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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Belgium
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    600
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    I've not seen yellow minstrels main heal any raid encounters without a heavy reliance on revealing mark, considering their healing output is significantly lower than even Beornings I have my doubts about any encounter being done purely with yellow minis and no revealing mark. Admittedly most I know tend to leave healing entirely to the revealing mark and just go for the 20k+ DPS that they can pull on the boss whilst maintaining anthems.
    In 99% of raid encounters you will have revealing mark though.
    Besides that i believe the healing of yellow minis is potent enough for the current content (just look at nazguls T2C being 6-manned with yellow mini heals).
    MacSwaggis (formerly MacHaggis) R12 HNT , HeavyHaggis R10 GRD, Scrubtain R7 CPT
    Haggisbash R8 RVR , Haggisgash R7 WL

  2. #52
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Missouri
    Posts
    448
    Cappy healing is fine, it's just not one of those things where you can spam one skill and win. It's close but not there requires correct gear and a little no how. Idk how to do it but i heard it's doable. I don't even think i play captain anymore...idk
    High Treason

    |Cuath R11 Captain|
    |Original Challenger of Gothmog|

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by SpicyMacHaggis View Post
    In 99% of raid encounters you will have revealing mark though.
    Exactly, I sincerely doubt that many, if any, group has done purely yellow minstrels without revealing mark because there's simply no reason to do so. Can't exactly say "Yellow minis heal fine without revealing mark" when revealing mark is used in every case. Any situation where revealing mark is used drastically reduces the effort of the minstrel since revealing mark alone can keep all of the DPS alive. The whole "If you can heal the tank, you can heal the encounter" thing is true because revealing mark is covering just about everyone other than the tank.


    Quote Originally Posted by SpicyMacHaggis View Post
    Besides that i believe the healing of yellow minis is potent enough for the current content (just look at nazguls T2C being 6-manned with yellow mini heals).
    With revealing mark.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    With revealing mark.
    Conclusion, blue minstrel can't heal the raid. Buff blue minstrel.

  5. #55
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    England
    Posts
    197
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    With revealing mark.
    When we did this we used revealing mark, but it really wasn't required. If you check this video you can see revealing mark is not used: https://youtu.be/LgiVngySZXQ

    We also did some attempts with telling mark instead, we found that we were fine for heals and didn't need the extra DPS, whether we were successful was really just rng.

    Nazguls isn't exactly a boss with high damage to anyone though, if you don't let the crawlers kill anyone...
    Del || Main: Deldolan - Captain
    Alts: Delusional - Minstrel, Deloflyn - Lore-master, Delude - Champion, Deludest - Rune-keeper, Deluder - Guardian

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Conclusion, blue minstrel can't heal the raid. Buff blue minstrel.
    That's a terrible argument. Blue minstrel healing is about equal to revealing mark (greater tank/support healing but less healing for DPS) whilst yellow minstrel healing is far inferior. Drawing equivalence between those examples is nonsensical. Revealing mark carries the healing for half the group, for most parts of the raid you can probably just skip having any healer whatsoever for the DPS side and let them coast on revealing mark. Slapping a yellow minstrel on top of that and stating it "healed the encounter" fine is belittling just how much revealing mark contributes. With a blue minstrel you have a level of sheer output that parallels revealing mark but with greater focus on the members of the group taking the most damage, it's an entirely different situation.

    Yellow minstrel doesn't have anywhere near the consistency of AoE healing as either revealing mark or a blue minstrel, at the end of the day the traitline is most comparable to yellow Beorning (although even weaker as a healer still).
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    That's a terrible argument. Blue minstrel healing is about equal to revealing mark (greater tank/support healing but less healing for DPS) whilst yellow minstrel healing is far inferior. Drawing equivalence between those examples is nonsensical. Revealing mark carries the healing for half the group, for most parts of the raid you can probably just skip having any healer whatsoever for the DPS side and let them coast on revealing mark. Slapping a yellow minstrel on top of that and stating it "healed the encounter" fine is belittling just how much revealing mark contributes. With a blue minstrel you have a level of sheer output that parallels revealing mark but with greater focus on the members of the group taking the most damage, it's an entirely different situation.

    Yellow minstrel doesn't have anywhere near the consistency of AoE healing as either revealing mark or a blue minstrel, at the end of the day the traitline is most comparable to yellow Beorning (although even weaker as a healer still).
    Question is still why you need that much AoE healing when you don't... If RM heals you for 6k hps great but if you take just 800 tps what's the use of it? Yellow minstrel easily heals that taken damage. It's understandable that people take the easiest route but fact still is need of AoE healing is greatly overestimated, especially one where you need to get morale to 100% within 1s. Again as said, this new age of healers need to put their big boy pants on.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Willj119 View Post
    When we did this we used revealing mark, but it really wasn't required. If you check this video you can see revealing mark is not used: https://youtu.be/LgiVngySZXQ
    That video has a pretty high uptime on natures light, difficult to tell just how much as the cuts get a bit annoying in that regard. It also required a fair bit of kiting as the yellow minstrel struggled to keep up with the healing required on the tanks. It's certainly impressive and well done but even then, it's one of 6 encounters and potentially the one with the lowest healing requirement. You still can't generalise it as a competent healer.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    Question is still why you need that much AoE healing when you don't... If RM heals you for 6k hps great but if you take just 800 tps what's the use of it? Yellow minstrel easily heals that taken damage. It's understandable that people take the easiest route but fact still is need of AoE healing is greatly overestimated, especially one where you need to get morale to 100% within 1s. Again as said, this new age of healers need to put their big boy pants on.
    Go ahead, put your big boy pants on and heal some raid bosses without revealing mark utilising only yellow minstrels. I'm not saying that blue mini/revealing mark level of healing is necessary, I'm suggesting that perhaps without these crutches you'll find that yellow minstrel sincerely struggles to work on its own. Haggis and Will have offered examples where the bulk of the work is done by a yellow minstrel for one encounter, you have offered nothing concrete.

