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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Agreed. The content should have been designed to give a reasonable amount of reputation via lots of different avenues. For example, during questlines of the new area (eg, for hand ins, 700 host of the west rep and then choose 100 rep from a list of the other three factions), a rep item for each herbalist quest, rep items for the Host of the West dailies, a rep item per solo crafting instance, a handful of rep items per fellow crafting instance, and rep items in the boxes of FI's and in the raid chests. If rep items are to drop, it would be better to make them drop inside the instances and in a controlled manner, instead of mob kills on landscape. People in a real hurry to speed it up, could then use resets, but the rep rate would be reasonable enough for most players to just plod along without them.

    What's interesting here today though is people saying yesterday that these farms are not necessary, because there is enough rep available to get to ally - just via questing (which wasn't the case in my experience), and now they are saying, hey, these farms aren't a problem.
    Or what about simply piggybacking on the flower extract barter system they just created instead of creating an entirely new rep barter system? Simply introduce new, rare, extracts and / or require ever greater numbers of the old ones for progressively better gear. Then, take all of the time and effort expended in creating the new system and dedicate that towards performance, optimization and testing. Radical I know! Unfortunately, instead of a complete make over which is needed, there will be more bandages. In the end the exploiters will profit and the rest will have an even steeper climb. Reward the guilty and punish the honest, that was the Turbine way. Let's see if it's also the SSG way.

  2. #102
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    SSG needs to come out from hiding and level with players about their plans for the Rep Items & Lag.

    To quote Lanny Davis, "Tell the Truth, Tell it Early, Tell it All, Tell it Yourself".

    Perhaps someone should slot Honesty, find their Courage and be Forthright.
    Member of the Vocal Minority

  3. #103
    After reading this and seeing the complaints stacking to the stars, it appears that taking a break from Lotro and play other games was a good idea.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    Or what about simply piggybacking on the flower extract barter system they just created instead of creating an entirely new rep barter system? Simply introduce new, rare, extracts and / or require ever greater numbers of the old ones for progressively better gear. Then, take all of the time and effort expended in creating the new system and dedicate that towards performance, optimization and testing. Radical I know! Unfortunately, instead of a complete make over which is needed, there will be more bandages. In the end the exploiters will profit and the rest will have an even steeper climb. Reward the guilty and punish the honest, that was the Turbine way. Let's see if it's also the SSG way.
    Would you have bought it? If it were just an extension of what was already in place? I wouldn't have. A full update needs new quests, new things to do, or it is - not an update. While the idea to just expand on the Ithilien flora barter would have been ok, I imagine they avoided that because some of us have been doing Ithilien herbalist dailies on a lot of alts for quite a long time now, and the flora is bound to account. too much of a headstart maybe, but then, they did that with Old anorien, and morgul crests for recipes - so maybe not.

    Personally, I'd rather them just push out updates similar to that of Gt River, where questing in both a solo and fellowship area provides rep gated, straight forward rewards, for straight forward content, and upgrades from grouping and trading in said rewards. Nice and simple, no reinventions of any wheels, just great content, to suit all, and apt rewards for solo V group.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daenith View Post
    I've spent a few hours yesterday doing quests in the new area and can already tell that I will most likely never get even the worst of the new items. The new rep grind, this whole update is, in a single word, INSANE.

    And yet yesterday, there were folks on Landroval proudly showing off their new, fully tricked out gold jewelry. Some have said you shouldn't blame the players for gaming a flawed system; and to that I say, "why the hell not?"
    Nobody is making them do it; surely they aren't being forced or ordered to at gunpoint. Rather, they have made a conscious decision to do what they are doing and could just as easily NOT do it!

    Is the problem due to poor design? YES! Is the problem due to poor testing? YES! Was U20 implementation poorly executed? YES! But never forget it takes two to tango and the players are just as much to blame as SSG.

