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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Nonde View Post
    I agree, levelling a craft is easy mode. I am referring to guilding a craft/s. People appear to regard the rep associated with the Update 20 as onerous, but Kindred to Celebrated + 3 x 85,000 is 465,000 rep or 550,000 rep if starting with 0 Host of the West rep. The rep needed to guild just 2 crafts is 560,000 and most craft oriented players suffer OCD - Obsessive Crafting Disorder - and HAVE to guild them all despite the time and mats required to acquire the 1,960,000 rep necessary. We do need 100s of hours, many 100s of hours.
    ...Just about every single character in my kin is guilded in their craft, it does not take hours upon hours, most of us probably spent a day actually gathering the ingredients max with a few doing far less. The only time consuming part about guilding a craft is the fact that you are stuck on cooldowns. It still only takes 2 weeks of logging on, crafting rep items and then logging off. Just about every single raider has maxed their crafting for the guild relics.

    The difference between guild rep and host of the west rep (besides host of the west requiring double the rep per alt) is the fact that guild rep will always have value. This Qpack will come and go but crafting guilds will always be relevant in terms of the end-game items you can make. And yeah, 4 weeks without rep accelerators seems to be a fairly reasonable timeframe for something that you can utilise at all levels as opposed to a faction in a current end-game region which will be forgotten upon the launch of Mordor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nonde View Post
    All I'm saying is that there are many playstyles all of which require time and effort, music among them as there are some musicians who spend more than 30 hours a week developing and supporting music when all we see is the 1 hour performance that results.
    Considering that "playstyle" would be spending the majority of its time outside the game I'm not sure you can really equate it to other playstyles such as raiding, roleplaying or crafting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nonde View Post
    This update is focused on instance grinding
    This update is focused on landscape grinding, as was the update before it. The resource dungeons are not instance content. Featured instances barely meet the definition of instance content. The definition of instance content according to raiders would be much more along the lines of: "Content which requires 6 or more players to fulfill specific roles, working together in order to overcome challenging combat mechanics" something which is very much lacking in this current climate of stat bloat and imbued LI increases. People seem to insist that "raiders get everything" as SSG puts things behind group content but the reality is that none of this content is suited to raiders either, they simply happen to be the part of the community best able to farm the rewards.

    There are very few people that are actually happy with the current state of things, whilst SSG has managed to pull us out of the mess that was Helms Deep and restored a fair bit of faith during the period stretching from Osgiliath to Far Anorien they are beginning to slip into some bad habits in terms of lengthy grinds. Trying to single out a playstyle here is silly.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Nonde View Post
    I heard the bells begin to tinkle when 105 essences plans arrived and created a char to test just how much of a travesty of crafting they had made - 1 and 35 minutes from character create to production of a wild essence. No more need to level multiple crafts to cover all essence types due to intro of box conversion, not even need to master the tiers in the one craft. Update 20 further devalues crafting as in addition to all in one char essence crafting items that once required a specific craft can be acquired by the insta "crafter". This update is focused on instance grinding, not crafting.
    The current system is great. It broke the Cook monopoly on Morale Essences, which had made Cooking the only prof that really mattered and made vast profits. Good job SSG, please keep the Wild Essences system that makes every Essence craftable by anyone.
    Arkenstone (formerly Landroval):
    Lizaveta, r12 Minstrel.

    Eviliz Unseen, r11 Warg. Lizifer, r11 Defiler.

  3. #203
    I didn't want to participate in either of the U20 Beta threads - I was afraid of getting caught in the crossfire. Also, I thought the case I supported had already been made quite well by others. However, before this goes live next week, I want to go ahead and add my voice to the others who have already made the following points regarding the increased price for reputation acceleration tomes in the skirmish camps.

    1. If your intent is, in fact, to address an increased skirmish mark and medallion acquisition rate, you're going about it the wrong way. The ones who will be negatively impacted by this price increase are those who *have not* experienced a increased acquisition rate. If acquisition rate is the problem being addressed, why not simply adjust the acquisition rate of the content you think is over-providing? Otherwise, it just feels like a penalty for not participating in said content.

    2. Instead of addressing an increase in acquisition rate, this feels like you're simply trying to herd players into your store by making a store item more difficult to acquire in-game via actual game play. This has happened often enough that it's not an unreasonable explanation. It's exactly what's expected when one entity controls both supply and demand. If that's the way you want to play it, that's your call. But, I won't support a company that plays by those rules. What surprises me is that so many do.

