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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    There needs to be super rares to keep players playing past 5 runs. With no initiative to run there is no reason to do instance 50-60 times that you can easily do with rare drops. Those are fun and people who get overly offended that they don't get the super rare within x runs are simply having wrong attitude.
    I am not opposed to super rares, but what happens when the item drops for you after 5 runs? Are you going to destroy it so you have a reason to keep doing it? Unless the odds are lottery level rarity, a lot of people will get them relatively quickly/easily and the time sink wont exist for the lucky. There needs to be more or better reasons to do the existing content.

    I am all for super rares, but I would rather that be in the form of awesome cosmetics that look really cool and can give you a unique appearance, some cool housing cosmetics, etc. If you don't get those, you don't get them, they don't impact your effectiveness at doing harder content.

    I think progression gear should require equivalent or reasonable variance in terms of time to acquire. The rarer some progression items becomes, the greater the variance in terms of time and effort required to acquire them between the lucky and unlucky.

    Luck is always going to be a factor, but it shouldn't be the difference in terms of requiring a significant amount of extra time.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Do you do t2cms?
    Yes, I do. But never really bothered with the Hilt, personally, because of my many toons.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zvim666 View Post
    I am not opposed to super rares, but what happens when the item drops for you after 5 runs? Are you going to destroy it so you have a reason to keep doing it? Unless the odds are lottery level rarity, a lot of people will get them relatively quickly/easily and the time sink wont exist for the lucky. There needs to be more or better reasons to do the existing content.

    I am all for super rares, but I would rather that be in the form of awesome cosmetics that look really cool and can give you a unique appearance, some cool housing cosmetics, etc. If you don't get those, you don't get them, they don't impact your effectiveness at doing harder content.

    I think progression gear should require equivalent or reasonable variance in terms of time to acquire. The rarer some progression items becomes, the greater the variance in terms of time and effort required to acquire them between the lucky and unlucky.

    Luck is always going to be a factor, but it shouldn't be the difference in terms of requiring a significant amount of extra time.
    As I wrote earlier. People who get overly offended by not getting rares just have wrong attitude. Sure it sucks if someone gets rare on their first run than you where item might have taken 30 tries. However point still stand. Whole idea of rares is to have rare loot to keep excitement and interest longer.

    What comes to normal gear, I have always been in favour of 1 token per group over token currency (multiple items to barter), since I think thats what creates grind illusion. Item per group is easily handled by passing to player in need or in pug fair roll.

    A lot of why this whole thing been discussed is because people are so entitled. They think that simply by beating content multiple times they are entitled for rare loot when whole idea of rare loot is to be rare even after behind difficulty curve. Whole design is skill + luck item. As many other golden items in past and its fine.

  4. #54
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    Adding coins as rewards which you can exchange like, to name the last og times would be nice, so you've a fix progress. To run them X times and I've got the item of choice. But this shouldn't be locked behind a daylie. If someone wants to run this instances the whole day to get them faster let him.
    This for normal ( blue) gear/loot.
    Rare as in the silent street, rng in the chest with a chance of 5-10%.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Adding coins as rewards which you can exchange like, to name the last og times would be nice, so you've a fix progress. To run them X times and I've got the item of choice. But this shouldn't be locked behind a daylie. If someone wants to run this instances the whole day to get them faster let him.
    This for normal ( blue) gear/loot.
    Rare as in the silent street, rng in the chest with a chance of 5-10%.
    Thing here is that nature of item changes. It's no longer rare item but just normal item with immense grind requirement. Whole design of the rare item is that even after many runs its not guaranteed to drop and it has artificial limitation on availability. That's the beauty of system.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Thing here is that nature of item changes. It's no longer rare item but just normal item with immense grind requirement. Whole design of the rare item is that even after many runs its not guaranteed to drop and it has artificial limitation on availability. That's the beauty of system.
    I also prefer the RARE chance loot table concept.

    Way more exciting IMO.

