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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    201

    Burglar Bow Feedback

    We wanted to address some of the feedback that we've been seeing regarding Burglar bows, and we wanted to make sure that our intentions for making this change were clear.

    The basic reasoning went like this:

    1. Beornings didn't have a good way of pulling targets, especially for multipulling.
    2. It's pretty trivial to give a class the ability to use a particular weapon.
    3. Let's give Beornings bows!
    4. Some Burglars are asking for bows now.
    5. Burglars have pulls, but no way to pull multiple non-adjacent targets.
    6. Burglars don't have a good ranged slot item, since FMs aren't very good right now.
    7. Let's give Burglars bows!

    This wasn't a long-term planned change, or an attempt to fix the larger issues with the Burglar, or even a "buff", per se. This was a target of opportunity; we saw a problem and a low-cost way to solve the problem, so we went ahead with it. All of the other options to solve this problem that we've seen suggested (throwing knife autoattack, improving Signals, improving FMs, etc.) are ideas that we think are cool, but would take significantly more time. They're full features, when giving bow proficiency is extremely simple. We just don't have the time to implement any of these other solutions as well as all of the other stuff we're doing in U18.

    Given all of this, I want to present you with a choice: Would you rather Burglars have bows, or would you rather that Burglars not have bows? At this point, that's the choice. If you would rather not have bows, we're okay with removing them, but there won't be something else added in its place in U18.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,109
    Thanks for addressing our concerns and especially giving us a choice!
    In all honesty, I don't think the bow really fits the Burglar class. So I would prefer giving us nothing for U18.
    The question is: are things like improving signals/FMs/etc. planned for the foreseeable future? Or is it bows or nothing at all for a long time?
    Dobb - Hobbit Burglar
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    ...
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  3. #3
    I vote no... would the burglar class trainer selling consumable throwing knives be a viable alternative?

  4. #4
    Yes for bow!

  5. #5
    Ever since beta my main has been a Burglar.
    I vote to not have a bow, it is lore breaking and draws away from the immersion for me. I am happy to wait for something more in keeping with the class concept.
    Also give us our evade benefits back as the decreased evade renders the Burglar too squishy to play in raids. Evade is currently one of the main survivability factors of the Burglar.

  6. #6
    I'm definitely voting no for bows. Though I understand your rationale behind bows, it just doesn't fit the class at all. I'd say at this point, if permanent throwing daggers/hatchets aren't an option, either buff signals or do nothing at all. I'd only really equip the bow for extra stats if you were to implement it on live.

    -Aenise the Burg
    Last edited by Neomoth; Mar 30 2016 at 05:33 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    521
    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Give us bows. If, at some point in the future there is capacity for something like the throwing knives, then reevaluate the situation then.
    Originally Posted by Damian6988
    That is not unlike drinking a pot of coffee and taking a Valium.
    "I want to stay up and get more work done, but I don't want to remember any of it."

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,461
    I'd vote no, if there was a promise that a proper, well-thought out alternative (aka non-consumable throwing knife) was promised for a future update.

  9. #9
    Definitely in favor of having bows. A throwing dagger skill be a fun option to that, but if time doesn't allow for the development of it, the bow is acceptable. It's a better option to no option.

  10. #10
    Yes to bows!


    If no bows... I want my old Knives Out skill reverted back to it's old glory!!
    Moridin


    Aut vincere aut mori
    Attitude is everything

    League of Legends HebnesO: Singed The MAD Chemist. - Gold ranked player season one
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  11. #11
    Give Burglars bows.

    Those that don't like them can keep their Signal equipped, equip a bow for stats and not use it, or just leave the slot empty.
    Thiranigor (CPT) - Alyshia (CHN) - Thangoril (RK) - Menthol (GRD) - Eccentrica (MIN) - Ederoth (HNT)
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  12. #12
    My preference is to have bows, but I can see how giving us bows and then taking them away later on would be unfair, so I'm not sure. There must have been more than just the outcry on the forum for you to think about reversing this decision, and Burglar bows will upset people while no Burglar bows will not.

    I'm sure you do... but remember that, Burglar bows or not, the class needs some help.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    139
    Quote Originally Posted by EdgeCase View Post
    5. Burglars have pulls, but no way to pull multiple non-adjacent targets.
    I feel like this is a situation that simply doesn't happen. If I see my targets are non-adjacent, I'm licking my lips.

    No to bows.

    Buff the signals at your earliest possible convenience. Or add boomerangs so we have something unique to the class.

  14. #14
    A suggestion from ingame just now: Rather than bows... How about crossbows? Only really different from bows cosmetically, but it would at least be a little different to most other classes.

    Personally, I see no reason Burglars can't have bows, but then I don't really play mine.
    Last edited by GoldenusG; Mar 30 2016 at 05:39 PM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    178
    Thank you for being clear about this and giving us a choice, it's much appreciated!

    I would like to see bows be implemented with U18, especially since you clearly state there's just is not an alternative right now!

    There's different opinions amongst Burglars on whether or not Burglars should have bows, but if some do want to use them then by all means let them!

    Also I hope, that one day soonish there will be time for the devs to have another look at the burglar class as a whole!

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    16
    Thank you for the insight into the decision process. I appreciate you asking directly for our preference.

