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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Middle-earth's only meant to be broadly reminiscent of the real world, so looking for direct correspondences or spatial relationships is futile. Besides that the geography is bonkers, with very odd mountains (which weren't supposed to be natural, to be fair, but had been *made* that way), very strange courses for rivers and so on. Trying to superimpose real maps on Middle-earth is way too nerdy even for me, and I say that as someone who used to be very into pen-and-paper RPGs and spent a fair bit of time drawing fantasy maps.
    I'm well aware that the comparisons of Middle-earth and to our world are very dodgy at best, which is what I've said. You don't even need to use tracing paper these days, there are any number of web sites making fairly ludicrous overlay type comparisons. And yes I agree, Professor Tolkien's knowledge of geology left a bit to be desired
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  2. #27
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    Personally, I can't contain myself with excitement at the prospect of slaughtering evil Neekerbreekers in Far Harad.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    I found another hint from the Author himself. In the chapter "the steward and the king" inn the Return of the King on page 268 Ballantine book edition 1965

    The moment the ring is destroyed there is a huge tulmult that can be seen as far away as Gondor. Faramir is looking out toward Mordor and when he perceives the tulmult he says "It reminds me of Numenor", which by the way also ended up under water.
    Just another hint or clue left by a clever author for those who can perceive it.
    You're reading more into it than's really there, seeing what you want to see without any real justification. Faramir also says this:

    'No,' said Faramir, looking into her face. 'It was but a picture in the mind. I do not know what is happening.'

    The sudden towering darkness and sense of something huge having happened simply reminded him of his dreams of the Downfall of Numenor. But unlike that (or the sinking of Beleriand), this wasn't a catastrophe but rather Tolkien's 'eucatastrophe', a sudden favourable outcome. Faramir sensed that, he said that while his reason was telling him some great evil had befallen his heart felt unaccountably light. And it wasn't accompanied by any great cataclysm - Mordor just sat there, albeit riven by earthquake, ribboned with lava and strewn with ash, but doom fell only on the Enemy. Having Mordor disappear underwater would require an immense cataclysm that'd obliterate vast swathes of the rest of Middle-earth along with it, which whatever else wouldn't make for a nice outcome at all and would make the Valar look like ungrateful jerks.

    Tolkien had a thing about the image of a great wave overwhelming Numenor and so it's no surprise to see him employ that imagery there but imagery is all it is, as the outcome was fundamentally different. The world was changed without the widespread destruction that had accompanied that in the past, because in the end Sauron wasn't vanquished by brute force but by his own hubris.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    I found another hint from the Author himself. In the chapter "the steward and the king" inn the Return of the King on page 268 Ballantine book edition 1965

    The moment the ring is destroyed there is a huge tulmult that can be seen as far away as Gondor. Faramir is looking out toward Mordor and when he perceives the tulmult he says "It reminds me of Numenor", which by the way also ended up under water.
    Just another hint or clue left by a clever author for those who can perceive it.
    That's reaching. I saw it as Faramir being reminded of the mass destruction. There is absolutely nothing saying that Mordor was under water after the ring was destroyed. I'm pretty sure something that major would have been stated in the actual novel.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Morgoth's stronghold of Angband in Beleriand ...Under Water
    Corrupted Numenor after the rebellion against the Valar ...Under Water
    Sauruman's twisted abode in Isengard, flooded by water
    Yes, and all of it described in intricate detail, gigantic tsunamis, people being swept away, trees, buildings, whole mountains disappearing under the sea, Elendil barely escaping the Downfall of Númenor, Saruman's machinery being devoured by water.

    Yet in the fall of Mordor, not a single drop of H2O is even mentioned.


    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    "They had come to the desolation that lay before Mordor: the lasting monument to the dark labour of its slaves that should endure when all their purposes were made void; a land defiled, diseased beyond all healing -- unless the Great Sea should enter in and wash it with oblivion."
    The Great Sea now, how do you suppose it found it's way over all those thousands of miles without anyone noticing?
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  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    But please by all means enjoy the expansion. I for my part can't really since it is anethema to my understanding of the Author's intent.
    If you don't agree then please go on enjoying the game as it is.

    Aren't you the same guy who kept on insisting that when a company buys the copyright to a story, that they then own that story and have a moral right to change the story as much as they want. Seems to me that your own interpretation of 'lore' the devs can make Mordor as lively as they like, it's the 'new' story

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    That's reaching. I saw it as Faramir being reminded of the mass destruction. There is absolutely nothing saying that Mordor was under water after the ring was destroyed. I'm pretty sure something that major would have been stated in the actual novel.
    You don't get this literary device. If you just look at this by itself (Faramir comparing the destruction to Numenor) then yes it would be reaching.

