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Thread: The Update

  1. #1
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    The Update

    "many changes have been made."

    Well..what are they?

  2. #2
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    Changes have been made, certainly, to creepside, nerfs mainly...a few cosmetic buffs to main stats that do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to improve creep play whatsoever, your STILL going to log your CREEP....move 15 yards south of the rock at grams towards Lugz and get 2/3 shotted by a ####-Burglar or #######.......if you think thats worth the price of a VIP account good luck to ya!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by ScribeEzra View Post
    Changes have been made, certainly, to creepside, nerfs mainly...a few cosmetic buffs to main stats that do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to improve creep play whatsoever, your STILL going to log your CREEP....move 15 yards south of the rock at grams towards Lugz and get 2/3 shotted by a ####-Burglar or #######.......if you think thats worth the price of a VIP account good luck to ya!
    Yup. A sad end to PvP after all these years.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScribeEzra View Post
    Changes have been made, certainly, to creepside, nerfs mainly...a few cosmetic buffs to main stats that do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to improve creep play whatsoever, your STILL going to log your CREEP....move 15 yards south of the rock at grams towards Lugz and get 2/3 shotted by a ####-Burglar or #######.......if you think thats worth the price of a VIP account good luck to ya!
    Just curious... how many creeps do you think actually have a VIP?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by HiFice View Post
    Just curious... how many creeps do you think actually have a VIP?
    Most of my Tribe (40+ Active) are VIPs. That is likely due to the Moors being secondary - but some of us are in the Moors often.

    Cor/Aak

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Corwelleon View Post
    Most of my Tribe (40+ Active) are VIPs. That is likely due to the Moors being secondary - but some of us are in the Moors often.

    Cor/Aak
    You have 40+ active people in a tribe outside of Arkenstone? I'll stop you right there because that is complete BS.

  7. #7
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    my tribe on Crick before Mordor had 30-40 regulars, not all were on at the same time due to location and time zones, but 30-40 regular creeps was the norm pre mordor.

    Now it's just me, Tyrant Akulhun and some tumbleweed blowing by, and the Tyrant has his suitcases packed.
    Last edited by ScribeEzra; Dec 11 2017 at 03:23 PM.

  8. #8
    Corwellians tribe is the most active on landy atm. i've seen 12+ online at once so 40 members is not a stretch
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by subadar View Post
    Corwellians tribe is the most active on landy atm. i've seen 12+ online at once so 40 members is not a stretch
    We can sometimes field 24 on raid nights. The Kin has 40+ active members, most of which have a Creep. It’s certainly been less active since the Mordor update, but we do have a good core and many casuals- most of whom are VIP.

    Cor/Aak

  10. #10
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    All of us Creeps wish this was the update to revitalize pvp, sadly it isn't. Lessons should be learned, not least of which is WHO TO LISTEN TOO....forget solo heroes.......CREEPSIDE has always been about group play, when that's failing you have a SERIOUS problem with OP mechanics.

    SSG, the 'l33ts' are always going to be there, its the general populace your losing, creeps are sooooo pathetic before rk 6 no freeps want to roll them and get smashed, this IS a big problem, it's fine when your 12-15 but for low rank creeps your dogmeat , I've actually seen a scaled rk 39 burg tear a rk 3 reaver a new one....ponder that!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScribeEzra View Post
    All of us Creeps wish this was the update to revitalize pvp, sadly it isn't.
    Let's be honest, NOBODY thought that a "fast pass" was going to bring back pvp. The vast majority of players were cynical from the start or they quit long time ago.

    You're in the minority if you thought pvp was going to be magically revitalized by marginally raising X stat.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScribeEzra View Post
    I'm already looking at other games, some of which look very promising.
    You said this over a week ago, how's that going for you?

  12. #12
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    i'll looking properly over Christmas, when I have the time, seen some good looking ones which look promising.

    'NOBODY' is the defeatist attitude, I think they can make this work if they have the will and the sense to NOT listen to glory-hunting solo'ers, they're always going to be there, it's the general populace your losing.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScribeEzra View Post
    I've actually seen a scaled rk 39 burg tear a rk 3 reaver a new one....ponder that!
    There's about 3 scenario's that come to mind, all of which are more likely to have occurred than what you're implying.

    Creeps are formed in such a way that, in terms of stats alone, more often than not balancing solo play leads to good group play. The stat disadvantage creeps have was a big problem for solo creeps. In terms of group fights, this disadvantage would multiply in effect, but at the end of the day it was still the same disadvantage. The only difference was that it is observed in grouping conditions rather than solo conditions.