    No bows please.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    201
    Quote Originally Posted by dwarfThar View Post
    The question is: are things like improving signals/FMs/etc. planned for the foreseeable future? Or is it bows or nothing at all for a long time?
    It depends on what you mean by "long time". There isn't enough time to do more fixes in this vein until after the raid is out. However, improving the Burglar is definitely something I'm interested in doing, and something I'd like to do soon after. I'd like to stress that I'm not promising Burglar changes here, since I don't want to make a promise unless I know for sure that we're going to follow through, but Burglar improvements are near the top of the list of things we'd like to do, for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confounded View Post
    I vote no... would the burglar class trainer selling consumable throwing knives be a viable alternative?
    You can still make Serrated Knives and Throwing Hatchets as a Weaponsmith, and I'd rather not undercut crafting like that. If you're asking if we could make a new kind of non-cooldown throwing knife for U18, the answer is no, unfortunately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tirian-Hammerfist View Post
    I'd vote no, if there was a promise that a proper, well-thought out alternative (aka non-consumable throwing knife) was promised for a future update.
    I don't want to disappoint you here: We can't make that promise right now. I love the idea of a non-consumable throwing knife as a ranged slot item for Burglars, but I'm not going to promise something that isn't guaranteed. If we do broad Burglar changes, then making a non-consumable ranged slot knife is probably something that will happen, but we can't promise anything definite for that right now.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    871
    Quote Originally Posted by EdgeCase View Post
    We wanted to address some of the feedback that we've been seeing regarding Burglar bows, and we wanted to make sure that our intentions for making this change were clear.

    The basic reasoning went like this:

    1. Beornings didn't have a good way of pulling targets, especially for multipulling.
    2. It's pretty trivial to give a class the ability to use a particular weapon.
    3. Let's give Beornings bows!
    4. Some Burglars are asking for bows now.
    5. Burglars have pulls, but no way to pull multiple non-adjacent targets.
    6. Burglars don't have a good ranged slot item, since FMs aren't very good right now.
    7. Let's give Burglars bows!

    This wasn't a long-term planned change, or an attempt to fix the larger issues with the Burglar, or even a "buff", per se. This was a target of opportunity; we saw a problem and a low-cost way to solve the problem, so we went ahead with it. All of the other options to solve this problem that we've seen suggested (throwing knife autoattack, improving Signals, improving FMs, etc.) are ideas that we think are cool, but would take significantly more time. They're full features, when giving bow proficiency is extremely simple. We just don't have the time to implement any of these other solutions as well as all of the other stuff we're doing in U18.

    Given all of this, I want to present you with a choice: Would you rather Burglars have bows, or would you rather that Burglars not have bows? At this point, that's the choice. If you would rather not have bows, we're okay with removing them, but there won't be something else added in its place in U18.
    It is a shame that with a new raid on the way, your 6th point makes it seem like you're not really interested in fixing the FMs until then. I'd rather have throwing knifes turned into equipment than bows, because burglars with bows doesn't seem right.
    I also don't know why a burglar would want to pull a mob with a bow. The beauty of the Burglar is that you can stealth your way through the mobs and attack your target from behind from stealth. And in fellowships, I also can't see why a Burglar would really need to be able to pull mobs with a ranged attack. That's usually what ranged classes do or the tank. The only benefit from bows I can see is the improved stats, but that you can also put in the signals.

  19. #19
    Yes, please give us bows. Yes, please and thank you.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    10
    Yes to bows as a temporary solution. Would like to see to see something better eventually.

  21. #21
    No to the Bow!

  22. #22
    and a NO from my second account ^ also
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/042080000000c34b5/01004/signature.png]Ironee[/charsig]

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    610
    Quote Originally Posted by EdgeCase View Post
    I don't want to disappoint you here: We can't make that promise right now. I love the idea of a non-consumable throwing knife as a ranged slot item for Burglars, but I'm not going to promise something that isn't guaranteed. If we do broad Burglar changes, then making a non-consumable ranged slot knife is probably something that will happen, but we can't promise anything definite for that right now.
    First, count me as a "No" vote for burglar bows.

    Second, I really want to compliment you for being totally upfront and honest. I like to know that burglars are near the top of the list for potential updates, but I like even more that you're not making promises that you may or may not be able to keep. +10 to you, Edge. Let me know your feelings on bacon...there might be a gift box from Nueske's in your future.

    Finally, to the quote above, and your previous statement about not wanting to undercut crafting, how about this: Alter the recipes for throwing knives and hatchets to be non-consumable items. Much like a non-guild woodworker makes a bow. DPS could increase as the levels go up, you could add equivalent stat boosts to the items as you have on bows currently...heck, you could even give burgs a "Let Fly"-type skill for their first toss in place IN PLACE OF the Exploit Opening skill if they were carrying a throwing weapon in their ranged slot. If they went with a signal, Exploit Opening would appear and function as normal. Crafters would still have a purpose for both signals and weapons, burgs would have class-appropriate ranged weapon options with a multi-pull, plus stats boosts like bow carriers have. Just some thoughts.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by EdgeCase View Post
    You can still make Serrated Knives and Throwing Hatchets as a Weaponsmith, and I'd rather not undercut crafting like that. If you're asking if we could make a new kind of non-cooldown throwing knife for U18, the answer is no, unfortunately.
    How difficult would it be to implement a universal change to the cooldown of hatchets? To say.. 3 seconds? Since there are a ton of them, I'm sure it's not as easy.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    508
    Very much a yes to bows! Certainly more useful than say.... nothing.

    As far as the immersion argument goes, really? I haven't seen many people complaining about seeing characters running around with pumpkins on their heads or cosmetically equipping giant flowers as main-hand weapons.

 

 
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