    When you realize every evil land is either underwater or destroyed by water in some form (as I have posted before)
    It just adds to the use of this repeated theme. Evil is cleansed by water. Its a theme borrowed from the biblical flood, which Tolkien was well aware and subscribed to on a personal level.

    Literary analysis is a skill taught in colleges all over the country, but its taught. People aren't born doing it and it requires training.
    So I understand why people can't see it.
    Last edited by TiberiasKirk; Apr 16 2018 at 06:56 AM.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    Perhaps he's thinking of the passage in the book where Frodo and Sam arrive within sight of Mordor:



    And if you look at CJRT's map, you see that where Mordor is in Middle-earth corresponds to where the Mediterranean Sea is in Europe.

    But the Sea doesn't wash in right after the fall of the Ring; it takes a while.
    Then again, the line could be simply passed off as a subtle nod to Shakespeare's Macbeth:

    "Will all the water in the ocean wash this blood from my hands? No, instead my hands will stain the seas scarlet, turning the green waters red."
    Macbeth - Act 2, Scene 2.

    It stems from the imagery used by Tolkien that there is a metaphysical balance of nature, where war and industrialisation is something akin to an open wound upon the natural world. Symbolism for water as cleansing and purifying (holy water), that it would take in insatiable amount to reverse the evil deeds done within the confines of Mordor. There's no literal saying that Mordor will at some point be engulfed by water... even more impossible due to the volcanic nature of Mordor (known to generate islands).
    Last edited by Hallandil; Apr 16 2018 at 06:58 AM.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hallandil View Post
    Then again, the line could be simply passed off as a subtle nod to Shakespeare's Macbeth:

    "Will all the water in the ocean wash this blood from my hands? No, instead my hands will stain the seas scarlet, turning the green waters red."
    Macbeth - Act 2, Scene 2.

    It stems from the imagery used by Tolkien that there is a metaphysical balance of nature, where war and industrialisation is something akin to an open wound upon the natural world. Symbolism for water as cleansing and purifying (holy water), that it would take in insatiable amount to reverse the evil deeds done within the confines of Mordor. There's no literal saying that Mordor will at some point be engulfed by water... even more impossible due to the volcanic nature of Mordor (known to generate islands).
    Geologically all an area has to do is sink to become prime for being covered by water. Volcanos go extinct as well. Arguing against the effect of time on anything is a loosing position. Still the "evidence" Mordor will one day be covered by water is based on the repetitive nature by which Tolkien uses the water cleansing theme. The Mordor we got in the game resembles nothing of what it is suggested it should be by Tolkien. Its way too populated for one and forces are way too organized. There is zero motivation for anyone exploring and adventuring in it. Happy to say I never bought it but can do the Northlands and PvP just fine without any mordor gear.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    You don't get this literary device. If you just look at this by itself (Faramir comparing the destruction to Numenor) then yes it would be reaching.

    When you realize every evil land is either underwater or destroyed by water in some form (as I have posted before)
    It just adds to the use of this repeated theme. Evil is cleansed by water. Its a theme borrowed from the biblical flood, which Tolkien was well aware and subscribed to on a personal level.

    Literary analysis is a skill taught in colleges all over the country, but its taught. People aren't born doing it and it requires training.
    So I understand why people can't see it.
    LOTR isn't meant to bash someone over the head with Biblical teachings, it borrows symbolism - as it does from many other writings.

    Numenor is close to Atlantis than most other writings (description by Plato being almost identical).

    It is reaching to say that all evils in the world will be purged by water, as you've forgotten Angmar, Mirkwood, The East, Iron Mountains (partially but not entirely) and the depths of Moria. All evil places that never get the same "great flood" treatment.
    Lord of the Rings wasn't written to be some elaborate literary piece that readers are meant to inspect with a magnifying glass to view deeper meanings or great teachings from (beyond the fundamental discourses of Good/Evil/Love/Duty/War that you find in most heroic epics).

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hallandil View Post
    LOTR isn't meant to bash someone over the head with Biblical teachings, it borrows symbolism - as it does from many other writings.

    Numenor is close to Atlantis than most other writings (description by Plato being almost identical).

    It is reaching to say that all evils in the world will be purged by water, as you've forgotten Angmar, Mirkwood, The East, Iron Mountains (partially but not entirely) and the depths of Moria. All evil places that never get the same "great flood" treatment.
    Lord of the Rings wasn't written to be some elaborate literary piece that readers are meant to inspect with a magnifying glass to view deeper meanings or great teachings from (beyond the fundamental discourses of Good/Evil/Love/Duty/War that you find in most heroic epics).
    Sufficeth to say that you cannot prove it won't be covered in water. It really doesn't matter. I have my belief based on the use of a literary device and you are certainly entitled to believe what you will with zero evidence to support your position.
    Tolkien said that his work is a Catholic work, consciously in its revision. Unconsciously at first. Saying there are no themes or values imparted by it contradicts the very author himself and his own observations.

