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  1. #1

    Let's talk about Rend

    Everywhere I go I see an outcry over the fact that the Rend legacy did not scale as much as the armour values on creeps/mobs. My question is, why do the (vocal) majority of champions believe that Yellow Line champions are entitled to having such a strong AoE armour debuff? Previously, it was far too strong (in my opinion). If you want something like that to be brought back, it seems to me that the armour debuff was more of a crutch to you than anything else.

    We don't need an insane debuff value on Rend to be viable, so why continue to ask for something that was clearly unhealthy in many aspects of the game? It seems to me that the role of debuffing should be left to the specialisations that were designated for it, namely Lore-masters and Burglars (perhaps Beornings in yellow?).
    Last edited by Giliodor; Aug 13 2017 at 06:21 AM.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  2. #2
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    The problem is that champs won't get invite to the new raid coming with u22, you need more mit essences than any other dps class, flurry didn't scale you need more crit essences than any other dps class, you need an absurd amount of finesse because phys class, we are not getting tact mit with vitality. Yes we can aoe but rks and wardens can do it as well.

    Rks can reduce armour way better than we can atm, they can aoe, can achieve a higher mastery and won't get as many partials as we would, while having 2 in combat rez.

    Champs were getting a spot on raids mainly because of rend now what they have to offer to the group?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by danee593 View Post
    The problem is that champs won't get invite to the new raid coming with u22, you need more mit essences than any other dps class, flurry didn't scale you need more crit essences than any other dps class, you need an absurd amount of finesse because phys class, we are not getting tact mit with vitality. Yes we can aoe but rks and wardens can do it as well.

    Rks can reduce armour way better than we can atm, they can aoe, can achieve a higher mastery and won't get as many partials as we would, while having 2 in combat rez.

    Champs were getting a spot on raids mainly because of rend now what they have to offer to the group?
    If there is something that needs AOE dps, champ is clearly by far the best choice. Its litterally better than 3 RK/Wardens for killing trash fast. Yep, RK and Warden can do AOE. But the time they need to stack their dots and the number of targets affected... enemies usually are dead if a champ kills them before RK and warden even start. trash and adds is, whats champs job. debuffing is supporters job. champs still have a redline for ST dps. If you need more dps to be viable in raids, cry that redline is too weak (which it isnt). But rend should never have been as strong as it was and its good as its now on 115.
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  4. #4
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    So you are going to waste a raid spot to kill the trash fast? Lol
    How many bosses actually requires to kill the adds?
    Red line is good but even wardens can do better dps on single target, seriously no point on taking a champ.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by danee593 View Post
    So you are going to waste a raid spot to kill the trash fast? Lol
    How many bosses actually requires to kill the adds?
    Red line is good but even wardens can do better dps on single target, seriously no point on taking a champ.
    If your gear isnt crazily OP, you need to kill adds in many fights. I have seen trash kill people at Rakothas in T1.
    You obviously want to kill adds at Mumaks. You want to kill adds at Boss3... there are adds in each bossfight. Sometimes, their number is small and its easier to let a hunter shoot them... but whenever the addnumber is bigger, clearly champ is the best choice. and getting through the gauntlet is not only faster but much easier with champs.

    Plus, we dont know how the next instances/raid work. there might be even more adds. And maybe, there will be adds that not just stop spawning if you dont kill them.
    or adds that actually hurt the tanks and cannot just be tanked in any number.

    As I wrote: Champjob is mainly AOE dps. if you feel its ST dps is too low in redline, start a thread for that. But champs shouldnt only be there for rend.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    But champs shouldnt only be there for rend.
    Agreed. Sadly that's what champs been doing in throne (aoe dps too) but mainly rend.


