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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storyoftheghost View Post
    How about a persistent and dynamic battle that anyone could join at will. The Black Gate would make a good example.

    Let's say a 3-man team could hold the ground in front of the gate, with a variable stream of mobs always headed their way. Low percent chance of looting anything of notable value.

    It might take a 6-man team to move just inside the gate and handle a greater stream of enemy. Tweaked percent chance of looting anything great.

    A raid could push well inside Mordor. As real estate is cleared, unique crafting elements could be harvested, unique pieces of gear could be found in lootable chests, etc. A kin may want to hold the enemy at bay while harvesters defend/work the land for extended periods of time.

    Perhaps pushing far enough towards Mount Doom would gain the party access to dungeons or other side quests. But if too many leave the front lines to attend to side quests, their escape route may collapse behind them.

    As the raid loses steam, the bubble they've created would pop and the push would begin again from outside the gate.

    It would be lovely to have this as a non-layered, non-instanced scenario, where we could feel the entire community working together. If the tech isn't there, instances would still be fun. There would just need to be a persistent PUG instance always running so all could join (and drop out of) at will.
    Nice, but who is going to stay behind to hold the gate and benefit nothing from it, while the others are looting everything inside? You?

    I like the idea, though. It does sound like something MMOs were invented for.

  2. #27
    What should replace grind?

    In a word: sandbox.

    It can be just as much of a timesink (and revenue generator), but you have a lot more fun while you're doing it.
    Thurallor, Warden of Landroval

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Thats all true. But if level doesnt raise with expansions, there shouldnt be levels at all. What is it good for to have levels, if everything stays the same forever? I'd be fine with both options: not having levels and any other type of progression or raising them every now and then. Suddenly stopping at lvl105 doesnt make sense. imo, it would be better for an mmorpg with interesting story to not have levels, as its better for discovery, if you can go whereever you want, but thats just my opinion. for mmorpgs that have progression as their main objective, obviously there should be resets every now and then. I just dont see this in case of lotro.
    The problem with resets is that I'm not sure how many times a person can endure that. I know my enthusiasm got about halved with every reset and I eventually ended up not doing anything anymore after Pelennor. I saw people quit with every reset and the only people that stayed are the ones not very pre-occupied with endgame grinds. Now, I'm trying to be excited about Mordor because I kind of hope it will bring back my enthusiasm to play, but deep down I think I might just be waiting for a "permission" to leave for greener pastures and that "permission" can be the insurmountable grind Mordor presents to my many toons.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Joetzim View Post
    The problem with resets is that I'm not sure how many times a person can endure that. I know my enthusiasm got about halved with every reset and I eventually ended up not doing anything anymore after Pelennor. I saw people quit with every reset and the only people that stayed are the ones not very pre-occupied with endgame grinds. Now, I'm trying to be excited about Mordor because I kind of hope it will bring back my enthusiasm to play, but deep down I think I might just be waiting for a "permission" to leave for greener pastures and that "permission" can be the insurmountable grind Mordor presents to my many toons.
    Well... I, too, started to only be interested in things that dont reset some years ago. Today, I'll just do normal quests and sometimes some dailies, but not really farm any endgame stuff at all. When I get endgame stuff, I just sell it, as gold doesnt get reset that much... So all I really care for is virtues, stattomes, gold, LI stuff. nonLI equipment, most of my toons still wear DolAmroth stuff as thats still good enough for everything but t2raid...
    However, there either is nothing to reset (as nothing progresses) or you need resets regularly or strong DR on all formulas. Otherwise, noone will ever catch up to the hard core player and 'normal' or 'bad' players will left behind with no chance to succeed in anything. The 'normal' and 'bad' players however are clearly a majority and SSG cant want to piss them off that much Therefore they will just go on with resets every now and then. They wont change basic systems after using them for ten years.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishgood View Post
    I don't mind the grind - its the RNG I hate.

    If I know I have to do an instance 20 times to get the tokens to barter for a piece of gear, I'm happy with that. What I hate is when someone does one run and get an item, when someone else can do it a hundred times and gets zip.
    This

  6. #31
    I think the 85 endgame content in Riders of Rohan was a great example of how end-game should be. The Hytbold quests allow solo players to do daily quests to rebuild a town and get good armor/cool house decorations as a result, and then the conclusion closed the loop on the ongoing non-epic Rohan storyline. There's certainly grind, but there was enough variety in the dailies that you could do combat, fishing, dexterity, fedex, etc. as you liked.