    3. This is fairly typical of Turbine; Propose something ludicrous, wait for the negative feedback, back off the proposal just a little, call it a compromise and receive accolades for "listening". You started with a ridiculous 566% price increase, plenty of feedback was provided, you then offered us a slightly smaller increase as if that somehow addressed the feedback: "Don't raise the price". All the original criticisms are still intact, they're just slightly less egregious now.

    If you want more players in your game and more potential customers in your store, try attracting them the old fashioned way; make a game so good customers cannot resist the temptation to play. Quit trying to bilk the few you have left.

  4. #204
    Trying to put together the reputation information in one post. I apologize if this has been put together elsewhere. If so, please link it.

    For Host of the West, you can go from Kindred to Celebrated, which is 45k rep to 90k rep.
    For Host of the West Weapons/Armour/Provisions, you can get to Kindred, which is 30k rep each.
    All told, you are looking at somewhere between 135k rep to 180k rep to max out all 4 factions. I am not certain of the benefits of getting Host of the West to Celebrated, but I will assume below that is desirable.

    With Rep accelerators, you can halve the grind at 1k rep each for 60 marks and 6 meds currently (not sure what the latest update number is). Therefore, you will need between 68 and 90 small rep acceleration tomes per character, which cost between 4080 marks 408 meds and 5400 marks 540 meds respectively.

    The initial change to the cost of rep accelerators was to 400 marks and 40 meds, which would have made it between 27200 marks 2720 meds and 36000 marks 3600 meds.

    Again, not sure what the latest update changed price to, and not sure if having max rep with all the factions is necessary. Just looking at it as a "worst case scenario". I will be getting the accelerators for one character as that is all that I play at level max.

    *Edit* Looks like the proposed U20 cost of rep accelerators is 250 marks 25 meds. So a look at maxing the four factions is this...
    Pre-U20 between 4080 marks 408 meds and 5400 marks 540 meds
    Post-U20 between 17000 marks 1700 meds and 22500 marks 2250 meds

    Just over 4x the price. Personally, I plan on buying 200-300 to help my char in the future.
    Last edited by mattspencer; Mar 20 2017 at 10:03 AM.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by mattspencer View Post
    Trying to put together the reputation information in one post. I apologize if this has been put together elsewhere. If so, please link it.

    For Host of the West, you can go from Kindred to Celebrated, which is 45k rep to 90k rep.
    For Host of the West Weapons/Armour/Provisions, you can get to Kindred, which is 30k rep each.
    All told, you are looking at somewhere between 135k rep to 180k rep to max out all 4 factions. I am not certain of the benefits of getting Host of the West to Celebrated, but I will assume below that is desirable.
    OK, you need to get kindred standing. Do you skip everything before it?
    It's 90k rep per faction to get kindred.
    195k to get to celebrated.
    465k to get all the reputation done.
    232.5k with reputation accelerator.
    Last edited by Gandalphor; Mar 20 2017 at 12:43 PM.

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    225
    Quote Originally Posted by mattspencer View Post
    Trying to put together the reputation information in one post. I apologize if this has been put together elsewhere. If so, please link it.

    For Host of the West, you can go from Kindred to Celebrated, which is 45k rep to 90k rep.
    For Host of the West Weapons/Armour/Provisions, you can get to Kindred, which is 30k rep each.
    All told, you are looking at somewhere between 135k rep to 180k rep to max out all 4 factions. I am not certain of the benefits of getting Host of the West to Celebrated, but I will assume below that is desirable.

    Again, not sure what the latest update changed price to, and not sure if having max rep with all the factions is necessary. Just looking at it as a "worst case scenario". I will be getting the accelerators for one character as that is all that I play at level max.

    *Edit* Looks like the proposed U20 cost of rep accelerators is 250 marks 25 meds. So a look at maxing the four factions is this...
    Pre-U20 between 4080 marks 408 meds and 5400 marks 540 meds
    Post-U20 between 17000 marks 1700 meds and 22500 marks 2250 meds

    Just over 4x the price. Personally, I plan on buying 200-300 to help my char in the future.
    I'm afraid your calculations started off wrong;

    U20 reputation totals per character:
    Host of the West (starting from Kindred): Respected (45,000 reputation), Honoured (60,000 reputation), Celebrated (90,000 reputation)
    Total: 195,000 reputation
    New Host of the West factions (Armour, Weapons, Provisions) go to Kindred each, meaning: Acquaintance (10,000 reputation), Friend (20,000 reputation), Ally (25,000 reputation) and Kindred (30,000 reputation)
    Total: 85,000 reputation per faction, so 85,000*3 = 255,000

    Total reputation: 195,000 + 255,000 = 450,000 reputation needed per character to max all in U20. Or 225 accelerators.