  12. #37
    interpreting bull#### into texts is taught at school, too.
    That doesnt make it a good thing to do.
    Sometimes, whats written is just meant as its written and not intended to be interpreted.
    Which is a thing, people that think they are the best interpreters (mainly language teachers at school) just dont see.

    The only way to get to know IF something other than obviously written was intended by tolkien would be asking him or finding proof of him writing something like that. Until you do so, interpret what you want, but that wont make anything you think right, especially if it contradicts many things written elsewhere.

    Sure, Mordor may one day be flooded by water.
    But we see (a fake) Mordor within Months after Saurons downfall. Not centuries later. Therefore, no water. The books explicitly write that people go inside to clear some evil structures. They couldnt do so if it was flooded.
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  13. #38
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    In my eyes, Mordor is finished in very similar way to Numenor because there was no flood in Numenor. Numenor sank below water level. Sinking caused the flood, thus the flood wasn't the cause.

    In mordor, there was great earthquake and to bring an island under the ocean (IMO) one needs to cause an earthquake or earthqauke is one of guiding signs of sinking the island. Therefore I think it could be similar destruction for Faramir. (And thus there is no need for flood in Mordor)
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    “Mordor got flooded as well as most other strongholds of evil“ (paraphrased)
    #1 where would the water even come from, so suddenly, when the Sundering Sea is miles away and behind the Mountains of Shadow, so if a flood were to rise above them it would mean at least destruction and flooding of Harondor as well. You might say the Sea of Nurn suddenly expanded but why would Aragorn then even give the Land around it to the freed slaves if it simply got flooded. For the destruction of Isengard and Númenor there was a direct source of water nearby, and the flooding of Angband basically took a whole continent with it because water from the Great Sea had to cross it (Beleriand).

    #2 Isengard isn’t even under water anymore but was turned into an orchard by the Ents, with a lake around Orthanc in the middle iirc.

    #3 no one is denying that *at some point in the distant future* there may be water where Mordor is now, but that‘s so far off that it would never ever affect the in-game events.

    #4 stop trolling, it‘s really obvious that you enjoy keeping this idiotic discussion going. Everyone knows Mordor wasn‘t flooded, the people of Nurn continued to live there at least for some time.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    You don't get this literary device. If you just look at this by itself (Faramir comparing the destruction to Numenor) then yes it would be reaching.

    When you realize every evil land is either underwater or destroyed by water in some form (as I have posted before)
    It just adds to the use of this repeated theme. Evil is cleansed by water. Its a theme borrowed from the biblical flood, which Tolkien was well aware and subscribed to on a personal level.

    Literary analysis is a skill taught in colleges all over the country, but its taught. People aren't born doing it and it requires training.
    So I understand why people can't see it.
    Ok, so you are just going to ignore the fact that not one word is mentioned about Mordor being flooded. And the Great Sea never flooded Mordor. The “unless” part made that pretty clear.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    I didn't say when it would be. I just believe that since the writer doesn't tell us about the eventual fate of Mordor, we can use what he has written about other lands controlled by evil and their fate as a guide.
    Oh, and why should we not look to Angmar or Dol Guldur as a model? Or even Utumno, back in the Elder Days, which was shattered but not flooded? You're being selective, you've gone with the examples that fit your idea and ignored others. Besides that, there are other ways to regard how the towering darkness over Mordor reminded Faramir of Numenor, the simplest being that it was simply a shout out to an image that had haunted Tolkien for years. Just because something's poetical doesn't mean it's some literary device, and it looks to me like you're simply trying too hard and that's why others aren't finding it persuasive.

    My point to the devs is why invest time and energy in a place that really doesn't warrant it either from a literary perspective or one from practicality.
    If you're claiming you never meant to imply Mordor would be flooded in the near term then your whole idea of it being flooded has no arguable relevance to the game. It'd be outside the context of the game altogether, it simply wouldn't matter if in another Age or two Mordor would end up beneath the sea. The key literary argument against the game's version of Mordor is far more straightforward and immediate, that Tolkien swiftly wrote the place off (along with the overwhelming majority of Sauron's creatures) because he had no further use for any of that, but that would ill suit the needs of a game like this. As for practicality - the devs needed to let players adventure in a less-ruined Mordor to satisfy general player expectations, so it's all about practicality rather than what's 'right'. Just as with other necessary evils like playable Elves and hobbits, magic classes and so on.

    There is zero evidence in Tolkien's writings that Mordor will not one day be covered with water, but there is plenty of examples of other evil places that are.
    And others that aren't, making this specious.

    Its hard to believe people will so vehemetly defend a position with zero evidence to support it.

