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  1. #1

    Post PvMP fast balance passes

    Hey folks, Vastin here.

    As you can no doubt tell, we've been going through the motions but PvMP has been overlooked for a while due to our focus on the player side and Mordor.

    While adjustments were made for the general bump in power level, the creeps have nevertheless been left behind. They got the same base level bump that the players did, but unsurprisingly, the players stat jumps were compounded by benefits from several sources (base, gear, IL's, essences, traits, audacity, etc), that outpaced the relatively few sources that creeps are designed with.

    I want to take some time over the next month or two to make a series of fast passes over the creep dps and toughness sources to bring them back into line and get a better sense of what that compounded factor is so that we can work it into their advancement in future updates. It's much easier to approach PvMP balance from the creep side, because the statistics that make up a monster player are far fewer and I can rapidly iterate on their relative strength very rapidly in a way that I absolutely cannot do with the Freeps.

    I will be using a bracketing method, so expect some slightly wild swings on Bullroarer as I work to re-discover some equilibrium. It'll be fun, and hopefully with your feedback we can get the ettenmoors back into a competitive shape.

    I will also be looking at trying to get the dps/vitality ratios of the two sides more similar looking, so that one side isn't a huge bag of HP with low DPS and vice versa - it's much easier to manage balance when the two sides are using sets of numbers that at least resemble each other.

    First pass will be a pretty major bump to creep DPS, as that is clearly anemic at the moment compared to the NPC vitality in the area. This ought to show up as soon as we begin testing 21.3, but my goal is to make multiple iteration passes before 21.3 actually releases.

    -Vastin

  2. #2
    Good luck.
    Arkenstone| Officer of Faded | Altria
    Arkenstone | Leader of Dark Impulse | Telcely
    Original Challenger of Gothmog


  3. #3
    Wow some good news finally.

    It would be really cool if you started off removing crit magnitude from critical corruptions as a starter. (6 corruptions) 90% critical magnitude does not work for creeps at all, since the way they were designed with skills and skill damage, was not intended to work with big critical multipliers. After removing critical multiplier from corruptions, you can start on working with buffing base dmg rather on them, which will make a much more balanced impact from creep dps over time. And removing short fights with RNG critical hit luck.

    Thank you!
    Thonras r13/r8 Blackarrow - Erenthenn r11/r7 Hunter- Seodric r11/r5 Burglar - Nomno r8 Warg - Grusnash r8 Reaver - Durumdor r7 Runekeeper - Flemendor r7 Champion - Carranham r6 Captain
    Challenger and Original Challenger of Gothmog - Evernight/Laurelin

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, Vastin here.

    As you can no doubt tell, we've been going through the motions but PvMP has been overlooked for a while due to our focus on the player side and Mordor.

    While adjustments were made for the general bump in power level, the creeps have nevertheless been left behind. They got the same base level bump that the players did, but unsurprisingly, the players stat jumps were compounded by benefits from several sources (base, gear, IL's, essences, traits, audacity, etc), that outpaced the relatively few sources that creeps are designed with.

    I want to take some time over the next month or two to make a series of fast passes over the creep dps and toughness sources to bring them back into line and get a better sense of what that compounded factor is so that we can work it into their advancement in future updates. It's much easier to approach PvMP balance from the creep side, because the statistics that make up a monster player are far fewer and I can rapidly iterate on their relative strength very rapidly in a way that I absolutely cannot do with the Freeps.

    I will be using a bracketing method, so expect some slightly wild swings on Bullroarer as I work to re-discover some equilibrium. It'll be fun, and hopefully with your feedback we can get the ettenmoors back into a competitive shape.

    I will also be looking at trying to get the dps/vitality ratios of the two sides more similar looking, so that one side isn't a huge bag of HP with low DPS and vice versa - it's much easier to manage balance when the two sides are using sets of numbers that at least resemble each other.

    First pass will be a pretty major bump to creep DPS, as that is clearly anemic at the moment compared to the NPC vitality in the area. This ought to show up as soon as we begin testing 21.3, but my goal is to make multiple iteration passes before 21.3 actually releases.

    -Vastin
    Thank you for taking the time to explain the issues and for making a commitment to do something about it soon. I notice that combat can go very fast in the Moors these days which can remove some of the strategy and gamesmanship- i.e. 3 clicks and you are dead.

    May I suggest that you also consider audacity dps reduction to extend the fights a bit for BOTH Freeps and Creeps? This gives you two levers to pull as you strive to rebelance things. In any event, I'm sure we all wish you well. God speed sir. God speed!!