    It's a pile of ####. It stinks of it's own accord. The player base doesn't need to poke and stir it just to make it stink any worse.
    Don't forget that there are players out there with VIP subs running. What can they do? Continue to play older content, or roll alts, until Turbine manages to solve all those issues? They ask what they paid for. That's what making them do it.
    At this state the game is totally unplayable and its only SSG's fault. Player's did their part and paid for their subs. SSG must deliver playable content. It's their responsibility.
    I'll ask it again... SSG, for the love of god, play your own game. You'll see with your own eyes its totally skrewed. Charging LP for this update shows that you dont give a sh!t about your playerbase. Even if you given me this update for free i wouldn,t take it, at this state.
    Thorgull lvl 105 Champion - Malendar lvl 115 Warden - Estelldion lvl 101 LoreMaster - Ballduin lvl 36 Runekeeper - Nharduil lvl 17 Minstrel All on Evernight

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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    Or what about simply piggybacking on the flower extract barter system they just created instead of creating an entirely new rep barter system? Simply introduce new, rare, extracts and / or require ever greater numbers of the old ones for progressively better gear. Then, take all of the time and effort expended in creating the new system and dedicate that towards performance, optimization and testing. Radical I know! Unfortunately, instead of a complete make over which is needed, there will be more bandages. In the end the exploiters will profit and the rest will have an even steeper climb. Reward the guilty and punish the honest, that was the Turbine way. Let's see if it's also the SSG way.
    Because sadly, we live in a world where "change" is no longer (as they used to say) inevitable, "change" must occur almost continuously. It's all about the next, greatest idea; who can come up with it, develop and implement it FIRST! We've been sold on the idea that in order to succeed, whether in business, or in life, we must reinvent ourselves or the way we do business on an almost daily basis. If we don't, we are a failure.

    What fills me with wonder though, is how ancient civilizations built structures that have lasted for thousands of years; the house my great grandmother lived in was over 600 years old, and yet the greatest minds of our time can barely manage to build anything that lasts more than a 50 years.
    "It is better to be present with ten men....than absent with ten thousand"
    Daenith Erlundir ~ of Landroval
    Ranger

  7. #107
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    You know what? I am ready to sacrifice my game progress since U20 to do it all again, if SSG does some emergency downtime and puts Lang Rhuven in instanced space (max 6-man fellowships can enter, larger groups cannot be formed), and then rollbacks the game to what it was at launch of U20.

  8. #108
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    The truly sad thing about this update...I love the feel of the new areas. The world builders did an amazing job. I want to enjoy it.
    Unfortunately, SSG (Turbine) continues to be their own worst enemy--and the players end up suffering for it.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Would you have bought it? If it were just an extension of what was already in place? I wouldn't have. A full update needs new quests, new things to do, or it is - not an update....
    That's not what I meant. Of course all of the new content would be included. My point was simply to have not created the entirely new rep-barter system, but simply gated the new gear behind barter based on the existing herbalist barter system. They could have created new "extracts" that could only be obtained by in game play - quests, rare mob drops etc. But of course all the new content added - areas, mobs, quests - would all still be included.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    ...While the idea to just expand on the Ithilien flora barter would have been ok, I imagine they avoided that because some of us have been doing Ithilien herbalist dailies on a lot of alts for quite a long time now, and the flora is bound to account. too much of a headstart maybe, but then, they did that with Old anorien, and morgul crests for recipes - so maybe not...
    Even then, nothing would have prevented them from creating new extracts, which they did, including some rare ones, which they did not. The rare ones could possibly have been obtained via different methods, not just flower picking. And that would also address your "headstart" concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Personally, I'd rather them just push out updates similar to that of Gt River, where questing in both a solo and fellowship area provides rep gated, straight forward rewards, for straight forward content, and upgrades from grouping and trading in said rewards. Nice and simple, no reinventions of any wheels, just great content, to suit all, and apt rewards for solo V group.
    I think the old stuff was much better. The recent additions just seem to be getting worse, with some exceptions.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Would you have bought it? If it were just an extension of what was already in place? I wouldn't have. A full update needs new quests, new things to do, or it is - not an update. While the idea to just expand on the Ithilien flora barter would have been ok, I imagine they avoided that because some of us have been doing Ithilien herbalist dailies on a lot of alts for quite a long time now, and the flora is bound to account. too much of a headstart maybe, but then, they did that with Old anorien, and morgul crests for recipes - so maybe not.

