can't stand wargs. I'm riding along and suddenly I'm knocked off and dead. And even if I survive that first blast and manage to fight back, I know they'll just stealth away if they're about to lose. I'm fine with having stealth classes, but this is the definition of not fun. I'm sure creeps have the exact same complaint about burgs. Not sure on the solution, but it bears thought.

    Can we have heal tags expire after a certain amount of time? Or not apply out of combat? That could hurt legitimate dot healers a bit, but might be worth it.

    NPCs need a bit of a boost. The tyrants seem decently tough but getting to them is not too hard. More damage and less morale sounds like the way to go.

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    182
    Well, I came back to this just in time, Glad SSG are finally trying to do something about the huge disparity between freeps and creeps classes. One that is waaaay to late but never mind. For successful pvmp to work as intended in conception, the 2 opposing classes should have a direct opposite number from the get go, if one sides dps or mits went up it should have been a simple adjustment to the algorithm to maintain balance, freep dps goes up by so and so, creep mits go up to counter this. This 'Ultimate Truth' hasn't been the case since the start, which is why we've ended up with wild swings and roundabouts, with sticking plasters placed on festering wounds and a hope it will all turn out right.

    PVE armour AND weapons all have no place in pvp, since Creeps cannot customize their builds in the same way that Freeps can, don't mention the dozen corruptions creeps have, at 105 freeps had 48 slots to compensate for their weaknesses. for any semblance of balance Creeps would have had to have 48 corruption slots!

    Base mits on Creepside need a HUGE adjustment....one shotted rk 13 creeps just shouldn't EVER happen, neither should 2,3 or 4 shots!....

    The biggest bugbear I've always had is that almost every update with the introduction of new levels of imbued LI's or higher level armour is NEVER compensated on creepside.

    It's just not GOOD enough!

    I cancelled my VIP and I won't be in any hurry to resub until I hear from reliable sources (Mainly Gil) that things have been at least evened out to something like equality.

    So balls in your court SGG

    ps

    Snowlock is maintaining a fine case of 'Keeping Hunters where they are now' ......though obviously it's Futile .....right!

    No-one is mentioning the dps of the Fire Rk, Healing by Mini's and Beornings, the bleeds by Wardens and the AOE by Champions either, all of which are devastating to any Creep with only 12 corruptions.

    I'm interested to see what you come up with, forgive me if I'm not carried carried away on the 'Hope-Mobile' though. I've seen your past efforts.

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Happychappy View Post
    I just don’t get how they can do a decent pvmp balance pass when the classes themselves are not balanced.

    Which classes are in a good spot to balance against?

    Why do we have so many classes with useless trait lines and bugged skills etc?. Fix these first and give us some variety of gameplay that’s competitive.

    Horse first, Cart second please.
    I think this -->
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    If they want to check balanced freep DPS classes they should look for RK ST. I have said it before and will say it again. RK is in very good spot DPS wise what is balanced and game should be look to model other classes after that.
    RK DPS is right about where it should be, I think. Sometime the RNG factor can be a pain with RKs, but overall, RK DPS seems fine to me atm. I'm certainly not going to blow any creep up in seconds, but I should not be able to..... nor should anyone. That is not good PvP in my opinion.
    Last edited by Nouri; Oct 13 2017 at 02:13 PM.
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    I think this -->

    RK DPS is right about where it should be, I think. Sometime the RNG factor can be a pain with RKs, but overall, RK DPS seems fine to me atm. I'm certainly not going to blow any creep up in seconds, but I should not be able to..... nor should anyone. That is not good PvP in my opinion.

