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  1. #1

    Deeping Wall - OK, I don't get it.

    Doing this solo as a book quest at 97. So apparently the only way you can do this is to be a Level 3 Engineer, except there doesn't seem to be any way for a solo player to become a Level 3 Engineer. Suggestions?
    Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað

  2. #2
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    If you just want to get past the chapter you can get an iron medal on the whole Deeping Wall as long as the main quest completes.

    It is possible to get to rank 3 solo with solo versions of the other available BBs - Pelargir, DoMT, HoTU, and Helm's Dike. If you get gold or plat on most of the available sidequests you should have enough points to get to rank 3.

  3. #3
    why do you think you need to have engeneer rank3? you dont need any ranks to use the catapult. as long as you destroy the enemy catapult, you should be able to win the battle. on low ranks, full platinum isnt easy. but winning shouldnt be hard.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    why do you think you need to have engeneer rank3? you dont need any ranks to use the catapult. as long as you destroy the enemy catapult, you should be able to win the battle. on low ranks, full platinum isnt easy. but winning shouldnt be hard.
    The problem is that at least at my level, there is no catapult to fight back with. The only engineer weapons I have are rock drops.
    Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre, mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað

  5. #5
    The cata is up the steps on the tower on the right side. You can use it at R1.

    At R1 engineer you should easily be able to complete Wall, though platinum would be difficult.
    First thing is take the enemy cata out. Load light shell - crank to max - shift left one click and fire. Should take 2 shots at R1 to destroy it. After that spend rest of time repairing banners and click officer heals when off cooldown. Don't bother killing any mobs, just let the soldiers do their work. You will get a message half way through to say more enemy catas approaching so you need to take 2 more out using the same method. Good idea is to have the cata pre-loaded and cranked before these 2 appear.

    Quickest way to get to R3 and beyond is running the Defence of MT and Hammer. They are both surprisingly easy to complete. I regularly do them solo on low level toons to get nice bling.

    Happy hunting
    Last edited by Patmustard; Sep 07 2017 at 10:07 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by KinseyMilkbone View Post
    The problem is that at least at my level, there is no catapult to fight back with. The only engineer weapons I have are rock drops.
    The catapult is up the stairs on top of one of the wall turrets. Not on the wall itself.

    You can interact with the catapult at any level/skill and just need to bring down one of the enemy catapults.
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  7. #7
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    Actually, bringing down the enemy catapults makes a huge difference (and the quest really should give you some hint how make-or-break that is) but it's not enough to make it through the instance. Even as someone who's done these epics many times, I failed it several times on a new character before I finally got someone to help. You have to carefully balance how you spend your time so you're taking out enough enemies with rock drops, but not so many that you're not also helping keep the Rohirrim from being ground down, but not so much you're not also dropping enough ladders, but not so much that you're not also telling commanders to heal, and that's not even mentioning the banners. Each time I tried, even with the catapults destroyed, near the end we got to a point where the soldiers were worn down enough that the tide turned -- quickly -- with a soldier dying, then more, faster and faster. I think with a few more tries I would have found just the right balance, but I got someone to help before getting to that point.

    I can only imagine what someone totally new to this must be going through. The game isn't even telling them about the catapult, or the banners, or anything. That little intro to Epic Battles is unhelpful; it focuses on what you can do, but says nothing about what your objectives are, or how you should be spending your time. Probably most of them focus on all those grappling hooks that make so little difference.

  8. #8
    well... im quite sure that there either is someone yelling with sound or text that the enemy has catapults and one should destroy them...
    its not part of the quest, but the advice is there.

    but okay, there is the advice to kick ladders which is a bad advice once you are r3 and can set soldiers to twohanded. then, it just slows everything down and brings no benefit anymore, besides for some sidequests where its good to slow things down. and yes, it gets MUCH easier with higher ranks. I usually set commanders to 2h, use catapult until sidequest comes up (then half of enemies are already dead before getting up on the wall), do sidequests, come back and heal soldiers and then its already time to catapult again. before rank3 its harder. but as long as siegeweapons get used, i dont see how the whole battle can fail
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by HunterGreen View Post

    I can only imagine what someone totally new to this must be going through. The game isn't even telling them about the catapult, or the banners, or anything. That little intro to Epic Battles is unhelpful; it focuses on what you can do, but says nothing about what your objectives are, or how you should be spending your time. Probably most of them focus on all those grappling hooks that make so little difference.
    The Big Battle mechanic was, and still is, one of the most confusing mechanics to get into and understand at first.