    The other thing I liked about 85 was the warbands, and in particular Bugud (raid warband) being so close to Snowbourne. All it would take is someone to say "bug is up" on world chat, and every 85 in Snowbourn was jumping on their war steed to take him on. There was always a feeling of community in that region, and the isolated locations of other roaming bosses/warbands makes this harder to find now.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oelle View Post
    Well... I, too, started to only be interested in things that dont reset some years ago. Today, I'll just do normal quests and sometimes some dailies, but not really farm any endgame stuff at all. When I get endgame stuff, I just sell it, as gold doesnt get reset that much... So all I really care for is virtues, stattomes, gold, LI stuff. nonLI equipment, most of my toons still wear DolAmroth stuff as thats still good enough for everything but t2raid...
    However, there either is nothing to reset (as nothing progresses) or you need resets regularly or strong DR on all formulas. Otherwise, noone will ever catch up to the hard core player and 'normal' or 'bad' players will left behind with no chance to succeed in anything. The 'normal' and 'bad' players however are clearly a majority and SSG cant want to piss them off that much Therefore they will just go on with resets every now and then. They wont change basic systems after using them for ten years.
    Well, I wouldn't mind some degree of diminishing returns on legacy tiers, as I'm sure they will get increased by a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by MadGonzo
    I think the 85 endgame content in Riders of Rohan was a great example of how end-game should be. The Hytbold quests allow solo players to do daily quests to rebuild a town and get good armor/cool house decorations as a result, and then the conclusion closed the loop on the ongoing non-epic Rohan storyline. There's certainly grind, but there was enough variety in the dailies that you could do combat, fishing, dexterity, fedex, etc. as you liked.

    The other thing I liked about 85 was the warbands, and in particular Bugud (raid warband) being so close to Snowbourne. All it would take is someone to say "bug is up" on world chat, and every 85 in Snowbourn was jumping on their war steed to take him on. There was always a feeling of community in that region, and the isolated locations of other roaming bosses/warbands makes this harder to find now.
    It's hard to deny that RoR had a well-designed endgame. I totally agree with you on all accounts here and I, too, enjoyed RoR a lot. It felt whole with everything fitting the picture. Admittedly, the raids were lackluster, but I even enjoyed BfE a lot...

  8. #33
    Options for less grind, but more play:

    Kinda like old arcade game high score lists:
    Make some individual, fellowship, and raid quests where -sure you get cool rewards- but there is also a difficult scoring component with LOTS of different categories.

    You run the quest, then they post scores for those quests, and we can all see the top 100
    • who's the fastest
    • who's got the most kills
    • who had the biggest crit
    • who has the most rez's
    • who died the most
    • who finished challenge X, Y, or Z
    • who survived the longest
    • who caused the most structural damage
    • who saved the most NPC's
    • who completed all categories above a certain threshold
    • who completed the quest with a [butter knife] or other lame plot-added weapon
    • who defeated the toughest monster
    • etc...

    You can have individual scores, group scores, kin scores, give away cool kin rep + items for being in the top 10 on something, etc...

    This way, grind is more about prestige than just progressing.

    Also, as we move into Mordor, it might be fun have a few top 100 Server lists like
    • who has the most toons at the cap,
    • who has completed the most quests this week
    • who done the most raids this week
    • who has completed the most deeds
    • who has the most overall rep
    • various completionist and collection ranks
    • etc...
    Last edited by MagicVoice; Jun 19 2017 at 10:14 PM.

  9. #34

    New race / class

    Obviously a new race / class (I hear race is on the way) makes us all want to run one through the game. I mean getting to the cap is one thing. That only became my focus because of the terrible LI system, and I wanted to stop throwing away LI's. I just like cruising through (perhaps "cruising' is not what we're able to do at present) -ahem- crawling through the game.

    I think LOTRO is waaay too grindy for what it is. I mean the gear you get isn't even that good (Ooo, this will make me do 0.5% more damage). I'm a five year player. I play a little after work and on weekends --mostly solo. Aaand I have only one toon at the cap, and that's a Hunter, because of the terrible travel woes. I would be happy finishing Mordor with my hunter, then trying to run other characters through the game. I suspect that I won't have time for that, because --too damn grindy.

    This game has TONS of content. Let it stand on its own. Don't make it harder to finish than it already is.