    But your rng is more reliable than my rng. See this is EXACTLY what happens when you try making blind changes. Ok nerf hunter dps to rk dps and now hunter dps is quite subpar because partials are lowering dps.....Again you have to go through and balance class skill sets. A cover all fix isnt gonna work.
    Captain-General Ughidontknow...Tripso rnk 6 burg...Izeatzfreepz rnk 8 warg....Yells rnk 10 warleader
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by idontcare789 View Post
    But your rng is more reliable than my rng. See this is EXACTLY what happens when you try making blind changes. Ok nerf hunter dps to rk dps and now hunter dps is quite subpar because partials are lowering dps.....Again you have to go through and balance class skill sets. A cover all fix isnt gonna work.
    When a person says "model classes after that", they don't mean that hunters should do exactly the same DPS. It means that, when taking other things into consideration (utility, mobility, how a class delivers damage), the classes should be on par. It doesn't mean that only their DPS should be exactly the same.

    When we say "nerf hunters/burglars", we don't mean they should do less damage than other classes. It means they shouldn't do double the damage of other classes, but only 10% more, or thereabouts.

  6. #81

    Money decide all

    hm...what I can see after every update - SHAME SHAME SSG
    SHAME SHAME SHAME
    and hard to type with big charapter company name....ssg is better to type..cos as I see all amirican intersting just in money
    it is not political vision but - just look!!!!!
    after turbine we did not have something with every update more hard - and it is not QQ I like when hard to play for me it is more fun...but after all
    if more part of creep don't pay - hm - sure just 21% of freep/who play creeps have vip accounts...and many people lieved game with Yur politics.....with Your money interest ssg
    sure great????
    grab money and continue in this way guys!!!! but You will destroy nice pvp soon....no update for creeps why??? more part know - money
    american people stole all in world (smart people know what country I am talking about )and sad to think but as I see ssg company too - interested just in money as i wrote before....
    SHAME SHAME no changes in future update????
    hm I am not sure that ssg worker answer here
    cos what answer we can see???!!!
    Last edited by Asazi; Oct 13 2017 at 02:54 PM.
    =======What does not kill us makes us stronger =======
    ===Happiness to all and let no one go away disgruntled===
    ==========Tribe PEKBIEM RK11025000============

  7. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, Vastin here... hopefully with your feedback we can get the ettenmoors back into a competitive shape.
    Great to hear & good luck! LOTRO without PvMP is no game for me.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    just try to look at it objectively.you cannot do that, please refrain from offering feedback, because it will get us nowhere.
    So your way of seeing something objectively is playing warg for a 2 weeks on preMordor release and then afterwards when Mordor comes out on a fotm hnt with a pocket healer rk on follow? Please...noone, and especially you, will forbid me giving my opinion about creep matters and especially at such a crucial phase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    This is an absolutely joke of a statement, considering the state weavers are already in. Increasing their DPS by 40% would be ludicrous. They need less damage on their main abilities (Mephitic/Tainted Kiss) and more damage to their other abilities. They certainly do not need a flat damage buff to everything. Their induction times are already negligible, I don't think anyone has ever considered them to be an issue.
    The only joke here is that we still have fotm hnts ( on a thread which is supposed to be for a major general creep revamp discussion so no idea what freeps have to say in here) and still think that creep classes need nerfs whilst ALL monsters need a significant increase on everything. Passives, corruptions ,dps, base stats etc. And I m not talking only about 21.2 here if u get the meaning...

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Disagreed. In a PvMP environment people's stats should be kept as close together as possible to ensure that the most "skillful" players perform the best. R15 creeps make a huge difference due to the inc healing, and the +health/damage are incredibly good for both sides. The R15 Brand is actually crazy good, and I think Brands are something that needs to be looked at in general.
    IF u reach one day R15 u ll realise what I meant, freep. In the meantime refrain from posting anything that has to do with R15 as you don t have even the rank to talk about it, least ofc the general idea.


    For the devs again: make sure ALL creep classes get a major upgrade. Freeps got 4 upgrades so far with future upgrades also on the way. we only got 15-20k morale increase and a worthless finesse corruption that no one uses.
    Gu kibum kelkum-ishi, burzum-ishi... akha-gum-ishi ashi gurum...