    Aa/Cor

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    I will be using a bracketing method, so expect some slightly wild swings on Bullroarer as I work to re-discover some equilibrium. It'll be fun, and hopefully with your feedback we can get the ettenmoors back into a competitive shape. ;

    -Vastin
    Thank you, thank you, thank you. Your time is appreciated and I have full confidence that we can achieve a better balance if we all engage with reasonable expectations. I have a big tribe on Ark that I am happy to volunteer for this effort.

    Cohorts- that means you've been voluntold for constructive, non-whining feedback.

    Vastin says we'll get some fast passes- so let's make the most of the opportunity we have been given, and not give him reason to regret it. Lamenting what we do not have is worthless, and intractable complainers who don't play anymore should bow out, please.
    Last edited by maetamaeta; Oct 12 2017 at 08:11 PM.
    Nazvukat, R15 BA, Creep Raid Leader, Leader of Cohorts of the Red Legion

  6. #6
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    707
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, Vastin here.

    As you can no doubt tell, we've been going through the motions but PvMP has been overlooked for a while due to our focus on the player side and Mordor.

    While adjustments were made for the general bump in power level, the creeps have nevertheless been left behind. They got the same base level bump that the players did, but unsurprisingly, the players stat jumps were compounded by benefits from several sources (base, gear, IL's, essences, traits, audacity, etc), that outpaced the relatively few sources that creeps are designed with.

    I want to take some time over the next month or two to make a series of fast passes over the creep dps and toughness sources to bring them back into line and get a better sense of what that compounded factor is so that we can work it into their advancement in future updates. It's much easier to approach PvMP balance from the creep side, because the statistics that make up a monster player are far fewer and I can rapidly iterate on their relative strength very rapidly in a way that I absolutely cannot do with the Freeps.

    I will be using a bracketing method, so expect some slightly wild swings on Bullroarer as I work to re-discover some equilibrium. It'll be fun, and hopefully with your feedback we can get the ettenmoors back into a competitive shape.

    I will also be looking at trying to get the dps/vitality ratios of the two sides more similar looking, so that one side isn't a huge bag of HP with low DPS and vice versa - it's much easier to manage balance when the two sides are using sets of numbers that at least resemble each other.

    First pass will be a pretty major bump to creep DPS, as that is clearly anemic at the moment compared to the NPC vitality in the area. This ought to show up as soon as we begin testing 21.3, but my goal is to make multiple iteration passes before 21.3 actually releases.

    -Vastin
    I appreciate your communication. I'll see you in Bullroarer soon.
    One of the challenges for you in balancing the DPS and Morale from creeps/freeps is gonna be avoiding the One-shot skills. I would love to hear your communication on other things, so please check your PMs

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Vastin View Post
    Hey folks, Vastin here.

    As you can no doubt tell, we've been going through the motions but PvMP has been overlooked for a while due to our focus on the player side and Mordor.

    While adjustments were made for the general bump in power level, the creeps have nevertheless been left behind. They got the same base level bump that the players did, but unsurprisingly, the players stat jumps were compounded by benefits from several sources (base, gear, IL's, essences, traits, audacity, etc), that outpaced the relatively few sources that creeps are designed with.

    I want to take some time over the next month or two to make a series of fast passes over the creep dps and toughness sources to bring them back into line and get a better sense of what that compounded factor is so that we can work it into their advancement in future updates. It's much easier to approach PvMP balance from the creep side, because the statistics that make up a monster player are far fewer and I can rapidly iterate on their relative strength very rapidly in a way that I absolutely cannot do with the Freeps.

    I will be using a bracketing method, so expect some slightly wild swings on Bullroarer as I work to re-discover some equilibrium. It'll be fun, and hopefully with your feedback we can get the ettenmoors back into a competitive shape.

    I will also be looking at trying to get the dps/vitality ratios of the two sides more similar looking, so that one side isn't a huge bag of HP with low DPS and vice versa - it's much easier to manage balance when the two sides are using sets of numbers that at least resemble each other.

    First pass will be a pretty major bump to creep DPS, as that is clearly anemic at the moment compared to the NPC vitality in the area. This ought to show up as soon as we begin testing 21.3, but my goal is to make multiple iteration passes before 21.3 actually releases.