    Rend made champs necessary for groups, now that is almost useless raid leaders are going to ask for different classes.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    If there is something that needs AOE dps, champ is clearly by far the best choice. Its litterally better than 3 RK/Wardens for killing trash fast. Yep, RK and Warden can do AOE. But the time they need to stack their dots and the number of targets affected... enemies usually are dead if a champ kills them before RK and warden even start. trash and adds is, whats champs job. debuffing is supporters job. champs still have a redline for ST dps. If you need more dps to be viable in raids, cry that redline is too weak (which it isnt). But rend should never have been as strong as it was and its good as its now on 115.
    the problem is there is no other support for yellow champs. so nerf this one skill you nerf the total class extremly.
    And red may not be weak but it´s much weaker as hunters and rks st, so not worth to take a champ for stdps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Everywhere I go I see an outcry over the fact that the Rend legacy did not scale as much as the armour values on creeps/mobs. My question is, why do the (vocal) majority of champions believe that Yellow Line champions are entitled to having such a strong AoE armour debuff? Previously, it was far too strong (in my opinion). If you want something like that to be brought back, it seems to me that the armour debuff was more of a crutch to you than anything else.

    We don't need an insane debuff value on Rend to be viable, so why continue to ask for something that was clearly unhealthy in many aspects of the game? It seems to me that the role of debuffing should be left to the specialisations that were designated for it, namely Lore-masters and Burglars (perhaps Beornings in yellow?).
    then they need to be able to debuff 10+ targets or they aren´t a support for a yello champ.
    and you won´t take a yellow champ for trash dps if it isn´t high enough. hunters and rks do st more dps as a champ aoe up to 5 targets. So it´s even better to kill one after another with a hunter or a rk as kill all at the same time with a champ.
    without a meaningfull renddebuff champs aren´t worth to choose anymore they not just loose this debuff they loose 50-50% of their dps with this nerf.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    the problem is there is no other support for yellow champs. so nerf this one skill you nerf the total class extremly.
    And red may not be weak but it´s much weaker as hunters and rks st, so not worth to take a champ for stdps.

    then they need to be able to debuff 10+ targets or they aren´t a support for a yello champ.
    and you won´t take a yellow champ for trash dps if it isn´t high enough. hunters and rks do st more dps as a champ aoe up to 5 targets. So it´s even better to kill one after another with a hunter or a rk as kill all at the same time with a champ.
    without a meaningfull renddebuff champs aren´t worth to choose anymore they not just loose this debuff they loose 50-50% of their dps with this nerf.
    Well... Vastin told us, that once people reached 115 and he sees the potential of classes, there will be time for rebalancing.
    We told the DEVs for years that RK needs a nerf and for months that blue hunters need a fix for barrage. If they just reduce RK/Hunter dps, you'd have no problem with Rend anymore, right?
    We dont know what the future brings. No one knows the next raid. Balance work is announced. Please dont ask the devs to redo the broken state that Rend was at 105.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Well... Vastin told us, that once people reached 115 and he sees the potential of classes, there will be time for rebalancing.
    We told the DEVs for years that RK needs a nerf and for months that blue hunters need a fix for barrage. If they just reduce RK/Hunter dps, you'd have no problem with Rend anymore, right?
    We dont know what the future brings. No one knows the next raid. Balance work is announced. Please dont ask the devs to redo the broken state that Rend was at 105.
    But they broke it from one way, take all to another take nearly none.
    they forget to scale the cham^p in general same for the captains.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    But they broke it from one way, take all to another take nearly none.
    they forget to scale the cham^p in general same for the captains.
    Well... isn't that the right approach when you start scaling that you just scale up whats weak and let whats already very strong at the level it is?
    In the end, things might end up balanced. Or you just change something more.
    And damage is scaled for champ and cappy. Mainstat goes up. Which it doesnt for LM or guards shieldrank etc.

    I just dont get the point in "this is OP, make it better!"
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Well... isn't that the right approach when you start scaling that you just scale up whats weak and let whats already very strong at the level it is?
    In the end, things might end up balanced. Or you just change something more.
    And damage is scaled for champ and cappy. Mainstat goes up. Which it doesnt for LM or guards shieldrank etc.
    Yeah dps but the rest not, Inc heal not might out of the yellow line not etc. For chamomile.
    And cappies I won't discuss in the detail in a champ thread but there is some bit scaled too

  12. #12
    Champions Rend Armor: 10,848
    RK Armor Debuff: 15%.