    Ergo, fixing the solo disparity would go a very long way to achieving group balance. This is because the disparity in group play exists for the same underlying reasons that cause the disparity in solo play. Fixing the issue will lead to better of both styles of play.
    If you actually sat down and thought about what has been going on, and look at some actual data, you'd see that most of the suggestions of the ""elite"" can be equally made by grouping 'purists', who do nothing but coordinate group fights.

    You refer to 'the general populace'. But not even the 'general populace' can be considered group purists.
    Sitting in a fellowship, following a target assist and running back and forth between a rez point and a keep backdoor is not coordinating anymore than the trash mobs in the new raid "coordinate" by attacking the tank. The 'general populace' barely apply their cognitive faculties to anything more than the most basic PvP principles. For most, there's literally zero grounds to consider the opinions of the 'general populace' to be worth the effort giving feedback.

    They simply do not think things through to any depth.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Constrictions View Post
    There's about 3 scenario's that come to mind, all of which are more likely to have occurred than what you're implying.

    Creeps are formed in such a way that, in terms of stats alone, more often than not balancing solo play leads to good group play. The stat disadvantage creeps have was a big problem for solo creeps. In terms of group fights, this disadvantage would multiply in effect, but at the end of the day it was still the same disadvantage. The only difference was that it is observed in grouping conditions rather than solo conditions.

    Ergo, fixing the solo disparity would go a very long way to achieving group balance. In effect, the disparity is there for the same underlying reasons.
    If you actually sat down and thought about what has been going on, and look at some actual data, you'd see that most of the suggestions of the ""elite"" can be equally made by grouping 'purists', who do nothing but coordinate group fights.

    You refer to 'the general populace'. But not even the 'general populace' can be considered group purists.
    Sitting in a fellowship, following a target assist and running back and forth between a rez point and a keep backdoor is not coordinating anymore than the trash mobs in the new raid "coordinate" by attacking the tank. The 'general populace' barely apply their cognitive faculties to anything more than the most basic PvP principles. For most, there's literally zero grounds to consider the opinions of the 'general populace' to be worth the effort giving feedback.

    They simply do not think things through to any depth.
    Completely agree. When "coordination" of RvR boils down to calling out VTs and calling out focus targets, then there's no virtue behind it anymore. In addition, proven time and time again, folks that usually only RvR usually have only very fundamental understanding of what exactly makes individual classes tick, what's broken, and what's not. It's similar to when Freep mains have no clue about Creep balance, and vice versa.

    The more time I spend in this game, the more I realize that balance discussions are fruitless unless a couple gameplay shifts occur. Chiefly, standardizing Freep gearing, and secondly, discouraging and encouraging various types of gameplay interactions int he Moors. Buff and nerfs only last so long, and don't come anywhere close to addressing individual class issues.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 13 Warg, Arkenstone~

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    In addition, proven time and time again, folks that usually only RvR usually have only very fundamental understanding of what exactly makes individual classes tick, what's broken, and what's not. It's similar to when Freep mains have no clue about Creep balance, and vice versa.
    This is absolutely spot on!
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler
    Casinari - Original Challenger of Saruman Minstrel

  16. #16
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Completely agree. When "coordination" of RvR boils down to calling out VTs and calling out focus targets, then there's no virtue behind it anymore. In addition, proven time and time again, folks that usually only RvR usually have only very fundamental understanding of what exactly makes individual classes tick, what's broken, and what's not. It's similar to when Freep mains have no clue about Creep balance, and vice versa. The more time I spend in this game, the more I realize that balance discussions are fruitless unless a couple gameplay shifts occur. Chiefly, standardizing Freep gearing, and secondly, discouraging and encouraging various types of gameplay interactions int he Moors. Buff and nerfs only last so long, and don't come anywhere close to addressing individual class issues.
    ^^^Exactly this^^^

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Completely agree. When "coordination" of RvR boils down to calling out VTs and calling out focus targets, then there's no virtue behind it anymore. In addition, proven time and time again, folks that usually only RvR usually have only very fundamental understanding of what exactly makes individual classes tick, what's broken, and what's not. It's similar to when Freep mains have no clue about Creep balance, and vice versa.
    Can we just take a moment to laugh at the sheer folly of this statement? Cohorts of the Red Legion tribe chat. (courtesy of Barby-1)


  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by HiFice View Post
    Can we just take a moment to laugh at the sheer folly of this statement? Cohorts of the Red Legion tribe chat. (courtesy of Barby-1)

    Naz is a nice lady, and does a good job with RvR, so I don't think it's fair to completely dismiss her abilities or opinions as a Raid Leader. I just don't think balance observations from Raid are as effective as GvG or solo.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Arkenstone~

    ~Rank 13 Warg, Arkenstone~

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by HiFice View Post
    Can we just take a moment to laugh at the sheer folly of this statement? Cohorts of the Red Legion tribe chat. (courtesy of Barby-1)

    I know and like Naz. She’s an excellent raid leader, and I’ve enjoyed being part of her raids. She’s a solid tactician, knows how use movement (both strategically and tactically) to her raid’s advantage. She also does a great job of calling targets, keeping her people focused, organized and fighting very effectively as a group. I used lead raids myself, so have a lot of respect for anyone who does it as well as Naz does!