    -Vastin

    My best advice: don't do a wild pendulum swing. More than anything else, I want action and that means I want freeps to come out. Creeps don't need that much help, just a little. Also, you seem to focus on DPS above. My warg absolutely doesn't need more DPS, he needs defensive help so he doesn't have to pick between being 1 shot by burgs or 1 shot by hunters or do zero DPS and not get 1 one shot by either. So my second best advice? Make it easy on yourself and just give a few more corruption slots. With the number of gear options freeps have, it's not crazy to give us 6 more slots. I don't play other creep classes unfortunately so I can't say for sure it would be a fix-all for every class but I can honestly say, more corruption slots would solve any current issues for at least the warg class.

    In any case, thanks for offering a glimmer.
    Last edited by DrRabbitfoot; Oct 12 2017 at 08:52 PM.
    Team Milt.

  8. #8
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    We need to keep the PvP trash talk out of this thread, so we'll be trying to keep things organized and helpful. This is a great chance to get some much-needed balance to PvMP, with your help.
    Community Manager, Lord of the Rings Online
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    coolcool

  9. #9
    A few suggestions for big overall changes:

    1. Base stats for Creeps MUST be buffed, and Corruptions SHOULD be nerfed. Finesse, Resistance, Mitigations, Critical Defense, Critical Rating- all are at HORRIFICALLY low levels (4% finesse without corruptions, where as I was at 22% pre-Mordor). They all need to be buffed to around pre-Mordor numbers, and for Finesse, the Finesse corruptions did nothing, because it requires me to slot ALL 6 to reach the finesse I was at PRE-update. That's far too many valuable slots. We don't need additional corruption slots, either, we just need strong base stats.I did a pretty decent amount of math detailing the percentage numbers that needed increasing for all of these stats in this thread: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...tions-Feedback.

    In terms of justification for buffing stats and nerfing corruptions, in the CURRENT build, anyone lacking in Crit Corruptions does hardly ANY damage, anyone lacking in Mitigation corruptions has hardly ANY defense, and those with no Finesse slotted have almost NO Finesse, etc. In terms of Crit/Mitigation, it means you can slap on 6 Pmit and six crit, and have good stats, but be COMPLETELY open to Tactical damage, have no morale slotted, and have no finesse. You can specialize a ton, but it leads to an INCREDIBLE amount of unpredictability, "gimicky-ness," and unhappiness in terms of fair play on BOTH sides.

    Buffing main stats and nerfing corruptions to be SMALL customization bonuses would allow for more balanced fights, and prevent EITHER side from feeling cheated, either from a lack of a stat (from a Creep's perspective) or Over-stacking mitigation/crit against a Freep (from the victimized Freep's persepctive). A BIG part of the problem in the Moors now is the massive discrepancy in gear/corruption builds, and the gamble/unpredictability of what to use.

    2. Crit Magnitude should be NERFED or REMOVED from Critical corruptions. The intent of the developers to add Critical Magnitude was well-intended, but it's not gone over very well. Creepside was never designed for such high Crit mag, and it left many of the skills on the skillbar feeling useless, and it broke Warg's Bestial Claws and Sudden Maul's auto-crit damage. IF CRIT MAG IS NERFED OR REDUCED, BESTIAL CLAWS/SUDDEN MAUL DO NOT NEED TO BE NERFED. However, if Crit Magnitude remains intact for Creeps, Bestial Claws damage needs to be distributed to other skills (numbers calculated here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...tealth-Classes).

    If Crit Mag from corruptions is nerfed/removed, BASE damage/mastery across all skills for Creeps should be buffed. I have honestly no idea by what % that buff should be by.

    3. A few Quality of Life Changes:

    1. Please nerf the Morale of Freep NPCs, it's disproportionate to their damage (compared to Creep NPCs for Freeps)
    2. Please consider making Audacity armor the only armor allowed for Freeps to wear, or consider some sort of major penalty for PvE armor. You can't balance around Raid gear for Freeps if not all Freeps are wearing Raid Gear.
    3. Take a careful look at the damage of Burglars and Hunters. Both are VERY easy to play, and do a LOT of damage. Even with better base stats, Creeps struggle badly with these classes.
    4. If Creeps do get love, consider nerfing Defiler heals. I know this one won't be popular with Creeps, but Defilers HPS is insane in Mordor- the only thing holding them back is the Mitigation dilemma. If that is fixed, for balance it may be worth examining Defiler heals.