    10,848x100/15 (Is/off=%/100 math equation being used here)=69,893.333

    Now mob have both Armor and Physical Mit, and the Armor debuff doesn't affect Phys Mit if you reduce the mobs armor below 0. So unless they added ~56k armor alone to mobs, I don't think RK are gonna debuff armor better then Champs. Math doesn't lie.

    Edit: Corrections

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darika View Post
    Champions Rend Armor: 10,848
    RK Armor Debuff: 15%.

    10,848x100/15 (Is/off=%/100 math equation being used here)=69,893.333

    Now mob have both Armor and Physical Mit, and the Armor debuff doesn't affect Phys Mit if you reduce the mobs armor below 0. So unless they added ~56k armor alone to mobs, I don't think RK are gonna debuff armor better then Champs. Math doesn't lie.

    Edit: Corrections

    10848/0.15= 72320 not 69893.33

    t2 raid bosses might have more than 72320 armour, in that case rk is going to reduce more armour than champ.

    But yes armour value must be above 72320.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by danee593 View Post
    10848/0.15= 72320 not 69893.33

    t2 raid bosses might have more than 72320 armour, in that case rk is going to reduce more armour than champ.

    But yes armour value must be above 72320.
    That is over the Heavy Armor cap, I don't believe they have ever had mob mitigations as high (except for special mitigations against a specific damage type) as a maxed out heavy class.
    [

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeA View Post
    That is over the Heavy Armor cap, I don't believe they have ever had mob mitigations as high (except for special mitigations against a specific damage type) as a maxed out heavy class.
    http://dadislotroguides.com/u21-mordor-stat-caps/

    77,840 heavy t2 cap

  16. #16
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    rks can reduce 11676 armour value if fighting against heavy t2

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by danee593 View Post
    The problem is that champs won't get invite to the new raid coming with u22, you need more mit essences than any other dps class, flurry didn't scale you need more crit essences than any other dps class, you need an absurd amount of finesse because phys class, we are not getting tact mit with vitality. Yes we can aoe but rks and wardens can do it as well.

    Rks can reduce armour way better than we can atm, they can aoe, can achieve a higher mastery and won't get as many partials as we would, while having 2 in combat rez.

    Champs were getting a spot on raids mainly because of rend now what they have to offer to the group?
    The champion with the Mordor sees its limits.

    I galley as no one to take 1 mobs camp 115 avec "signature"

    I followed a Hunter for the same camp the mpbs do not have the time to touch it's one shot on one shot.

    What passages with "fumerolles" in the middle of lava fields to-5000 morale by tick, a developer to tried to spent with a cac? " I doubt it.

    I demand not only the self damage King champion remotely but I find that all classes should have equal opportunities to carry out a mission in different ways.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by averchar View Post
    The champion with the Mordor sees its limits.

    I galley as no one to take 1 mobs camp 115 avec "signature"

    I followed a Hunter for the same camp the mpbs do not have the time to touch it's one shot on one shot.

    What passages with "fumerolles" in the middle of lava fields to-5000 morale by tick, a developer to tried to spent with a cac? " I doubt it.