    The benefit of going up until Celebrated with Host of the West is it provides improved recipes to craft more of the barter items you can use to get Host of the West Armour, Weapons or Provisions reputation.

    Price for 225 acceleratros PRE-U20: 13,500 marks; 1,350 medallions
    Price for 225 accelerators POST-U20: 56,250 marks; 5,625 medallions

    (price used to calculate is 250 marks 25 meds, which is the last official communication we received so is the likely price we'll see on live)

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by tharielc View Post
    I agree more LI tiers aren't necessary unless the content is harder, but be careful modifying updates based on forum feedback alone. People unhappy with changes are more likely to comment than those who are happy about the changes so ideally you could somehow ask the general population if they agree with the comments before acting on them?

    Debatable.

    Research by Neylor and Kleiser (2000), highlights that consumers spread positive word of mouth (WoM) communications than negative WoM. Further research supporting this from Engel et al. (1969) and Holmes and Lett (1977) indicate that satisfied customers are more likely to convey positive WoM communications than dissatisfied customers are to convey negative WoM communications.

    Holmes, J., Lett, J. (1977) ‘Product sampling and Word of Mouth.’ Journal of advertising research, 17(5) pp. 35-40.

    Mangold, G., Smith, K. (2012) ‘Selling to millennials with online reviews’ Business Horizons. 55(2) pp.141-153

    Naylor, G. Kleiser, S. (2000) ‘Negative vesus positive word of mouth: An exception to the rule.’ Journal of Consumer Satisfaction, Dissatisfaction, and Complaining Behavior, 13(1) pp.26-36


    Any post-graduate digital marketing jobs SSG?
    [Eldar]-[Evernight] | Silent Paths
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    Captain | Isilious

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    . . . most of us probably spent a day actually gathering the ingredients max with a few doing far less. . . .
    Come on, one day to farm and process 10 tiers of plants for cooks, of ore for WS, MS and jeweller, logs for WW and text for scholars?? And not forgetting processing them into usable parts and 7 crafts x 10 tiers of craft levelling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    The difference between guild rep and host of the west rep (besides host of the west requiring double the rep per alt) is the fact that guild rep will always have value. This Qpack will come and go but crafting guilds will always be relevant in terms of the end-game items you can make.
    Crafting guilds have not been relevant since lvl 100 LI crafts. The last guild item crafts are lvl 95 and content moved to 95 in 2013. All that is relevant for end game crafting atm is a single unguilded no tiers mastered "crafter" which if fed mats is achievable in less than 2 hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    This update is focused on landscape grinding, as was the update before it. The resource dungeons are not instance content. Featured instances barely meet the definition of instance content. The definition of instance content according to raiders would be much more along the lines of: "Content which requires 6 or more players to fulfill specific roles, working together in order to overcome challenging combat mechanics" something which is very much lacking in this current climate of stat bloat and imbued LI increases. People seem to insist that "raiders get everything" as SSG puts things behind group content but the reality is that none of this content is suited to raiders either, they simply happen to be the part of the community best able to farm the rewards.
    Thank you for explaining this. It is helpful to understand what the term means to others as I was unaware we use them differently. [To me an instance is any go to instanced space which requires a team of any size and can be any degree of challenge. Landscape grinding to me is flower collecting.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Joedangod View Post
    There are very few people that are actually happy with the current state of things, whilst SSG has managed to pull us out of the mess that was Helms Deep and restored a fair bit of faith during the period stretching from Osgiliath to Far Anorien they are beginning to slip into some bad habits in terms of lengthy grinds. Trying to single out a playstyle here is silly.
    Much has been improved and all cannot be achieved at once. I am aware raiders waited 3/4 years for a new raid, only so many development resources and lots of us to attend to and it is for this reason I haven't been lobbying for crafting updates on the forums. It may be more apparent now that when I use the term instance grinding I am not referring to raiders, as it now apparent to me how it could be interpreted as such. I raise crafting and music here as examples of playstyles that don't have the time even if having the inclination to re-re-re-run the content that gives generic rewards like rep accelerators, starlits and empowerment scrolls (in the quantities needed) as while the proposed increase in rep accelerator price is easily accommodated by those who do, it is already damn hard for those of us who don't and this will only worsen our circumstances. Raiders are a class unto themselves imo with distinct rewards and have never been the focus of my comments despite my use of the phrase instance grinding appears to have made it seem so.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by B749 View Post
    I'm afraid your calculations started off wrong;