    I'm sure I'll think of some more things as time goes on. Thank you Vastin/Cordovan!
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 13 Warg, Arkenstone~

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    A few suggestions for big overall changes:

    4. If Creeps do get love, consider nerfing Defiler heals. I know this one won't be popular with Creeps, but Defilers HPS is insane in Mordor- the only thing holding them back is the Mitigation dilemma. If that is fixed, for balance it may be worth examining Defiler heals.
    I'd like to qualify this with a different suggestion - defiler heals are OP because they stack - and with so many defi's about, this is a big problem.
    Against solo/small groups of freeps, defiler needs their self-heals and often only just manages to stay alive using them.
    I think it would be much better to limit the amount that each defi HoT can be applied to a player, even go back to how it was in previous times when they didn't stack at all.
    Seeing a WL at the front of a raid with 3 or 4 rows of defi HoTs is a little ridiculous.
    Also, the class is often played by people who simply throw HoTs here there and everywhere (often on undamaged targets) to get easy renown. I'd like to see this stop.

  11. #11
    I just thought of another thing, regarding NPC's:
    Their morale should be lowered to make them easier to kill, but it shouldn't go back to how it was before when it was insanely easy to capture keeps and OP's - they should do more damage instead.
    If they are going to be there at all they should have an impact in the game, or else why have them there?
    With lower morale and high damage they won't take an annoying amount of time to kill but there will be a consequence for attacking keeps/Op's - you will take damage.
    This will mean that only groups and not soloers will get away with taking keeps - as it should be.
    As things are with high morale and low damage NPC's are little more than an annoyance.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Disperate View Post
    I'd like to qualify this with a different suggestion - defiler heals are OP because they stack - and with so many defi's about, this is a big problem.
    Against solo/small groups of freeps, defiler needs their self-heals and often only just manages to stay alive using them.
    I think it would be much better to limit the amount that each defi HoT can be applied to a player, even go back to how it was in previous times when they didn't stack at all.
    Seeing a WL at the front of a raid with 3 or 4 rows of defi HoTs is a little ridiculous.
    Also, the class is often played by people who simply throw HoTs here there and everywhere (often on undamaged targets) to get easy renown. I'd like to see this stop.
    agreed
    Deathlyheals r13 defiler-Deadlyline r10 warg -karnage

    freeps-situational awareness

  13. #13
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    Lightbulb Make Freep F2P In Ettens Like Creeps

    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    2. Please consider making Audacity armor the only armor allowed for Freeps to wear, or consider some sort of major penalty for PvE armor. You can't balance around Raid gear for Freeps if not all Freeps are wearing Raid Gear.
    Not sure how anyone new to PvMP on the Freep side would then be able to ever join in Ettens ??? I mean it's not like You can buy audacity gear straight off the bat. You have to PvP to earn the barter currency to get audacity gear. So for a new Freep PvMP player with no PvP currency that would be a nightmare. They would join and end up as cannon fodder for the Creeps, die over and over again and probably end up leaving Ettens fairly fast to never return as that would not be a fun experience.

    My own suggestion in general (not regarding that issue) would be to make it so even F2P Players can join on ther Freeps in Ettens. It is one of the basic reasons it has often been unbalanced in the sense that there will always be more creeps in Ettens than Freeps. At least it's a large contributing factor. Not always but often that is the case and that the players that live to PvMP often live in Ettens purely on their creeps and master the art of PvMP on their class, while Freeps never have that available unless they are subscribed which not all are all the time but only during some periods. Maybe do it like You do for the creeps and make one class free to play (possibly champ as that would be the equivalent of the reaver which is free) and then make it possible to unlock more Freep classes with LP. Not requiring a subscription. That would only be fair as then both sides have same possibility to join in Ettens.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord.Funk View Post
    Not sure how anyone new to PvMP on the Freep side would then be able to ever join in Ettens ??? I mean it's not like You can buy audacity gear straight off the bat. You have to PvP to earn the barter currency to get audacity gear. So for a new Freep PvMP player with no PvP currency that would be a nightmare. They would join and end up as cannon fodder for the Creeps, die over and over again and probably end up leaving Ettens fairly fast to never return as that would not be a fun experience.

    My own suggestion in general (not regarding that issue) would be to make it so even F2P Players can join on ther Freeps in Ettens. It is one of the basic reasons it has often been unbalanced in the sense that there will always be more creeps in Ettens than Freeps. At least it's a large contributing factor. Not always but often that is the case and that the players that live to PvMP often live in Ettens purely on their creeps and master the art of PvMP on their class, while Freeps never have that available unless they are subscribed which not all are all the time but only during some periods. Maybe do it like You do for the creeps and make one class free to play (possibly champ as that would be the equivalent of the reaver which is free) and then make it possible to unlock more Freep classes with LP. Not requiring a subscription. That would only be fair as then both sides have same possibility to join in Ettens.
    I've already admitted that it's likely that Aud Gear should just be free for Freeps, otherwise you'd run into that problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Justapvpdude View Post
    Obviously the devs have already abandoned this thread as they have no idea how to filter the feedback from delusional players without a clue of game mechanics from actually substantiaded feedback.

