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  1. #1
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    [System and Content] Colonies and Expansions


    Sauron is defeated, but Middle Earth hasn't recovered from his final blow, yet. Now is the time where the Free Peoples of Middle Earth must join to prosper together.

    Elves and Dwarves send presents to Gondor. Gimli is preparing to make a colony in the Glittering Caves and Mirkwood has been renamed "Eryn Lasgalen" (Wood of the Greenleaves) and its territory has been divided to the Wood-elves in the North, Beornings and Woodmen in the center and the Elves of Lorien in the south. Gondor reclaims a lot of the territories that it lost and becomes one kingdom with Arnor: the Reunited Kingdom. Many dwarves start to move to the Blue Mountains and a future of prosperity awaits them. The forest of Fangorn is extending to Nan Curunír and becoming the "Treegarth of Orthanc". The slaves of Núrn are free and have been given their own land by king Elessar. Elves are beginning a colony in Ithilien.

    Many lands are expanding and prospering during the last two years of the Third Age, the Fourth Age and beyond. What if these expansions and colonies are a system on LOTRO where you, the player, can help the Free Peoples as they expand their borders and rebuild what Sauron destroyed? How many are they? Here are some of those lands:


    • Canon:

      • Glittering Caves - Dwarves of Erebor

      • East Lorien (South Eryn Lasgalen) - Elves of Lorien

      • Central Eryn Lasgalen - Beornings and Woodmen

      • Ithilien, The Wastes, South Wilderland, Dorwinion and Arnor - Men of the Reunited Kingdom

      • Treegarth of Orthanc - Ents

      • Núrn - Men of Núrn

      • Woodland Realm (Northern Eryn Lasgalen) and Ithilien - Wood-elves of Eryn Lasgalen
        With Eryn Lasgalen being made safe again, the elves, who were once confined in the Halls of Thranduil, start to occupy other parts of Northern Eryn Lasgalen. And some of the Woodland elves start a colony in Ithilien, led by Legolas.

      • Near Rhun, Harondor and Umbar - Men of the Reunited Kingdom
        Whenever SSG decides to release a Rhun expansion, there should be two versions of Near Rhun in the game: one that is before the region is retaken by Gondor (Or during Near Rhun during the first military campaign) and one that is after Gondor re-establishes dominance over Near Rhun. The second version is connected with the rest of Rhun in the open world.
        When it's time to release Umbar and Harondor, there will also be two versions of those in the game. One version (a smaller version which does not comprehend all of the region, but just the most contested parts that are important to tell the story of how Gondor re-conquered this province. The second version is what's going to be part of this system, which is when those areas already belong to Gondor.


    • Might be Canon:

      • The Great River and Enedwaith - Men of Rohan
        Although people debate if this is canonical - because this wasn't present in all published versions of "The Peoples of Middle-Earth", it was Tolkien's idea that "'In Eomer's time the realm was extended west beyond the Gap of Rohan as far as the Greyflood and the sea-shores between that river and the Isen, and north to the borders of Lorien, and his men and horses multiplied exceedingly." - The History of Middle-Earth; volume 12: The Peoples of Middle-Earth; part one: The Prologue and Appendices to The Lord of the Rings; chapter IX: The Making of Appendix A; sub-chapter (iii): The House of Eorl; p. 271ff.

      • The Blue Mountains - Dwarves of the eastern kingdoms
        Taken from http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Mountains - "After the War of the Ring, many Dwarves from the eastern kingdoms migrated back to the Blue Mountains. Their population grew and the Blue Mountains became a prosperous kingdom once again.". Even though this is said in the LOTR wiki, I couldn't find any sources to that statement. I suppose that might be taken from "The Peoples of Middle-Earth", since I couldn't find any information about it in the LOTR books or The Book of Lost Tales. My own theory is that these may be the descendents of Firebeards and Broadbeams returning to the ruins of their kingdoms of old in the Blue Mountains to rebuild the realms of Nogrod and Belegost.

    • Non-canon ideas:

      • Gladden Fields - Hobbits of the Vales of Anduin
        I am assuming they were hiding somewhere during the events of the war of the ring (that's why the Nazgul couldn't find them) and want to return to their homeland after the threat of Sauron is gone.

      • Northern Wilderland - Kingdom of Dale
        With the alliance and protection of Gondor and its realm expanding to South Wilderland and Dorwinion, the Northmen expand their domain beyond Dale and Esgaroth to strengthen the bond between their people and Gondor.

      • Éothéod ("horse-land")- Men of Rohan
        It has historical importance to the men of Rohan, as the place where the Éothéod (Ancestors of the Rohirrim) once lived, with its capital being Framsburg. This place was abandoned around TA 2509, but the ruins still remains.

      • Dunharrow - The Druédain
        This is one of the few places where Druédain have lived in the past which still has the marks of their history and it could be said that Rohan has a debt with the Woses. Elessar pays his debt by oficially giving them the forest of Taur Druadan. Maybe Rohan can give them Dunharrow, which is currently a place where no one lives.




    How do colonies and territory expansions work?


    1. They are here to stay.
      Your character will always have a reason to come back to each colony and see what he can contribute with. Colonies will always need resources which you can provide by helping people from other colonies, exploring, hunting. Some areas will need to be defended from an attack from time to time. Tasks boards will be constantly updated with new requests. There is thievery, mischief and bad people to find and capture, new roving threats will appear from time to time. You can also train people on how to be healers, soldiers, officers, hunters, engineers, artisans, scholars, miners, minstrels, etc. Your class and/or crafting skills can definetely play a role in what you may be best at training. For example, a soldier develops archer skills when trained by a hunter, or a scholar is better trained by a lore-master, specially if he is also a scholar by profession.

    2. The whole contribution of the server counts.
      The growth and prosperity of each colony depends on the server. If there are few people aiding, the growth and prosperity will not be as good as if there are many people.

    3. You can leave your mark.
      You can leave your mark in each place you help build. If you were the player that most helped build a certain place, then the people may place a plaque, a tree or a monument in homage to you. Some places may be named after you, as well. For that reason, you may want to choose where do you want to focus on helping. Once a place is completely built, you may no longer have your mark on it, even though you can still help with other things.

    4. There is an UI panel.
      You can check the UI for alerts when there are new quests and threats. You can also monitor the level of education, security, economy, health, supplies (If they have those, since it doesn't make sense to all - for example: ents). Those levels will influence the content of the quests.

    5. Events and festivals every year
      There are events and festivals happening every year. Sometimes events and festivals from different territories happen at the same time and you have to choose which one you will attend and each has its own rewards. If you don't have alts to attend every festival, try again next year.