    I would be happier with two or three toons running through Gondor right now. So --I vote to cut grindy elements (deeds, LI's, travel --especially travel on the epic quest line) by at least 1/2, and let people just enjoy the game. If it gets more grindy, then sure, I'll probably finish the epic quest line with my hunter, but after that, I'll probably just be done. If it gets less grindy, then I'll probably run toons on LOTRO til they close down the servers.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RANA01340 View Post
    You're missing my point.

    A) Any difficult solo content in this game is either trivial for some classes or impossible for others. Wardens/Champs constantly faceroll Roving Threats solo, while classes like Mini/RK/Hunter/Burg/Captain/LM/Bear/Guard either can't sponge enough damage, don't have sustained DPS output to kill things before their mechanics go off, or take FOREVER to kill things. The difficulty level in this game has NEVER been balanced around solo content. Ever. Skill has nothing to do with the fact that Wardens and Champs are extremely good at soloing things while other classes lack the combined survivability and dps. Designing a solo instance in LOTRO that's challenging for all classes is impossible. All the trash in Skoi has been soloed by a champ, and I'm fairly certain a warden could solo the boss.

    B) Solo content serves a function, which is to gear the player base that isn't getting gear through other means. Anyone who's interested in challenging encounters is already getting their gear through T2C group content. They don't need challenging solo content. Flower/Crafted pieces are for people who don't want to do any of that stuff, so why force them into poorly designed, "challenging" solo encounters?

    C) In almost every LOTRO update we've had either 1/3 or more of best in slot gear come from landscape. Get used to at least some of the best gear coming from stuff like flower picking and crafting. As long as a greater portion comes from running raids/group content, that's good enough.
    a) no everyclass can do everything. just a question of the build, equip and skill. Well some needs longer but this is all.
    b) that´s why the fist stages are easy. and to them who don´t want to do it, there is always a skirmish camp with gear in it and questrewards. which are weaker but good enough for landscape.
    c) and this is totally wrong. best gear has to be behind the hardest content(raid t2c). everything else has to be weaker. landscape rewards even have to be weaker than t2 instance rewards.
    the harder the content the better the rewards have to be and vice versa.

  11. #36

    Make XP and super-rare items the grind

    Diablo 2 did this.

    You could totally finish Diablo 2 in hell mode with a well-built lvl 80 toon. I never even made it to lvl 90 (serious xp grind), but I loved playing. Gear was awesome, but there was always something even more awesome and rare.

    And you could run through the whole game in a day or two. Diablo was very popular. People didn't kill Diablo, and then go, "boring," and leave. We kept playing because --fun game! That's what I want more of in LOTRO.

    So if there *have* to be grindy elements,

    1. I'd rather see it on the XP side (harder to get to the cap).
    .....Now --this presupposes that there's not a whole string of nigh-essential new gear that nobody can get because it's only for capped players. That would piss off everybody. Gear sucks bad enough in this game.
    .....And --this presupposes that you can play through the whole game without needing to be an uber-awesome capped player. But those at the cap would love being uber-awesome, of course.

    2. Super rare gear is always cool. I like the idea that I can have awesome gear, and be awesome and competitive, but there is always more awesomeness out there.
    .....I've been particularly disappointed with gear-sets and LI's buffing skills that *everyone* thinks are worthless no matter which line you're running. Toss those out. Make awesome gear awesome. I'd rather have the headache of choosing 3 legacies from a list of 20 awesome ones, than choosing 6 from a random pile of trash. Random pile of trash does not feel "legendary" at all...
    .....So if LI legacies got better, then you'd just be grinding for more awesomeness rather than trying to get an LI which doesn't suck.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I'd hate to see all the landscape start to feel more like an instance than general questing.
    I would agree with this except that for the most part, instance difficulty is broken. Solo landscape (particularly in SoA and MoM) actually used to be much more difficult than soloing many of the 3 and 6 man instances are now (with a group, they aren't even close). My - far from perfectly geared - champ was soloing Fornost Earth in about 10 minutes. My cappy can solo it too, but of course takes longer.

    In other words, I'd like to see landscape difficulty back to SoA levels. Or just finally give me and those like me a 50, 60 or 65 legacy server and I'll stop caring about the "main" game.


    Quote Originally Posted by RANA01340 View Post
    Designing a solo instance in LOTRO that's challenging for all classes is impossible.
    This is probably true now given how badly the trait trees (and later imbuement) broke classes and combat - but it wasn't always so. An excellent example was the Mirk instance Death from Below. While sadly a joke now, it was very tough and very well designed at the 65 cap. Before bloated dps and back when CC was actually useful.


