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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninky View Post
    The grind has increased tremendously to staggering,tedious and incredibly overwhelming levels.
    Does this grind refer to attempting to read your posts?
    Eredor-Champion, Ereworn-Minstrel, Ereshorn-Runekeeper, Eresworn-Hunter, Eremourn-Burglar, Erehorn-Captain, Erelorn-Warden, Eretorn-Lore-Master, Erescorn-Guardian... And Erecorn-Master Farmer

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    While I do understand that nothing should be easy, specially when you are running a tier 2 challenge instance, and I know that the thought behind this is that you want to preserve the longevity of those instances you're releasing

    The solution is simple: Instance lock + Increased drop rate of rare items.
    I don't know if I'd agree on a 3/6 man instance. Unless the instances was of epic length like Carn Dum. These short little instances are designed to be spammable. At least since they got rid of radiance it was totally optional to do that. BIS gear in this game is rarely that important.

    I do agree with you on raids and raid segments. Those should be weekly locks and not spammable. Course, it'd also be nice to not lag in them.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  3. #28
    The problem with rarity of items is that it isn't indicative of personal achievement, just of an average achievement across the entire server or game.

    If something has a 0.00001% drop rate and you get it on your first run, that isn't really an achievement of anything other than dumb luck. It is honestly an archaic mechanism which doesn't reflect a personal investment of time and effort. You don't really want to give something super rate to someone too easily, you do not want to make someone have to do an instance 250 times if the average is 100.

    Randomness is an important tool for games in general, however, it shouldn't be relied on too heavily as it is a very unfair mechanism for those who fall into the well below average range of luck. One of my characters got a hilt from silent street after 5 or so runs, it was a character I didn't care too much about but on my main I never got one to drop and lost count of the number of attempts. I'd rather pick flowers than be stuck behind punishing mechanisms and I am not a fan of picking flowers.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Zvim666 View Post
    The problem with rarity of items is that it isn't indicative of personal achievement, just of an average achievement across the entire server or game.

    If something has a 0.00001% drop rate and you get it on your first run, that isn't really an achievement of anything other than dumb luck. It is honestly an archaic mechanism which doesn't reflect a personal investment of time and effort. You don't really want to give something super rate to someone too easily, you do not want to make someone have to do an instance 250 times if the average is 100.

    Randomness is an important tool for games in general, however, it shouldn't be relied on too heavily as it is a very unfair mechanism for those who fall into the well below average range of luck. One of my characters got a hilt from silent street after 5 or so runs, it was a character I didn't care too much about but on my main I never got one to drop and lost count of the number of attempts. I'd rather pick flowers than be stuck behind punishing mechanisms and I am not a fan of picking flowers.
    What is their alternative though? I agree with what you're saying about the deficiencies in randomness (though I would say that times that a person gets something super rare on their first roll, or first few, are lottery win type things), but the alternative is barter items and that's just so boring, it take completely away the thrill of the win. LOTRO is so dependent on barter items these days. I can't even keep track of them all, and when they unify them, it never lasts long until a new one is out, and that gets boring too.

    I think they should use the daily presents mechanism for looting. EVerything is loaded in the loot table and displayed. And then you roll. WHen you win somehting like you do the daily present, it becomes removed from the loot table and the rolling graphical depiction. At least that way you're still relying on chance, but it's not blind chance, there will be a guaranteed end where you get what you are looking for.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zvim666 View Post
    The problem with rarity of items is that it isn't indicative of personal achievement, just of an average achievement across the entire server or game.

    If something has a 0.00001% drop rate and you get it on your first run, that isn't really an achievement of anything other than dumb luck. It is honestly an archaic mechanism which doesn't reflect a personal investment of time and effort. You don't really want to give something super rate to someone too easily, you do not want to make someone have to do an instance 250 times if the average is 100.

