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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Milii View Post
    Rad, The Shire were attacked by orcs, goblins or some foul race of creatures who enslaved the Hobbits. This WAS in the books, it was in the She-Elf Queen's Mirror. It is the entire reason for the need of the Scouring.
    Please don't take this the wrong way, but you really do need to read (or reread) the books. There was no orc invasion of the Shire, that WASN'T in the books!

    The Shire was taken over, legally at first, by MEN. There were a few among them who (at least in appearance) may have had orc blood in them, but the overwhelming majority of the ruffians were just men who were evil or had been driven to evil by circumstances and promises made by Saruman that life would get better if they simply took what they deserved from the fat lazy hobbits. There was no full scale invasion, the leaders of these men, aided and abetted by some unscrupulous hobbits, simply bought up some of the land, then gradually began to take what they couldn't buy by force. The bloodshed actually was started by hobbits who (understandably) objected to this takeover.

    I think what gets people's backs up about you is the arrogance of some statements that you make like the one above. You should really try to research your facts before making statements like that, by either reading the source materiel are at least googling it.
    “If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.”
    - Will Rogers

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thakalgundian View Post
    I have checked the link you have given in your reply and I'm afraid it does not say "migrated back to the Blue Mountains", but rather "migrated back to their ancient homeland", which is correct, as it refers to the Orocarni (the Red Mountains).



    The confusion here lies in the fact that many dwarves of the 4 eastern clans (from the Red Mountains) fled to the West (The Blue Mountains) due to the ongoing wars in the East in the years preceding the War of the Ring.

    " But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West." - The Fellowship of the Ring - Chapter 2. The Shadow of the Past

    The Eastern clans, which are Stiffbeards, Stonefoots, Ironfists and Blacklocks originated in the Red Mountains (far to the East). The only two clans to call the Blue Mountains their home were in fact the Firebeards and the Broadbeams (these clans migrated in S.A.40 to Khazad-dûm after the ruin of Beleriand). This you will see confirmed in the History of Middle-Earth (12.The People of Middle-Earth - "Of Dwarves and Men"):



    Hence, I believe your text should indeed be corrected to "Red Mountains" and not "Blue Mountains", as you've initially written.
    I hope that clarifies it a bit.
    I understand what you mean, but they also say "And Ered Luin was a prosperous kingdom once more" making it seem like they were talking about migrating back to the Blue Mountains. Why would it become prosperous if dwarves were leaving it? This is my own theory based on what information I could gather regarding this: that those dwarves returning to the Blue Mountains could be descended from Firebeards and Broadbeams and that they would rebuild Nogrod and Belegost during the Fourth Age. I really do need to find someone who has that book that may know the answer to that. In the mean time, I'll take this idea out of the canon list.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milii View Post
    Rad, The Shire were attacked by orcs, goblins or some foul race of creatures who enslaved the Hobbits. This WAS in the books, it was in the She-Elf Queen's Mirror. It is the entire reason for the need of the Scouring.

    .

    I think you're getting the books mixed up with the movies. Aside from the game of golf being invented many years back, the books had absolutely nothing to do with orcs invading the Shire. Even Galadriel's mirror had nothing like that. I did a bit of Googling and came up with this. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_Mirror_of_Galadriel

    Pretty much the most dramatic thing that happened with Galadriel's Mirror was Sam getting hot when he saw Ted Sandyman cutting down some trees.


    In the books, Saruman pulled a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde routine and caused a big mess in the Shire.

    *edited because I spell like a one armed blind man at a typewriter*
    Last edited by Nymphonic; Sep 17 2017 at 08:11 PM.

  4. #29
    The eastern clans aren't from the Blue Mountains, but from the Red Mountains, I think that is well established in canon tbh (see info from HoME I added in previous reply) - as is the fact that Firebeards and Broadbeams are from the Blue Mountains. So feel free to phrase as you wish really, I don't think there is much confusion on this matter when you read the canon material. Some non-canon material refers to the Firebeards and Broadbeams returning to the Blue Mountains, but you will not find that in any canon material (that includes HoME). But that would be a possibility for lotro, then again their focus has at present been only the Longbeard clan. But that isn't the main thing here. Your idea is a good one and you should focus on the main mechanics of the idea here I think. There is little need to discuss details such as this really. Tell us more of your idea my friend, looking forward to how you think this would work? Cheers