    U20 reputation totals per character:
    Host of the West (starting from Kindred): Respected (45,000 reputation), Honoured (60,000 reputation), Celebrated (90,000 reputation)
    Total: 195,000 reputation
    New Host of the West factions (Armour, Weapons, Provisions) go to Kindred each, meaning: Acquaintance (10,000 reputation), Friend (20,000 reputation), Ally (25,000 reputation) and Kindred (30,000 reputation)
    Total: 85,000 reputation per faction, so 85,000*3 = 255,000

    Total reputation: 195,000 + 255,000 = 450,000 reputation needed per character to max all in U20. Or 225 accelerators.

    The benefit of going up until Celebrated with Host of the West is it provides improved recipes to craft more of the barter items you can use to get Host of the West Armour, Weapons or Provisions reputation.

    Price for 225 acceleratros PRE-U20: 13,500 marks; 1,350 medallions
    Price for 225 accelerators POST-U20: 56,250 marks; 5,625 medallions

    (price used to calculate is 250 marks 25 meds, which is the last official communication we received so is the likely price we'll see on live)
    Thank you. I was using Dadi's preview which seems to be off from the last Beta build, and reading their preview wrong. Looks like I will be getting several hundred if not a thousand rep accels.

  10. #210
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Maryam View Post
    The current system is great. It broke the Cook monopoly on Morale Essences, which had made Cooking the only prof that really mattered and made vast profits. Good job SSG, please keep the Wild Essences system that makes every Essence craftable by anyone.
    Vast profits? My 2 guilded crafted cooks clicked up morale essences no charge as did all crafters I know for all types of essences. Some tipped, some didn't, and some expected me to donate mats in addition to donating time and skill. The first time in 10 yrs I cracked 2k gold was when I abandoned 4 chars and sold their quest Ithilien essences. While I can understand it suits those who haven't levelled crafts to avoid having to do so, it is pretty depressing to have invested considerable time and money [we don't sell mats, we buy them to reduce grind, use regional tokens to buy recipes instead of relics etc, and buy rep accelerators, starlits, and empowerment scrolls from those who have the time and inclination to run the content that gives them] and have 7 crafters be supplanted by a single unguilded character who hasn't even mastered the tiers.

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalphor View Post
    OK, you need to get kindred standing. Do you skip everything before it?
    It's 90k rep per faction to get kindred.
    195k to get to celebrated.
    465k to get all the reputation done.
    232.5k with reputation accelerator.
    B749 provided some numbers that seem right. Either way, I was trying to look at it two ways; best case scenario someone already has Kindred with Host of the West, and then just needs the higher tiers along with the new factions; and worst case scenario someone is starting from nothing. So it looks like 450k to 540k rep, which is 225 to 290 rep accels...
    Price for 225 to 290 accelerators PRE-U20: 13,500 marks; 1,350 medallions to 17,400 marks; 1,740 medallions
    Price for 225 to 290 accelerators POST-U20: 56,250 marks; 5,625 medallions to 72,500 marks; 7,250 medallions

    That is a difference of about 15 to 19 ASoE's (if those still go for 2,541 marks and 293 medallions each which is what the wiki says).

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by mattspencer View Post
    B749 provided some numbers that seem right. Either way, I was trying to look at it two ways; best case scenario someone already has Kindred with Host of the West, and then just needs the higher tiers along with the new factions; and worst case scenario someone is starting from nothing. So it looks like 450k to 540k rep, which is 225 to 290 rep accels...
    Price for 225 to 290 accelerators PRE-U20: 13,500 marks; 1,350 medallions to 17,400 marks; 1,740 medallions
    Price for 225 to 290 accelerators POST-U20: 56,250 marks; 5,625 medallions to 72,500 marks; 7,250 medallions

    That is a difference of about 15 to 19 ASoE's (if those still go for 2,541 marks and 293 medallions each which is what the wiki says).
    I love the idea that someone else provided the numbers (almost half an hour after me, but whatever).