    Personally, I'd rather them just push out updates similar to that of Gt River, where questing in both a solo and fellowship area provides rep gated, straight forward rewards, for straight forward content, and upgrades from grouping and trading in said rewards. Nice and simple, no reinventions of any wheels, just great content, to suit all, and apt rewards for solo V group.
    New quests, yes. New areas to explore, yeppers. New things to do, absolutely. A completely new Rep system, NO.
    "It is better to be present with ten men....than absent with ten thousand"
    Daenith Erlundir ~ of Landroval
    Ranger

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daenith View Post
    New quests, yes. New areas to explore, yeppers. New things to do, absolutely. A completely new Rep system, NO.
    You managed to say that so much more succinctly than I did.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daenith View Post
    New quests, yes. New areas to explore, yeppers. New things to do, absolutely. A completely new Rep system, NO.
    I'm not one who is impressed by the new rep factions - I can assure you. I don't mind that there is a new rep system, I just think it's insanely grindy, to the point, it has pushed players to opt to bring the servers to a standstill, in order to try and aleviate some of that grind. We've had rep grind before, plenty of times, and it's never triggered something of this magnitude - this one is different. It was designed to kick ### - out of the players (make it huge, and make speeding it up limited), and it does a great job of it. What SSG probably didn't bank on however is the players kicking it back as hard as they have done, but they have, and nobody can blame them for it. There is only so much "let's call their bluff" that the players will take, before they are pushed far beyond what is reasonable. I think this update just overstepped the mark, but that's just my opinion.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bucko39 View Post
    The truly sad thing about this update...I love the feel of the new areas. The world builders did an amazing job. I want to enjoy it.
    Unfortunately, SSG (Turbine) continues to be their own worst enemy--and the players end up suffering for it.
    I was thinking the same thing yesterday. I was pleasantly surprised how much I liked the new area...granted it's kinda, well rocky and desolate; but you know what, given where it is, I would have been disappointed if it wasn't. So I have no qualms about giving the world designers a hearty thumbs up!

    But for the life of me, I cannot believe U20 was beta tested and then released in the condition it was. Either the designers at SSG didn't/don't play at all, or they completely and utterly ignored the testing feedback they got from the players. Or, the players didn't really see anything glaringly wrong and their feedback was more positive, rather than overwhelmingly negative as some have alluded to. At this point, I honestly don't know who to believe.
    "It is better to be present with ten men....than absent with ten thousand"
    Daenith Erlundir ~ of Landroval
    Ranger

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daenith View Post
    I was thinking the same thing yesterday. I was pleasantly surprised how much I liked the new area...granted it's kinda, well rocky and desolate; but you know what, given where it is, I would have been disappointed if it wasn't. So I have no qualms about giving the world designers a hearty thumbs up!

    But for the life of me, I cannot believe U20 was beta tested and then released in the condition it was. Either the designers at SSG didn't/don't play at all, or they completely and utterly ignored the testing feedback they got from the players. Or, the players didn't really see anything glaringly wrong and their feedback was more positive, rather than overwhelmingly negative as some have alluded to. At this point, I honestly don't know who to believe.
    It was beta tested, and this issue didn't arise, because rep was obtained from the Rock in the tavern, so nobody had to earn it and farms didn't take place. It was obvious however that farms would take place - because, where there are rep items, on such a rep heavy update, players will seek them out. What they should have done, is push a stress test through Beta, in the fellowship area.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  15. #115
    Lol at "players trying to aleviate the grind". They are not trying to aleviate anything, just finding ways to get those shinies ASAP with least effort and possibly by piggyback riding.
    If they had enough incentive in gold or whatever loot that makes them happy, they would do those "Skoironk landscape raids" daily a year from now without a blink. If someone can spend 19 hours a day "raiding" landscape mobs, last thing they care about is the grind.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    It was beta tested, and this issue didn't arise, because rep was obtained from the Rock in the tavern, so nobody had to earn it and farms didn't take place. It was obvious however that farms would take place - because, where there are rep items, on such a rep heavy update, players will seek them out. What they should have done, is push a stress test through Beta, in the fellowship area.
    No, what they should have done is turn the "Rock" off as far as rep went and made the testers actually test how long rep took to grind. You have just confirmed my suspicions that nobody, SSG or the beta testers, actually had any idea of how much grind was going to be involved. So in fact, the new rep system was probably only tested so far as to see whether or not the mobs actually dropped items x and y. As far as any stress test goes, if the beta testers had started at zero rep, it would have only taken a short time before the farming would have commenced...and believe me, they would have gotten a stress test then.
    "It is better to be present with ten men....than absent with ten thousand"
    Daenith Erlundir ~ of Landroval
    Ranger

