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  1. #301
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    I think the flaw in your calculation is in how you're computing the contribution of the additional focus. IMHO the additional focus means more barrage tier 3. More focus means you're using QS less, which means it's a smaller part of total dps. I don't see how your calculations factor in less QS and more barrage tier 3.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    I think the flaw in your calculation is in how you're computing the contribution of the additional focus. IMHO the additional focus means more barrage tier 3. More focus means you're using QS less, which means it's a smaller part of total dps. I don't see how your calculations factor in less QS and more barrage tier 3.
    QS should always be used to replace Pen Shot, which is possible 99% of the time. Barrage every 1s should remain untouched no matter how many QS you end up using. Replacing Barrage with QS is serious rotation flaw.

    With good enough focus management, the extra focus from QS has absolutly no connection to Barrage.
    Last edited by Farasilion; Sep 16 2017 at 01:16 PM.

    Man cenuva métim' andúnë.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farasilion View Post
    QS should always be used to replace Pen Shot, which is possible 99% of the time. Barrage every 1s should remain untouched no matter how many QS you end up using. Replacing Barrage with QS is serious rotation flaw.

    With good enough focus management, the extra focus from QS has absolutly no connection to Barrage.
    I disagree with your logic. We're implicitly assuming that, due to focus, you're forced to use an induction skill without a proc that eliminates the induction - that's the only time you'd consider using quick shot. Gaining additional focus from a QS proc reduces the need to use that induction quite so often. During the time that you'd otherwise being waiting for a QS induction you'd be doing barrage 3 alternating with pen shot or other, as appropriate (e.g. blood arrow). So I do not agree that the QS induction is a substitute for pen shot only. Your formula is predicated on the assumption that the QS induction is in place of pen shot only, but in reality it's taking up time that would otherwise be used for a barrage 3 - pen shot combo. The correct increment is that of time, not of a skill "slot" in the rotation. More focus gain means less time spent on the QS induction, which means more barrage 3 - pen shot, not just more pen shot.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    I disagree with your logic. We're implicitly assuming that, due to focus, you're forced to use an induction skill without a proc that eliminates the induction - that's the only time you'd consider using quick shot. Gaining additional focus from a QS proc reduces the need to use that induction quite so often. During the time that you'd otherwise being waiting for a QS induction you'd be doing barrage 3 alternating with pen shot or other, as appropriate (e.g. blood arrow). So I do not agree that the QS induction is a substitute for pen shot only. Your formula is predicated on the assumption that the QS induction is in place of pen shot only, but in reality it's taking up time that would otherwise be used for a barrage 3 - pen shot combo. The correct increment is that of time, not of a skill "slot" in the rotation. More focus gain means less time spent on the QS induction, which means more barrage 3 - pen shot, not just more pen shot.
    May I suggest finding a dummy, open CA, trait Quick Draw and Rapid Fire, disable auto-attacks, then spam Barrage - Pen Shot - Barrage - Pen Shot - Barrage... as mad as you can possibly get while staring at timer and skill counts on CA for 15s.
    Then spam Barrage - QS - Barrage - QS - Barrage... as fast as you can while staring at timer and skill counts on CA for another 15s.
    At last, takes into account that in the last 15s, you have done more QS than what one usually does in a minute of normal parsing, with or without the extra focus from QS legacy(s).

    Also, keep in mind it is 12.5% chance for 1 focus. You will need an average of 16 QS to possibly get enough extra pips (2 minimal) for replacing one QS with focus skill, compared to without the legacy.

    Man cenuva métim' andúnë.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farasilion View Post
    May I suggest finding a dummy, open CA, trait Quick Draw and Rapid Fire, disable auto-attacks, then spam Barrage - Pen Shot - Barrage - Pen Shot - Barrage... as mad as you can possibly get while staring at timer and skill counts on CA for 15s.
    Then spam Barrage - QS - Barrage - QS - Barrage... as fast as you can while staring at timer and skill counts on CA for another 15s.
    At last, takes into account that in the last 15s, you have done more QS than what one usually does in a minute of normal parsing, with or without the extra focus from QS legacy(s).

