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Thread: PvMP Revamp

  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    We saw this in 2013 when the raiding community was killed off, the pvp community nearly died too. For LOTRO PVMP these groups are symbiotic, even if they don't want to be. Every time they get separated, be it from audacity gear, or level scaling, or Turbine not releasing new (or good) raids, both communities suffer.
    Currently as a freep you really can't be competitive without raid gear. A freep will always need to PVE, to gain levels and gear. In the past, because of audacity gear, raiding was not a requirement for Pvmp. The time commitment to get raid gear, we can all agree is severe. This is something I just can't do. I'd like to play freepside, but that raiding "requirement" prevents that. There are issues with the audacity system, but at least it lets players get into the Moors without that massive grind. I all for getting more players into Pvmp. Any kind of balance is hopeless with the current freep gear range.
    Landy Redrighthand WL 13, Pawpatrol Stalker 7, Horrorbuisness BA 7
    Landy Tridis LM 6, Barnabras Warden 4

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilawolf View Post
    Currently as a freep you really can't be competitive without raid gear. A freep will always need to PVE, to gain levels and gear. In the past, because of audacity gear, raiding was not a requirement for Pvmp. The time commitment to get raid gear, we can all agree is severe. This is something I just can't do. I'd like to play freepside, but that raiding "requirement" prevents that. There are issues with the audacity system, but at least it lets players get into the Moors without that massive grind. I all for getting more players into Pvmp. Any kind of balance is hopeless with the current freep gear range.
    The inherent problem with audacity gear is the requirement to not be effective while trying to effectively acquire it. It larger servers the issue is mitigated, on smaller it's worse. How do you gain points to gain gear if you're dead all the time? Its the same problem creeps who don't use the store for their skills (are there any left) have? You have to suck first, then rank, but how do you rank if you suck?
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilawolf View Post
    Currently as a freep you really can't be competitive without raid gear. A freep will always need to PVE, to gain levels and gear. In the past, because of audacity gear, raiding was not a requirement for Pvmp. The time commitment to get raid gear, we can all agree is severe. This is something I just can't do. I'd like to play freepside, but that raiding "requirement" prevents that. There are issues with the audacity system, but at least it lets players get into the Moors without that massive grind. I all for getting more players into Pvmp. Any kind of balance is hopeless with the current freep gear range.
    When Audacity first came out that was RoI (lvl 75) cap. 1st Agers required Raiding (or buying them on AH, pretty much nobody except members of raid kins had them), the Dragoich cloak (raiding) with clasp upgrade (ToO), etc, etc. Whereas by 105, the gap between the fully geared T2C raider and a fully geared PvE casual (just flower/Wastes armor/jewels with Ithy Essences) had closed to nothing but set bonuses on the raid armor, slightly betters bracelet from Throne, and small upgrade possible with Inlay drop from Throne. Nobody used PvP armor (instead non T2C raiders used something 4 FI and 2 flower). I've seen raiders who thought they were skilled back in the day, be exposed as average or below at PvP in eras when the "casual" PvPers have almost the same stats. Perhaps by raiding you just mean casual PvE grouping such as FI and Skoi/ToT crafting fellows, which while it was a "time commitment" isn't "raiding."
    Arkenstone (formerly Landroval):
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  4. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,943
    Quote Originally Posted by Beastnas View Post
    You are not the first and not the last to suggest major overhauls that are almost guaranteed to never happen.

    Here is the extent of specific changes you will see:

    1) Broad scaling pass for new level caps
    2) Minor update to lessen issues from the last scaling pass
    3) New tree placed in a random spot in the Moors

    (Optional) relevant Freep PvP-specific gear for the current level cap.
    This. Blue-skying completely new PvP concepts is fine, but you're kidding yourself if you expect more than 115 audacity gear and a handful of skills randomly buffed/nerfed.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Maryam View Post
    When Audacity first came out that was RoI (lvl 75) cap. 1st Agers required Raiding (or buying them on AH, pretty much nobody except members of raid kins had them), the Dragoich cloak (raiding) with clasp upgrade (ToO), etc, etc. Whereas by 105, the gap between the fully geared T2C raider and a fully geared PvE casual (just flower/Wastes armor/jewels with Ithy Essences) had closed to nothing but set bonuses on the raid armor, slightly betters bracelet from Throne, and small upgrade possible with Inlay drop from Throne. Nobody used PvP armor (instead non T2C raiders used something 4 FI and 2 flower). I've seen raiders who thought they were skilled back in the day, be exposed as average or below at PvP in eras when the "casual" PvPers have almost the same stats. Perhaps by raiding you just mean casual PvE grouping such as FI and Skoi/ToT crafting fellows, which while it was a "time commitment" isn't "raiding."
    I understand your point, perhaps I should have framed it competitive vs. OP. It's been my experience, that fighting a group of freeps with flower level gear given equal numbers was a competitive fight. When you ran into a raiding group, you needed 2-3 times the numbers.
    Landy Redrighthand WL 13, Pawpatrol Stalker 7, Horrorbuisness BA 7
    Landy Tridis LM 6, Barnabras Warden 4