    Yellow minstrels do get used frequently in the raid but in 95% of circumstances they are not relied on as the primary source of healing.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Go ahead, put your big boy pants on and heal some raid bosses without revealing mark utilising only yellow minstrels. I'm not saying that blue mini/revealing mark level of healing is necessary, I'm suggesting that perhaps without these crutches you'll find that yellow minstrel sincerely struggles to work on its own. Haggis and Will have offered examples where the bulk of the work is done by a yellow minstrel for one encounter, you have offered nothing concrete.

    Yellow minstrels do get used frequently in the raid but in 95% of circumstances they are not relied on as the primary source of healing.
    Amen sir. Well said.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    Go ahead, put your big boy pants on and heal some raid bosses without revealing mark utilising only yellow minstrels. I'm not saying that blue mini/revealing mark level of healing is necessary, I'm suggesting that perhaps without these crutches you'll find that yellow minstrel sincerely struggles to work on its own. Haggis and Will have offered examples where the bulk of the work is done by a yellow minstrel for one encounter, you have offered nothing concrete.

    Yellow minstrels do get used frequently in the raid but in 95% of circumstances they are not relied on as the primary source of healing.
    I dont really need to give examples when I have healed just fine since 95 level in yellow. I dont really care if someone doesnt believe me on forums when I have been just fine for several years. Like I said, all yellow minstrels know whats the limit on healing with the line and it usually is can you keep yourself and tank alive. After that everything else is fine as well, be it with captain or not. People who have started after RoI know nothing about struggling with healing so different perspectives.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by siipperi View Post
    People who have started after RoI know nothing about struggling with healing so different perspectives.
    LOL, sound like the old man "get off my lawn kid".

    Please save us from "old school" is better than the "new school" attitude. The game has changed and telling "people" they have no perspective because they did not play before RoI is just silly.

    Its like the old NBA players saying, "the new players could not play with the old players, the old players will beat them easy". Even though the new players are 7 footers shooting 3s, are bigger, faster, stronger.

    I guess your right, the lotro player base never evolved, the new players cannot play back than, a good player now would be nothing back than. Shame on them for not playing this game back than!

    Pff, Spare us.

  13. #63
    From a PvP perspective, I personally think captain only lacks some single target burst healing. This could be very easily fixed by making Words of Courage crit more often, or have a mechanic that makes it a guaranteed crit if certain conditions are met (Gallant Display at 3 stacks, perhaps?). On top of that, Reform the Lines is literally useless. Especially when you get stunned during the animation, and it substracts 30% health, but does not apply the heal.

    The problem isn't that blue captains are bad, it's that healing minstrels are stupidly overpowered. The moment they made Bolster Courage an AoE heal was the moment they made every other healing class inferior. No class should have a spammable AoE heal that is as strong as Bolster Courage. All in all, blue captains have their flaws, but ultimately, the issue lies with minstrels being too strong.

    Reform the Lines could be changed into the following:
    2 minute cool down
    For 15 seconds, the cool down on Rallying Cry is reduced by 5 seconds and always heals as if a Defeat Response is present. Every time Rallying Cry heals a target, the remaining cool down on Valiant Strike is reduced by 3 seconds.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  14. #64
    You are right, Captain needs good single target healing and a few saves. And you are right about Minstrel, it irritates me to the bones, one class has so many tools ....and the rest is strugling. The worst thing is devs don't want to listen, don't want to fix the broken trait line system, while in some cases some fixes are easy.

    1) Make Words of Courage a god and big single target instant heal. We have enough hots.
    2) Move SoD and IHW into Blue line, or just make them general class abilities.
    3) Give us a single target reactive heal. You cast it on the target, it lasts for 30 seconds and has several (5-6) charges. When the target is hit a charge is consumed and the target is healed.
    4) Make Reform the Lines a group reactive. The same as above but places several (8-10) charges on everyone in the group.