    I remember Sapience responding to complaints on the forums at the time they were released saying something to the effect of: "We kind of intended them to be chaotic and confusing. Just like a real battle situation would."

    Once you've done them 2,3,4 times and figure out the flow of them, they aren't so bad. But the first couple of times you run one is a dumpster fire of "### am I doing?"
    Borgorid of Arkenstone
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  10. #10
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    You think that one is bad, wait till the Crystal Cave, instructions telling you to go places when you dont know the way and there are no maps - plus go the wrong way and you die very quickly. Talk about PITA!!

    Add to that completely different icon depicting who, what and where, and you are totally lost.

    As for the Deeping Wall, slowing down the attackers by cutting grapple ropes and pushing off ladders does help; it means that any mob that makes it is met by a dozen soldiers instead of one or two; they go down real quick and dont have a chance to do anything; plus it gives you the time to rotate the "heal" command to each section.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarbro View Post
    You think that one is bad, wait till the Crystal Cave, instructions telling you to go places when you dont know the way and there are no maps - plus go the wrong way and you die very quickly. Talk about PITA!!

    Add to that completely different icon depicting who, what and where, and you are totally lost.

    As for the Deeping Wall, slowing down the attackers by cutting grapple ropes and pushing off ladders does help; it means that any mob that makes it is met by a dozen soldiers instead of one or two; they go down real quick and dont have a chance to do anything; plus it gives you the time to rotate the "heal" command to each section.
    First, just like skirmishes, you can run the Big Battles from a fairly low level, provided you have bought the Helm's Deep expansion, you don't have to wait until you get to Helm's Deep to start the Big Battles. Lotro-Wiki says you can start them at level 10 IF you have bought Helm's Deep. Of course, you need to know that detail first. If you start them before you get to Helm's Deep, you have time to build up your points to skill up.

    The Glittering Cave fight is the most frustrating of all the Helm's Deep battles, a lot of ground to cover, no useful map of inside the cave, expect to fail this fight several times while you learn the layout of the cave.

    Deeping wall. Apart from using the catapult on the wall tower to take out the orc catapults, there are a set of banner poles near the back edge of the wall you are defending. If you lose those banners, the NPC soldiers do not fight as well, so protect and repair the banners. If you can lay tripwire traps in front of the banners, it really helps. Orcs that try to damage the banners will be stunned by the tripwires allowing the NPC soldiers to take them out more easily. You won't be able to protect all the banners with traps, so pick two or three banners and keep tripwires in front of them as much as possible. Repair some of the other banners that you cannot protect with tripwires when you can spare the time.

    Knock down ladders and grappling hooks along the front of the wall. Ladders are faster to knock down, hooks take a bit longer. Doing that will reduce the number of mobs coming over the wall, which makes the battle easier for the NPC soldiers. You will have problems covering the whole wall if you are doing this battle solo, so prioritise the ladders/hooks closest to the banners you are protecting.
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  12. #12
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    Not sure how, but despite dying THREE times trying to get from one area to the next (and getting lost); I managed to "win" the battle.

    Biggest gripe, there is a ballista that doesnt do anything, you can select it, but there are no options to load, aim, fire or repair. Wasted time trying to figure THAT out.

  13. #13
    I managed to win the battle at my third try, as a level 95 hunter, rank 0, with the following strategy:

    1) Destroy the enemy catapults.
    2) Spend the remaining time of each wave by healing a commander, then using rock drops until the healing cooldown is over; heal the next commander and so on.

    To make this more efficient I spent all my 8 points in the Officer promotion tree to decrease the healing cooldown.

    Hope it helps!
    Last edited by tangenziale; May 22 2018 at 12:05 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangenziale View Post
    I managed to win the battle at my third try, as a level 95 hunter, rank 0, with the following strategy:

    1) Destroy the enemy catapults.
    2) Spend the remaining time of each wave by healing a commander, then using rock drops until the healing cooldown is over; heal the next commander and so on.

    To make this more efficient I spent all my 8 points in the Officer promotion tree to decrease the healing cooldown.

    Hope it helps!
    ^ I think this is good advice. I think where most people fail this Epic Battle is they don't take out the catapults, then the catapults kill someone that makes them fail. If I recall correctly, I first passed this Epic Battle by just doing rock drops the entire time and ignoring all side quests before I understood what I was actually supposed to do. I quote the person above, because I'm basically going to give the exact same advice, and they deserve credit for saying it first. Destroying the catapults should be 1st priority because they're most likely to take out one of the NPCs that aren't supposed to die. Pay attention to how many cranks it takes to get the catapult in position. Before the battle starts go ahead and crank the cata 3 times because that's the minimum it takes to launch anyway, so you know it will at least be that many. Go ahead and load it too. Once you take out the first set of catapults, go ahead and crank that puppy back up to the same position because I believe there's a second wave. Repair it too if needed.