    Quote Originally Posted by MagicVoice View Post
    Super rare gear is always cool. I like the idea that I can have awesome gear, and be awesome and competitive, but there is always more awesomeness out there.
    It's a shame more people don't agree. It seems that for far too long, too many people have been irrationally triggered by the oh so evil RNG that they've convinced Turbine/SSG to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Rare drops have been a staple of this type of game for a reason - fun.

    And yes, I definitely agree the LI legacies ought to be redesigned in such a way that all are useful, allowing for difficulty decisions and driving creativity in coming up with different builds. Unfortunately, I cannot see this being at all possible for SSG to do.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mukor View Post
    a) no everyclass can do everything. just a question of the build, equip and skill. Well some needs longer but this is all.
    b) that´s why the fist stages are easy. and to them who don´t want to do it, there is always a skirmish camp with gear in it and questrewards. which are weaker but good enough for landscape.
    c) and this is totally wrong. best gear has to be behind the hardest content(raid t2c). everything else has to be weaker. landscape rewards even have to be weaker than t2 instance rewards.
    the harder the content the better the rewards have to be and vice versa.
    Haha, you're really good at arguing without a clue as to what game balance/class balance is. The only difficult solo instance we've ever had was death from below, and yes, there were some classes that had a lot more trouble with that solo than others. There's a reason they haven't really done anything like that. There's also a reason they gave up on difficult versions of solo Big Battles after HD, some classes could deal with the mechanics waaay better than others. If you put in mechanics like Big Battles, classes with the combination of utility and burst dps like Mini will shine while sustained dps classes will have tons of issues completing the content. However, if it's sustained mob killing, the heavy classes with sustained AoE dps will murder everything while low dps and light armour burst dps classes will be absolutely miserable. Ever seen how fast a guard or captain can kill multiple elites/elite masters? Not fast at all.

    And no. It's split, and always has been. So unless it "has to" even though it hasn't been this entire time, you're just talking out your ###.

    I get that you guys want some way to alleviate the grind in this game. The past update was pretty crazy in terms of adding grind after grind that replaced gear. I think I went through five jewelry pieces in every slot but pocket. However, this is a 10 year old game that's pretty set in its ways, with a dev team that does not have the resources of a fresh game. They don't have the time/money to create complex systems anymore, really. And IMO, if they tried, it would be HD all over again and this time the game wouldn't pull through. Really, the best we can hope for is a return to SoA/MoM/RoI style of instance cluster releases with some interesting landscape content mixed in. SSG has pretty much done this already with 105, so that's good enough for me. There could be some revamping of some already existing content like Roving Threats, which would help spread the grind out across multiple platforms, but maybe that'll happen later.

    It's far more important to create a system with good itemization for Mordor than it is to introduce some new gimmick. We're already getting our rep farms and our 3/6 man T2C instances, as well as the raid later on. Eventually, those are going to feel grindy. I just hope that SSG decides to do a maximum of 2 gear replacements over the course of Mordor, rather than the 5 or so we had with 105. Having several sets of "best" gear over the course of a single level cap can get pretty demoralizing.
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  14. #39
    I think the grey quest colour should turn to Green, and you get at least some XP from going back and doing quests, not sure if scaling to level is possible, but the point is on some toons I still have Bree quests to do or other area, and if you have just grinded to end level on one toon, and then you have several others to do, it would be more interesting to go back and do some old content first for a break and get some rewards. The fact is, if the game is fun, people will play, but the grind of playing the same content on different toons repeatedly is not fun and becomes boring, hence why many quit at end game. Give us rewards for going back and cleaning up old content we may have skipped, for instance, whenever questing in Evendim or Trollshaws you get sent to other regions/areas, and have to make a choice to go to these and quest thus greying out Evendim, or stay in Evendim to finish all content thus greying out the next quest sequence line you were sent on. And no, I am not one of these players who want to stop the XP reward, I am saying I want to get XP reward for all choices of areas where I choose to quest and the sequence, that is what would make it fun for me.

  15. #40
    Grind is good and necessary in an MMO(RPG), problem is the presentation & implementation.

    LOTRO tries very hard to control player activity, that is why we have over 100 different currencies. (You need to do a very specific task to get a specific currency).