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    408
    @Vastin

    Can you please make it so that the [Gorgoroth Steel-Bound Lootboxes] do not drop on creepside? Creeps cannot open these boxes and they usually contain useful items for creeps like [Sigil of Battle] and [Greater Sigil of Battle]. I have a bunch in my bags right now and they are absolutely useless to me. If you can bring back the [Anorien Iron-Bound Lootbox] to creepside, that would be great.


  10. #85
    please refrain from personal attacks and stay on point.

    all you should be responding to is the OP, who is a dev.
    Last edited by subadar; Oct 13 2017 at 04:08 PM.
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  11. #86
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    5,283
    To you guys that are constantly saying "freep pve gear shouldn't be in pvp"... Don't you want more freeps in pvp? One of the main attractions for a freep to come to pvp, is to "try out" their shiny they gained in pve in pvp land.

    For SSG, if you want them busting the bank on black keys, there's not better reason than for that bis gear to be used on creeps.

    And audacity gear? All that does for a freep is disincentivize them from either coming our or more importantly, coming back. If you have a lapsed freep that you want to try lotro again, and they're a pvp'er, the single largest hurdle they have is to get farmed by creeps while acquiring pvp gear.

    I completely realize and understand the notion that freep pve gear makes it hard to balance against. But we have had Audacity gear since 2012. Balance was never achieved to my knowledge during that time. Certainly not if you read posts on these forums. So given the ineffective nature of audacity as a balancing mechanic, then when taking into account it's demotivational properties to participation, I can't see how this is any kind of attractive solution to anything.

  12. #87
    Bring back the old EC/OC, remove new EC/OC, get rid of OP and Delving buffs.

    Spider's Ensnare that reduces inductions, stacks, and lasts until out of combat is the most OP thing in RvR: a debuff that doesn't need re-application on enemy's healers throughout what can be fight that can last up to several good minutes or beyond.
    Arkenstone (formerly Landroval):
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    Eviliz Unseen, r11 Warg. Lizifer, r11 Defiler.

  13. #88
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    Sep 2016
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    1,964
    Quote Originally Posted by HiFice View Post
    @Vastin

    Can you please make it so that the [Gorgoroth Steel-Bound Lootboxes] do not drop on creepside? Creeps cannot open these boxes and they usually contain useful items for creeps like [Sigil of Battle] and [Greater Sigil of Battle]. I have a bunch in my bags right now and they are absolutely useless to me. If you can bring back the [Anorien Iron-Bound Lootbox] to creepside, that would be great.

    This is a bug we're intending to fix.
    Community Manager, Lord of the Rings Online
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    coolcool

  14. #89
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    203

    Thumbs up Thanks for the initial round of suggestions

    That's a very encouraging volume of feedback. I'll be going over it carefully before I make the first round of passes.

    A lot there to digest and consider.

    -Vastin

  15. #90
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    Jun 2011
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    4,651
    I think most of what had to be said has been said, so perhaps it would be wise to consider closing this thread, before it devolves into yet another toxic PvMP thread.

    Either way, amazing to hear that our feedback isn't falling on deaf ears.

  16. #91
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    Jan 2015
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    408
    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    This is a bug we're intending to fix.
    Good to hear. Will there be an option on creepside to turn in our Gorgoroth boxes for the appropriate versions?

  17. #92
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    203
    Heh. Luckily the feedback is unanimous and sensible on certain points:

    - I'll certainly examining the base mitigations/stats on creeps. I didn't realize that these had not scaled at all with the rest of the changes we made for u21 (and possibly for prior updates). That makes no sense and will need to be updated to allow for a more sensible and flexible allocation of corruptions. I do intend to keep the new finesse corruptions (possibly with tweaks), but if the base stats are set at a more sensible place, they shouldn't be a problem.