    The hard part for a lot of people (in all epic battles) is ignoring the waves attacking the wall. I know you want to kill them as they attack, but you've got to let the NPCs do the majority of that.

    As said above, the second priority is healing the troops. Whenever your cooldowns are up, go ahead and heal the troops... you'll want to keep them alive. Go ahead and hit all the buffs you can on the captain. Keep in mind that you can switch roles during the epic battle as long as you aren't in combat and the cooldown is over (this is where I complain that I still don't like the addition of the cooldown).

    Your next priority (as stated above... they really nailed it IMHO) is rock drops. This epic battle has a lot of enemy troops, and they can wear down your troops. So lighten their load by dropping rocks (you may need to move to another rock drop once all the mobs in front of one are dead). Keep in mind that you can also use AOE AND place traps while using the rock drops. This will also speed up the instance. IF your goal is to simply get through the instance, then you can ignore the sidequests and the banners. Failing the sidequests, and letting the banners get destroyed won't cause you to fail the instance. So (as laid out above), you really only need to worry about keeping the NPCs alive that will cause you to fail if they die. Destroying the catapults will help the most. Then keeping your troops alive. Then thinning the enemy troops. So, I'm basically just giving more of an explanation of how Tangenziale'sadvice is so good for getting through this epic battle.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    as long as you destroy the enemy catapult, you should be able to win the battle. on low ranks, full platinum isnt easy. but winning shouldnt be hard.
    Winning solo isn't hard, it's impossible. I've come back after a long absence. Created a new hunter and adventured all the way to level 106. I'm now trying to get through the epic battles JUST TO ADVANCE the EPIC story. I'm stuck. Totally stuck. I've bought 20 points in the store to help with the catapult and also banner and after six tries I get nearly to the end of Deeping Wall, and as someone else mentioned, one soldier dies which sets of a cascade of soldiers dying and the instance is lost. This after destroying both catapults as quickly as possible and ignoring the side quests. Just .. can't .. do it.

    Hard to believe SSG has stuck the epic story behind something that's so frustrating and impossible. Given this level of difficulty I simply cannot recommend this game to friends, they'd throw their computer through the window if they experienced what I have. *sigh*

    SSG, please give us some way to advance the story that doesn't involve impossible solo instances. That's all some of us want to do!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by BentoIce View Post
    Winning solo isn't hard, it's impossible. I've come back after a long absence. Created a new hunter and adventured all the way to level 106. I'm now trying to get through the epic battles JUST TO ADVANCE the EPIC story. I'm stuck. Totally stuck. I've bought 20 points in the store to help with the catapult and also banner and after six tries I get nearly to the end of Deeping Wall, and as someone else mentioned, one soldier dies which sets of a cascade of soldiers dying and the instance is lost. This after destroying both catapults as quickly as possible and ignoring the side quests. Just .. can't .. do it.

    Hard to believe SSG has stuck the epic story behind something that's so frustrating and impossible. Given this level of difficulty I simply cannot recommend this game to friends, they'd throw their computer through the window if they experienced what I have. *sigh*

    SSG, please give us some way to advance the story that doesn't involve impossible solo instances. That's all some of us want to do!
    I love the EBs and have done them on many characters. I feel like they are harder to get started on than they used to be in the past. I'm fortunate that I always have someone to help me get started to get points, but we've talked about how much harder it must be nowadays for a person without any points to solo. I'd try asking in LFF for a hand. Someone else may need them as well, or be willing to go thru them with you. I help when I see someone asking if I have time.

    I wish the devs would make a change to give everyone starter points to get going. If it were me, I'd grant forty or fifty points in the quest before you get to the battles or for doing the tutorial.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by BentoIce View Post
    Winning solo isn't hard, it's impossible. I've come back after a long absence. Created a new hunter and adventured all the way to level 106. I'm now trying to get through the epic battles JUST TO ADVANCE the EPIC story. I'm stuck. Totally stuck. I've bought 20 points in the store to help with the catapult and also banner and after six tries I get nearly to the end of Deeping Wall, and as someone else mentioned, one soldier dies which sets of a cascade of soldiers dying and the instance is lost. This after destroying both catapults as quickly as possible and ignoring the side quests. Just .. can't .. do it.