    I demand not only the self damage King champion remotely but I find that all classes should have equal opportunities to carry out a mission in different ways.
    Not sure if I understand what you want to say (I´m no native english speaker), but am I right that you think that champions are too weak for Mordor?
    If that is the case I have to strongly disagree. We might not kill one mob as fast as a hunter, but using the right trait setup (stating in yellow for maximum AOE and going down in red at least up to Killing Spree for the self heal after killing a mob) and with some improvement in gear we can breeze through a bunch of mobs and kill them all at once while almost never getting into real danger of being killed because of the insane self heals from Killing Spree (average of 2-3k HPS, much higher in short fights with many small mobs). Of course too many signature mobs at once will still kill you, but in most cases this situation is avoidable.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaijian View Post
    Not sure if I understand what you want to say (I´m no native english speaker), but am I right that you think that champions are too weak for Mordor?
    If that is the case I have to strongly disagree. We might not kill one mob as fast as a hunter, but using the right trait setup (stating in yellow for maximum AOE and going down in red at least up to Killing Spree for the self heal after killing a mob) and with some improvement in gear we can breeze through a bunch of mobs and kill them all at once while almost never getting into real danger of being killed because of the insane self heals from Killing Spree (average of 2-3k HPS, much higher in short fights with many small mobs). Of course too many signature mobs at once will still kill you, but in most cases this situation is avoidable.
    He does not say champs are weak, but we can see their weakness (melee).
    And that hunters nuke them down before a chamo can lend a single hit.
    And all other disadvantages from melees.

    Ranged classes needs some kind of nerf, at least for landscape. Something like higher ranged avoidance / mits, that they need this time longer melee needs to run to the targets.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    He does not say champs are weak, but we can see their weakness (melee).
    And that hunters nuke them down before a chamo can lend a single hit.
    And all other disadvantages from melees.

    Ranged classes needs some kind of nerf, at least for landscape. Something like higher ranged avoidance / mits, that they need this time longer melee needs to run to the targets.
    As I already said, a champion might not kill one landscape mob as fast as a hunter, but you can round up a bunch of mobs and kill them all at once, being faster in total than a hunter killing them one after another. Using the above mentioned yellow-red-hybrid setup, you will often be at nearly full health after a fight against 4-6 mobs - more if they are not all signature. If you like fighting them one on one more, you are also able to nearly one or two shot many non signature mobs - if your hits do crit - if not, their morale bar doesn´t even move, but that is almost the same for hunters.
    From what I hear from talking with my kinmates, champion in Mordor is (at least against landscape mobs) as strong as if not stronger (read: fast and hard to kill) than a hunter or almost every other class (not sure about wardens).
    I really don´t see a reason for nerving hunters or making their lifes harder. If anything needs to be changed it is an increase to the damage output of some other classes (I´m looking at you captain and guardian!).

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schaijian View Post
    As I already said, a champion might not kill one landscape mob as fast as a hunter, but you can round up a bunch of mobs and kill them all at once, being faster in total than a hunter killing them one after another. Using the above mentioned yellow-red-hybrid setup, you will often be at nearly full health after a fight against 4-6 mobs - more if they are not all signature. If you like fighting them one on one more, you are also able to nearly one or two shot many non signature mobs - if your hits do crit - if not, their morale bar doesn´t even move, but that is almost the same for hunters.
    From what I hear from talking with my kinmates, champion in Mordor is (at least against landscape mobs) as strong as if not stronger (read: fast and hard to kill) than a hunter or almost every other class (not sure about wardens).
    I really don´t see a reason for nerving hunters or making their lifes harder. If anything needs to be changed it is an increase to the damage output of some other classes (I´m looking at you captain and guardian!).
    So you've to have 4-6 mops to do the same dps as hunters. This is wrong in average you've fight against 3. So vs three the dps has to be the same as hunters stdps.
    The minority of fights has more than 3 or you've to precollect your targets, which costs time and lowers the dps
    So with dps vs three on champs =stdps on hunters we've a balanced state. Vs less hunters win vs more champs win.
    In the average they would be equal.
    They changed the system and buff the mops that we don't have one shot preys anymore. And now hunters do it again, running one shoting through the landscape.
    This shows for me hunters are to strong..
    And don't come with the argument they will lost their dps in longer fights. No they don't, if played good. They won't get problems with focus and for the power we've lms. So they're able to keep up their dps. It's not just burst
    So we need a change in this point, nerfing hunters, not my primary choice or add something like ranged protection(additional (higher as normal) mits and/or avoidances)

 

 

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