  15. #65
    Found a post by RockX, an ex-developer now. December 2013 ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by RockX View Post
    I'm also rather fond of reactive healing. It's certainly something worth considering for the future.
    4 years have passed, I think it's time to add it.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    You are right, Captain needs good single target healing and a few saves. And you are right about Minstrel, it irritates me to the bones, one class has so many tools ....and the rest is strugling. The worst thing is devs don't want to listen, don't want to fix the broken trait line system, while in some cases some fixes are easy.
    Yeah that is the sad truth. If the Bolster AoE heal was simply replaces my something else, and the Cry of the Chorus reset trait would have a longer internal cool down, minstrel would be pretty much fixed.

    1) Make Words of Courage a god and big single target instant heal. We have enough hots.
    2) Move SoD and IHW into Blue line, or just make them general class abilities.
    3) Give us a single target reactive heal. You cast it on the target, it lasts for 30 seconds and has several (5-6) charges. When the target is hit a charge is consumed and the target is healed.
    4) Make Reform the Lines a group reactive. The same as above but places several (8-10) charges on everyone in the group.
    1) If the straight up healing was just buffed, the crits would be insane and probably too strong. Something like +20% crit chance per Gallant Display stack would tackle the issue, I think.
    2) Giving SotD to every captain spec would make things incredibly messy. That is to say, overpowered. If it lasted a very short time in any line other than yellow, I suppose it'd be fine.
    3) I don't think that very much fits the captain class fantasy
    4) I'd personally prefer what I suggested in my earlier post.

    Overall, I don't think much work is needed at all to make blue captains viable again. One or two of the above would suffice. All four would make captains far too strong.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  17. #67
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    England
    Posts
    197
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    From a PvP perspective, I personally think captain only lacks some single target burst healing. This could be very easily fixed by making Words of Courage crit more often, or have a mechanic that makes it a guaranteed crit if certain conditions are met (Gallant Display at 3 stacks, perhaps?). On top of that, Reform the Lines is literally useless. Especially when you get stunned during the animation, and it substracts 30% health, but does not apply the heal.

    The problem isn't that blue captains are bad, it's that healing minstrels are stupidly overpowered. The moment they made Bolster Courage an AoE heal was the moment they made every other healing class inferior. No class should have a spammable AoE heal that is as strong as Bolster Courage. All in all, blue captains have their flaws, but ultimately, the issue lies with minstrels being too strong.

    Reform the Lines could be changed into the following:
    2 minute cool down
    For 15 seconds, the cool down on Rallying Cry is reduced by 5 seconds and always heals as if a Defeat Response is present. Every time Rallying Cry heals a target, the remaining cool down on Valiant Strike is reduced by 3 seconds.
    This makes a lot of sense, agree with most things said here, and some interesting ideas for further development of the spec.

    One important thing to realise when comparing minstrels with captain healers is the balance between being a ranged healer and being a melee healer (to perform at optimum effectiveness). I feel this should be balanced out by minstrels lacking AoE heals when compared to the captain.

    I personally feel Minstrels are supposed to be better healers than captains - they have light armour and it is their primary role whereas captains can wear heavy armour and it is their secondary role. AoE bolser courage is a stupid idea though, it just dumbs everything down. Minstrels should be capable of regularly throwing out big ranged burst ST heals and occasionaly throwing out a big aoe heal (triumphant spirit / fellowships heart). At the moment they can just stand still and constantly throw out large aoe burst heals in the form of bolster courage.

    I don't actually think captain really needs to change, just minstrel (as you said). Yes, it does lack sigle target burst healing, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing, captain should not be able to be a main healer, and it already contributes a large amount to any group just through its IDOME / motivation buffs among many others, and can already fill a main dps support / tank role in many pve situations. That being said, there are a lot of useless traits for blue captain (as with most other specialiazations for other classes too!) which should either be rebalanced or fixed.
    Del || Main: Deldolan - Captain
    Alts: Delusional - Minstrel, Deloflyn - Lore-master, Delude - Champion, Deludest - Rune-keeper, Deluder - Guardian

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Under Bridge
    Posts
    786
    Quote Originally Posted by Arabani View Post
    Found a post by RockX, an ex-developer now. December 2013 ^^
    Nice find , i remember him , great guy and very active with the community ; d

    Quote Originally Posted by Willj119 View Post
    I personally feel Minstrels are supposed to be better healers than captains - they have light armour and it is their primary role whereas captains can wear heavy armour and it is their secondary role. AoE bolser courage is a stupid idea though, it just dumbs everything down. Minstrels should be capable of regularly throwing out big ranged burst ST heals and occasionaly throwing out a big aoe heal (triumphant spirit / fellowships heart). At the moment they can just stand still and constantly throw out large aoe burst heals in the form of bolster courage..
    Yeah , what's really ridiculous , is not the mechanic of blue AoE bolster itself , but that the splash heal is almost exactly the same as the main heal itself on EACH allied target.
    To be exact , i think it's like 95%+ ? It's funny cause the skill tooltip describes the splash heal as : '' a portion ''... Not what i had in mind when i first read that ^^
    They could nerf it to half and it would still be OP lol....
    I've actually always wondered if that splash heal was bugged and it was supposed to be split equally between all allied targets.....

    Minstrels are propably the most balanced and bug free class in Lotro , but honestly , blue bolster needs to get nerfed ... A lot.

 

 
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