    Hard to believe SSG has stuck the epic story behind something that's so frustrating and impossible. Given this level of difficulty I simply cannot recommend this game to friends, they'd throw their computer through the window if they experienced what I have. *sigh*

    SSG, please give us some way to advance the story that doesn't involve impossible solo instances. That's all some of us want to do!
    No, it's not impossible. It's like learning to ride a bike--seems impossible, but once you "get" it, it's easy!

    Int's method is the best for getting through the instance, imho, with one change. Yes, taking out catapults are first and foremost, but then I stay on the catapult and use it to take out the mobs on the field. You can see the orcs moving in rows and can usually get a few hits before they move too close to the keep. You will see the kill numbers float up. Then I go down and do the rock drops/lay traps. Really satisfying to see those floaty death numbers! I do NOT do ladders/hooks, as folks have said this can cause the mobs to jam up on the bottom and make the fight last too long. (This always works for me, but do what works best for you) I know some folks hate big battles, but I think they are an awesome "epic" way to show the fights that were going on at the time.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by BentoIce View Post
    Winning solo isn't hard, it's impossible. I've come back after a long absence. Created a new hunter and adventured all the way to level 106. I'm now trying to get through the epic battles JUST TO ADVANCE the EPIC story. I'm stuck. Totally stuck. I've bought 20 points in the store to help with the catapult and also banner and after six tries I get nearly to the end of Deeping Wall, and as someone else mentioned, one soldier dies which sets of a cascade of soldiers dying and the instance is lost. This after destroying both catapults as quickly as possible and ignoring the side quests. Just .. can't .. do it.

    Hard to believe SSG has stuck the epic story behind something that's so frustrating and impossible. Given this level of difficulty I simply cannot recommend this game to friends, they'd throw their computer through the window if they experienced what I have. *sigh*

    b
    I would be so thankful for this. I love the ending of the book but can't imagine to play through these battles again.

    They have become harder to play solo even without doing side quests. Last time I did them I got really frustrated and even with a friend it was impossible. You basically need to know the fights (play them multiple times) to even get an idea what to do and I had still to find somebody with knowledge because I'm so bad with the catapults. I understand that some players like playing through them but for me the epic story would have been better played out if we just join the relief force.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Starliteyes View Post
    No, it's not impossible. It's like learning to ride a bike--seems impossible, but once you "get" it, it's easy!

    Int's method is the best for getting through the instance, imho, with one change. Yes, taking out catapults are first and foremost, but then I stay on the catapult and use it to take out the mobs on the field. You can see the orcs moving in rows and can usually get a few hits before they move too close to the keep. You will see the kill numbers float up. Then I go down and do the rock drops/lay traps. Really satisfying to see those floaty death numbers! I do NOT do ladders/hooks, as folks have said this can cause the mobs to jam up on the bottom and make the fight last too long. (This always works for me, but do what works best for you) I know some folks hate big battles, but I think they are an awesome "epic" way to show the fights that were going on at the time.

    And that is the problem. I just want to play through the epic story, not learn how to get through these battles wasting weeks of my time.

  20. #20
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    Battles are a catch-22. Need points to get high ratings, need to earn high ratings to get points. Once you do get lots of points, battles actually become a lot of fun. At 246 points on my main I can attest to it.

    Later battles (Pelargir/MT) got side quests more dependent on raw DPS, and thus are easier to get high scores for some classes with no points. I got full plat on Pelargir and MT defence before I ever beat Deeping Wall.

    It is generally easier to run group/raid versions of battles as more people present make things less hectic. 6-man Pel is a pretty popular PUG, so are 3-man MT and 6-man hammer.

    Any up and coming player stuck on these battles: yell out on LFF that you need help, chances are a battle vet will answer. This is generally how you get your first points. Developing a good point count solo is next to impossible.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by scorrp10 View Post
    Battles are a catch-22. Need points to get high ratings, need to earn high ratings to get points. Once you do get lots of points, battles actually become a lot of fun. At 246 points on my main I can attest to it.

    Later battles (Pelargir/MT) got side quests more dependent on raw DPS, and thus are easier to get high scores for some classes with no points. I got full plat on Pelargir and MT defence before I ever beat Deeping Wall.
    I'm glad you and others were able to eventually get skilled enough to enjoy battles. But what you did assumes that one intends to keep doing battles. It's a type of play I - and others - simply don't enjoy. Like PVMP, it exists but I don't care for it and don't want to be forced to play in ways that I don't enjoy. Playing through once to get the feel of each battle and to progress the epic story I don't mind - those *were* big battles in the book! - but doing so assumes I can actually *complete* each one.