    I was just refering to you not noticing that 30k rep is just the last tier for kindred and there's still 0 to whatever for the previous ones. There is a possibility of a mistake by 15k rep (5k each) because I wasn't sure if the first tier is 10k or 15k.
    So adding a total of almost half a million reputation, while rep acc is getting more expensive is a bit too much at once in my book. It's even the same region, not like Central Gondor where the rep was phisically divided and spread across the map, these 3 guys are standing next to each other.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Nonde View Post
    Vast profits? My 2 guilded crafted cooks clicked up morale essences no charge as did all crafters I know for all types of essences. Some tipped, some didn't, and some expected me to donate mats in addition to donating time and skill. The first time in 10 yrs I cracked 2k gold was when I abandoned 4 chars and sold their quest Ithilien essences. While I can understand it suits those who haven't levelled crafts to avoid having to do so, it is pretty depressing to have invested considerable time and money [we don't sell mats, we buy them to reduce grind, use regional tokens to buy recipes instead of relics etc, and buy rep accelerators, starlits, and empowerment scrolls from those who have the time and inclination to run the content that gives them] and have 7 crafters be supplanted by a single unguilded character who hasn't even mastered the tiers.
    Then that's your fault for letting yourself be exploited by "friends," rather than selling on AH and World/Trade and making bank. The Wild Essence system is wonderful a big improvement over expecting people to have 7 crafters, or one all important crafter (Cook). Guild crafting still provides what it always has, gear for newly level capped alts who haven't earned anything better, so no need to fix "crafting" until the next expac and level cap increase.
    Arkenstone (formerly Landroval):
    Lizaveta, r12 Minstrel.

    Eviliz Unseen, r11 Warg. Lizifer, r11 Defiler.

  14. #214
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Maryam View Post
    Then that's your fault for letting yourself be exploited by "friends," rather than selling on AH and World/Trade and making bank.
    This is the norm, I wasn't exploited. On every server you can easily find crafters happy to click up mats for free, particularly if you say: Lf cook to craft 105 morale essence, I have recipes and mats instead of: Can an Anorien crafter pst me? same as odds of getting help are greater when state quest need help with instead of I need 105 to help me, pst. While some will price high the majority of crafters enjoy making things per se and enjoy when what they make is useful to others. When you see high prices in AH always check name on item against poster name if not the same tell/mail crafter to query there price as much of this is the result of repricing, not crafter greed.

    [QUOTE=Maryam;7704226] The Wild Essence system is wonderful a big improvement over expecting people to have 7 crafters, or one all important crafter (Cook).

    105 supremes required neither guild nor mastery of tiers, you had but to buy mats and spend less than 2 hours processing them to be able to make your own. My 7 thusly rendered obsolete crafters had all progressed to minimum kindred Helmingas just for recipes in addition to mastering and guilding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maryam View Post
    Guild crafting still provides what it always has, gear for newly level capped alts who haven't earned anything better, so no need to fix "crafting" until the next expac and level cap increase.
    The last non essence craftable jewel and armor sets are lvl 95 and the sold guild plans for lvl 100 are LIs. 100 regular craft armor and jewel plans are slotted and few want to be bothered with t7 essence slotting. There are 0 105 item plans, solely essence crafting at 105. Neither guild nor non guilded crafting is able to provide for newly levelled cap players.

    I have not here been requesting an update to crafting. I have simply hoped to point out that not all playstyles focus on the activities that generate items used by all playstyles such as marks for rep accelerators, starlits, empowerment scrolls [ironically my need for these things is greater because I craft - I was among those buying supreme and greater essence recipe sets in addition to the above items so as to equip my craft alts] - and that playstyles such as mine are going to be hit hard by the increase cost in rep accelerators. Clearly I failed. A person has been offering 5g each on Crick was unable to find anyone to sell at that price and that already makes them unaffordable for me.

    I won't be posting here again, but I will on general forums in future as patiently awaiting the Eye of Development to turn and focus on crafting hasn't resulted in maintainance of the status quo as I had expected. Cheers to all.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Gandalphor View Post
    I love the idea that someone else provided the numbers (almost half an hour after me, but whatever).
    Wow, drop the attitude. They posted numbers that seem more correct, and much better explained, with the cost of the accelerators factored in. You put down some numbers with little explanation that appear incorrect, and you edited your post after theirs to correct yours.

    Yes, I did figure the to kindred standing wrong. It looks like we have good numbers now, which is what I was looking for.

  16. #216
    If that were the case the numbers would be the same. Next time I give some info I'll make sure to draw it also and add a how to instruction. Enjoy your straight to kindred rep.

  17. #217
    Next time you post info, make sure it is correct before you get an attitude when pointing out others flaws. Enjoy your glass house.

 

 
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