    Randomness is an important tool for games in general, however, it shouldn't be relied on too heavily as it is a very unfair mechanism for those who fall into the well below average range of luck. One of my characters got a hilt from silent street after 5 or so runs, it was a character I didn't care too much about but on my main I never got one to drop and lost count of the number of attempts. I'd rather pick flowers than be stuck behind punishing mechanisms and I am not a fan of picking flowers.
    There needs to be super rares to keep players playing past 5 runs. With no initiative to run there is no reason to do instance 50-60 times that you can easily do with rare drops. Those are fun and people who get overly offended that they don't get the super rare within x runs are simply having wrong attitude.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    In instances where you can farm it over and over again in a short period (like 10-20 times in a day), eventually people will get sick of those instances, and people who have a lot of free time to play will get the items faster than those with less time, and both of those scenarios lead to less players for newbies to run with.
    Both of those examples will be true for some players at some times, but locks are guaranteed to lead to fewer players available to run an instance at any given time, even if those players would sincerely like to help.

    I don't have an ideal solution to suggest, but I don't believe locks would have a positive impact on the specific problem of player availability.

  7. #32
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    Does it really matter anymore? The only thing more annoying than it taking a ludicrous amount of attempts to get a rare item, is seeing the person who did it once getting that item. They really should remove RNG as a way to gain gear. The turnaround on gear at this point is so fast that having something take months to achieve means you have less time to actually enjoy it before you're back to grinding the next item. Adding locks, even with an "increased" drop rate won't solve anything, other than adding some more false longevity. I suggest you define how much of an increase, because that can mean anything from .001%-1000%.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredelas View Post
    Both of those examples will be true for some players at some times, but locks are guaranteed to lead to fewer players available to run an instance at any given time, even if those players would sincerely like to help.

    I don't have an ideal solution to suggest, but I don't believe locks would have a positive impact on the specific problem of player availability.
    I kinda understand your point, but I also understand that Featured Instances are very popular and people tend to run them 2x a day per toon, so I don't know if locking those instances will really make them unpopular, but... maybe we can all think on a better solution together. I understand some people want to run instance challenges more than once a day. My suggestion was really about locking the t2c challenge... I liked one of the ideas that were posted here. Maybe locking the Challenge quest in a daily basis (*Not* the challenge *chest*). Maybe this Challenge quest could provide a box with some rewards - 3 scrolls of empowerment, 1 star-lit crystal + barter items (which you can trade for rare drops), similar to how featured instances work. I am open for all kinds of suggestions. I am against super rare drops. I think we should be rewarded for putting a reasonable amount time and having skill, but you are not more skilled if you do a run 50x or 500x. When you have run an instance enough times that you consider it too easy, that's when you should start getting some rare stuff.

  9. #34
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    Guys, I updated the thread with new suggestions. Would love to hear feedback!

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    Guys, I updated the thread with new suggestions. Would love to hear feedback!
    People dont want daily locks especially when whole system is just pointless when you can switch for the loot and if that is prevented whole system just takes a piss on people who want to enjoy the game. Only place where locks make sense is raids.

  11. #36
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    Still cant get you point.

    Why locks in 3-6man?

    It seems you see those instances like an unecessary pain...to me and other raider kins...those instances are the point of the game.

    Next instance cluster will contain ONLY 2 instances...if you put locks on them..what should i do on this game? Signets/Ashes grind? You have no idea on how many players already left the game cause bored as hell.
    Rialtan - Rk - Ascensio Kin - Legit Challenger of Gothmog
    Stragnokka - Champ - Ascensio Kin - Legit Challenger of Gothmog

  12. #37
    I think the whole idea is too micromanaging here. Obviously we want less grind, but grind is inevitably a part of MMOs. Once the grind ends, the playtime on that too basically ends.

    Regarding SOEs, yes they're a part, but thorog runs and featured instances supply them. I really don't see the new instances funneling that much more other than similar to pelennor instances (a couple a run plus marks/meds).

    Regarding starlits. At the moment, throne of the dread terror gives plenty to get like 1 starlit per boss with leftovers. Plus there's skraids. If you're that low, just run ToDT like a lot have done before.

    Regarding the barter table, specific instructions negates the idea of expansion packs and updates. Like take any game. I liked the LOTR trading card game. Without a doubt, expansion packs changed things up by adding new skills. Mechanics in ROTK expansion did not exist in FOTR. All that to say, yes you want less of a grind, but developing a cookie cutter system won't do the trick.

    What I think is tough is the group/do gate on questing. That is, low dps classes and those that don't solo well are at a difficulty getting through Mordor. It's fun that it's harder. Sure, continued efforts are taxing, but for all that effort, it's just a deed at the end. At least it's not an insane grind to get gear that we know of. Armor was easy to get. Shadowed essences are easy to get. Overall I think it's doing okay.