    Otherwise its just grind with x times for each toon, which is boring as F.
    “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Thing here is that nature of item changes. It's no longer rare item but just normal item with immense grind requirement. Whole design of the rare item is that even after many runs its not guaranteed to drop and it has artificial limitation on availability. That's the beauty of system.
    won´t touch the rare items or at least a bit cuase golden rings for flowers or ashes will vanish but for this you get easier your normal gear and don´t have to hope for a drop and then that you can use it, as it is atm.
    or if they let it stay this way they should make the gear accountbound.
    it sucks that you allways find the good items with the wrong char. offhands with a cappie, shield with a champ etc. and you now your other char have use of it but no you can just destroy it.
    And even when you find one item for your class you must luck with the item level. This is just a stupid system
    Last edited by Mukor; Oct 01 2017 at 07:47 AM.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    As I wrote earlier. People who get overly offended by not getting rares just have wrong attitude. Sure it sucks if someone gets rare on their first run than you where item might have taken 30 tries. However point still stand. Whole idea of rares is to have rare loot to keep excitement and interest longer.

    What comes to normal gear, I have always been in favour of 1 token per group over token currency (multiple items to barter), since I think thats what creates grind illusion. Item per group is easily handled by passing to player in need or in pug fair roll.

    A lot of why this whole thing been discussed is because people are so entitled. They think that simply by beating content multiple times they are entitled for rare loot when whole idea of rare loot is to be rare even after behind difficulty curve. Whole design is skill + luck item. As many other golden items in past and its fine.
    You shouldn't try and psychoanalyse posters and their motivations. I love games that have super rare loot, it isn't a matter of being offended. I just don't think LOTRO is suited for that type of mechanism. I am a huge fan of ARPGs and I have probably sunk 100x the number of hours playing them than I have LOTRO and some of them have lottery like odds for finding the best gear and not getting the best item isn't a matter of being offended, that is all there is to these games, the rarity doesn't exist solely to be a treadmill to occupy time, it is a part and parcel of using probability to scale gear improvements the way their affix systems tends to work in these games and the number of stat affixes, you can play months/years and never get the best stats on any items in some of these games but over time you progressively get ones with better stats and that is how you progress your characters.

    LOTRO isn't built around that so something that is part of progression that is rare tends to stick out. I just don't feel that LOTRO has that design depth and they don't have the variety of content to pull it off imo.

    I think the vast majority of LOTRO players would find it annoying rather than rewarding. I make that assumption because almost everyone who raided had the hilt, except for the unlucky, and the vast majority of those who didn't raid didn't have it. The vast majority of players do not raid. Raiders went through the effort because it gave them an advantages, everyone else didn't because it was too annoying to farm one. If the general LOTRO player wanted that kind of rarity as a bonus to do content, the item would have been far more prolific over time, until it was replaced by a bartered item.

    I think the point of these feedback threads is to give advice to the devs on what is best for the game, perhaps not yourself personally. I would hate to see them repeat the same mistakes that harms the game's longevity.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Also no to the 3/6 man locks.. Theres literally nothing to do if theres locks for 2 instances.
    To each their own, but personally...

    There is nothing appealing about doing the same two dungeons (3-man and a 6-man) all day long (over and over again) just to grind out gear. Don't use the fact that there is nothing else to do in this game as justification not to implement daily or weekly locks.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denhith View Post
    To each their own, but personally...

    There is nothing appealing about doing the same two dungeons (3-man and a 6-man) all day long (over and over again) just to grind out gear. Don't use the fact that there is nothing else to do in this game as justification not to implement daily or weekly locks.
    Why exactly should we not use that excuse, when that is exactly the reason why there shouldn't be any locks?

    The only reason in favour of daily locks is that is would be impossible to exploit the instances to farm loot. I don't think there are any other valid reasons.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denhith View Post
    To each their own, but personally...

    There is nothing appealing about doing the same two dungeons (3-man and a 6-man) all day long (over and over again) just to grind out gear. Don't use the fact that there is nothing else to do in this game as justification not to implement daily or weekly locks.
    Don't run them more than once a week then. Easily fixed. However many of us like to do runs more than once in evening since usual completion time is sub 30 minutes, in many cases 15 minutes for group I'm in.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denhith View Post
    To each their own, but personally...

    There is nothing appealing about doing the same two dungeons (3-man and a 6-man) all day long (over and over again) just to grind out gear. Don't use the fact that there is nothing else to do in this game as justification not to implement daily or weekly locks.
    It has everything to do with the super rares. When a raiding group have a 6 man on a 15 minute farm, they farm it all day til they get their item, and then protect the super rare item that comes easily to them. That's the long and short of it. The rest of the player base, who do not have the time to play that way, get bored with trying to get a drop that is gated behind an insane farm, decide to go without and don't bother running the instance for it. The longevity is not just gone then, it's dead.