    Also, keep in mind it is 12.5% chance for 1 focus. You will need an average of 16 QS to possibly get enough extra pips (2 minimal) for replacing one QS with focus skill, compared to without the legacy.
    I don't see the point in doing what you suggest. Yes, I agree that there is only an increased probability of getting extra focus. The point is that calculating the value of that additional focus needs to be based on the time saved before requiring another induction, not on "replacing" a pen shot in the rotation.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    I don't see the point in doing what you suggest. Yes, I agree that there is only an increased probability of getting extra focus. The point is that calculating the value of that additional focus needs to be based on the time saved before requiring another induction, not on "replacing" a pen shot in the rotation.
    Your "point" is based on the assumption that a 0.8s QS takes *significantly* longer to execute than a PS, which is false. The "fast" skills are not as fast as you *imagine* them to be.

    Seriously, test out whatever is in your mind first before posting arguements based on them.

    Man cenuva métim' andúnë.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Farasilion View Post
    Your "point" is based on the assumption that a 0.8s QS takes *significantly* longer to execute than a PS, which is false. The "fast" skills are not as fast as you *imagine* them to be.

    Seriously, test out whatever is in your mind first before posting arguements based on them.
    I suggest you use combatanalysis, parse in a way you should be parsing, then click on 'training-dummy'in the left window and look at the size of the bar that says 'quick shot'.

  8. #308
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    Tried some parses on Training dummy (non-BR server) after settling on a build.... The vid is ruined thanks to OBS studio, but still :/

    115 Hunter, Beorning, RK

    105 Champ, Guardian, Minstrel, Cappy, LM, Warden, RK

  9. #309
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    One of my previous attempts at Galtrev Dummy which has much better video quality, but more amateur rotation (recorded 2 weeks ago)

    115 Hunter, Beorning, RK

    105 Champ, Guardian, Minstrel, Cappy, LM, Warden, RK

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farasilion View Post
    Your "point" is based on the assumption that a 0.8s QS takes *significantly* longer to execute than a PS, which is false. The "fast" skills are not as fast as you *imagine* them to be.

    Seriously, test out whatever is in your mind first before posting arguements based on them.
    Please quote where I used the term "significantly". TBH you've simply become defensive because I pointed out the flaw in your argument. I simply pointed out, correctly, that gaining more focus simply delays having to use an induction to gain focus again. So the "value" of additional focus gained should be measured in terms of the dps of barrage 3 - pen shot over that increment of time, rather than as you did basing it only on replacing a pen shot in the rotation. Again, the unit of interest here is time, not a "spot" in the rotation. The question of whether or not that is "significant" is meaningless out of context. The meaningful question is how it compares to the additional damage contributed by the QS damage legacy.

    So basically the argument is that you're going to spam barrage 3 - pen shot (other things will come in such as blood arrow, but let's just keep the notation simple for now) until you run out of focus, at which point you'll use an induction to gain focus. Obviously you'll use another induction if you have a proc to eliminate the induction, but assuming you actually need to wait for the induction, you'll choose QS. So the choice is, do you want a legacy to get a bit more damage from QS? Or do you want to increase the crit for QS? Obviously both will tend to increase QS damage, but clearly QS damage will increase it by more. However, by increasing QS crit, you also increase the probability of triggering procs, and gaining more focus. So really the only point we appear to disagree on is how to determine the contribution of that additional focus to total damage. Overall, more focus means more barrage 3 - pen shot and less QS induction, even though we are perhaps talking about a fraction of a second difference related to any one use of QS. However, the total contribution of QS to overall dps is relatively small, so IMHO it won't take much increase in barrage 3 - pen shot use to outweigh any additional damage being contributed by QS damage legacy.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by Theomur View Post
    I suggest you use combatanalysis, parse in a way you should be parsing, then click on 'training-dummy'in the left window and look at the size of the bar that says 'quick shot'.
    I suggest you read this post again, especially the last sentence.