    While my opinion over Devs who never deliver promise PvP changes is pretty low, we've already seen Vastin respond to the suggestions given here, and say that he/she's working on implementing something in BR. If that's actually the case, then it's unlikely that he/she is concerned where this thread has continued.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 13 Warg, Arkenstone~

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord.Funk View Post
    Not sure how anyone new to PvMP on the Freep side would then be able to ever join in Ettens ??? I mean it's not like You can buy audacity gear straight off the bat. You have to PvP to earn the barter currency to get audacity gear. So for a new Freep PvMP player with no PvP currency that would be a nightmare. They would join and end up as cannon fodder for the Creeps, die over and over again and probably end up leaving Ettens fairly fast to never return as that would not be a fun experience.
    What you describe is exactly what it like right now on the other side as a new Creep; i.e. no fun & cannon fodder for the Freeps.

    An unranked Creep starts with virtually nothing & is no match against an unranked Freep with PVE gear.
    Last edited by Onror; Oct 22 2017 at 06:33 AM.

  16. #16
    I just came back to this game after many years away and was hoping to see some action in the PvMP zones (I wasn't even aware Osgiliath was a thing when I came back) but on Crickhollow it's been pretty dead creep side. I can't really talk about strengths or weaknesses but I hope that whatever you do can revitalize this portion of the game which I used to enjoy very much. I will say I am very glad to see this post from the team wanting to improve things. Gives me hope that you care about this aspect of the game and therefore makes me more willing to be a return customer.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordovan View Post
    We need to keep the PvP trash talk out of this thread, so we'll be trying to keep things organized and helpful. This is a great chance to get some much-needed balance to PvMP, with your help.
    I simply said what would and wouldnt work and you clipped me?
    Captain-General Ughidontknow...Tripso rnk 6 burg...Izeatzfreepz rnk 8 warg....Yells rnk 10 warleader
    Leader of The Hobbit Syndicate
    "Everyone wants to be the hero and no one wants to be support"

  18. #18
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    If you really want help you'll listen to people who play both sides of the table. People who can and do offer unbiased opinions on what works and what dont. Im all for giving that but if you're gonna cut out what you dont wanna hear then we cant help.

    You have to go back to basics. Altering numbers and multipliers wont cut it. Look at the skills, look at the mechanics. Start there. Thats where the system is flawed and so hard to balance. You have systems that sometimes work, dont work or work too well(diminishing returns). Look at how classes are deriving their dps. Look at how an infant can repeat the same thing. Now spread that same dps over a more plentiful number of skills(wargs hunters burgs).
    Captain-General Ughidontknow...Tripso rnk 6 burg...Izeatzfreepz rnk 8 warg....Yells rnk 10 warleader
    Leader of The Hobbit Syndicate
    "Everyone wants to be the hero and no one wants to be support"

  19. #19
    This is some really amazing news, and I am excited to see what you are going to do for us. A few notes to start off with.

    Creeps
    • Base stats have not been scaled nearly enough, mitigations/finesse need to be higher.
    • Damage does not need to be increased much on any class except Reaver.
    • Corruptions should make less of a difference relative to base stats. Currently, traiting 3 of each mitigation is a necessity. Scale down the corruptions and make the set bonuses on 2 and 4 equipped, rather than 3 and 6.
    • Remove crit magnitude from crit rating corruptions, bump damage slightly.
    • Creep side NPCs still die like flies, other than Keep Tyrants (by virtue of tyrants being lvl 106). Even Outpost Tyrants are easily dispatched.

    Reaver
    Used to be a tanky class with high burst. In the current Moors environment, its survivability is laughable, and the burst potential is completely gone. It needs a significant damage boost. Ravage (this should be the main DPS skill), bleeds (especially Mutilation) and Severing Strike would be the skills that need to be increased to gain more consistent damage. If you want to opt to increase its burst potential, then increase Impale damage, but also increase Ravage damage, because Ravage is terrible right now.
    Perhaps it needs a reduction to self healing, if its DPS is increased, however.

    Blackarrow
    The overall state of Blackarrows is quite alright, and I wouldn't change much about it, after their base stats get scaled.

    Warg
    Warg needs a rework, as you are well aware. Its damage almost solely comes from Bestial Claws, Maul and Eye Gouge. Details on how to redistribute damage to keep the DPS roughly the same (but slightly less) can be found here. This thread in its later pages also contains calculations that show the DPS would remain almost the same.