    That said, I don't like the idea of locks on 3 and 6 mans.

    The whole, if they add barter tokens, people will stop running the instances after 10, 15, 20 or whatever runs, is no different to a player stopping a run after dropping a rare item on their 1st, 5th, 10th run. It's a plastic argument. But to counter it anyway, as people will try to uphold it, this is where a lock could play its part. Not on the instance itself, but on the barter token. So if a gear piece needs 50 tokens, the limitation of one token per day max, provides the instance longevity. I know people who raid that picked a day to go get their hilt. They formed their group (high end raiders) went in and didn't stop until they got it - that day. That's not instance longevity. It just kills the instance once they have finished farming it, because everyone else has given up on it. What comes after it, because the farmers have finished with it, and the rest of the players had nothing to do while it got farmed - is BiS gear put under flowers, to keep the main population playerbase - playing. It creates a false sense that casual players do not want to run t2c 6 mans, when the reality is, they do, they just don't want to farm them in an insane fashion forever to get a single item, where the mechanic is that the less they farm it, the lower the chance of getting the item becomes, if they even get it at all. They abandon that. Cue - flowers.

    The Erebor raids had FA symbols gated behind a deed (then high numbers of seals thereafter), but they maintained the longevity of the raid by supplying the item inside the t2c raid itself. That provided reason to farm it, while at the same time, provided reward for players that didn't have the time to farm it constantly. It worked and people were running it right up until HD launched.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Oct 03 2017 at 10:43 AM. Reason: Edited for addition, but later - had to go out, RL called
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    It has everything to do with the super rares. When a raiding group have a 6 man on a 15 minute farm, they farm it all day til they get their item, and then protect the super rare item that comes easily to them. That's the long and short of it. The rest of the player base, who do not have the time to play that way, get bored with trying to get a drop that is gated behind an insane farm, decide to go without and don't bother running the instance for it. The longevity is not just gone then, it's dead.

    That said, I don't like the idea of locks on 3 and 6 mans.

    The whole, if they add barter tokens, people will stop running the instances after 10, 15, 20 or whatever runs, is no different to a player stopping a run after dropping a rare item on their 1st, 5th, 10th run. It's a plastic argument. But to counter it anyway, as people will try to uphold it, this is where a lock could play its part. Not on the instance itself, but on the barter token. So if a gear piece needs 50 tokens, the limitation of one token per day max, provides the instance longevity. I know people who raid that picked a day to go get their hilt. They formed their group (high end raiders) went in and didn't stop until they got it - that day. That's not instance longevity. It just kills the instance once they have finished farming it, because everyone else has given up on it. What comes after it, because the farmers have finished with it, and the rest of the players had nothing to do while it got farmed - is BiS gear put under flowers, to keep the main population playerbase - playing. It creates a false sense that casual players do not want to run t2c 6 mans, when the reality is, they do, they just don't want to farm them in an insane fashion forever to get a single item, where the mechanic is that the less they farm it, the lower the chance of getting the item becomes, if they even get it at all. They abandon that. Cue - flowers.