    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    Please quote where I used the term "significantly". TBH you've simply become defensive because I pointed out the flaw in your argument. I simply pointed out, correctly, that gaining more focus simply delays having to use an induction to gain focus again. So the "value" of additional focus gained should be measured in terms of the dps of barrage 3 - pen shot over that increment of time, rather than as you did basing it only on replacing a pen shot in the rotation. Again, the unit of interest here is time, not a "spot" in the rotation. The question of whether or not that is "significant" is meaningless out of context. The meaningful question is how it compares to the additional damage contributed by the QS damage legacy.

    So basically the argument is that you're going to spam barrage 3 - pen shot (other things will come in such as blood arrow, but let's just keep the notation simple for now) until you run out of focus, at which point you'll use an induction to gain focus. Obviously you'll use another induction if you have a proc to eliminate the induction, but assuming you actually need to wait for the induction, you'll choose QS. So the choice is, do you want a legacy to get a bit more damage from QS? Or do you want to increase the crit for QS? Obviously both will tend to increase QS damage, but clearly QS damage will increase it by more. However, by increasing QS crit, you also increase the probability of triggering procs, and gaining more focus. So really the only point we appear to disagree on is how to determine the contribution of that additional focus to total damage. Overall, more focus means more barrage 3 - pen shot and less QS induction, even though we are perhaps talking about a fraction of a second difference related to any one use of QS. However, the total contribution of QS to overall dps is relatively small, so IMHO it won't take much increase in barrage 3 - pen shot use to outweigh any additional damage being contributed by QS damage legacy.
    Right.

    Without auto-attacks:
    Barrage - QS spam = 15 attacks in 15s, 8 barrage 7 QS;
    Barrage - PS spam = 16 attacks in 15s, 8 barrage 8 PS;
    Assume Barrage and PS has same animation time = 15/16 = 0.9375s
    Total difference = 1 attack => execution time difference between QS and PS = ~0.134s;

    On average using around 5 QS per min when using procs on SB and doing Barbed every 10s without RF/focus pot/IC => need about 1.5min of constant DPSing under prefect conditions to gain enough time difference for +1 focus skill.

    Since you mentioned procs... it reminds me that QS has 20% chance to make insta cast SB with +30% dmg.

    Man cenuva métim' andúnë.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf2x View Post
    Tried some parses on Training dummy (non-BR server) after settling on a build.... The vid is ruined thanks to OBS studio, but still :/
    Yeah OBS is rly ###### imo. For recording, if you have a modern NVidia card, I'd just use Geforce Experience's recording feature, it's the best quality you'll get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Farasilion View Post
    I suggest you read this post again, especially the last sentence.
    Perhaps include in that reasoning that you have the induction bow damage and induction bow crit legacies (which you do, right?), since those are crucial to the trade-off.

    Here's a nuance. The equation is not universal; the closer to cap your mastery gets, the more in favor of qs crit chance/magnitude it becomes and less in favor of qs dmg. I tend to be ~370% from mastery in group content for most of the parse. But this is further influenced by time brackets within the parses when Burn Hot will be up (+69.2% dmg) and when Strength Stance will be up (+49.2% and whatever Fire Mastery is contributed from RF). So that will change the story.

    Then secondly is something that becomes very difficult to calculate. A tactic that I really like is one where I can keep focus up by stacking all that I can in my build, and it is 3-pronged. Firstly: focus generation from precision stance, fleetness, deadly precision and focus cost reduction from strong draw. Secondly, your set of CD's with Rapid Fire, focus pot and IC. Thirdly: stacking procs (volley, exsanguinate, S&T and perhaps insta-HS) which replace penshot where possible. So that leaves me with building QS in such a way that I will never have to return to it after using it: increasing its focus generation (and I went for the middle road, because strength QS slow is an even slightly better legacy for focus).

    The balance is so fragile here that even just the choice to trait Exanguinate or not could possibly mean all the difference for which QS legacy will minmax that DPS.
    Last edited by Theomur; Sep 17 2017 at 01:23 PM.