    Looking at TSW (The Secret World), the grind for high level equipment is much bigger, but it doesen't matter (to a certain point) WHAT are you diong.
    I think it was a year or so ago, all currencies in TSW got cut down to only two: Black Bullions and Marks of Favor. BB are earnt for doing any quest (almost all quest are repeatable an a 8-72 hour cd), higher level quest rewarding more, doing PvP, doing any dungeon (normal, elite or Nightmare; higher difficult rewards more) and doing raids (normal, elite, nightmare). MoF are rewarded for weekly challenges (solo, PvP, groupplay; very small amoung), Nightmare Dungeons and Raids (higher tier raids giving more).
    Endgame gear has 10 Tiers, the base items and the wirst 4 upgrades are buyable with only BB. Upgrade 5 needs special items, which drops in normal mode raids or can be bought for BB+MoF, upgrade 6+7 are bought with BB + MoF; upgrade 8 needs elite Raid drops (i am not sure if you can buy them by now), upgrade 9 is MoF + BB and upgrade 10 is nightmare raid only drop. [Someone once did the math, if a player just stay in the starting area, it would take him 4 years of daily playing to get his equipment to the forth upgrade.]
    What i really want to say: the grind feels less then a grind there, because you get the necessary currencies to get your items just by playing any content, the 10.4 level equipment is enough for the normal mode raids, the hardes landscape zones (Lairs) and the nightmare dungeons. If you want, you can solo a really long time and make the challenges to get to 10.7, by doining Dungeons and raids you would be much faster, and if you diong the harder content, you get slightly better equipment (i think each upgrade was 5% more stats).
    You can play your way, new zones (quest), raids and dongeons will reward more Currencies, but you are not forced to grind there, if you dislike it, you will just slow yourself down. And want everyou got an items, it´s not wasted, you allways upgrade, new content just frees up/making lower upgrads easier to obtain and adds new highest tiers upgradelevels.


    To a degree something like this would work for lotro too. But it would take to much effort for such a small dev crew. Reducing currencies to solo, group and raid (like it was once tried with marks, medaillions and sigils), hide certain upgrades/reciptes behind reputation and deeds (landscape, dungeon/rais T1/T2), so players need to do the content once, but there after they can decide, if they want to run e.g. one additional T2c raid to get a new item or doing dailiy quest for 20 days. Without the T2c raid they would be blocked from the final upgrade.
    After all, mostly like it is now, but without flowerpicking as the only place to start und without the feeling to start over again and again (like throwing away the Tier 7 & 8 essences after the ithilian ones came out).


    sorry for my bad english, i hopefully could put my (twisted) minds in a half understandable way into this wall of text.
    Das Ubrot - füttert Enten auch unter Wasser.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubrot View Post
    Grind is good and necessary in an MMO(RPG), problem is the presentation & implementation.

    LOTRO tries very hard to control player activity, that is why we have over 100 different currencies. (You need to do a very specific task to get a specific currency).


    Looking at TSW (The Secret World), the grind for high level equipment is much bigger, but it doesen't matter (to a certain point) WHAT are you diong.
    I think it was a year or so ago, all currencies in TSW got cut down to only two: Black Bullions and Marks of Favor. BB are earnt for doing any quest (almost all quest are repeatable an a 8-72 hour cd), higher level quest rewarding more, doing PvP, doing any dungeon (normal, elite or Nightmare; higher difficult rewards more) and doing raids (normal, elite, nightmare). MoF are rewarded for weekly challenges (solo, PvP, groupplay; very small amoung), Nightmare Dungeons and Raids (higher tier raids giving more).
    Endgame gear has 10 Tiers, the base items and the wirst 4 upgrades are buyable with only BB. Upgrade 5 needs special items, which drops in normal mode raids or can be bought for BB+MoF, upgrade 6+7 are bought with BB + MoF; upgrade 8 needs elite Raid drops (i am not sure if you can buy them by now), upgrade 9 is MoF + BB and upgrade 10 is nightmare raid only drop. [Someone once did the math, if a player just stay in the starting area, it would take him 4 years of daily playing to get his equipment to the forth upgrade.]
    What i really want to say: the grind feels less then a grind there, because you get the necessary currencies to get your items just by playing any content, the 10.4 level equipment is enough for the normal mode raids, the hardes landscape zones (Lairs) and the nightmare dungeons. If you want, you can solo a really long time and make the challenges to get to 10.7, by doining Dungeons and raids you would be much faster, and if you diong the harder content, you get slightly better equipment (i think each upgrade was 5% more stats).
    You can play your way, new zones (quest), raids and dongeons will reward more Currencies, but you are not forced to grind there, if you dislike it, you will just slow yourself down. And want everyou got an items, it´s not wasted, you allways upgrade, new content just frees up/making lower upgrads easier to obtain and adds new highest tiers upgradelevels.