    - Some of the initial feedback I'd gotten was that it was taking far too long for creeps to kill ettenmoors mobs - but it sounds like that isn't a DPS problem, so much as a disparity between creep/freep NPC vitality? That should be easy enough to address once I find out where it's coming from.

    - Combat appears to just be too quick and bursty at the moment (at least with several classes), so I'll be examining if it makes sense to rebalance crit magnitude vs crit mitigation to favor the latter more heavily in base stats and/or corruptions, which should have the effect of slowing down both sides to some degree. Improving base Creep mitigations and possibly nerfing certain high-burst creep skills would hopefully round that out, and maybe get duels back into the 30-60 second range, rather than the 5-15 second range, which is too quick for this style of combat.

    - Obviously a TON of issues with individual skills, concerning burst damage, CC issues, and improper debuff stacking. Too many for me to address in any concrete way in the time I will have available - but I'll see if I can soften up some of the most egregious cases creep side, and maintain a hit list of things to address in the future as time allows. Freep side I have to be more circumspect because it affects the entire rest of the game, but we do have plans to go into PvE skill balance as well, and I can try to make sure that those changes help address PvMP issues as well. :P

    - I have to think very hard about the role of Audacity armor. On the one hand, it is an entire additional subsystem that we have to update and balance with each major update to keep it relevant. On the other hand, if it isn't relevant, then the creeps need to be frequently updated to keep pace with regular gear upgrades on the Freeps - but it is much easier to rebalance Creeps than Freeps... We could potentially go for a much more technical solution to try to generally level the playing field (such as auto-scaling any and all freep gear as they enter the moors), but that would require a major engineering update and re-balance beyond just my playing with tables and skills.

    Choices choices...

  18. #93
    I am glad to hear that someone has taken an interest in working with PVP. I'll keep it plain and simple. From a creep healer's standpoint, I would like to see heals become percentage-based for both sides. I feel as if defiler needs more heal-while-moving skills like freep classes have. An in-combat rez, or AOE rez would be very beneficial too. Also, If freep healers can be tanky, why can't we?
    Eternal bonkins

    ~Nadyah, Venomvain, Temarine, Demri

  19. #94
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    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    - Some of the initial feedback I'd gotten was that it was taking far too long for creeps to kill ettenmoors mobs - but it sounds like that isn't a DPS problem, so much as a disparity between creep/freep NPC vitality? That should be easy enough to address once I find out where it's coming from.
    You can really approach this either way I would imagine. But sure creep damage to NPCs sucks but on the other hand simplest fix might be to lower NPC morale pools (this is more needed) and damage pools if you intend to nerf creep morales closer to freep ones.

    - Combat appears to just be too quick and bursty at the moment (at least with several classes), so I'll be examining if it makes sense to rebalance crit magnitude vs crit mitigation to favor the latter more heavily in base stats and/or corruptions, which should have the effect of slowing down both sides to some degree. Improving base Creep mitigations and possibly nerfing certain high-burst creep skills would hopefully round that out, and maybe get duels back into the 30-60 second range, rather than the 5-15 second range, which is too quick for this style of combat.
    It could be interesting if you have ways limit critical magnitudes with ettenmoors buff for freeps (altering buff actually exists when entering ettens). Creep one is obvious and many players just like less bursty and more stable ways to do damage so fights aren't who has good crit luck on right skills.


    - Obviously a TON of issues with individual skills, concerning burst damage, CC issues, and improper debuff stacking. Too many for me to address in any concrete way in the time I will have available - but I'll see if I can soften up some of the most egregious cases creep side, and maintain a hit list of things to address in the future as time allows. Freep side I have to be more circumspect because it affects the entire rest of the game, but we do have plans to go into PvE skill balance as well, and I can try to make sure that those changes help address PvMP issues as well. :P

    - I have to think very hard about the role of Audacity armor. On the one hand, it is an entire additional subsystem that we have to update and balance with each major update to keep it relevant. On the other hand, if it isn't relevant, then the creeps need to be frequently updated to keep pace with regular gear upgrades on the Freeps - but it is much easier to rebalance Creeps than Freeps... We could potentially go for a much more technical solution to try to generally level the playing field (such as auto-scaling any and all freep gear as they enter the moors), but that would require a major engineering update and re-balance beyond just my playing with tables and skills.