    6. Territories are expanded gradually per update
      This gives devs time to work on an area before it is released. For example, the beorning and woodmen's colonies will be released first at the west of Eryn Lasgalen and then expand gradually to the east in future updates. The reconstruction of Arnor begins with the Old South Road, therefore the first part to be released should be where this road meets with the Fords of Isen. And Ithilien could have its re-colonization of Minas Ithil after some years cleansing the place.

    7. Each year in real life is a year in game.
      And with that, new quests, new threats, new events every year. For example: 2nd year of Glittering Caves may have some focus on helping the dwarves reform Minas Anor. Or helping the elves of Ithilien reform it, instead.
      And no matter what the level cap is, quests will scale to you.

    8. There are allegiances for every territory
      And they boost your reputation and give you unique rewards.

    More details about the mentoring system soon!
    Last edited by DiogoVP; Sep 18 2017 at 09:12 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    Hey, I just wanted to give this idea to the LOTRO team and actually start a discussion with the players about this. I will edit this post later with more information, but I wanted to get the discussions already going.
    Basically, this is a system where the player can build colonies in new territories.
    You can help build colonies for many different people. Some of these colonies are actually canon, some others are not.
    For example:
    Canon:
    * Glittering Caves - Dwarves of Erebor
    * Ithilien - Wood-elves of Eryn Lasgalen
    * East Lorien (South Eryn Lasgalen) - Elves of Lorien
    * Central Eryn Lasgalen - Beornings and Woodmen
    * The Wastes, Dagorlad, South Wilderland and Arnor - Men of the Reunited Kingdom
    * Treegarth of Orthanc - Ents
    * The Blue-Mountains - Dwarves of the eastern kingdoms

    Non-canon ideas:
    * Re-conolization of the Gladden Fields (Hobbits of the vales of Anduin - I am assuming they were hiding somewhere during the events of the war of the ring and want to return to their homeland after the threat of Sauron is gone)
    * Northern Wilderland - expansion to the kingdom of Dale)
    * Framsburg - old capital of the Eotheod (historical importance to the men of Rohan)
    * Dunharrow - historical importance to the Drúedain

    The reason I am not mentioning Harondor, Umbar and Western Rhun is because those are contested lands and Elessar finds more resistance when reclaiming them back to Gondor. For that reason, I think those areas deserve their own quest/expansion packs.
    Pretty cool ideas, I'd love to see the Gladden fields and possibly northern Mirkwood/Erebor areas
    "Not all those who wander are lost....some are so stubborn that they always think they're going in the right direction."

    "The 4th age is the store age" - Hetweith

  3. #3
    I like the idea, worth exploring indeed, well done.

    Small note, the four eastern clans of Dwarves are located in the Red Mountains (also known as The Orocarni), not the Blue Mountains

    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post

    ... Here are some of those lands:


    • ....
    • The Blue Mountains - Dwarves of the eastern kingdoms

      ....

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thakalgundian View Post
    I like the idea, worth exploring indeed, well done.

    Small note, the four eastern clans of Dwarves are located in the Red Mountains (also known as The Orocarni), not the Blue Mountains
    Hi. Thanks
    About that note, it is really the Blue Mountains that I am talking about. I got that from http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Mountains where it says "After the War of the Ring, many Dwarves from the eastern kingdoms migrated back to the Blue Mountains. Their population grew and the Blue Mountains became a prosperous kingdom once again". However, after you posted this, I started looking for that information in any of Tolkien's works and I still haven't found it. I'll update this thread again once I find a confirmation of whether that is canon or not.

    Update:
    I suppose that information can be found in the book "The Peoples of Middle Earth", but I don't have it, so I can't confirm it yet... but if I find someone that has it and can confirm whether that info is true or not, I'll update my thread.
    Last edited by DiogoVP; Sep 12 2017 at 08:58 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    Gladden Fields - Hobbits of the Vales of Anduin
    I am assuming they were hiding somewhere during the events of the war of the ring (that's why the Nazgul couldn't find them) and want to return to their homeland after the threat of Sauron is gone.
    They'd gone off somewhere else entirely a long time before that, the villages where the Stoors had lived in Smeagol's day were 'long since deserted' by the time the Ring-wraiths came calling and no other sign of hobbit dwellings could be found in the Vales of Anduin.

    Northern Wilderland - Kingdom of Dale
    With the alliance and protection of Gondor and its realm expanding to South Wilderland and Dorwinion, the Northmen expand their domain beyond Dale and Esgaroth to strengthen the bond between their people and Gondor.
    I think they'd need to fix up Dale first, the place would have been comprehensively trashed by the Easterlings after the Battle of Dale. (Not to mention that a lot of the Dale-folk would have been killed).

    Éothéod ("horse-land")- Men of Rohan
    It has historical importance to the men of Rohan, as the place where the Éothéod (Ancestors of the Rohirrim) once lived, with its capital being Framsburg. This place was abandoned around TA 2509, but the ruins still remains.
    Right idea for them to spread out, but the wrong place: after the war they gradually started colonising Enedwaith. They'd got no reason to go back to their ancestral lands - they'd been happy to move south to what became Rohan to begin with because the lands Gondor had given them as a reward for their help were much nicer than where they'd been living.

    Dunharrow - The Druédain
    This place is of historical importance to the Drúedain, so it becomes a small colony for the woses.
    Badly lore-breaking, sorry, The Druedain still didn't want to have anything to do with other Men, and so Aragorn gave them the Druadan Forest as their own lands in perpetuity and forbade anyone else from going in there; having them suddenly spread out into Rohan just isn't sensible. I think you've got plenty to go on already without going that far off the mark.

  6. #6
    Rad, as always great Lore info.

    However I think Hobbits spreading out and recolonizing long abandoned lands is not so far off the mark. There could be an archeology type thing going on where Hobbits learn of their long-forgotten past including the events that led to them abandoning these lands, information that is not always helpful to dig up, Arg! The quest line could be that something is discovered that could destroy the Hobbit-folk and the players' mission is to stop it.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milii View Post
    Rad, as always great Lore info.

    However I think Hobbits spreading out and recolonizing long abandoned lands is not so far off the mark. There could be an archeology type thing going on where Hobbits learn of their long-forgotten past including the events that led to them abandoning these lands, information that is not always helpful to dig up, Arg! The quest line could be that something is discovered that could destroy the Hobbit-folk and the players' mission is to stop it.
    So the hobbits decide to do something breathtakingly stupid and our job is to save them? Sure sounds like a Turbine plot :-/

    If the idea was to have the Mathom Society engaging in a bit of unwise exploration I'd be all for that but the idea of hobbits actually recolonising places like that is crazy. They liked it where they were, living under Aragorn's protection - the Shire was really nice land, too. Why would anyone want to leave there to go live someplace where living would be hard and dangerous? These are Shire-hobbits we're talking about here, not rugged pioneers - and there was plenty of room in Eriador, too. (And when they started to run out of room in the Shire, Aragorn gave them some more).