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madmanthief View Post
    After reading this and seeing the complaints stacking to the stars, it appears that taking a break from Lotro and play other games was a good idea.
    Heh. I previewed U20 on Bullroarer, saw this coming, and took a break from end game content. I've been galloping all over East Rohan for the last two nights on an alt. Despite being on Ark, I've got almost no lag and just the typical WS rubberbanding, which I can automatically adjust for by now.

    It's like playing another game.
    The Lag is so bad I saw Sara Oakheart outrun someone - kickman77

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  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CroKat View Post
    Lol at "players trying to aleviate the grind". They are not trying to aleviate anything, just finding ways to get those shinies ASAP with least effort and possibly by piggyback riding.
    If they had enough incentive in gold or whatever loot that makes them happy, they would do those "Skoironk landscape raids" daily a year from now without a blink. If someone can spend 19 hours a day "raiding" landscape mobs, last thing they care about is the grind.
    I'm not talking about the people that went up there and stood still for 19 hours plus. I'm talking about raid groups that went up there with the intention of clearing a group orientated camp for a rep run, and got bogged down as soon as they went through the gate. You can blame players all you like, but the bottom line is, the rep grind is what caused people to farm. They are still farming, even now - but now it's 24 man sized raid groups in solo landscape areas, which produces a whole new set of problems for people trying to quest their chosen spot.
    Treat others as you do your best pictures, and place them in their best light.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nosdracir View Post
    Heh. I previewed U20 on Bullroarer, saw this coming, and took a break from end game content. I've been galloping all over East Rohan for the last two nights on an alt. Despite being on Ark, I've got almost no lag and just the typical WS rubberbanding, which I can automatically adjust for by now.

    It's like playing another game.
    SssHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Don't let the cat outa the bag or everyone will start doing it and, BAM!!! Lagomatic! :P
    "It is better to be present with ten men....than absent with ten thousand"
    Daenith Erlundir ~ of Landroval
    Ranger

  20. #120
    Lag in Ithilien has been horrible for me. Just picking flowers takes around 20 seconds for the flower to even pop up, and then longer to even accept it. (it used to just pop up instantly)
    I'm happy they are going to address this very soon.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    It was beta tested, and this issue didn't arise, because rep was obtained from the Rock in the tavern, so nobody had to earn it and farms didn't take place. It was obvious however that farms would take place - because, where there are rep items, on such a rep heavy update, players will seek them out. What they should have done, is push a stress test through Beta, in the fellowship area.
    So actually it wasn't tested. As I've posted elsewhere, they do alpha test on the beta server and then do beta test on the live servers. Proper beta test would have had the final production version being played, and players told to go out and get as much rep as they could as quickly as possible. And THEN they would have SEEN this happening. Of course, the entire new rep barter system was a bad idea to being with. If they had simply gated the new gear behind new rare flower extracts, "testing" would only have been a question of drop rate, which hopefully they would have had experience at getting right this time. That's the problem with inventing an entirely new subsystem like this every time. It's much more work creating it, and it's always testing and performance that gets shortchanged as a result of the unnecessary drain on resources to create those new subsystems.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Would you have bought it? If it were just an extension of what was already in place? I wouldn't have. A full update needs new quests, new things to do, or it is - not an update. While the idea to just expand on the Ithilien flora barter would have been ok, I imagine they avoided that because some of us have been doing Ithilien herbalist dailies on a lot of alts for quite a long time now, and the flora is bound to account. too much of a headstart maybe, but then, they did that with Old anorien, and morgul crests for recipes - so maybe not.