    Choices choices...
    This is encouraging even if you have limited time available.

  20. #95
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    Jan 2015
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    408
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    - Some of the initial feedback I'd gotten was that it was taking far too long for creeps to kill ettenmoors mobs - but it sounds like that isn't a DPS problem, so much as a disparity between creep/freep NPC vitality? That should be easy enough to address once I find out where it's coming from.
    There is an issue with outposts in the Ettenmoors. Captain-Generals in outposts have 2.8 million morale while Krahjarn Tyrants in outpost have only 1.5 million morale.
    The disparity makes it very difficult and tedious for creeps to flip an outpost whereas it is child's play for 2 hunters.




  21. #96
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    May 2007
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    5,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Heh. Luckily the feedback is unanimous and sensible on certain points:

    - I'll certainly examining the base mitigations/stats on creeps. I didn't realize that these had not scaled at all with the rest of the changes we made for u21 (and possibly for prior updates). That makes no sense and will need to be updated to allow for a more sensible and flexible allocation of corruptions. I do intend to keep the new finesse corruptions (possibly with tweaks), but if the base stats are set at a more sensible place, they shouldn't be a problem.

    - Some of the initial feedback I'd gotten was that it was taking far too long for creeps to kill ettenmoors mobs - but it sounds like that isn't a DPS problem, so much as a disparity between creep/freep NPC vitality? That should be easy enough to address once I find out where it's coming from.

    - Combat appears to just be too quick and bursty at the moment (at least with several classes), so I'll be examining if it makes sense to rebalance crit magnitude vs crit mitigation to favor the latter more heavily in base stats and/or corruptions, which should have the effect of slowing down both sides to some degree. Improving base Creep mitigations and possibly nerfing certain high-burst creep skills would hopefully round that out, and maybe get duels back into the 30-60 second range, rather than the 5-15 second range, which is too quick for this style of combat.

    - Obviously a TON of issues with individual skills, concerning burst damage, CC issues, and improper debuff stacking. Too many for me to address in any concrete way in the time I will have available - but I'll see if I can soften up some of the most egregious cases creep side, and maintain a hit list of things to address in the future as time allows. Freep side I have to be more circumspect because it affects the entire rest of the game, but we do have plans to go into PvE skill balance as well, and I can try to make sure that those changes help address PvMP issues as well. :P

    - I have to think very hard about the role of Audacity armor. On the one hand, it is an entire additional subsystem that we have to update and balance with each major update to keep it relevant. On the other hand, if it isn't relevant, then the creeps need to be frequently updated to keep pace with regular gear upgrades on the Freeps - but it is much easier to rebalance Creeps than Freeps... We could potentially go for a much more technical solution to try to generally level the playing field (such as auto-scaling any and all freep gear as they enter the moors), but that would require a major engineering update and re-balance beyond just my playing with tables and skills.

    Choices choices...
    You haven't mentioned the posts about map layouts. They play an important role in "balance", especially those OP's.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    - Combat appears to just be too quick and bursty at the moment (at least with several classes), so I'll be examining if it makes sense to rebalance crit magnitude vs crit mitigation to favor the latter more heavily in base stats and/or corruptions, which should have the effect of slowing down both sides to some degree. Improving base Creep mitigations and possibly nerfing certain high-burst creep skills would hopefully round that out, and maybe get duels back into the 30-60 second range, rather than the 5-15 second range, which is too quick for this style of combat.
    Please take into consideration that this applies to certain classes only, and not the the factions they belong to. You need to examine classes individually, and I'm sure there are those amongst us who would be more than willing to help you sort it all out. Just let us know.