  8. #8
    I was under the impression that where Smeagal came from was on the edge of the shire or close by. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong if it isn't. But yeah, the Mathom Society with a Colony as a base including a new PipeWeed, a few fields and maybe a new Brew (that is also a new spot for the Ale-delivery) could round it out. But keep the quest line idea in-tact. Of course there would be a lot of people running around with the surname "Took".

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milii View Post
    I was under the impression that where Smeagal came from was on the edge of the shire or close by. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong if it isn't. But yeah, the Mathom Society with a Colony as a base including a new PipeWeed, a few fields and maybe a new Brew (that is also a new spot for the Ale-delivery) could round it out. But keep the quest line idea in-tact. Of course there would be a lot of people running around with the surname "Took".
    Oh heck no, where he was from was on the other side of the Misty Mountains in the Vales of Anduin, somewhere near the river (somewhere downstream of where the Ring was lost when it slipped off Islidur's finger by itself and got him killed). Some long-lost bunch of Stoors once lived round there, a small branch of the hobbits that had never got as far as the Shire.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    They'd gone off somewhere else entirely a long time before that, the villages where the Stoors had lived in Smeagol's day were 'long since deserted' by the time the Ring-wraiths came calling and no other sign of hobbit dwellings could be found in the Vales of Anduin.
    Yes, I am aware that they were gone prior to the war of the ring, but one thing that the book doesn't make clear is what happened with those hobbits. I am coming from the presumption that they simply moved to another area when the shadow came to Mirkwood. It would not be the first time they had moved out of the Gladden Fields and then came back. So they must have a strong connection to that land. This is simply speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I think they'd need to fix up Dale first, the place would have been comprehensively trashed by the Easterlings after the Battle of Dale. (Not to mention that a lot of the Dale-folk would have been killed).
    Yes, they do. I don't think that this expansion would have to take place immediately after the Battle of Dale. My reasoning behind this is that they would expand their realm to strengthen the bonds with Gondor which is now expanding to South Wilderland. It's just an opinion, people are welcome to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Right idea for them to spread out, but the wrong place: after the war they gradually started colonising Enedwaith. They'd got no reason to go back to their ancestral lands - they'd been happy to move south to what became Rohan to begin with because the lands Gondor had given them as a reward for their help were much nicer than where they'd been living.
    I understand your opinion, but I think that there are Rohirric people that are interested in their history, those people could be welcome to explore that land, since it is inhabited and the ruins still remain. I don't think all Rohirric are the same people who like to ride horses and to fight and have glory. Horn is an example of a misfit in Rohan. I agree that they most Rohirrim are perfectly happy in Rohan (maybe all of them, even), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be interested in exploring and colonizing new lands far away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Badly lore-breaking, sorry, The Druedain still didn't want to have anything to do with other Men, and so Aragorn gave them the Druadan Forest as their own lands in perpetuity and forbade anyone else from going in there; having them suddenly spread out into Rohan just isn't sensible. I think you've got plenty to go on already without going that far off the mark.
    I don't think so, sorry. :P
    Yes, Elessar gave them the Druadan Forest, but that doesn't mean that the Druadan Forest is the only place that they should live in. There are other Druadan people living in Drúwaith Iaur and presumably even in Mordor (I haven't done the Mordor quests yet to be sure of what they are doing there). It could be perfectly reasonable to think that with peace in middle earth, the people of Rohan would see no use in having a second refuge with HD being fortified by the dwarves of Erebor and would have no problem in giving part of their refuge in Dunharrow to the Druedain who they have a debt with. They have a history there so I don't see any breaking of lore by admitting that some of them could be interested to see that place become a small colony of woses.
    Last edited by DiogoVP; Sep 12 2017 at 08:23 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    Yes, I am aware that they were gone prior to the war of the ring, but one thing that the book doesn't make clear is what happened with those hobbits. I am coming from the presumption that they simply moved to another area when the shadow came to Mirkwood. It would not be the first time they had moved out of the Gladden Fields and then came back. So they must have a strong connection to that land. This is simply speculation.
    You do realise they'd probably been gone for hundreds of years, right? It'd been more than five hundred years since Smeagol had lived there.

    Yes, they do. I don't think that this expansion would have to take place immediately after the Battle of Dale. My reasoning behind this is that they would expand their realm to strengthen the bonds with Gondor which is now expanding to South Wilderland. It's just an opinion, people are welcome to disagree.
    Expand it with what? They lost a major battle, their king died, their city probably got thoroughly sacked by the Easterlings (and maybe then burnt down for good measurel, that'd be typical), lots of the Dale-folk would be dead or have lost everything. It'd take a whole generation to put that to rights, they'd be in no fit state to expand. It's not as if full-scale war has no consequences, to hear some people talk it's as if the War of the Ring was just some little thing that people could get over in no time flat.

    I understand your opinion, but I think that there are Rohirric people that are interested in their history, those people could be welcome to explore that land, since it is inhabited and the ruins still remain. I don't think all Rohirric are the same people who like to ride horses and to fight and have glory. Horn is an example of a misfit in Rohan. I agree that they most Rohirrim are perfectly happy in Rohan (maybe all of them, even), but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be interested in exploring and colonizing new lands far away.
    You seem to have forgotten that they chose to follow Eorl to what became Rohan in order to make better lives for themselves. A vague interest in history doesn't make people move back onto land they'd given up five hundred years before in favour of a much nicer place (and let's not forget that Rohan was a place people had fought and died for in the past, it was all those people would know and after all that time those old lands would mean nothing to them). It's all very well you making vague generalisations like that but to people like these, good farming land and pasture for their horses would be what mattered most and life up in those lands in the distant north would have been much, much harder. The Rohirrim had room to expand west of the Gap of Rohan, once they'd made peace with the Dunlendings all was good. You could have your would-be colony in Enedwaith, there's no need to go off on some crazy tangent just because you think the lands of the Eotheod are somehow interesting.