  5. #30
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    I like idea of everything It would be nice if SSG do like this, or in some way.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milii View Post
    Rad, The Shire were attacked by orcs, goblins or some foul race of creatures who enslaved the Hobbits. This WAS in the books, it was in the She-Elf Queen's Mirror. It is the entire reason for the need of the Scouring.
    I'm afraid not, that was only in the movie: in the book it was just a bunch of thuggish Men (some of whom did show signs of being part Orc, to be fair) but no Orcs or anything else. The Shire had been taken over but the hobbits hadn't been brutally enslaved. How many times have you done this, now? Will you please just stop trying to tell me what's in the books, as it's plain you either don't know or can't remember.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thakalgundian View Post
    The eastern clans aren't from the Blue Mountains, but from the Red Mountains, I think that is well established in canon tbh (see info from HoME I added in previous reply) - as is the fact that Firebeards and Broadbeams are from the Blue Mountains. So feel free to phrase as you wish really, I don't think there is much confusion on this matter when you read the canon material.
    I am not discussing that. I know that there are four dwarven clans in the Red Mountains and I also know that the Firebeards and Broadbeams are from the Blue Mountains. I think what that statement on the wiki means is that "Dwarves of the Eastern Kingdoms" can mean any kingdom to the east of the Blue Mountains, since it doesn't specify if those are the kingdoms of the far east in the Orocarni. It also doesn't refer to those dwarves as the dwarves of the four eastern clans. It could be talking about the Orocarni as well, but when it says "And the Ered Luin was a prosperous kingdom once again" it does give the impression that that's the place those dwarves are migrating to. And since it is reffered as "home-land" it probably is talking about the Firebeards and Broadbeams. You mentioned that some non-canon materials refers to them returning to the Blue Mountains... can you tell me which materials those are so I can research?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thakalgundian View Post
    There is little need to discuss details such as this really. Tell us more of your idea my friend, looking forward to how you think this would work? Cheers
    I agree I like to learn things, but that is only a small part of the system and something that can be discarded without compromising the whole idea. I already did some adjustments on my OP... but I will keep adding more ideas! I want to elaborate more on the mentoring system now. Those are still developing in my head, but I'll start putting them on paper soon!

  8. #33
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    Too much to read but read some of it, but i will say the Men of Rohan did not take Enedwaith as it was part of the reunited Kingdom Rohan was not part of that but they did have an alliance with gondor of course, and quote from book

    "In Gondor the King Elessar now ruled, and in Arnor also. In all the lands of those realms of old he was king, save in Rohan only; for he renewed to Éomer the gift of Cirion, and Éomer took again the Oath of Eorl." Appendix A II The House of Eorl

    Aragorn as king ruled the realms of old and that includes Enedwaith, Rohan remains only Rohan they did not take or have much more land then before except far to "West", so the idea suggested here doesn't make sense to me to have them in Enedwaith, because Geyflood and Isen what rohan will have isn't what Enedwith is. Greyflood or Gwathlo is just a river separating the land of Minhiriath from Enedwaith. Edit: I somewhat forgotten somethings see other post below.

    and this from the atlas of Middle earth

    Last edited by Pontin_Finnberry; Sep 18 2017 at 06:37 PM.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pontin_Finnberry View Post
    Too much to read but read some of it, but i will say the Men of Rohan did not take Enedwaith as it was part of the reunited Kingdom Rohan was not part of that but they did have an alliance with gondor of course, and quote from book
    It was *Tolkien* who had the idea of having the Rohirrim gradually colonising Enedwaith. And what exactly would Aragorn do with it otherwise? All of a sudden he had vastly more territory than he had people. There's no point ruling empty lands. Plus there'd never been much of anything in Enedwaith, as it was basically just the land that fell in between Arnor and Gondor (beyond Arnor's southern border on the Greyflood, and Gondor's western border on the Isen) and so historically it had never been important to either of them except as a trade route.

    Aragorn as king ruled the realms of old and that includes Enedwaith, Rohan remains only Rohan they did not take or have much more land then before except far to "West", so the idea suggested here doesn't make sense to me to have them in Enedwaith, because Geyflood and Isen what rohan will have isn't what Enedwith is. Greyflood or Gwathlo is just a river separating the land of Minhiriath from Enedwaith.
    If you're going to try to play *that* game then the Rohirrim were already occupying a "realm of old" (Rohan used to be Calenardhon, a province of Gondor) so the precedent's already there. Whether they got any more would be up to Aragorn. Just like he chose to give the hobbits more land. If you think about it, it'd be damn strange if he *didn't* give the Rohirrim something in return for their continued support. Besides that he was trying to get something of the North-kingdom up and running again and having more friendly people closer nearby to trade with would have been good for that was well.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It was *Tolkien* who had the idea of having the Rohirrim gradually colonising Enedwaith. And what exactly would Aragorn do with it otherwise? All of a sudden he had vastly more territory than he had people. There's no point ruling empty lands.
    I somewhat remember this now i had forgotten. yes they kinda did colonize there, and not much Aragorn would do, unless fix up Tharbad? but i think Rohirrim did that, while he took most of Eriador as part of the Reunited kingdom.
    Pontin Level 115 Hobbit Burglar Kinship Second Breakfast Crickhollow Server
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