    The Erebor raids had FA symbols gated behind a deed (then high numbers of seals thereafter), but they maintained the longevity of the raid by supplying the item inside the t2c raid itself. That provided reason to farm it, while at the same time, provided reward for players that didn't have the time to farm it constantly. It worked and people were running it right up until HD launched.
    Erebor is a bad example all players do the raids until they get the maximum of what they can get,t1, t2 or t2c. Higher deed just lower the cost and after having it they just farm sambrog infinite.
    There where Too much better 50% chance in the t2 chest and for sure in the cchest.
    Giving rare items with a small drop chances is good for the longevity, maybe not one but three for each class. And once you've one the chance get smaller to find the others.
    Just look at the silent street people famr it until the wastes were released to get the hilt.
    And this should not happen, better landscape rewards are the dead of instances. Ranking must ever be landscape /craft<t1 instances < t2 inis <t1 raids< t2cinis< t2 raids.
    Until a new level up. This ensures the longevity of instances.
    Last edited by Mukor; Oct 03 2017 at 11:30 AM.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    Erebor is a bad example all players do the raids until they get the maximum of what they can get,t1, t2 or t2c. Higher deed just lower the cost and after having it they just farm sambrog infinite.
    There where Too much better 50% chance in the t2 chest and for sure in the cchest.
    Giving rare items with a small drop chances is good for the longevity, maybe not one but three for each class. And once you've one the chance get smaller to find the others.
    Just look at the silent street people famr it until the wastes were released to get the hilt.
    And this should not happen, better landscape rewards are the dead of instances. Ranking must ever be landscape /craft<t1 instances < t2 inis <t1 raids< t2cinis< t2 raids.
    Until a new level up. This ensures the longevity of instances.
    Raiders farmed it until they got the hilts for all their alts - sure. They were then in Throne, as they had exhausted tSS and got everything they needed from it - long before the wastes hit. The general occasional raider playerbase gave up on farming it, because they didn't have time to run it every 30 mins for however long it took until it dropped. The raiding folk I know, when into tSS for days at a time, til they dropped their hilt, then moved onto their next alt to rinse and repeat. There was no going back in there once the hilt was obtained because there's no reason to. Are you saying you continuously farmed the instance after you dropped the hilt? I seriously doubt that. Sure you may have gone back in to help your kin, but once they all had that done, that would have been the end of it. That kind of system works ok for the people who have that kind of time to farm. The rest, give up, don't bother with it, and get bored. They stop playing, and then we get flowers, to sweeten it all.

    BTW, nobody here is suggesting rare item out on landscape. It's nice to have rare items in instance runs, but it's also nice to have a barter system behind them too.

    For all this talk about keeping things ultra rare because it gives a grand sense of achievement and good longevity, if that were to hold true, we wouldn't have seen people asking for a trade-in mechanism at the raid barter, but hey, they all did. What was wrong with having to farm that forever?
    Last edited by Arnenna; Oct 03 2017 at 01:31 PM.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Raiders farmed it until they got the hilts for all their alts - sure. They were then in Throne, as they had exhausted tSS and got everything they needed from it - long before the wastes hit. The general occasional raider playerbase gave up on farming it, because they didn't have time to run it every 30 mins for however long it took until it dropped. The raiding folk I know, when into tSS for days at a time, til they dropped their hilt, then moved onto their next alt to rinse and repeat. There was no going back in there once the hilt was obtained because there's no reason to. Are you saying you continuously farmed the instance after you dropped the hilt? I seriously doubt that. Sure you may have gone back in to help your kin, but once they all had that done, that would have been the end of it. That kind of system works ok for the people who have that kind of time to farm. The rest, give up, don't bother with it, and get bored. They stop playing, and then we get flowers, to sweeten it all.

    BTW, nobody here is suggesting rare item out on landscape. It's nice to have rare items in instance runs, but it's also nice to have a barter system behind them too.

    For all this talk about keeping things ultra rare because it gives a grand sense of achievement and good longevity, if that were to hold true, we wouldn't have seen people asking for a trade-in mechanism at the raid barter, but hey, they all did. What was wrong with having to farm that forever?
    I don´t say the raiders but some of the others didn´t give up until the wastes were released and with them a new better pocket item.

    An other opportunity would be to give rare items which we can use multiple times, something like srolls of stats( crit, vita etc.) which you can read and get 500 crit or 20 vita of it. So there is no end and peolple run it continued.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    I don´t say the raiders but some of the others didn´t give up until the wastes were released and with them a new better pocket item.

    An other opportunity would be to give rare items which we can use multiple times, something like srolls of stats( crit, vita etc.) which you can read and get 500 crit or 20 vita of it. So there is no end and peolple run it continued.
    True indeed, just like they ran Erebor for the special gems for the Rohan rings, both to use, and to sell. They will also keep running it if they can obtain a barter coin each day, to put towards gear. You know what happens when they bury loot behind crazy rng grinds that the wider population cannot keep up with and eventually give up on? They start selling it because there is a huge market for it (wonder where they got that idea from). There ya go.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    True indeed, just like they ran Erebor for the special gems for the Rohan rings, both to use, and to sell. They will also keep running it if they can obtain a barter coin each day, to put towards gear. You know what happens when they bury loot behind crazy rng grinds that the wider population cannot keep up with and eventually give up on? They start selling it because there is a huge market for it (wonder where they got that idea from). There ya go.
    To lock the selling make it account or char bound and finally remove the option to sell bound items for mithrilcoins.
    And such permanent statrolls won't become worthless, you always can use more crit, mastery, mitigations Vita etc.
    First you can reach the cap, than remove such essences and gain slots for other stats and at least you have this stats for the next capraise.