    I don't think so, sorry. :P
    Yes, Elessar gave them the Druadan Forest, but that doesn't mean that the Druadan Forest is the only place that they should live in. There are other Druadan people living in Drúwaith Iaur and presumably even in Mordor (I haven't done the Mordor quests yet to be sure of what they are doing there). It could be perfectly reasonable to think that with peace in middle earth, the people of Rohan would see no use in having a second refuge with HD being fortified by the dwarves of Erebor and would have no problem in giving part of their refuge in Dunharrow to the Druedain who they have a debt with. They have a history there so I don't see any breaking of lore by admitting that some of them would be interested to see that place become a small colony of woses.
    They didn't want the company of other Men, they just wanted to be left alone. After Aragorn gave them the Druadan Forest they could live there in peace with nobody bothering them. Dunharrow was two hundred and fifty miles or so from the Druadan Forest and surrounded by a populous area of Rohan (it was only about twenty-five miles from Edoras), plus with no forest there to hunt in what would they be supposed to live on, rocks?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You do realise they'd probably been gone for hundreds of years, right? It'd been more than five hundred years since Smeagol had lived there.
    Expand it with what? They lost a major battle, their king died, their city probably got thoroughly sacked by the Easterlings (and maybe then burnt down for good measurel, that'd be typical), lots of the Dale-folk would be dead or have lost everything. It'd take a whole generation to put that to rights, they'd be in no fit state to expand. It's not as if full-scale war has no consequences, to hear some people talk it's as if the War of the Ring was just some little thing that people could get over in no time flat.
    No, they didn't lose any battle. Yes, there were casualties, 45,000 warriors of Dale fought and 10,000 died. It's not even close to half of their population. Their king died, but his son arose as king, just as Erebor has a new king and that doesn't stop its people from expanding (cough, Glittering Caves, cough).

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You seem to have forgotten that they chose to follow Eorl to what became Rohan in order to make better lives for themselves. A vague interest in history doesn't make people move back onto land they'd given up five hundred years before in favour of a much nicer place (and let's not forget that Rohan was a place people had fought and died for in the past, it was all those people would know and after all that time those old lands would mean nothing to them). It's all very well you making vague generalisations like that but to people like these, good farming land and pasture for their horses would be what mattered most and life up in those lands in the distant north would have been much, much harder. The Rohirrim had room to expand west of the Gap of Rohan, once they'd made peace with the Dunlendings all was good. You could have your would-be colony in Enedwaith, there's no need to go off on some crazy tangent just because you think the lands of the Eotheod are somehow interesting.
    I absolutely did not forget anything, I took all of that in consideration and I asked many scholars that I know to review that post for me. I really take all criticisim, but you still haven't convinced me. Still, you have every right to disagree, I am just not conviced and does it really matter? Those are suggestions, not demands, the devs can pick which ones they like and which ones they do not, if they decide that it's generally a good idea. Besides, Enedwaith becomes part of the Reunited Kingdom. Rohan is not supposed to take a land that belongs to Gondor. The book says it pretty clear that the Reunited Kingdom takes back every land that used to belong to them except for Rohan. Not every person has the same mind, some want adventure and not just confortably stay in their farms or riding horses in their plains. The Eothéod is not just any land, it is the land of their ancestors, surely some Rohirrim would be curious to see what is left of it and even make a home there. Gimli was from the Blue Mountains, that didn't stop him from making a colony in the Glittering Caves, so much farther from his home than the Eothéod is from Rohan. The elves of the halls of Thranduil also made a colony in Ithilien which is very far from their homeland. So your argument "it's too distant" is not enough to convince me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    They didn't want the company of other Men, they just wanted to be left alone. After Aragorn gave them the Druadan Forest they could live there in peace with nobody bothering them. Dunharrow was two hundred and fifty miles or so from the Druadan Forest and surrounded by a populous area of Rohan (it was only about twenty-five miles from Edoras), plus with no forest there to hunt in what would they be supposed to live on, rocks?
    Dunharrow is an empty land, it was only used as a refuge in times of war, so they wouldn't have companies of other men. And trees can be grown.
    Last edited by DiogoVP; Sep 12 2017 at 09:06 PM.

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    Hobbits migrate en masse to get away from danger, but they don't explore and colonize. They've got The Shire, all safe and secure, all to themselves by order of the King. Pretty much all the adventuresome ones have become player characters. The only thing they might do on an organized basis is to find isolated Hobbit settlements (e.g. Maur Tulhau) and invite them to move to The Shire. With regards to mathoms, those are valuable but useless (to Hobbits) items by definition. The Mathom House and Society doesn't hunt for mathoms, they just accept donations for display. Not a motive for adventure.

    The Rohirrim have plenty of excellent land to expand into right on their borders. When they rode to the Field of Celebrant that was a mass migration. They did not leave any good stuff behind and the only reason to visit their ancestral lands would be sentimental. Woodmen and/or Beornings would be the logical/canonical choice for expanding into those areas.

    The Druedain are so insular they make Hobbits seem like extroverts. They've got their forest, again guaranteed by the new King, and that's it. There may be isolated bands of Druedain in other places that could become the basis of a reunification quest arc, but that's about it.

    There's a vast area south and east of Mordor where Aragorn and Eomer battled with Southrons and Easterlings for years. There's plenty of opportunity for new content there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    No, they didn't lose any battle. Yes, there were casualties, 45,000 warriors of Dale fought and 10,000 died. It's not even close to half of their population. Their king died, but his son arose as king, just as Erebor has a new king and that doesn't stop its people from expanding (cough, Glittering Caves, cough).
    They lost the initial battle, that's how the surviving Men and Dwarves ended up penned up under siege in Erebor. Trying to pretend that'd have had no consequences is mind-boggling. It doesn't appear to have occurred to you that the Dale-folk could easily have taken the brunt of the casualties and ended up a lot worse off than the Dwarves but hey, never mind, the Dwarves could always help them rebuild Dale *again*.

    I absolutely did not forget anything, I took all of that in consideration and I asked many scholars that I know to review that post for me. I really take all criticisim, but you still haven't convinced me. Still, you have every right to disagree, I am just not conviced and does it really matter? Those are suggestions, not demands, the devs can pick which ones they like and which ones they do not, if they decide that it's generally a good idea. Besides, Enedwaith becomes part of the Reunited Kingdom. Rohan is not supposed to take a land that belongs to Gondor. The book says it pretty clear that the Reunited Kingdom takes back every land that used to belong to them except for Rohan. Not every person has the same mind, some want adventure and not just confortably stay in their farms or riding horses in their plains. The Eothéod is not just any land, it is the land of their ancestors, surely some Rohirrim would be curious to see what is left of it and even make a home there. Gimli was from the Blue Mountains, that didn't stop him from making a colony in the Glittering Caves, so much farther from his home than the Eothéod is from Rohan. The elves of the halls of Thranduil also made a colony in Ithilien which is very far from their homeland. So your argument "it's too distant" is not enough to convince me.
    It's not just the distance (although at roughly five hundred miles that's far enough), it's the fact it was way up north as that would have made it cold and windswept (small wonder they left!). And the idea of the Rohirrim settling Enedwaith was Tolkien's, not mine. (And it makes way more sense than yours does). Why would Aragorn have had any problem with his closest allies making use of lands he didn't have anything like enough people to occupy? He gave the hobbits more land as their population grew, remember, and the Rohirrim were way more useful to him than the hobbits were. Aragorn was relying on the Rohirrim to help him fight his enemies so rewarding them for their service would be what a good, wise and just king would do.