    Weavers
    Rely too heavily on two skills: Tainted Kiss and Mephitic Kiss. Reduce the initial damage of these skills, and add damage to Poison Spray, Lethal Kiss and Drink Deep. Moreover, Toxin is wildly out of control, and needs to be reduced by a fair amount (I would argue up to 40%). The max power reduction on Latent Poison is also too potent.
    All in all, weavers are a debuffing class, not a DPS class.

    Defilers
    Heals are definitely too strong, especially if their base stats are to be scaled up. Fertile Slime needs to be nerfed slightly (~10-15%), and Fell Restoration needs a similar treatment, perhaps even a 30% reduction on it would be appropriate.

    War-leaders
    Debuffs/buffs from banners need to be tuned properly. Their damage is pretty abysmal, and since their healing isn't over the top either, one of those two could use a bit of an increase. Overall not in a bad state, however.

    Freeps
    • Scaled freeps are broken, but you are aware of this.
    • Find a way to enforce PvMP gear/jewellery, so that you can create a stat template for freeps. This way, it will become so much easier for you to balance PvMP in the future.
    • Hunters/Burglars need a damage reduction in PvP.
    • Skills that return morale on being hit need to be looked at (Guardian: Bring on the Pain, Beorning: Thickened Hide)
    • Disable store buffs in PvMP (I guess this applies to creeps as well).


    This is but a small list compared to the ideas that I and others have had over the course of the past few years, but I hope that you will at least take some of these ideas into consideration.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    This is some really amazing news, and I am excited to see what you are going to do for us. A few notes to start off with.

    Creeps
    • Base stats have not been scaled nearly enough, mitigations/finesse need to be higher.
    • Damage does not need to be increased much on any class except Reaver.
    • Corruptions should make less of a difference relative to base stats. Currently, traiting 3 of each mitigation is a necessity. Scale down the corruptions and make the set bonuses on 2 and 4 equipped, rather than 3 and 6.
    • Remove crit magnitude from crit rating corruptions, bump damage slightly.
    • Creep side NPCs still die like flies, other than Keep Tyrants (by virtue of tyrants being lvl 106). Even Outpost Tyrants are easily dispatched.

    Reaver
    Used to be a tanky class with high burst. In the current Moors environment, its survivability is laughable, and the burst potential is completely gone. It needs a significant damage boost. Ravage (this should be the main DPS skill), bleeds (especially Mutilation) and Severing Strike would be the skills that need to be increased to gain more consistent damage. If you want to opt to increase its burst potential, then increase Impale damage, but also increase Ravage damage, because Ravage is terrible right now.
    Perhaps it needs a reduction to self healing, if its DPS is increased, however.

    Blackarrow
    The overall state of Blackarrows is quite alright, and I wouldn't change much about it, after their base stats get scaled.

    Warg
    Warg needs a rework, as you are well aware. Its damage almost solely comes from Bestial Claws, Maul and Eye Gouge. Details on how to redistribute damage to keep the DPS roughly the same (but slightly less) can be found here. This thread in its later pages also contains calculations that show the DPS would remain almost the same.

    Weavers
    Rely too heavily on two skills: Tainted Kiss and Mephitic Kiss. Reduce the initial damage of these skills, and add damage to Poison Spray, Lethal Kiss and Drink Deep. Moreover, Toxin is wildly out of control, and needs to be reduced by a fair amount (I would argue up to 40%). The max power reduction on Latent Poison is also too potent.
    All in all, weavers are a debuffing class, not a DPS class.

    Defilers
    Heals are definitely too strong, especially if their base stats are to be scaled up. Fertile Slime needs to be nerfed slightly (~10-15%), and Fell Restoration needs a similar treatment, perhaps even a 30% reduction on it would be appropriate.

    War-leaders
    Debuffs/buffs from banners need to be tuned properly. Their damage is pretty abysmal, and since their healing isn't over the top either, one of those two could use a bit of an increase. Overall not in a bad state, however.

    Freeps
    • Scaled freeps are broken, but you are aware of this.
    • Find a way to enforce PvMP gear/jewellery, so that you can create a stat template for freeps. This way, it will become so much easier for you to balance PvMP in the future.
    • Hunters/Burglars need a damage reduction in PvP.
    • Skills that return morale on being hit need to be looked at (Guardian: Bring on the Pain, Beorning: Thickened Hide)
    • Disable store buffs in PvMP (I guess this applies to creeps as well).