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Theomur View Post
    Perhaps include in that reasoning that you have the induction bow damage and induction bow crit legacies (which you do, right?), since those are crucial to the trade-off.

    Here's a nuance. The equation is not universal; the closer to cap your mastery gets, the more in favor of qs crit chance/magnitude it becomes and less in favor of qs dmg. I tend to be ~370% from mastery in group content for most of the parse. But this is further influenced by time brackets within the parses when Burn Hot will be up (+69.2% dmg) and when Strength Stance will be up (+49.2% and whatever Fire Mastery is contributed from RF). So that will change the story.

    Then secondly is something that becomes very difficult to calculate. A tactic that I really like is one where I can keep focus up by stacking all that I can in my build, and it is 3-pronged. Firstly: focus generation from precision stance, fleetness, deadly precision and focus cost reduction from strong draw. Secondly, your set of CD's with Rapid Fire, focus pot and IC. Thirdly: stacking procs (volley, exsanguinate, S&T and perhaps insta-HS) which replace penshot where possible. So that leaves me with building QS in such a way that I will never have to return to it after using it: increasing its focus generation (and I went for the middle road, because strength QS slow is an even slightly better legacy for focus).

    The balance is so fragile here that even just the choice to trait Exanguinate or not could possibly mean all the difference for which QS legacy will minmax that DPS.


    Top: with QS dmg, bottom: without QS dmg (same bow); mastery levels as in chat;
    The actual tooltip dmg increase% ((QS with leg - QS without leg)/QS without leg), left to right: 20.25723%, 20.26190%, 20.23381%;
    Because tooltip numbers do get round up when the game caculates them, the differences observed are most likely caused by that, therefore mastery level (and +dmg% buffs that work as +mastery%, e.g BH/Str stance etc) probably have no influence at all on the effects of legacy (as in, the increase% when taking QS dmg without legacy as 100% is constant).

    As for crit/crit mag, it always works as: actual damage = tooltip damage * [no-crit% + crit% * (100% + total-crit-mag%) + dev% * (100% + total-dev-mag%)]. Again, the change in actual damage due to crit/crit mag changes, presented as increase% of tooltip damage , is not affected by mastery level.

    Did some math a while back regarding the damage% on Barrage when bow not enquipped (so it shows the percentage instead of actual numbers), turned out the fomula for that dmg% is: dmg% = skill-buff% * (100% + mastery%) + (100% + mastery%) * (100% + traits-dmg%) + barrage-legacy% * (100% + mastery%) = (100% + mastery%) * [skill-buff% + (100% + traits-dmg%) + barrage-legacy%]. But eh obv can't check out the legacies on the bow...

    tbh, parses vary by over 10% just due luck, so eh each to his/her own on these trivial (<0.5%) stuffs.

    Man cenuva métim' andúnë.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farasilion View Post
    ....
    Right.

    Without auto-attacks:
    Barrage - QS spam = 15 attacks in 15s, 8 barrage 7 QS;
    Barrage - PS spam = 16 attacks in 15s, 8 barrage 8 PS;
    Assume Barrage and PS has same animation time = 15/16 = 0.9375s
    Total difference = 1 attack => execution time difference between QS and PS = ~0.134s;

    On average using around 5 QS per min when using procs on SB and doing Barbed every 10s without RF/focus pot/IC => need about 1.5min of constant DPSing under prefect conditions to gain enough time difference for +1 focus skill.

    Since you mentioned procs... it reminds me that QS has 20% chance to make insta cast SB with +30% dmg.
    Hmmm, I must be doing something wrong, because without a proc to eliminate the induction I'm finding a much bigger difference between QS and PS than you're showing (i.e. one fewer QS over 15 sec).

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Farasilion View Post
    Top: with QS dmg, bottom: without QS dmg (same bow); mastery levels as in chat;
    I am surprised... what...? skill dmg legacies work as a factor and not as an addition to the mastery %? ffs... I just never stop learning with this game...
    Last edited by Theomur; Sep 17 2017 at 06:20 PM.

 

 
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