    And do stop going on about the Glittering Caves, that's not comparing like with like. Gimli fell in love with the place because it looked awesome, plus it had lots of nice stuff to mine and potential customers living right next door - exactly what a Dwarf-hall needed. As for anyone wanting to move all that way up north to the old lands of the Eotheod - I can only imagine them trying to explain that to their wives. I can also imagine all their friends laughing at them in the mead-hall when they suggested it. It's that bad an idea.

    Dunharrow is an empty land, it was only used as a refuge in times of war, so they wouldn't have companies of other men. And trees can be grown.
    No, not an empty *land*, it was a place. Its immediate surroundings were empty because it was forbidding and seriously creepy but you should go look where it actually was, though, not that far from Edoras. As for growing trees... don't be silly, what would they do in the meantime?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You do realise they'd probably been gone for hundreds of years, right? It'd been more than five hundred years since Smeagol had lived there.
    And how many years has it been since the Moors were pushed out of Spain? Listen closely to Muslims and they are encouraging the emigration to Spain because it once belonged to Muslims and should belong to them again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nosdracir View Post
    Hobbits migrate en masse to get away from danger, but they don't explore and colonize. They've got The Shire, all safe and secure, all to themselves by order of the King. Pretty much all the adventuresome ones have become player characters. The only thing they might do on an organized basis is to find isolated Hobbit settlements (e.g. Maur Tulhau) and invite them to move to The Shire. With regards to mathoms, those are valuable but useless (to Hobbits) items by definition. The Mathom House and Society doesn't hunt for mathoms, they just accept donations for display. Not a motive for adventure.
    Hobbits also have a propensity for large families. Farming takes large tracks of land. In fact the demise of the Family Farm in the USA and most Socialist/Communist redistribution of land (including Southern Plantations after the Civil War) is the large farms were reduced to too small or parcels to be anything more substantial than subsistence farming (ie- farming to keep one's self and maybe one's family alive with nothing left over). History tells us that after a major war there is a large uptick in the birth-rate. All of this leads to the idea that Hobbits might just need to expand to continue their agrarian culture.

    Donating to the Mathom Society is a thing of pride and renown with large donors having a spot in society not so unlike a Knight of Renown in human societies. Therefore as the adventures of the War of the Rings wear down and peace replaces war, then those adventurous Hobbits would need somewhere to settle down in. As we can tell from the Sackenville-Bagganses (or whatevertheirnameis), if a Hobbit goes on a long adventure they might just find there is not much left to return home to, even without the sacking of the Shire by bad-tasting Orcsesess. Being able to have new land and gain even more fame by finding Mathoms while preparing one's fields for new strains of hops, flowers, and Pipeweed would sate all but the most adventurous of Tooks plus would probably attract even more Hobbits whose parents' farms are too small to be worth an inheritance.

    Another thing to remember is that most adventurers historically have been younger members of families that wouldn't have an inheritance anyway and younger members of a society that when they age most take their fame and booty and settle down. Even Bilbo settled down and lost his wander-lust, but he settled down in Rivendale, not the Shire so much. This means Hobbits returning from adventures may very well find the Shire too quiet but still want someplace to settle that is Not-Shire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    They lost the initial battle, that's how the surviving Men and Dwarves ended up penned up under siege in Erebor. Trying to pretend that'd have had no consequences is mind-boggling. It doesn't appear to have occurred to you that the Dale-folk could easily have taken the brunt of the casualties and ended up a lot worse off than the Dwarves but hey, never mind, the Dwarves could always help them rebuild Dale *again*.
    lol So they lost in the same way that the Rohirrim lost at the Fords of Isen or that the people of Gondor lost in Osgiliath, still that didn't stop Gondor from expanding their territory. Even considering that their battles had many casualties as well, so it's not like they needed to expand for lack of space for their people. That's how things work. Having lost the initial battle doesn't mean losing the war, they came out victorious and achieved piece and if they want to make their kingdom better protected against future assaults, they have to expand and grow.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It's not just the distance (although at roughly five hundred miles that's far enough), it's the fact it was way up north as that would have made it cold and windswept (small wonder they left!). And the idea of the Rohirrim settling Enedwaith was Tolkien's, not mine. (And it makes way more sense than yours does). Why would Aragorn have had any problem with his closest allies making use of lands he didn't have anything like enough people to occupy? He gave the hobbits more land as their population grew, remember, and the Rohirrim were way more useful to him than the hobbits were. Aragorn was relying on the Rohirrim to help him fight his enemies so rewarding them for their service would be what a good, wise and just king would do.
    Simply because Tolkien said that Aragorn reclaimed all of Gondor's lost territories as part of the Reunited Kingdom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    And do stop going on about the Glittering Caves, that's not comparing like with like. Gimli fell in love with the place because it looked awesome, plus it had lots of nice stuff to mine and potential customers living right next door - exactly what a Dwarf-hall needed. As for anyone wanting to move all that way up north to the old lands of the Eotheod - I can only imagine them trying to explain that to their wives. I can also imagine all their friends laughing at them in the mead-hall when they suggested it. It's that bad an idea.
    Not a problem to those Rohirrim who live in Wildermore, if those lands are in fact so cold. You speak for yourself. I also asked some scholars of Tolkien to review this for me and as far as everything that I wrote, there is nothing that they found absurd. You are welcome to disagree, but you will not convince me with arguments based on opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    No, not an empty *land*, it was a place. Its immediate surroundings were empty because it was forbidding and seriously creepy but you should go look where it actually was, though, not that far from Edoras. As for growing trees... don't be silly, what would they do in the meantime?
    It was a place... lol And what place is not a place, I wonder?
    It was empty of people, they would only go there in times of war, but with Helm's Deep being fortified by the dwarves of the Glittering Caves, they may no longer need Dunharrow as a refuge as well. I already know where Dunharrow is, the fact that there people near that means nothing as there were also people near Taur Druadan in Anorien. (Crithost, the warning beacons, Ost Rimmon...) so it wouldn't be a problem for them to be in a place because there are Rohirrim living in Underharrow lol That's bs.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milii View Post
    And how many years has it been since the Moors were pushed out of Spain? Listen closely to Muslims and they are encouraging the emigration to Spain because it once belonged to Muslims and should belong to them again.
    Somehow I can't quite imagine hobbits sharing that sort of sentiment, to put it mildly. Besides which, if they'd found somewhere safer and nicer to live, why would they even want to?