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    The inherent problem with audacity gear is the requirement to not be effective while trying to effectively acquire it. It larger servers the issue is mitigated, on smaller it's worse. How do you gain points to gain gear if you're dead all the time? Its the same problem creeps who don't use the store for their skills (are there any left) have? You have to suck first, then rank, but how do you rank if you suck?
    Totally agree, you have to be a burden to your group while you accumulate coms. I would use coms from my creep to buy audacity gear. I'm not saying audacity gear is the answer, but lets face it, that's the only update they'll make. They need to drop the price to 500-1000 per piece.
    Landy Redrighthand WL 13, Pawpatrol Stalker 7, Horrorbuisness BA 7
    Landy Tridis LM 6, Barnabras Warden 4

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilawolf View Post
    Totally agree, you have to be a burden to your group while you accumulate coms. I would use coms from my creep to buy audacity gear. I'm not saying audacity gear is the answer, but lets face it, that's the only update they'll make. They need to drop the price to 500-1000 per piece.
    I'd rather they not make it. WHy not just boost creep stats higher? THey already boosted them to 115. Rather than try and now balance freeps to match what they balanced creeps to balance freeps, just keep balancing creeps.

    The whole system is stupid and complicated.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post

    The whole system is stupid and complicated.
    I suspect it won't get any less stupid or complicated unless the whole system is revamped.

    But none of this will matter if PvMP is unplayable from lags and bugs because of server issues. Not when there are so many similar genre games that do it way better/slicker.

    Even if the mechanics were fixed, some semblance of pre RoR balance (even though there was QQ-ing then too) was gained and people came back to waste away post endgame hours in the moors, I'd avoid it still knowing that chances were good I'd be lagged out in a keep because 10 creeps just ran in the front door.
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  9. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    That's good. Most don't. They think that the best way to balance pvp is to make useless or nearly so the gear freeps gain in PVE. And PVP centric freeps will call for PVP centric gear so they don't have to pve. This is bad for the game. Turbine doesn't get it, of course since they don't play the game they're dev'ing, and the players don't care. But the freep PvP community feeds the PVE raiding community, and vice versa, so if you unlink those groups, both wither. We saw this in 2013 when the raiding community was killed off, the pvp community nearly died too. For LOTRO PVMP these groups are symbiotic, even if they don't want to be. Every time they get separated, be it from audacity gear, or level scaling, or Turbine not releasing new (or good) raids, both communities suffer.



    Sounds like what they attempted somewhat with Battlefield Promos/Rank. I'd stand on my same point, don't make gear less relevant. I would spend the brain power figuring out a way to make creeps scale to Freep PVE stat inflation more effectively. But there's alot of politics around that because for that to work, Creeps would have to give up some core functionality they're quite fond of.



    In pvp, the store should be for cosmetics, out of combat health regen, and emotes. Fluff only.

    Hmm.. I 100% agree with the store being for cosmetics when it comes to PvP advancement on creep side.

    As for not making gear less relevent, how about keep gear how it is, but add a level of freep pvp advancement (that goes beyond just a rank). Add the new valour options, keep freeps as they are.... and I'd say bloat up creep corruption values, to match both gear and valour contributions (I'd set valour contributions to about 30% of what creep corruptions are).

    In PvP you should feel stronger than ever, not weaker. Adding freep advancement allows for it not to be 100% about epic gear, as well as implements some wriggle room for the pieces of the community that aren't hardcore raiders. Thoughts?

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gromit1710 View Post
    I suspect it won't get any less stupid or complicated unless the whole system is revamped.

    But none of this will matter if PvMP is unplayable from lags and bugs because of server issues. Not when there are so many similar genre games that do it way better/slicker.

    Even if the mechanics were fixed, some semblance of pre RoR balance (even though there was QQ-ing then too) was gained and people came back to waste away post endgame hours in the moors, I'd avoid it still knowing that chances were good I'd be lagged out in a keep because 10 creeps just ran in the front door.


    It seems like the issue is 60% server and 40% revamp. Thanks for your input!

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by NinjaTown View Post
    Hmm.. I 100% agree with the store being for cosmetics when it comes to PvP advancement on creep side.

    As for not making gear less relevent, how about keep gear how it is, but add a level of freep pvp advancement (that goes beyond just a rank). Add the new valour options, keep freeps as they are.... and I'd say bloat up creep corruption values, to match both gear and valour contributions (I'd set valour contributions to about 30% of what creep corruptions are).

    In PvP you should feel stronger than ever, not weaker. Adding freep advancement allows for it not to be 100% about epic gear, as well as implements some wriggle room for the pieces of the community that aren't hardcore raiders. Thoughts?
    Freep advancement = grind. PVP is supposed to be the place to go without grind. All freeps need in pvmp imo is an opponent and setting without lag that affords some interesting ways to do battle. The rest will take care of itself.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  12. #37
    its the "opponent" part where all these ideas run into a brick wall called the creep hard cap.

    just about everything thats been done to pvmp makes current combat a 1-3 second joke.

    what does a r10+ creep that played pretty much because they enjoy combat, get from that kind of fight?

    basically they get motivated to try some other pvp game.
    .

    Mortem Tyrannis

 

 
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