    This is but a small list compared to the ideas that I and others have had over the course of the past few years, but I hope that you will at least take some of these ideas into consideration.
    Very well put and agree with this 100% with the small note that Bestial Claws/Maul would be fine if they nerf Crit Mag.

    Also VASTIN

    Many of the creep racial traits haven't been updated, and still have level 100 cap-ish stats. Worth taking a look at if you have the time!
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 13 Warg, Arkenstone~

  21. #21
    I kept my initial post short, and this will be short aswell. Agree with what Spilo, Siipperi and Giliodor have said so far! These are good general guidances to how to tackle the problems that is in moors atm for sure.
    Thonras r13/r8 Blackarrow - Erenthenn r11/r7 Hunter- Seodric r11/r5 Burglar - Nomno r8 Warg - Grusnash r8 Reaver - Durumdor r7 Runekeeper - Flemendor r7 Champion - Carranham r6 Captain
    Challenger and Original Challenger of Gothmog - Evernight/Laurelin

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    This is some really amazing news, and I am excited to see what you are going to do for us. A few notes to start off with.

    Creeps
    • Base stats have not been scaled nearly enough, mitigations/finesse need to be higher.
    • Damage does not need to be increased much on any class except Reaver.
    • Corruptions should make less of a difference relative to base stats. Currently, traiting 3 of each mitigation is a necessity. Scale down the corruptions and make the set bonuses on 2 and 4 equipped, rather than 3 and 6.
    • Remove crit magnitude from crit rating corruptions, bump damage slightly.
    • Creep side NPCs still die like flies, other than Keep Tyrants (by virtue of tyrants being lvl 106). Even Outpost Tyrants are easily dispatched.

    Reaver
    Used to be a tanky class with high burst. In the current Moors environment, its survivability is laughable, and the burst potential is completely gone. It needs a significant damage boost. Ravage (this should be the main DPS skill), bleeds (especially Mutilation) and Severing Strike would be the skills that need to be increased to gain more consistent damage. If you want to opt to increase its burst potential, then increase Impale damage, but also increase Ravage damage, because Ravage is terrible right now.
    Perhaps it needs a reduction to self healing, if its DPS is increased, however.

    Blackarrow
    The overall state of Blackarrows is quite alright, and I wouldn't change much about it, after their base stats get scaled.

    Warg
    Warg needs a rework, as you are well aware. Its damage almost solely comes from Bestial Claws, Maul and Eye Gouge. Details on how to redistribute damage to keep the DPS roughly the same (but slightly less) can be found here. This thread in its later pages also contains calculations that show the DPS would remain almost the same.

    Weavers
    Rely too heavily on two skills: Tainted Kiss and Mephitic Kiss. Reduce the initial damage of these skills, and add damage to Poison Spray, Lethal Kiss and Drink Deep. Moreover, Toxin is wildly out of control, and needs to be reduced by a fair amount (I would argue up to 40%). The max power reduction on Latent Poison is also too potent.
    All in all, weavers are a debuffing class, not a DPS class.

    Defilers
    Heals are definitely too strong, especially if their base stats are to be scaled up. Fertile Slime needs to be nerfed slightly (~10-15%), and Fell Restoration needs a similar treatment, perhaps even a 30% reduction on it would be appropriate.

    War-leaders
    Debuffs/buffs from banners need to be tuned properly. Their damage is pretty abysmal, and since their healing isn't over the top either, one of those two could use a bit of an increase. Overall not in a bad state, however.

    Freeps
    • Scaled freeps are broken, but you are aware of this.
    • Find a way to enforce PvMP gear/jewellery, so that you can create a stat template for freeps. This way, it will become so much easier for you to balance PvMP in the future.
    • Hunters/Burglars need a damage reduction in PvP.
    • Skills that return morale on being hit need to be looked at (Guardian: Bring on the Pain, Beorning: Thickened Hide)
    • Disable store buffs in PvMP (I guess this applies to creeps as well).


    This is but a small list compared to the ideas that I and others have had over the course of the past few years, but I hope that you will at least take some of these ideas into consideration.
    These ideas are great.

    I too agree that freeps should only be able to wear moors armor. How to go about doing that so freeps aren't naked until they get the required amount of comms to get all 6 pieces of armor and some jewelry, I don't really know what could be done. Anyone have any suggestions regarding how to implement moors only gear?
    Elegost-1/Lavaro/Dynamyk/Dorinori
    Ascension

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by kingdain View Post
    These ideas are great.