    Update: agree with post above. Lots of players are already super bored cuz grind is over.

  13. #38
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    I'm down with the weekly quest idea. Say once a week you can beat Silent Street and get a hilt token. Get 10 hilt tokens and exchange them for a hilt of choice. That would be on top of the current system, so you can still grind away for hours on end if you feel lucky or want to help your buddies get their quest done. If you don't have time to grind, you know you'll get there eventually anyway.

  14. #39
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    If we got to speak to Vastin/FriendlyHat, I would genuinely want to talk about something other than grinding.

    That said, I think your suggestion would almost make it feel more grindy. If you feel like you work your way towards a certain item (like obtain 50 of those coins), it makes it feel much more grindy than when you just run the instance and hope for some good loot.
    I am not opposed to the idea of making constant progress towards what you want, if you can't obtain it through RNG, but the feeling of grind will be there regardless of what you do, so that wouldn't be the reason to implement it.

    Foundry (75 cap) used to have a bi-weekly lockout. I feel like that worked pretty well. Use the same system to award the crafting item that drops from the new instances (I believe?) twice a week.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialtan View Post
    Still cant get you point.

    Why locks in 3-6man?

    It seems you see those instances like an unecessary pain...to me and other raider kins...those instances are the point of the game.

    Next instance cluster will contain ONLY 2 instances...if you put locks on them..what should i do on this game? Signets/Ashes grind? You have no idea on how many players already left the game cause bored as hell.
    There are no locks... the challenge quests are simply daily because of the box they reward, it does not alter the loot at the end of the instance, you will still get the challenge chest as well as additional marks and medallions for completing the challenge, if you want to repeat how many times you want in that day. It's basically like the system in featured instances, you can do featured instances how many times you want, however you only receive the box once in a day. Got it?
    So you can do the challenge how many times you want in the same day, but you will only be rewarded with the box once in a day. It's simply an alternative for those that want to gear up faster for their alts, the numbers I provided in the barter exchange are meant to make sure that those instance stay relevant even after they bring new instance clusters.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    If we got to speak to Vastin/FriendlyHat, I would genuinely want to talk about something other than grinding.

    That said, I think your suggestion would almost make it feel more grindy. If you feel like you work your way towards a certain item (like obtain 50 of those coins), it makes it feel much more grindy than when you just run the instance and hope for some good loot.
    I am not opposed to the idea of making constant progress towards what you want, if you can't obtain it through RNG, but the feeling of grind will be there regardless of what you do, so that wouldn't be the reason to implement it.

    Foundry (75 cap) used to have a bi-weekly lockout. I feel like that worked pretty well. Use the same system to award the crafting item that drops from the new instances (I believe?) twice a week.
    I agree with you, I have other threads meant for Vastin/FriendlyHat which touch other subjects, such as the imbued LI system, you can check them out. I also am going to put some new threads about some poor legacy and trait designs in the near future. I can't comment too much on class balance as I only have one capped toon, so I leave other people to make their own threads about this subject. All I can comment about that is what I know from when all my toons were level cap at 105, I mostly have some suggestions for hunters (to make red line the best line) and beornings in mind.
    That said, I think you didn't fully understand my suggestion. This daily challenge quest does not affect at all the instances and their loots. You will get those boxes from those quests in addition to the loot of the boss chests. For example, you can still get the hilts from SS T2C chest, if you're lucky... *BUT*, if you're not lucky, you can trade your tokens for the hilt once you gather enough of them. This system only adds a new option for "altaholics" and new players who have waaay more grind to do than old players who already had their LIs maxxed out or that already bought Mordor... remember that some players will be in a rush next year with all the grind when they buy Mordor. There will be quest content to run in Mordor and the U22 area, imagine the pain for people with 4-5 toons and then they need to get geared for the raid(s) bc there will be a lot of competition, or even a new toon who doesn't have a lot of trait points, virtue ranks and low tier LIs.
    I wasn't a lvl capped player in the Isengard era, but I believe this system probably works similarly. If players feel it's too easy, please explain so I can try to understand your points.