    Its something they teach you in school not to do.
    Oh the irony... not only about this but that High Elf business last week as well, you are the *last* person who should be saying something like that. (Especially as you invariably ignore evidence other people provide, even direct referenced quotes, while providing none of your own).

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Mordor may be flooded one day. It just isnt directly after the destruction of the ring. And that is stated clearly in the books. Now, we are directly after Ring destruction. What happens in some years or decades doesnt matter for the game.
    As a role player why would I want to go there considering the fate of most lands corrupted by evil?

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    As a role player why would I want to go there considering the fate of most lands corrupted by evil?
    To see how it looks before its fate hits it one day in the future.
    To breathe the fear and danger the evil from the past still shows. Which it does quite good.
    To fulfill whats written in the LotR book, as one of the people venturing inside to clear leftovers.

    If I knew an awesome atmospheric place that will be flooded ten years in the future, that would be a further incentive for me to have a look at it now. not a disincentive.
    Just like i go skiing and have fun with wintersports in the alps, knowing that it might not be possible anymore in 20 years due to climatic change.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    To see how it looks before its fate hits it one day in the future.
    To breathe the fear and danger the evil from the past still shows. Which it does quite good.
    To fulfill whats written in the LotR book, as one of the people venturing inside to clear leftovers.
    Then why doesn't Aragorn do any of thar? Or Faramir, Or any main character?
    Because the destruction they witnessed kept them from safely entering the interior.. maybe
    Or maybe nothing made by the enemy is worth having
    Last edited by TiberiasKirk; Apr 16 2018 at 01:53 PM.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    As a role player why would I want to go there considering the fate of most lands corrupted by evil?
    That would be metagaming, your character wouldn't know that and as Oelle points out, the book specifically mentions the need to destroy leftover fortresses there and that the slaves were freed.

    None of the main characters were involved because as I pointed out, Tolkien was done with the place and essentially wrote off the aftermath in the space of one paragraph. Also, mopping up is what grunts are for - other than the fanatics among the Easterlings and Haradrim who fought on, there was no organised resistance as all of Sauron's Orcs and other creatures were either dead or left as basket cases.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    As a role player why would I want to go there considering the fate of most lands corrupted by evil?
    Oelle mentioned a lot of good ones, but she left out a very good one too- to pull the poor schmucks who get in trouble while there out of the fire. An early quest in Udun is to go looking for a wayward Captain who stupidly went off alone, for instance.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Then why doesn't Aragorn do any of thar? Or Faramir, Or any main character?
    Tolkiens Mordor is a dead wasteland after the destruction of the Ring. Not one full of orcs and such. Aragorn and the other main Characters have better things to do than care about a wasteland, if they can send some adventurers there to keep an eye on it and tell them if something is worth their attention. Aragorn and Faramir have administrative Jobs to fulfill and no time for adventuring for the first months.

    Mordor totally isnt what Tolkien wrote. But SSG just decided that Tolkiens Mordor would be boring and delivers something interesting and dangerous, which many players wanted.
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  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by TiberiasKirk View Post
    Then why doesn't Aragorn do any of thar? Or Faramir, Or any main character?
    Because the destruction they witnessed kept them from safely entering the interior.. maybe
    Or maybe nothing made by the enemy is worth having
    The books say that Aragorn freed the slaves in Nurn and gave them that land as their own. Now as to whether he personally went there or sent emissaries we don't know, but they would, more than likely, have gone via the gate as it's an enormous journey around the mountains. I think many people could have travelled through Mordor after the destruction of the Ring. It would no doubt have still been dangerous, both from the broken landscape, lava etc., but also from the former residents which hadn't cleared out yet.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langie View Post
    The books say that Aragorn freed the slaves in Nurn and gave them that land as their own. Now as to whether he personally went there or sent emissaries we don't know, but they would, more than likely, have gone via the gate as it's an enormous journey around the mountains. I think many people could have travelled through Mordor after the destruction of the Ring. It would no doubt have still been dangerous, both from the broken landscape, lava etc., but also from the former residents which hadn't cleared out yet.
    Mordor was a big place, people could just steer well clear of Mount Doom and still be able to get around...

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Tolkiens Mordor is a dead wasteland after the destruction of the Ring. Not one full of orcs and such. Aragorn and the other main Characters have better things to do than care about a wasteland, if they can send some adventurers there to keep an eye on it and tell them if something is worth their attention. Aragorn and Faramir have administrative Jobs to fulfill and no time for adventuring for the first months.

    Mordor totally isnt what Tolkien wrote. But SSG just decided that Tolkiens Mordor would be boring and delivers something interesting and dangerous, which many players wanted.
    Overall, I couldn't agree more. There are plenty of players who don't care about what Tolkien wrote and I bet they enjoy the Mordor they got.

 

 
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