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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Partial Block/Parry/Evade

    As it is in game at the moment, partial block/parry/evade chances are unaffected by finesse levels. As a result, classes that have to go through all 3 checks suffer dps loss compared to other dps classes.

    For example, classes such as champ, captain, and reaver have to go through partial block, partial parry, and partial evade checks in order to land any attack fully. In order to land a critical or devastating hit, you have to avoid getting partially b/p/e. As a result, fighting against something with a combined 50% partial b/p/e on those classes, would result in a 50% reduction in attacks landed if facing one's opponent excluding bleeds, resulting in a massive dps loss for those classes. In PVE, this isn't a huge deal, as most of the time the tank can position so that physical damage dealers will only have to deal with partial evades. However, in PvP, this hurts classes that have to go through all 3 avoidance checks while benefitting others that do not go through partials at all (LM, RK, Mini, Warg *on its most damaging skills*, Weaver, Defiler, and Warleader).

    One potential solution is to give finesse the ability to lower partial avoidances, at least to an extent.

    As it stands, partial avoidances gimp physical dps classes while having no impact on tactical classes. Thoughts?
    Eredor-Champion, Ereworn-Minstrel, Ereshorn-Runekeeper, Eresworn-Hunter, Eremourn-Burglar, Erehorn-Captain, Erelorn-Warden, Eretorn-Lore-Master, Erescorn-Guardian... And Erecorn-Master Farmer

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by dselden View Post
    As it is in game at the moment, partial block/parry/evade chances are unaffected by finesse levels. As a result, classes that have to go through all 3 checks suffer dps loss compared to other dps classes.

    For example, classes such as champ, captain, and reaver have to go through partial block, partial parry, and partial evade checks in order to land any attack fully. In order to land a critical or devastating hit, you have to avoid getting partially b/p/e. As a result, fighting against something with a combined 50% partial b/p/e on those classes, would result in a 50% reduction in attacks landed if facing one's opponent excluding bleeds, resulting in a massive dps loss for those classes. In PVE, this isn't a huge deal, as most of the time the tank can position so that physical damage dealers will only have to deal with partial evades. However, in PvP, this hurts classes that have to go through all 3 avoidance checks while benefitting others that do not go through partials at all (LM, RK, Mini, Warg *on its most damaging skills*, Weaver, Defiler, and Warleader).

    One potential solution is to give finesse the ability to lower partial avoidances, at least to an extent.

    As it stands, partial avoidances gimp physical dps classes while having no impact on tactical classes. Thoughts?
    They should add partial resistance so the tac classes have the same problem as physicals.
    Just adding the reduction of partials with finesse, will just lead to a enorm need of finesse for physicals whci tacticals don´t need.
    Or change finesse to an avoidancepentrating ability. e.g. with 20k finesses you penetrate 10k of the avoidances, this will reduce the fullchance and the partialchance for each hit and in addition it reduced the mitigated dmg of partials.
    >But anyway the current state is a bad one.

  3. #3
    Most design elements in this game blatantly favor ranged/tacticals over melee. How many years now have we seen each successive update/content boost introduce a host of mechanics designed to punish pure melee classes? The Devs openly stated around the time of the BPE change that they do not like avoidances in MMOs because it's "too RNG-like."

    I've had lengthy discussions about this with other longtime community members. Most are convinced this was and continues to be done purposefully to promote sales of the RK and warden.
    Last edited by Hurtful; Jul 17 2017 at 08:30 PM.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Hurtful View Post
    Most design elements in this game blatantly favor ranged/tacticals over melee. [...]

    I've had lengthy discussions about this with other longtime community members. Most are convinced this was and continues to be done purposefully to promote sales of the RK and warden.
    But Wardens are melee and get B/P/E'ed all the time...?
    Dagoreth (Warden) and Belechannas (Lore-master) of Arkenstone

    < No Dorfs >
    Fighting the Dorf menace to Middle Earth since 2008

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    But Wardens are melee and get B/P/E'ed all the time...?
    Wardens are a bit of a unique situation with regards to that point of my post, more than capable of standing in anti-melee mechanics due to very potent self-heals.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD2 View Post
    But Wardens are melee and get B/P/E'ed all the time...?
    Most dps of wardens are dots and they´re caused still after a partial event. So they lost something of the initial dmg but the mainsource remains.
    This is why we need partial resistance that every dot can be partial resisted, cause full resists are set to zero.
    or a system in which initialdmg-classes donßt have a disadvantage as I explained above with avoidance pentrations as hunters get with their legacies

  7. #7

    Damage differentiated instead?