    Edit: I am also gonna make thread for system designers about the current customization that we have with the gear, stats, essences, etc. I understand Vastin's intentions on things he made, but I think he's failed to notice a few things. This thread that I made now is basically one that I should have made months ago, but wasn't really in the mood back then.
    Last edited by DiogoVP; Sep 29 2017 at 09:15 PM.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    That said, I think you didn't fully understand my suggestion. This daily challenge quest does not affect at all the instances and their loots. You will get those boxes from those quests in addition to the loot of the boss chests. For example, you can still get the hilts from SS T2C chest, if you're lucky... *BUT*, if you're not lucky, you can trade your tokens for the hilt once you gather enough of them. This system only adds a new option for "altaholics" and new players who have waaay more grind to do than old players who already had their LIs maxxed out or that already bought Mordor... remember that some players will be in a rush next year with all the grind when they buy Mordor. There will be quest content to run in Mordor and the U22 area, imagine the pain for people with 4-5 toons and then they need to get geared for the raid(s) bc there will be a lot of competition, or even a new toon who doesn't have a lot of trait points, virtue ranks and low tier LIs.
    I wasn't a lvl capped player in the Isengard era, but I believe this system probably works similarly. If players feel it's too easy, please explain so I can try to understand your points.
    I am well aware of what you meant with your suggestion. What I'm saying is that, as soon as a fool proof way of obtaining otherwise random drops presents itself, people are going to see that way as the main way of obtaining the item. It then becomes a grind towards getting the required amount of tokens, and you might get lucky and get the drop on the way to your goal instead. The goal will still be the amount of tokens, though, and the grind will just shift from the running the instance until you get lucky, to running the instance until you get X tokens.

    That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see what you suggested in the game, I would very much encourage it.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I am well aware of what you meant with your suggestion. What I'm saying is that, as soon as a fool proof way of obtaining otherwise random drops presents itself, people are going to see that way as the main way of obtaining the item. It then becomes a grind towards getting the required amount of tokens, and you might get lucky and get the drop on the way to your goal instead. The goal will still be the amount of tokens, though, and the grind will just shift from the running the instance until you get lucky, to running the instance until you get X tokens.

    That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see what you suggested in the game, I would very much encourage it.
    I am glad you encourage it, but I disagree with it being more grindy... I agree when you say that the goal may shift, but it won't be more grindy, because what you have had is many people doing over 150 SS runs, for example, to get the rarest item of that run which was the hilt (I've heard some people say it took them more than 200 runs which is insane), with this system in place, it goes from over a hundred, to 50 runs... if you're lucky, it won't matter as you could then just spend your tokens on something else other than the rarest item which you got on a chest.

  19. #44
    I think a daily box wouldn't be alt friendly. If someone had 4+ geared characters they'd feel compelled to run each eligible instance 4+ times per day. One thing you have to consider is overall drop rates. I remember the devs saying that if they offer barter tokens they reduce drop rates to compensate. The ability to gain barter tokens, on a daily basis, may cause drop rates to be so low that all drops would be extremely rare.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercho View Post
    I think a daily box wouldn't be alt friendly. If someone had 4+ geared characters they'd feel compelled to run each eligible instance 4+ times per day. One thing you have to consider is overall drop rates. I remember the devs saying that if they offer barter tokens they reduce drop rates to compensate. The ability to gain barter tokens, on a daily basis, may cause drop rates to be so low that all drops would be extremely rare.
    It would definetely be more alt friendly than it is now. When did you hear the devs saying that? The devs are different now though, as far as I know we have two system designers only: FriendlyHat and Vastin. Vastin seems to have a very different perspective than those devs before him on many subjects. But even if they reduced drop rates to compesate, it would still be a better system, as running the same instance hundreds of times for one item is unbearable.
    I remember the case with trying to get the Spotted Steed with a friend of mine... I tried for 2 months everyday, every East Rohan warband... she got her spotted steed in the second week, and I tried to get it on 9 of my toons... 4 toons got them.
    So there were 4 drops out of nearly 1,500 warbands I farmed. I gave up since then... I am not gonna try it til they raise the drop rate or make it possible to barter. It would be easier to farm LP to buy a skin on the store than do that. LOL
    That's just an example of how RNG sometimes suck. I am all for less RNG and more merit.