    Personally, I'd rather them just push out updates similar to that of Gt River, where questing in both a solo and fellowship area provides rep gated, straight forward rewards, for straight forward content, and upgrades from grouping and trading in said rewards. Nice and simple, no reinventions of any wheels, just great content, to suit all, and apt rewards for solo V group.
    They could have avoided the whole "head start" issue by making those items rep-gated to barter for, but just keep the rep system as it has been. So you have to collect the new extracts and have kindred with the particular group to barter for the new gold goodies. I'd even go so far as to have to trade in NI Teal jewel, along with new extracts and rep, to get the new gold piece. This way you still have all the new content, a slight update to the system we had, and desirable rewards for doing it. And to top it off, as someone pointed out, this probably would have saved a lot of Dev time, and allowed them to retask some people to work on the ongoing lag issues.
    CAANJAAL - 115 HNT R7, CAANDHUIL - 115 HE CHMP, CAANAGER - 115 WRD R3, CAANJOB - 27 BRG, CAANRI - 16 GRD ---- Rangers of the West - Gladden
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  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I'm not talking about the people that went up there and stood still for 19 hours plus. I'm talking about raid groups that went up there with the intention of clearing a group orientated camp for a rep run, and got bogged down as soon as they went through the gate. You can blame players all you like, but the bottom line is, the rep grind is what caused people to farm. They are still farming, even now - but now it's 24 man sized raid groups in solo landscape areas, which produces a whole new set of problems for people trying to quest their chosen spot.
    And what kind of grind made them farm Hytbold public instances back then? Or exploit anything they can exploit just to make shortcuts and get something with least effort, possibly on afk follow.
    They would be farming whatever they can the easiest way they can, not paying scant attention to people doing quests or whoever they trample over in the process no matter the grind.


    Yes, I blame them, for being selfish and greedy and shortsighted and spoiling the game for those who play it as it was intended. I blame the company giving them free hands to be that way even more though.

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by bucko39 View Post
    And that is part of the problem.

    In what universe did standing in one spot, firing off a few skills (if you're lucky, given the lag) at face-roll mobs for 10 hours become engaging end-game content?

    And most importantly, the farming is having a direct negative affect on the game performance across the board.
    But this is no real different from LLG landscape or any other content that's been landscape focused for first tier of weapons. Of course I would like to see more emphasis on dungeon but as said you can't get best items without making multiple dungeon and raid runs. And as said, just doing "the way devs intented" by doing RTs, dailies and such, will net you reps maxed easily within a week or so. As I linked on forums I already got one rep basically maxed just by doing landscape and dailies.

    So you are basically just grinding to max reputation, which is not really any different what we did back in 2007. You still need to do dungeon and the raid or you are using worse items. Of course very good items but point still stands.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by DKenny View Post
    So actually it wasn't tested. As I've posted elsewhere, they do alpha test on the beta server and then do beta test on the live servers. Proper beta test would have had the final production version being played, and players told to go out and get as much rep as they could as quickly as possible. And THEN they would have SEEN this happening. Of course, the entire new rep barter system was a bad idea to being with. If they had simply gated the new gear behind new rare flower extracts, "testing" would only have been a question of drop rate, which hopefully they would have had experience at getting right this time. That's the problem with inventing an entirely new subsystem like this every time. It's much more work creating it, and it's always testing and performance that gets shortchanged as a result of the unnecessary drain on resources to create those new subsystems.
    IMO, this underscores a core problem of how beta testing is done, in regards to this game anyway. On BR, you get rep from a rock, buy the latest and greatest gear and essences, get all your virtues to 19 and then stroll merrily out the door to go "test".....in the absolute BEST gear there is to be had. C'mon people! This is NOT the most accurate way of benchmarking any encounter, open world, instanced or raid for that matter.

    At the very least, you should have to actually play the content as you would on the live servers, on the gear you have (or approximately) on your live toons. Then, rather than a guess or an estimation, you'd have some actual hard data to go on rather than, "encounter x" or "system y" is working as intended.
    "It is better to be present with ten men....than absent with ten thousand"
    Daenith Erlundir ~ of Landroval
    Ranger

 

 
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