    In other games the melee disadvantage(melee is always tougher) is fixed by simply having melee attacks deal more damage, so the total damage in a 2 minute bossfigth is approximately the same for turret ranged dps as for melee (jumping around to avoid boss mechs). Not sure if that fix is easier or better than a b/p/e fix though.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tombpyre View Post
    In other games the melee disadvantage(melee is always tougher) is fixed by simply having melee attacks deal more damage, so the total damage in a 2 minute bossfigth is approximately the same for turret ranged dps as for melee (jumping around to avoid boss mechs). Not sure if that fix is easier or better than a b/p/e fix though.
    Differentiaded dmg would be more difficult to realize.
    you must claculate how much is the reduction with a partial + how much is the chance, then just calculate only evades or bp too. in anyway champs will get punish, cause they get the aggro minimum once in a fight.
    It would be much easier to pentrate avoidances or include partial resists.
    or minimum would be calculate crit afterwards so that at least a partial hit could be critical, this takes the most of the dmg.
    or that crits/devasted can´t be avoided. I mean hey I make a nice/critical hit how could be a critcal hit get avoided.

  9. #9
    Partials still waiting for a fix. Here are the suggestions as to how it can be fixed:

    Partial Resistance should be introduced because it is one sided nerf atm for physical classes while tactical dps classes do not suffer.
    Partial'ed attacks should still be able to crit although partially mitigated. So that it should also generate crit response events because atm champs can't get fervour, hunters can't get the focus on critical hits, burglars can't get their crit responses. All this crippling their rotation by RNG.
    And also optionally: Finesse should effect and reduce partial avoidance chances as well.

    Loshelin-Warden | Barage-Hunter | Firasion-RK | Barashor-Guardian / Craxerr-Warg
    Leader of Raging Raiders | ragingraiders.shivtr.com
    Arkenstone's Original Challenger of Gothmog 09/17/16

  10. #10
    I like the above. I would like to see Finesse be able to counter 100% of Full BPE, and then maybe be able to reduce Partials by 50% maximum. This would help a lot.

  11. #11
    Speaking from the perspective as a hunter main, critical chance is at the center of my class' mechanic and effectiveness. Getting your crits denied by partial avoids I can do little about (given that so far the ranged skill evade/block rating bypass legacy has not been scaled to lvl 115 values), means my class is not properly playable. I would love to get the tools to fix that, even if it means it'll come at a mastery or morale cost.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by mattspencer View Post
    I like the above. I would like to see Finesse be able to counter 100% of Full BPE, and then maybe be able to reduce Partials by 50% maximum. This would help a lot.
    I just want to be clear that I am saying Partials should be able to be reduced to 50% (or something reasonable, maybe 100% but steep diminishing returns) of what they currently are at. So if you get partialed 20% of the time, it could go to 10% or even less. Partials would also be able to crit and give crit reactions. This combined with tactical classes being resisted / partial resisted would help balance things out.

  13. #13
    This is one of the biggest issues I have with the combat system. I don't like finesse in general, but as it is here, it shouldn't favor tactical classes so heavily over physical classes. The fact that the burglar is a crit gated class is often overlooked.
    I get that finesse is one of their ways to make scaled difficulty content without too much efford. Getting physical and tactical on even ground and doing some fine tuning on content scaling would be much appreciated. For example: add special abilities or frequency for higher difficulty bosses/mobs instead of making em harder to hit. This would also value a player who is able to react and move over a player who is just good at dealing dmg because he is a tactical class.
    Burglar since day 1.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by gorma_eu View Post
    This is one of the biggest issues I have with the combat system. I don't like finesse in general, but as it is here, it shouldn't favor tactical classes so heavily over physical classes. The fact that the burglar is a crit gated class is often overlooked.
    I get that finesse is one of their ways to make scaled difficulty content without too much efford. Getting physical and tactical on even ground and doing some fine tuning on content scaling would be much appreciated. For example: add special abilities or frequency for higher difficulty bosses/mobs instead of making em harder to hit. This would also value a player who is able to react and move over a player who is just good at dealing dmg because he is a tactical class.
    The system with the bosses works, the only problem is that physicals are really limited in their actions, not only that htey have partial avoids which reduce their dmg. each partial is a sure non-crit, which take nearly each physical class down, burgs lost their events, hunter focusgeneration and champs the same with favour, as you said
    with two simple steps they could balance the system to a fgair status for all.
    1. add partial resist, that the dmg of tacticals is reduced too.
    2. change the order of events. first roll the crit and if we´ve a critevent skip the rolls of avoids.

 

 

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