    To a degree something like this would work for lotro too. But it would take to much effort for such a small dev crew. Reducing currencies to solo, group and raid (like it was once tried with marks, medaillions and sigils), hide certain upgrades/reciptes behind reputation and deeds (landscape, dungeon/rais T1/T2), so players need to do the content once, but there after they can decide, if they want to run e.g. one additional T2c raid to get a new item or doing dailiy quest for 20 days. Without the T2c raid they would be blocked from the final upgrade.
    After all, mostly like it is now, but without flowerpicking as the only place to start und without the feeling to start over again and again (like throwing away the Tier 7 & 8 essences after the ithilian ones came out).


    sorry for my bad english, i hopefully could put my (twisted) minds in a half understandable way into this wall of text.
    TSW is not the best example due to the Aegis system. Also with the the game being replaced by a relaunch means that TSW will be a ghost town.

    Anyhow, the best mmos hide grind behind engaging gameplay, something that lotto has consistently failed to do. With SSG showing no signs of departing from the Turbine/WB template, the best way to experience grind-free mmos is to play something else.
    It must be your PC...

  17. #42
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    One of the things I liked that FI brought back was making people do old instances.

    LOTRO has so many instances (including skirmishes and BBs) that it's a shame people only run old ones for deeds on alts.

    So I would like some kind of daily drop from each instance. Some kind of token, with a limit of X per each instance daily.

    Example:
    You do Assault At Dawn T1 3-man, 1 token.
    In that day, no more tokens from Assault At Dawn T1 3-man, but you can do T2 or 12-man to get more.
    T3 and T2Cs should drop more tokens to make people run them, the amount would take in consideration the dificulty and group size (so not 1->2->3).

    In order to make the late game instances (aka Mordor instances) a priority for the barterer we would need these daily tokens and Mordor tokens.
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  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post
    TSW is not the best example due to the Aegis system. Also with the the game being replaced by a relaunch means that TSW will be a ghost town.

    Anyhow, the best mmos hide grind behind engaging gameplay, something that lotto has consistently failed to do. With SSG showing no signs of departing from the Turbine/WB template, the best way to experience grind-free mmos is to play something else.
    I nether touched the subject of AEGIS (or the augmentations system) nor did i suggest to anyone to leave LOTRO for TSW ! So why does any of this make my example bad?
    I think the grind in TSW very engaging, because every player can choose his own poision. MMOs without grind are only in a complete sandbox possible, and mostly there is a hidden grind, it´s just not spelled out directly. In "theme park" MMOs grind is simple necessary, because a) players burn faster thru the content than new can be created and b) players that run out of things to do stop playing and so also paying and they may not be coming back when new content is ready. So grind is there to keep players busy and stay hooked to the game.
    Das Ubrot - füttert Enten auch unter Wasser.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by RANA01340 View Post
    You're missing my point.

    A) Any difficult solo content in this game is either trivial for some classes or impossible for others. Wardens/Champs constantly faceroll Roving Threats solo, while classes like Mini/RK/Hunter/Burg/Captain/LM/Bear/Guard either can't sponge enough damage, don't have sustained DPS output to kill things before their mechanics go off, or take FOREVER to kill things. The difficulty level in this game has NEVER been balanced around solo content. Ever. Skill has nothing to do with the fact that Wardens and Champs are extremely good at soloing things while other classes lack the combined survivability and dps. Designing a solo instance in LOTRO that's challenging for all classes is impossible. All the trash in Skoi has been soloed by a champ, and I'm fairly certain a warden could solo the boss.
    I have killed many RTs solo on mns, rk and burg. One of funniest was mumakil in south ithilien that I though was warband and just soloed on burg on my feet. Shrug. Minstrel is extremely good solo class for certain encounters same on burg. RK is really good if fight can be done within few minutes, after that it falls apart. Minstrel can do skoironk 6 man alone no problem actually one of easiest classes to do that instance solo as 6 man versio.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    377
    I actually don't mind the LI grind since imbuement because it feels like I never lose any progress - I just keep moving forward. My main problem with other gear/essence grinds is that it eventually becomes worthless. Spend your time grinding essence back when level 100 was cap, then when it went up to 105 all your stuff became worthless and you have to start over with the new 105 stuff. I don't like that. I hate the idea of having to get rid of / sell / destroy old gear to get new ones. It gives me a big "what's the point?" feeling. I'd be happy if I could keep the same gear but level it up somehow.