    Hobbits also have a propensity for large families. Farming takes large tracks of land. In fact the demise of the Family Farm in the USA and most Socialist/Communist redistribution of land (including Southern Plantations after the Civil War) is the large farms were reduced to too small or parcels to be anything more substantial than subsistence farming (ie- farming to keep one's self and maybe one's family alive with nothing left over). History tells us that after a major war there is a large uptick in the birth-rate. All of this leads to the idea that Hobbits might just need to expand to continue their agrarian culture.
    True enough but there was apparently no trace of any other hobbit settlements in the Vales of Anduin, which takes care of that idea. (And given that the Ring-wraiths were looking for the One Ring I'd imagine they made a thorough job of looking).

    Donating to the Mathom Society is a thing of pride and renown with large donors having a spot in society not so unlike a Knight of Renown in human societies. Therefore as the adventures of the War of the Rings wear down and peace replaces war, then those adventurous Hobbits would need somewhere to settle down in. As we can tell from the Sackenville-Bagganses (or whatevertheirnameis), if a Hobbit goes on a long adventure they might just find there is not much left to return home to, even without the sacking of the Shire by bad-tasting Orcsesess. Being able to have new land and gain even more fame by finding Mathoms while preparing one's fields for new strains of hops, flowers, and Pipeweed would sate all but the most adventurous of Tooks plus would probably attract even more Hobbits whose parents' farms are too small to be worth an inheritance.
    Going on adventures is nothing like the same as settling somewhere. The idea of setting up a colony there 'just because' is simply nuts (if it was that great a place, what happened to Smeagol's people?). And why the heck are you talking about Orcs in the Shire, now? Have you really read the books at all? Every time you post it sounds more and more like you've only seen the movies.

    Another thing to remember is that most adventurers historically have been younger members of families that wouldn't have an inheritance anyway and younger members of a society that when they age most take their fame and booty and settle down. Even Bilbo settled down and lost his wander-lust, but he settled down in Rivendale, not the Shire so much. This means Hobbits returning from adventures may very well find the Shire too quiet but still want someplace to settle that is Not-Shire.
    There'd be plenty of better, safer places much closer to home than the Vales of Anduin. No reason whatsoever to pick there in particular. As for Bilbo, he settled down in the Shire for nearly sixty years before he eventually left to go to Rivendell.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosdracir View Post
    Hobbits migrate en masse to get away from danger, but they don't explore and colonize. They've got The Shire, all safe and secure, all to themselves by order of the King. Pretty much all the adventuresome ones have become player characters. The only thing they might do on an organized basis is to find isolated Hobbit settlements (e.g. Maur Tulhau) and invite them to move to The Shire. With regards to mathoms, those are valuable but useless (to Hobbits) items by definition. The Mathom House and Society doesn't hunt for mathoms, they just accept donations for display. Not a motive for adventure.
    I think you missed the point, I am not talking about Hobbits of the Shire... I am talking about those that are descended from the Stoor hobbits of the Gladden Fields that had abandonned their homes
    a few centuries before the war of the ring (According to my own canon, because some people can argue that they were all killed, but Tolkien never addresses it)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nosdracir View Post
    The Rohirrim have plenty of excellent land to expand into right on their borders. When they rode to the Field of Celebrant that was a mass migration. They did not leave
    any good stuff behind and the only reason to visit their ancestral lands would be sentimental. Woodmen and/or Beornings would be the logical/canonical choice for expanding into those areas.
    That's your opinion and I respect that, but the Woodmen and Beornings are already expanding into Central Eryn Lasgalen (Central Mirkwood).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nosdracir View Post
    There's a vast area south and east of Mordor where Aragorn and Eomer battled with Southrons and Easterlings for years. There's plenty of opportunity for new content there.
    You are talking about Near Rhun and Umbar, right? If it is, I am going to address this later. I had already written a small note at the end of my post about it, but I am going to give more details soon

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    lol So they lost in the same way that the Rohirrim lost at the Fords of Isen or that the people of Gondor lost in Osgiliath, still that didn't stop Gondor from expanding their territory. Even considering that their battles had many casualties as well, so it's not like they needed to expand for lack of space for their people. That's how things work. Having lost the initial battle doesn't mean losing the war, they came out victorious and achieved piece and if they want to make their kingdom better protected against future assaults, they have to expand and grow.
    Err... no. The army of Dale lost and was driven off, so that they had to hole up in Erebor with the Dwarves. So what happened to Dale, then, with its army gone and umpteen thousand Easterlings about? Nobody else had anything quite that bad happen during the war.

    Simply because Tolkien said that Aragorn reclaimed all of Gondor's lost territories as part of the Reunited Kingdom.
    As I already said, the Rohirrim colonising Enedwaith was Tolkien's own idea. What part of that are you having trouble with? Aragorn could give part of his lands to anyone he wanted to. It'd be exactly the same as when Gondor had given them land to live on in the first place. (That's what Rohan was, the former Gondorian province of Calenardhon).

    Not a problem to those Rohirrim who live in Wildermore, if those lands are in fact so cold. You speak for yourself. I also asked some scholars of Tolkien to review this for me and as far as everything that I wrote, there is nothing that they found absurd. You are welcome to disagree, but you will not convince me with arguments based on opinion.
    Middle-earth got colder the farther north you went, it was a lingering effect of Morgoth's power. That's why it was so damn cold in Forodwaith which, incidentally, was what lay just the other side of the Grey Mountains from the old lands of the Eotheod. So no, their old lands wouldn't have been a particularly nice place, and that was one reason why Northmen were so tough. And any so-called 'scholars of Tolkien' should damn well know that.

    It was a place... lol And what place is not a place, I wonder?
    It was empty of people, they would only go there in times of war, but with Helm's Deep being fortified by the dwarves of the Glittering Caves, they may no longer need Dunharrow as a refuge as well. I already know where Dunharrow is, the fact that there people near that means nothing as there were also people near Taur Druadan in Anorien. (Crithost, the warning beacons, Ost Rimmon...) so it wouldn't be a problem for them to be in a place because there are Rohirrim living in Underharrow lol That's bs.
    You said 'land', pal, and as I said it wasn't a whole land but just a place. And it looks like you've forgotten that the game's scale makes places look an awful lot closer together than they were really meant to be. Helm's Deep was the refuge for the Westfold, not the whole of Rohan. Thinking of the movies, were you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Err... no. The army of Dale lost and was driven off, so that they had to hole up in Erebor with the Dwarves. So what happened to Dale, then, with its army gone and umpteen thousand Easterlings about? Nobody else had anything quite that bad happen during the war.
    45,000 warriors of Dale, 10,000 casualties... yeah it seems it was quite a loss. Gondor suffered a much greater loss of warriors than that, in quantity and proportion.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    As I already said, the Rohirrim colonising Enedwaith was Tolkien's own idea. What part of that are you having trouble with? Aragorn could give part of his lands to anyone he wanted to. It'd be exactly the same as when Gondor had given them land to live on in the first place. (That's what Rohan was, the former Gondorian province of Calenardhon).
    As I said in this thread, I don't have access to the "The Peoples of Middle Earth", but I found a mention of Rohan extending their territories in Enedwaith and the Great River and that's very interesting, although people say it's not canonical... but you're right saying that this was Tolkien's idea and it would be a lovely idea for LOTRO to explore. I still stand by a small colony in the Eothéod though ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Middle-earth got colder the farther north you went, it was a lingering effect of Morgoth's power. That's why it was so damn cold in Forodwaith which, incidentally, was what lay just the other side of the Grey Mountains from the old lands of the Eotheod. So no, their old lands wouldn't have been a particularly nice place, and that was one reason why Northmen were so tough. And any so-called 'scholars of Tolkien' should damn well know that.
    I wasn't debating that, I know that is grows colder in the north, but that region is still not Forodwaith, so it may not be so cold as you make it seem to be.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    45,000 warriors of Dale, 10,000 casualties.
    And where exactly are you getting those figures from?