    I think the point Spilo is trying to make, though, is more about what leads to an in-depth understanding about how a class, that you may not play, works. I started soloing exclusively about two-and-a-half years ago. Playing in the Moors just about every day since then, I’ll bet you I’ve had between 8,000 and 9,000 1v1s with wargs in that period of time. I’ve never played a warg, but I can certainly tell you the ins and out about how wargs work, their skills, their strong points and their week points. Can you say the same about RKs?
    Last edited by Nouri; Dec 19 2017 at 12:38 PM.
    Casinoari - Rank 15 RK
    Malakorou - Rank 10 Defiler
    Casinari - Original Challenger of Saruman Minstrel

  20. #20
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    Literally always the same people who so arrogantly think they alone know how to fix the moors and everyone else has no understanding of the game at all. Like they have some higher understanding and the rest of us peasant players just faceroll our keyboards when we play because our feeble minds cant comprehend the mechanics of this game, it absolutely pathetic and I find it exceedingly difficult to take those people seriously for a second.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    I know and like Naz. She’s an excellent raid leader, and I’ve enjoyed being part of her raids. She’s a solid tactician, knows how use movement (both strategically and tactically) to her raid’s advantage. She also does a great job of calling targets, keeping her people focused, organized and fighting very effectively as a group. I used lead raids myself, so have a lot of respect for anyone who does it as well as Naz does!
    Ok let's move past the "I like and respect X person so I'll agree with whatever they say" stage and actually talk about something meaningful. I like Nazvukat too, but when someone says something that is simply not true, then it's not true. End of discussion. The fact that they are a nice person does not change the statement itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    I think the point Spilo is trying to make, though, is more about what leads to an in-depth understanding about how a class, that you may not play, works. I started soloing exclusively about two-and-a-half years ago. Playing in the Moors just about every day since then, I’ll bet you I’ve had between 8,000 and 9,000 1v1s with wargs in that period of time. I’ve never played a warg, but I can certainly tell you the ins and out about how wargs work, their skills, their strong points and their week points. Can you say the same about RKs?
    Well you wouldn't know this, but RK was one of my mains before the endgame grind became unfavorable to alts so I stopped playing that class.

    But even if I didn't play an RK, I can just ask someone who is good at RK to tell me the in-and-outs of RK. You don't need to necessarily play a class solo for "2.5 years" to know how it works. I can pick up any class and basically be good or know everything about it in a short period of time. It's really not hard at all. I just simply choose to play certain classes because I find those to be the most enjoyable out of personal preference. Just because I play X class does not mean I know nothing about every other class.

    But there are people who play X class and only know that class, nothing else. It's THOSE people who are problematic in these balance discussions.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparrrda View Post
    Literally always the same people who so arrogantly think they alone know how to fix the moors and everyone else has no understanding of the game at all. Like they have some higher understanding and the rest of us peasant players just faceroll our keyboards when we play because our feeble minds cant comprehend the mechanics of this game, it absolutely pathetic and I find it exceedingly difficult to take those people seriously for a second.
    in their defense, only role players who want to spend all their money play this super simplified game so most of the playerbase actually does do what you say they don't.
    however, the people who think they can fix the game alone fail to realize it's a 10 yr old f2p game that's been handed down twice after being milked and is currently run by 2 indie devs and all the actual good players are long gone, so their attempts to be a god in pvp are heart breakingly sad.

    BE NICE TO THEM
    Last edited by lance20100; Dec 19 2017 at 01:10 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiFice View Post
    Ok let's move past the "I like and respect X person so I'll agree with whatever they say" stage and actually talk about something meaningful. I like Nazvukat too, but when someone says something that is simply not true, then it's not true. End of discussion. The fact that they are a nice person does not change the statement itself.
    There are players/leaders on both sides who leverage a massive disparity in numbers to zerg, sure. They don't necessarily need a raid to do it. However, RvR does not have to be a mindless faceroll. Before this recent fix, if you were fighting geared freeps on even footing, creeps had no choice but to use their brains- at the very least, I was trying to use mine! The margin of error when you're confronted with the kind of burst burgs/hunters could do is low because reaction times are shorter, if here is any. People have to pay attention. Does it demand as much precision as a 6v6 or 12v12, all other things being equal? No, at least not from the people in the raid, but that doesn't mean they can mindlessly mash keys, and a good fraid leader with geared freeps can demand a great deal of coordination in any case.