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    1,731
    Quote Originally Posted by RANA01340 View Post
    Haha, you're really good at arguing without a clue as to what game balance/class balance is. The only difficult solo instance we've ever had was death from below, and yes, there were some classes that had a lot more trouble with that solo than others. There's a reason they haven't really done anything like that. There's also a reason they gave up on difficult versions of solo Big Battles after HD, some classes could deal with the mechanics waaay better than others. If you put in mechanics like Big Battles, classes with the combination of utility and burst dps like Mini will shine while sustained dps classes will have tons of issues completing the content. However, if it's sustained mob killing, the heavy classes with sustained AoE dps will murder everything while low dps and light armour burst dps classes will be absolutely miserable. Ever seen how fast a guard or captain can kill multiple elites/elite masters? Not fast at all.
    For sure a guard or captain will need longer than a champ, but they will arrive the boss in the first try.
    And all classes have their opportuniy to success. you jsut have to know how to play it.
    Some will need more time to complete the dungeon ok, but all will be able to do it.
    All classes hvae their survivalbilty to that. may it dps to kill them before they kill you, the classic defense, ccs or heals.
    With this every player just has to practice with his class to take the best out of it. just experiemence with your build and gear.
    and it shouldn´t be like the bbs with sidequest just a slaydungeon and this you can do with nearly no dps if you know how to survive. what every class can do as mentioned already.

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,731
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripsis View Post
    I actually don't mind the LI grind since imbuement because it feels like I never lose any progress - I just keep moving forward. My main problem with other gear/essence grinds is that it eventually becomes worthless. Spend your time grinding essence back when level 100 was cap, then when it went up to 105 all your stuff became worthless and you have to start over with the new 105 stuff. I don't like that. I hate the idea of having to get rid of / sell / destroy old gear to get new ones. It gives me a big "what's the point?" feeling. I'd be happy if I could keep the same gear but level it up somehow.
    It just depends what you want to do.
    ´for your example 100->105 every class was able to make at least the 3-men pelennor t2c with their lvl 100 top-equip.
    With this you get your firts lvl 105 items and better stats so you were able to to the 6-men t2c. with all of this you could do t2c raid and get this gear.
    if you jsut want to do landscape and t1 lvl 100 gear is tcomplety enough
    So it should work.
    For Mordor we will see with the new needed stats and so on. but in anyway new levelcontent should mean that you need the new gear for it.
    With some way to get. landscaperewards for t1instances->t1gear/last t2raid gear for t2 instances/t1 raids->t2/t1riad gear for t2riads.

  23. #48
    Who says there can't be grind? The problem is there are *many* grinds. Too many grinds. When the game launched, the only real grind was virtues. It's overwhelming now to the point where most people have no interest.
    Team Milt.

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,880
    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post
    With SSG showing no signs of departing from the Turbine/WB template, the best way to experience grind-free mmos is to play something else.
    We will see. I consider Dagorlad still as Turbine/WB content (too far into development cycle), but Mordor is definitely SSG.
    In german the literal translation of Mt Doom is "mountain of destiny". I guess the Mordor expansion will be that kind of mountain that decides the fate of the game.

  25. #50
    to the idea of challenging solo content, till now, the funnyest thing I saw was in Guild Wars (1), where at reaching levelcap, at one point, to advance in the story, you had to play an instance, where there was only one enemy that completely mirrored your build and had slightly better stats than the player to overcome that its just AI.
    The idea for that was really cool and it was kinda funny to see, how many people werent able to win that fight, where the AI just randomly used skills.
    However, it was easy exploitable by just equipping skills that harm yourself and doing nothing in that fight... but afaik, we dont have such skills in lotro
    Diskutierer, Fragenbeantworter, Twinker, Händler, Handwerker und Anführer der 'Gemeinschaft der freien Völker' auf Belegaer.
    Deutsche Guides für nahezu alles, was Casuals interessieren könnte, gibts hier: http://gdfv.forumo.de/guides-f24/

 

 
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