    .. yeah it seems it was quite a loss. Gondor suffered a much greater loss of warriors than that, in quantity and proportion.
    Likewise, you seem to be making things up wholesale.

    As I said in this thread, I don't have access to the "The Peoples of Middle Earth", but I found a mention of Rohan extending their territories in Enedwaith and the Great River and that's very interesting, although people say it's not canonical... but you're right saying that this was Tolkien's idea and it would be a lovely idea for LOTRO to explore. I still stand by a small colony in the Eothéod though ^^
    'Canonical' doesn't mean what you think it does, it simply means something an author (Tolkien, in this case) can be shown to have written himself. (As opposed to the stuff you're making up). But regardless, it's a genuine bit of Tolkien's thinking and it's logical. It fits into his general scheme of things and it'd give you a legit reason to have the Rohirrim starting new settlements. What more do you want?

    I wasn't debating that, I know that is grows colder in the north, but that region is still not Forodwaith, so it may not be so cold as you make it seem to be.
    The whole point is that Calenardhon would have been so much nicer that the then Eotheod jumped at the chance to take up Gondor's offer of a *much* better place to live (way down south where the climate would be far more forgiving - warmer, longer growing season, milder winters, better arable land, the works) and nobody would be in any hurry at all to go back. It'd be like being, say, a Norman knight and deciding for no good reason that you fancied going back to live in Scandinavia where your ancestors had come from five hundred years before. Doesn't sound so likely now, does it? Five hundred years is a long time, and it would be *extremely* unlikely for anyone to move back to somewhere where life would be a good deal harder.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    And where exactly are you getting those figures from?
    Likewise, you seem to be making things up wholesale.
    I don't make anything up, I took these from http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Dale and http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of...elennor_Fields
    But thanks for questioning that, it made me go back and look for the sources behind those allegations and it was a mistake of mine not to check that before. In any case, there is no indication as far as I could see that Dale lost most of its people or even close. If you have an information that proves the contrary, please show me. And Gondor also lost many of its people from the Battle of Osgiliath to the Battle of the Black Gate and you can still see that Gondor expanded its realm a LOT after that. Gondor didn't have to expand because of lack of people, and the same thing can be said about Dale. I see it as them trying to have closer relationships with Gondor and also improving their economy, resources, security, etc. It seems that that is what many kingdoms are doing in the Fourth Age: expanding. Woodland Elves going to Ithilien, Lorien elves in East Lorien, Shire with Buckland and later the Westmarch, Arnor and Gondor, now you mention that Tolkien had this idea of Rohan expanding as well, and the dwarves of Erebor... that's where those ideas come from.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    'Canonical' doesn't mean what you think it does, it simply means something an author (Tolkien, in this case) can be shown to have written himself. (As opposed to the stuff you're making up). But regardless, it's a genuine bit of Tolkien's thinking and it's logical. It fits into his general scheme of things and it'd give you a legit reason to have the Rohirrim starting new settlements. What more do you want?
    I don't want anything, it is you who want to convince me that I am wrong and I don't have any issues with going back on my decisions and apologizing for my mistakes, I am just being honest when I say that you still haven't convinced me that any of those ideas are crazy. And I said it wasn't Canonical because that's what was said at the forums which I got this information that Rohan expands to Enedwaith and the Great River. I am not a true scholar of Tolkien, that's why I sent this thread to many people that I know that are, so they could give me their opinion and tell me if there was any mistakes that I had made. Now here is what this people had to say: "Okay, 'Enedwaith' isn't mentioned by name, but 'the regions between Greyflood and Isen' is exactly what Enedwaith is.
    And the idea was not short living since it made it even through one rewriting. But it is deleted from the final version, so it is for sure uncanonical."[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    'The whole point is that Calenardhon would have been so much nicer that the then Eotheod jumped at the chance to take up Gondor's offer of a *much* better place to live (way down south where the climate would be far more forgiving - warmer, longer growing season, milder winters, better arable land, the works) and nobody would be in any hurry at all to go back. It'd be like being, say, a Norman knight and deciding for no good reason that you fancied going back to live in Scandinavia where your ancestors had come from five hundred years before. Doesn't sound so likely now, does it? Five hundred years is a long time, and it would be *extremely* unlikely for anyone to move back to somewhere where life would be a good deal harder.
    I understand, but I also think that they moved because their population was growing and they didn't have enough spaces because of their horses, but now that Rohan has developed, it can survive on its own if a few people decide they want to live in Éothéod, which is not a really big area, I presume... It's probably a couple dozens of people living in and around Framsburg with some farms and collecting resources that are unique to that place and delivering to Rohan. It's definetely an area that is unoccupied and that would atract some people who would like to see it and perhaps just like Gimli, fall in love when they see it. I think the Étheód had to move mostly because of space, strategy and because it would be easier to go to the aid of Gondor when they needed it. But now that they have enough people in Rohan to go to the aid of Gondor, it is not absolutely implausible that some farmers, merchants and some explorers would want to go there for its unique flora and there could be some scholars sometimes visiting the place, because there are likely still relics and other things they may have left behind.
    But I respect your opinion. I just disagree, I am sorry.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    In which case the question becomes one of where on earth did *they* get them from as it's unattributed. Don't be that guy who's all "but it says so on this website so it must be true".