    - I have to think very hard about the role of Audacity armor. On the one hand, it is an entire additional subsystem that we have to update and balance with each major update to keep it relevant. On the other hand, if it isn't relevant, then the creeps need to be frequently updated to keep pace with regular gear upgrades on the Freeps - but it is much easier to rebalance Creeps than Freeps... We could potentially go for a much more technical solution to try to generally level the playing field (such as auto-scaling any and all freep gear as they enter the moors), but that would require a major engineering update and re-balance beyond just my playing with tables and skills.

    Choices choices...
    All I will say is that, if you find a way to make PvMP exclusive gear, that is enforced in the Ettenmoors, you will have an easy time balancing both sides from that point onwards. Sure, it will take you some time to figure it all out, but think on it. It might well be worth it, considering what you would get in return. You would just have two sides that essentially have stat templates that you can tune exactly the way you want.
    Hand this gear out for free so that freeps are all on equal footing, and do yourself a favour that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by HiFice View Post
    There is an issue with outposts in the Ettenmoors. Captain-Generals in outposts have 2.8 million morale while Krahjarn Tyrants in outpost have only 1.5 million morale.
    The disparity makes it very difficult and tedious for creeps to flip an outpost whereas it is child's play for 2 hunters.



    This is easily fixed: the CG must be set to lvl 115, not lvl 116.

  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    That's a very encouraging volume of feedback. I'll be going over it carefully before I make the first round of passes.

    A lot there to digest and consider.

    -Vastin
    Enough feedback on the rest of the forums too, apparantly shows it goes unread.

  24. #99
    I know I won't be popular here for not playing Moors in a while, so I don't know the newest state of it, but I still want to say a few things...

    Yes, creeps need some love, that is certain.
    But please try to keep in mind two things:
    Every time we are in Moors, we have the ON buff. Which means there are more creeps than freeps out. So while their dps does need a pass, consider that freeps have fewer numbers. People here do love to 1v1, but if you balance that, then group will get unbalanced.
    When you do attempt to do the balance, in case something is needed to be done to freeps, please consider doing that in a way that PvMP doesn't break PvE.

    I would personally love if audacity could be a personal skill (like stat tomes), not tied to gear, but I'll leave the rest of feedback for people who live there more or less and are more knowledgeable than I am.

  25. #100
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    Exclamation No changes to Warg Stalkers

    WARG STALKERS:

    What is troubling about any conversation regarding changes to this class
    is that Stalkers are the easiest to be killed (albeit out of Stealth) of any class.
    This touches on both the challenge and reward of playing this class;
    incidentally it also separates Warg player-characters from those who mostly play visible classes
    (i.e. those who play Warg Stalkers during off-hours,
    or are not of the mind-set to stalk with this class
    but instead maintain the habit of facing opponents head-on).
    Whether or not they will admit to it or even realize it,
    it is first and foremost the play-style that people object to,
    not the actual abilities.

    Furthermore, people often wrongly compare Stalkers to Burglars.
    Especially with the ridiculous skills like Improved Cunning Attack
    which often do not register in the Combat Log at all
    or are displayed well after it says the character has been incapacitated in less than 2 seconds
    (and this may be more related to another recent thread on Scaling, I realize),
    the comparison is unfair and unjust.
    Whereas Burglars are assassins out there one-shotting their foes,
    Stalkers are more like scavengers
    and can do 15k damage with a single skill at most, depending on rank on other variables.

    IF you make adjustments to this class by tampering with their dps or criticals (and I hope you do not),
    please consider returning the cd on Disappear to its previous state
    in addition to allowing Hobbit Trackers and Sense Prey to work independently of each other.

    ~ Thank you
    Last edited by Breeon; Oct 20 2017 at 10:31 AM. Reason: additional thoughts

 

 
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