    There simply needs to be SOME vehicle to make the thing passable at low skill / low points. You don't sell a game by making things frustrating and impossible as gates to other things. That just sends people running, never to come back. For instances that gate epics we have inspiration, plus the possibility of out-leveling the mobs so we can pass them. For skirmishes we can dial down the level so we can pass them if we're having trouble.

    But battles? No, we have nothing, no way to down-level the content to make it passable. Not all of us are great players. And if our gear is inferior in any way, that inferiority is exacerbated in battles. Bad enough there is no help whatsoever in understanding what you actually need to do to pass them. But after understanding what you need to do, when external research on EACH battle isn't enough, and after DAYS of trying to complete them only to fail again and again - right at what should be the end! .. when that's the case then we have a problem. And the other battles are gated behind Deeping Wall, we can't even skip around it!

    I'm a mediocre player at best, but I've been dumping money into the game for eight years, even when I wasn't playing. I enjoy the game and want to play, even if sporadically. I want my friends to play, even if we just chat and never play together. But they won't tolerate not being able to play solo and fail getting through the epic story. The epic story is the basis of the game for many of us, and I/we feel cheated when we can't enjoy it.

    There is a solution out there, it's up to SSG to find it (as they did with earlier epic instances and skirmishes) if they want to continue to compete across many play styles as the game progresses.
    Last edited by BentoIce; Feb 12 2019 at 05:16 PM. Reason: typo

  22. #22
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    Bug battles made a friend quit, back when. 2012?
    Mind, he did buy some expansions = all good from store pov.

    I wish they were removed.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BentoIce View Post
    There simply needs to be SOME vehicle to make the thing passable at low skill / low points. You don't sell a game by making things frustrating and impossible as gates to other things. That just sends people running, never to come back. For instances that gate epics we have inspiration, plus the possibility of out-leveling the mobs so we can pass them. For skirmishes we can dial down the level so we can pass them if we're having trouble.
    I hear you and I totally agree. IMHO the best solution would be to implement a 'quest' mode for these battles, similar in nature to Pelennor and Black Gate, where a battle is an instanced series of miniquests. Played on the same maps as BBs, and with a similar sequence of events. You go about following quest prompts at your pace, supplying archers here, cheering soldiers there, fighting a set of mobs, firing a catapult or two. Same exact sidequests as in BBs except you have no time limit and main defenses will not get overrun in the meantime. HD battles fixed at 95, Pel/MT at 100 and you run quest mode at your actual level.

    Actuall BBs already offer enough rewards to entice those who are willing to put in extra work. (2 trait points, nice level scaled jewelry, currency that buys starlits and essence removal scrolls). No need for them to block epic progression as well.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by scorrp10 View Post
    I hear you and I totally agree. IMHO the best solution would be to implement a 'quest' mode for these battles, similar in nature to Pelennor and Black Gate, where a battle is an instanced series of miniquests. Played on the same maps as BBs, and with a similar sequence of events. You go about following quest prompts at your pace, supplying archers here, cheering soldiers there, fighting a set of mobs, firing a catapult or two. Same exact sidequests as in BBs except you have no time limit and main defenses will not get overrun in the meantime. HD battles fixed at 95, Pel/MT at 100 and you run quest mode at your actual level.

    Actuall BBs already offer enough rewards to entice those who are willing to put in extra work. (2 trait points, nice level scaled jewelry, currency that buys starlits and essence removal scrolls). No need for them to block epic progression as well.
    This seems like a really sound plan, thanks for offering it up!

    Let's hope SSG listens and does something to make progressing through the epic more doable - and challenging fun instead of challenging hopeless. They already seem to have determined that BBs are rightfully high-level adventures, having moved the "tutorial" starter from Bree and gating it behind the Helms epic quest line.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starliteyes View Post
    No, it's not impossible. It's like learning to ride a bike--seems impossible, but once you "get" it, it's easy!

    Int's method is the best for getting through the instance, imho, with one change. Yes, taking out catapults are first and foremost, but then I stay on the catapult and use it to take out the mobs on the field. You can see the orcs moving in rows and can usually get a few hits before they move too close to the keep. You will see the kill numbers float up. Then I go down and do the rock drops/lay traps. Really satisfying to see those floaty death numbers! I do NOT do ladders/hooks, as folks have said this can cause the mobs to jam up on the bottom and make the fight last too long. (This always works for me, but do what works best for you) I know some folks hate big battles, but I think they are an awesome "epic" way to show the fights that were going on at the time.
    This is pretty much how I do it, however I DO thin out the ladders/ropes; this means there are multiple defenders for each mob, so the mobs go down quickly before inflicting much damage on any defenders.

 

 
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