  18. #68
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    My primary reason for some type of daily (preferably weekly) lockouts is burn out.

    We get very little in the way of group content in this game. To sit there and grind away at one or two instances for hours per day (and it happens)...it's jut not my idea of fun. I would be sick of the instances almost immediately.

    In an ideal setting, each instance would (guarantee) drop some sort of barter token--with enough tokens, you can barter for gear. The lock (weekly) would be on the number of barter tokens. In addition, the instance would drop gear (lower in ilvl than the gear you would barter for the tokens but better than what you are currently equipped). This should also be a guarantee drop as well (only at the end of the instance), with no lockouts.

    So as you work to earn barter tokens for the best gear, you still gain something by doing the instances daily. Enough with the RNG. Lastly, all of this gear would be bind to account and you couldn't sell it on the AH.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denhith View Post
    My primary reason for some type of daily (preferably weekly) lockouts is burn out.

    We get very little in the way of group content in this game. To sit there and grind away at one or two instances for hours per day (and it happens)...it's jut not my idea of fun. I would be sick of the instances almost immediately.

    In an ideal setting, each instance would (guarantee) drop some sort of barter token--with enough tokens, you can barter for gear. The lock (weekly) would be on the number of barter tokens. In addition, the instance would drop gear (lower in ilvl than the gear you would barter for the tokens but better than what you are currently equipped). This should also be a guarantee drop as well (only at the end of the instance), with no lockouts.

    So as you work to earn barter tokens for the best gear, you still gain something by doing the instances daily. Enough with the RNG. Lastly, all of this gear would be bind to account and you couldn't sell it on the AH.
    With weekly or even dayly locks it will need to much time to get the full setup. And will force players which want to run it more than once the day/week, to do it or without rewards. While no locks will disturb nobody everyone can run them as often as he wants. If you will run them 24/7 you can do it, if you want to run them once a day the same and once a week too etc.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    With weekly or even dayly locks it will need to much time to get the full setup. And will force players which want to run it more than once the day/week, to do it or without rewards. While no locks will disturb nobody everyone can run them as often as he wants. If you will run them 24/7 you can do it, if you want to run them once a day the same and once a week too etc.
    Out of curiosity, what is "too much time"? The new instance cluster and raid will probably be all we get for at least a year (if we go by what has come before). Let's dismiss the idea of daily locks, as I would prefer the weekly locks (barter tokens only). And what about the current RNG factor? Luck is cruel and unfair mistress. I'm more for working towards a set goal, with guaranteed drops and a barter token system. It may take some time, but I know I will have a full set for the work put into it.

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    I am happy that there's been some discussion about this. Remember that sometimes I update my OP. I would like to hear feedback on prices and availability of the items I have provided. Are there any items you would like to be available for barter? Are the prices too high, too low or fair enough? The way I imagined is that if you have one toon and you want to run the instance once in a day, you will have a maximum of 50 days, in case you never miss a run in a day, to get the rarest drop, unless you are lucky to get it otherwise from the challenge's chest. If you have alts, ofc you can then run it more times a day, but it will not affect the longevity of the instance since you would still take 50 days to get the rarest drop for all of your toons. I put some other things there as well, so you have a reason to continue running the instance even after you get the rarest drop.
    Your feedback so far has been already very helpful and appreciated and I'll continue to update my OP as I see more reasonable and well-thought-out arguments.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Denhith View Post
    Out of curiosity, what is "too much time"? The new instance cluster and raid will probably be all we get for at least a year (if we go by what has come before). Let's dismiss the idea of daily locks, as I would prefer the weekly locks (barter tokens only). And what about the current RNG factor? Luck is cruel and unfair mistress. I'm more for working towards a set goal, with guaranteed drops and a barter token system. It may take some time, but I know I will have a full set for the work put into it.
    So give it a weekly lock, running one instance in 15 minutes the week and what to do with the rest of the week.
    Dayly would be OK if there is a guaranteed runtime of minimum a hour.
    You must give the players something to do and this is given with no locks and rng.

  23. #73
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    Added Black Steel Key to the list of available barter items

 

 
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