  21. #46
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    There have been many suggestions provided to Turbine and SSG on how to reduce grind. We have been in Mordor for very little time and the new gear in the new instances will eclipse that of what we literally just got. The raid will come out in a couple of months and it will eclipse the instance gear. Most MMOs fall in to this treadmill approach to gear. If everyone only had one toon perhaps this would not be as big of issue ... Factor in 10-12 toons (or more) and it is sickening.

    There is no need to have a "throw it away and start over" approach to things. Legendary items are a prime example of this (albeit the system could use some work).

    I would prefer there were ways to gradually upgrade and customize our gear.

    I am also a firm believer that the rare items from an instance should be available from random drops, bartering tokens, and auto-bestowed after "x" completions (T2C being top tier). They should also be bound to account.

    I am not in favour of locks for 3 and 6 mans. It does not allow you to help kinmates etc.
    Dadi / Tyrlas - Arkenstone (Leader - Rare Breed Kin)
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proudcdn View Post

    There is no need to have a "throw it away and start over" approach to things. Legendary items are a prime example of this (albeit the system could use some work).
    Well apparently that's the kind of approach they wanna mantain.

    Examples: new tier of essences just couple months before new exp. Good to trash now. I full tempered 2 of my alts and i hoped till the end that there was some kind of mechanic to upgrade them.
    3 New tiers of essence for only 2 month of playing...cant upgrade t9 into t10. Just trash.
    And a lot of other little examples...
    Rialtan - Rk - Ascensio Kin - Legit Challenger of Gothmog
    Stragnokka - Champ - Ascensio Kin - Legit Challenger of Gothmog

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rialtan View Post
    Well apparently that's the kind of approach they wanna mantain.

    Examples: new tier of essences just couple months before new exp. Good to trash now. I full tempered 2 of my alts and i hoped till the end that there was some kind of mechanic to upgrade them.
    3 New tiers of essence for only 2 month of playing...cant upgrade t9 into t10. Just trash.
    And a lot of other little examples...
    I agree with Dadi on that, but that's a matter that I will discuss when I post one of my biggest design ideas for LOTRO... it's something that I was always so proud to show to my friends, but I need time to do it as it's a complex system. It's not about imbuing armour so they scale and you never have to trade, but it would definetely play well with this type of "imbued" armour thing... lol

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    I am glad you encourage it, but I disagree with it being more grindy... I agree when you say that the goal may shift, but it won't be more grindy, because what you have had is many people doing over 150 SS runs, for example, to get the rarest item of that run which was the hilt (I've heard some people say it took them more than 200 runs which is insane), with this system in place, it goes from over a hundred, to 50 runs... if you're lucky, it won't matter as you could then just spend your tokens on something else other than the rarest item which you got on a chest.
    Do you do t2cms?

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    What is their alternative though? I agree with what you're saying about the deficiencies in randomness (though I would say that times that a person gets something super rare on their first roll, or first few, are lottery win type things), but the alternative is barter items and that's just so boring, it take completely away the thrill of the win. LOTRO is so dependent on barter items these days. I can't even keep track of them all, and when they unify them, it never lasts long until a new one is out, and that gets boring too.

    I think they should use the daily presents mechanism for looting. EVerything is loaded in the loot table and displayed. And then you roll. WHen you win somehting like you do the daily present, it becomes removed from the loot table and the rolling graphical depiction. At least that way you're still relying on chance, but it's not blind chance, there will be a guaranteed end where you get what you are looking for.
    If we are talking about gearing, which is an artificial treadmill, then you can make it the same for every person through a barter/token system as the most simplistic of mechanisms. If the rare gear item mean on average it is intended for 100 runs to get it, then remove the item from the loot table, get a token for each run, barter 100 tokens for the item. This means everyone has to go through the same effort for the same reward. If it is just random then you are going to reward some people for a trivial investment of time/effort and you are going to punish some people who will realistically not get it at all if it is hilt-like rarity.

    I am not a huge fan of barter systems but they are at least fair.

    A better alternative would be for the game to store properties for the number of times you successfully complete an encounter and your odds start at zero to loot an item and you get a small incremental each successive time you do it and after a certain point the increment ramps up so say a super cool rare item has a zero chance on the 1-50 attempts, small chance on 51-75, larger increments 76-100 and after that starts to ramp up until it is basically an automatic drop at say 125. It would be a clunky mechanism to add to an existing game and honestly, don't have high expectation that they would execute it... but I know they can do barter systems.

 

 
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