    Of course, I don't always have the privilege of fighting against better freeps. Especially when it comes to certain raid leaders I've been fighting for years, I am on auto-pilot just calling targets and positioning people, and no great strategy is involved because the action is very predictable. However, I have a tribe to keep motivated and alive for the next good fight. Short of zerging or GV/Rez camping, I'll stick around and fight whatever organized raid there is.

    What exactly do you find untrue in my argument? My statement is properly qualified here, but are you willing to qualify yours? Does RvR never require any brain cells?
    Nazvukat, R15 BA, Creep Raid and (Second) Leader of Cohorts of the Red Legion


  24. #24

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by HiFice View Post
    Can we just take a moment to laugh at the sheer folly of this statement? Cohorts of the Red Legion tribe chat. (courtesy of Barby-1)



    Hello, well being that Barby-1 hasn't had a toon in Cohorts of the Red legion for over a month now, I find it hard that he would have a screenshot of tribe chat.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by maetamaeta View Post
    There are players/leaders on both sides who leverage a massive disparity in numbers to zerg, sure. They don't necessarily need a raid to do it. However, RvR does not have to be a mindless faceroll. Before this recent fix, if you were fighting geared freeps on even footing, creeps had no choice but to use their brains- at the very least, I was trying to use mine! The margin of error when you're confronted with the kind of burst burgs/hunters could do is low because reaction times are shorter, if here is any. People have to pay attention. Does it demand as much precision as a 6v6 or 12v12, all other things being equal? No, at least not from the people in the raid, but that doesn't mean they can mindlessly mash keys, and a good fraid leader with geared freeps can demand a great deal of coordination in any case.

    Of course, I don't always have the privilege of fighting against better freeps. Especially when it comes to certain raid leaders I've been fighting for years, I am on auto-pilot just calling targets and positioning people, and no great strategy is involved because the action is very predictable. However, I have a tribe to keep motivated and alive for the next good fight. Short of zerging or GV/Rez camping, I'll stick around and fight whatever organized raid there is.

    What exactly do you find untrue in my argument? My statement is properly qualified here, but are you willing to qualify yours? Does RvR never require any brain cells?
    My statement is perfectly qualified. I've played pretty much every setting in PvMP. I've done soloing, small group, raids, leading raids, and leading small groups on both freepside and creepside. I've played in groups led by you or any other leader in recent memory, so I know how what generally happens in those fights/groups. So I'm not just talking out of my @$$.

    From my experience, 12v12 in principle is the same as 24v24 or 40v40 with the latter 2 being the extreme, the TA target either dies instantly or you switch. There is no skillful play involved, you either successfully zerg or you don't. The most you have to do as a leader is call the big skills like VTs, say when to push/fall back, blights, and that's about it. There is no need to pretend otherwise. This is the reason why most of the players that are in kins/tribes that mainly participated in RvR and are considered good, when found solo or in small group fights were extremely disappointing in terms of performance.

    The opposite is generally true of players who avoided that style of play. Case in point: Spilo almost never raids. He joined your raid for 10 minutes, instantly became shot caller and highest source of DPS as a reaver. Just let that sink in. When he mentioned he'd call out Impale/Dev Strike, he got awkward silence. (These are his words, I'm just repeating them.)

    Being a good player helps, but no Cohorts raid is composed of only skillful players. I know you can't say that because you're leader of that tribe and you have obligations to fulfill but it's the reality, let's just accept it. In addition, today's RvR situation is pretty bad like you said. The majority of freep leaders are ultra-conservative defensive leaders with mainly undergeared members in their raids, looking to hug BDs/keeps/oneshots until they have enough numbers to successfully zerg the other side.

    You can find some skill in 12v12 if all 12 are good players on both sides but it's highly unlikely to find a scenario like that, especially by chance in open field. Those types of fights have to be staged in an area like Old Plains to avoid goldtags.

    From my experience, Cohorts raids are almost always at 24 or 20+ fighting about the same number of freeps, with numerous goldtags on both sides depending on the fight location. This is most certainly not 12v12. This is most certainly not skillful play. This is just a lag-infested zerg for both sides.

    Just a side note: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you constantly wipe to Yand despite his raid-members lacking in gear. But when you wipe him with a bigger raid (not to mention goldtags), you say that the fight was easy. Just last week, you wiped 24v24 to Yand then Yarara needed to lead a separate raid even though the fight was already even in terms of numbers and the 24 man was waiting for the smaller raid to move before even leaving Grams.



    Context: You asked Yarara to make a separate raid and he was complaining after you basically made a 24 man raid shortly after logging in.
    Last edited by HiFice; Dec 19 2017 at 05:59 PM.

 

 
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