    I don't want anything, it is you who want to convince me that I am wrong and I don't have any issues with going back on my decisions and apologizing for my mistakes, I am just being honest when I say that you still haven't convinced me that any of those ideas are crazy. And I said it wasn't Canonical because that's what was said at the forums which I got this information that Rohan expands to Enedwaith and the Great River. I am not a true scholar of Tolkien, that's why I sent this thread to many people that I know that are, so they could give me their opinion and tell me if there was any mistakes that I had made. Now here is what this people had to say: "Okay, 'Enedwaith' isn't mentioned by name, but 'the regions between Greyflood and Isen' is exactly what Enedwaith is.
    And the idea was not short living since it made it even through one rewriting. But it is deleted from the final version, so it is for sure uncanonical."
    And again... you still don't know what canonical means. it was an idea he had himself, and it's way more likely than your idea so if we're looking for a sensible place for Rohan to expand, that's it.

    I understand, but I also think that they moved because their population was growing and they didn't have enough spaces because of their horses, but now that Rohan has developed, it can survive on its own if a few people decide they want to live in Éothéod, which is not a really big area, I presume... It's probably a couple dozens of people living in and around Framsburg with some farms and collecting resources that are unique to that place and delivering to Rohan. It's definetely an area that is unoccupied and that would atract some people who would like to see it and perhaps just like Gimli, fall in love when they see it. I think the Étheód had to move mostly because of space, strategy and because it would be easier to go to the aid of Gondor when they needed it. But now that they have enough people in Rohan to go to the aid of Gondor, it is not absolutely implausible that some farmers, merchants and some explorers would want to go there for its unique flora and there could be some scholars sometimes visiting the place, because there are likely still relics and other things they may have left behind.
    But I respect your opinion. I just disagree, I am sorry.
    The Eotheod moved because Gondor offered them land (and not just any land but somewhere much nicer than where they were) in exchange for their assistance in time of war. Of course that meant they had to be close by, there'd have been no point otherwise. But it was a really, really good deal, because a close relationship with Gondor meant they could learn a bunch of stuff from them as well, trade easily, all that good stuff.

    This is really just you thinking that place is somehow interesting and then clumsily trying to project that interest onto the people in the story, who'd have no real reason to want to leave Rohan and trudge off back to the chilly northern hinterland their distant ancestors had come from. You seem to have this idea in your head that one bit of land's as good as another and that's simply not the case (just look at the real world, it's not as if Middle-earth should be any different there). Plus a people who'd migrated in their own good time (rather than fleeing to get away from something) would have had time to pack up all their important stuff and take it with them. Sure there'd still be relics there *buried with their former owners* but anyone with any respect would leave them where they were. Given that nearly all their buildings would have been built out of wood, after five hundred years there'd be hardly anything left to see. The tumbled remains of old stone walls, old rune-stones someone had put up long ago as markers or to commemorate things that happened, and burial mounds. Maybe having someone visiting to poke around out of scholarly curiosity might make for a quest or two but the idea of a bunch of people actually moving back there permanently 'just because' is nuts. Subsistence farming in a northerly climate is really, really hard - much harder than they'd have been used to in Rohan, they'd have to change what crops they grew, all sorts of things.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by DiogoVP View Post
    Hi. Thanks
    About that note, it is really the Blue Mountains that I am talking about. I got that from http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Blue_Mountains where it says "After the War of the Ring, many Dwarves from the eastern kingdoms migrated back to the Blue Mountains. Their population grew and the Blue Mountains became a prosperous kingdom once again". However, after you posted this, I started looking for that information in any of Tolkien's works and I still haven't found it. I'll update this thread again once I find a confirmation of whether that is canon or not.

    Update:
    I suppose that information can be found in the book "The Peoples of Middle Earth", but I don't have it, so I can't confirm it yet... but if I find someone that has it and can confirm whether that info is true or not, I'll update my thread.

    I have checked the link you have given in your reply and I'm afraid it does not say "migrated back to the Blue Mountains", but rather "migrated back to their ancient homeland", which is correct, as it refers to the Orocarni (the Red Mountains).



    The confusion here lies in the fact that many dwarves of the 4 eastern clans (from the Red Mountains) fled to the West (The Blue Mountains) due to the ongoing wars in the East in the years preceding the War of the Ring.

    " But now Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West." - The Fellowship of the Ring - Chapter 2. The Shadow of the Past

    The Eastern clans, which are Stiffbeards, Stonefoots, Ironfists and Blacklocks originated in the Red Mountains (far to the East). The only two clans to call the Blue Mountains their home were in fact the Firebeards and the Broadbeams (these clans migrated in S.A.40 to Khazad-dûm after the ruin of Beleriand). This you will see confirmed in the History of Middle-Earth (12.The People of Middle-Earth - "Of Dwarves and Men"):



    Hence, I believe your text should indeed be corrected to "Red Mountains" and not "Blue Mountains", as you've initially written.
    I hope that clarifies it a bit.

  25. #25
    Rad, The Shire were attacked by orcs, goblins or some foul race of creatures who enslaved the Hobbits. This WAS in the books, it was in the She-Elf Queen's Mirror. It is the entire reason for the need of the Scouring.

    Why is that when someone disagrees with you that you always resort to "you are wrong" or now "your source is wrong"? How come when people answer your arguments with reasoned counters you ignore those counters and pose a question that was just answered as if the person did not answer it at all?

    I am not saying anyone has a better idea than you do, but sometimes people have equally plausible ideas and you refuse to admit such a possibility; it is like it is either your understanding of the material or the other person is wrong. Fact is no writer puts into their stories every tiny detail they imagine in their world, although by what I hear of Tolkien he probably had more extensive written background info than most other writers, even so even he would not go into the tiniest details of 'twenty men and women from 'x' traveled to and settled 'y'' for such a thing would be too much detail unless that group sometime later made history or grew in numbers to be of note. Do you think that Tolkien listed every single mining operation the Dwarves were involved in? It takes coal to run Forges and coal is not often found alongside of Iron, Gold or other precious metals or gems. Even peoples who later became of historical note leave historical mysteries of their origins, such as the Egyptians, Greeks, and I could go on and on; in fact until DNA showed otherwise historians thought Native Americans all came from a Land-bridge from Asia.

    I really have no idea how much was written about after the War of the Rings but considering that the bulk of the material was written about the world and societies that led up to the War and the crowning jewel of his writing was the War of the Rings, I would think that the information of After the War was less filled in than that spanning the tens of thousands of years prior to that. Sure, deciding to put down that this group AS A LARGE GROUP went here or there makes sense, but putting down that this handful of peoples went here or there wouldn't even enter the mind unless a new story was in mind and that small clan played a part in that expanded story, a story that never was penned.

    Since this game takes the biggest secret ever made (the Journey of the Ring) and makes it so that hundreds of people are roaming around knowing this secret and aiding the Fellowship along their most secret Journey, a bit of literary license has already been taken by the game, so to take a bit more of a license while making a postscript to the War is to be expected and even demanded to make a viable game.
    Last edited by Milii; Sep 14 2017 at 10:54 AM.

 

 
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