    I too agree that freeps should only be able to wear moors armor. How to go about doing that so freeps aren't naked until they get the required amount of comms to get all 6 pieces of armor and some jewelry, I don't really know what could be done. Anyone have any suggestions regarding how to implement moors only gear?
    I don't think the devs could or should enforce raid armor as it would be difficult and not well received by the Freeps- who we need to see more of! However, the sentiment is a good one. If we all agree that the combats should be longer on both sides, then changing audacity may be the easiest solution. The defense modifier used to increase with the number of audacity points. If this mechanic was re-introduced, the "carrot" of increased survivability may be better than the "stick" of gating the Moors for gear and thus, help restore balance and reward folks for participating in the Moors rather than being given a flat reduction just for showing up.

    Another thing that comes to mind from all these great posts is the initial desire of SSG to do "fast passes" and make quick and easy changes. Reworking classes, skills and corruptions seems to be out of the intitial scope. If at the end of the day the factions AND classes have "relative" balance, the stated goals will be completed. So, KISS (keep it simple, stupid) may be the guiding principle - at least initially.

    That said, I have enjoyed the explosion of really good ideas and Cordovan's attempt to help this thread stay focused and helpful. Cheers!

    Aa/Cor
    Last edited by Corwelleon; Oct 13 2017 at 11:50 AM.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    This is some really amazing news, and I am excited to see what you are going to do for us. A few notes to start off with.

    Creeps
    • Base stats have not been scaled nearly enough, mitigations/finesse need to be higher.
    • Damage does not need to be increased much on any class except Reaver.
    • Corruptions should make less of a difference relative to base stats. Currently, traiting 3 of each mitigation is a necessity. Scale down the corruptions and make the set bonuses on 2 and 4 equipped, rather than 3 and 6.
    • Remove crit magnitude from crit rating corruptions, bump damage slightly.
    • Creep side NPCs still die like flies, other than Keep Tyrants (by virtue of tyrants being lvl 106). Even Outpost Tyrants are easily dispatched.

    Reaver
    Used to be a tanky class with high burst. In the current Moors environment, its survivability is laughable, and the burst potential is completely gone. It needs a significant damage boost. Ravage (this should be the main DPS skill), bleeds (especially Mutilation) and Severing Strike would be the skills that need to be increased to gain more consistent damage. If you want to opt to increase its burst potential, then increase Impale damage, but also increase Ravage damage, because Ravage is terrible right now.
    Perhaps it needs a reduction to self healing, if its DPS is increased, however.

    Blackarrow
    The overall state of Blackarrows is quite alright, and I wouldn't change much about it, after their base stats get scaled.

    Warg
    Warg needs a rework, as you are well aware. Its damage almost solely comes from Bestial Claws, Maul and Eye Gouge. Details on how to redistribute damage to keep the DPS roughly the same (but slightly less) can be found here. This thread in its later pages also contains calculations that show the DPS would remain almost the same.

    Weavers
    Rely too heavily on two skills: Tainted Kiss and Mephitic Kiss. Reduce the initial damage of these skills, and add damage to Poison Spray, Lethal Kiss and Drink Deep. Moreover, Toxin is wildly out of control, and needs to be reduced by a fair amount (I would argue up to 40%). The max power reduction on Latent Poison is also too potent.
    All in all, weavers are a debuffing class, not a DPS class.

    Defilers
    Heals are definitely too strong, especially if their base stats are to be scaled up. Fertile Slime needs to be nerfed slightly (~10-15%), and Fell Restoration needs a similar treatment, perhaps even a 30% reduction on it would be appropriate.

    War-leaders
    Debuffs/buffs from banners need to be tuned properly. Their damage is pretty abysmal, and since their healing isn't over the top either, one of those two could use a bit of an increase. Overall not in a bad state, however.

    Freeps
    • Scaled freeps are broken, but you are aware of this.
    • Find a way to enforce PvMP gear/jewellery, so that you can create a stat template for freeps. This way, it will become so much easier for you to balance PvMP in the future.
    • Hunters/Burglars need a damage reduction in PvP.
    • Skills that return morale on being hit need to be looked at (Guardian: Bring on the Pain, Beorning: Thickened Hide)
    • Disable store buffs in PvMP (I guess this applies to creeps as well).


    This is but a small list compared to the ideas that I and others have had over the course of the past few years, but I hope that you will at least take some of these ideas into consideration.
    i agree with all of this but i'd like to add for defilers: in combat res. i think it is really needed for the main creep healing class ?
    also making backdoors unusable while in combat would be really good idea too.
    Last edited by Deadly_Myths; Oct 13 2017 at 04:42 AM.
    champion,RK,warg,defiler,rvr.
    RIP lotro pvp.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    60
    Legggooooooooo

 

 
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