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  1. #26

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Based on Xpheyel's great description of his typical attack execution, I'd have to guess that auto-attacks occur *only* when the skill timers for next-queued attack skill is affected by either its own cooldown timer or by the global cooldown timer.

    In other words, your attack skills do occur on the "ticks" of your auto-attack speed, and if the next-queued skill is not ready for some reason on the next "tick", then your normal auto-attack occurs instead. If the next-queued skill *is* ready, then the skill happens instead of the auto-attack.

    I'll start watching my own attack chains carefully to see whether I can verify this theory. Honestly, the combat is so engaging in other ways that I haven't really been able to notice this for myself just yet. Now that I know what to look for it should be easier to verify.
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  2. #27

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Good, informative thread, thank you.

  3. #28
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    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    For the Two Hander Section, you should note that using a two hander changes some of your attacks costs. With a two hander its also important to focus on attacks that give you more swings, compared to attacks with lots of +dmg with a one hander.

  4. #29
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    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    I have pretty much solely used slow two handed weapons, and I don't think I've ever seen a skill overwrite an auto attack. What I see happen is that if an auto attack is queued for going off in the middle of me executing a skill, instead the auto attack goes off immediately after the skill finishes. For example, I have one attack, Pressing Attack, which swings twice. With a big slow two hander those swings are so slow, that I always--always--see three attacks in a row. First Pressing Attack swing, second pressing attack swing, and then my auto attack.

    Also, as a captain, I use a mixture of attack skills and cries for damage. While I'm almost certain the weapon attack skills do not interrupt my auto attack sequence, or just delay it a slight bit at worst, the cries definitely seem to stop my auto attacks. The only reason I really use Piercing Cry at all, since it only does a slight bit more damage than my auto attacks, is because it opens up my most damaging attacks.

    Anyway, that's what I've observed. I think we really need to take this on a class-by-class and ability-by-ability basis, though. Xpheyel mentioned that his opening sequence seems to completely overwrite his auto attacks, but maybe that's only because of the type of skills he's using. If some of those abilities are self-buffs, debuffs, or non-weapon attacks, maybe that's what's canceling his auto attacks, whereas the same would not be true for a different class, or even for different burglar abilities.

  5. #30

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by fugazied View Post
    For the Two Hander Section, you should note that using a two hander changes some of your attacks costs. With a two hander its also important to focus on attacks that give you more swings, compared to attacks with lots of +dmg with a one hander.
    Can you give an example of such a skill that actually changes power cost with a 2-hander? You're the first person to report this, and I've never seen it on any of my various character's skills.

    The whole issue with larger or smaller +damage modifiers doesn't have anything to do with 1H vs 2H weapons per se, but instead with slower versus faster weapons. So even among 1H weapons you'll see some that do more +damage than others.

    The real bottom line with 2H weapons versus 1H weapons is that you tend to have much larger Avg Damage values with 2H weapons, and if your attack skill chains result in a lot of "extra swings" this can result in more overall damage output than with a 1H weapon. Again, the main point is that the DPS value in LOTRO is to some degree a "red herring" when considering the best weapon to use for your class and your most-used attack skills.
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  6. #31
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    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    I don't know what changes there are to power costs.

    But I can tell you that fervor works slightly differently for champs when using a 2-hander.

    Champs have a couple of 3-swing combos, the first costs 2 fervor and the second takes 3. When using a 2-handed weapon, the fervor costs stay the same, but you need 3 fervor to trigger the -2 fervor skill, and 4 fervor to trigger the -3 fervor skill.

  7. #32

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike000 View Post
    I don't know what changes there are to power costs.

    But I can tell you that fervor works slightly differently for champs when using a 2-hander.

    Champs have a couple of 3-swing combos, the first costs 2 fervor and the second takes 3. When using a 2-handed weapon, the fervor costs stay the same, but you need 3 fervor to trigger the -2 fervor skill, and 4 fervor to trigger the -3 fervor skill.
    Okay that was enough info for me to suss out what's really happening. Fervour costs *do* change depending on your equipped weapons, but it's *not* based on whether you're weilding a 2H weapon or not.

    Instead, it changes based on whether you're dual-wielding or not!!! (ya I'm surprised I didn't notice that before, lol.)

    • If you are dual-wielding, the Fervour cost of skills like Savage Strikes, Brutal Strikes, Exchange of Blows, etc. are lower, with a flat cost like "3 Fervour"
    • If you are wielding 1H only, 1H + Shield, or 2H, then the Fervour cost of these skills is higher, with a cost that says "Requires at least 4 Fervour, but Removes 3 from Fervour"


    I'm surprised that you pay the higher Fervour cost even if you're weilding a 1H weapon all by itself, but there ya go.

    I'll up date the original guide at the top of this thread with this new info, thanks!
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  8. #33
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    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Maybe I missed it, but I didn't notice this in the main post - On most attack skills (at least for champ), each swing follows the formula: weapon damage + x. Or y% weapon damage + x. For example, Brutal Strikes looks something like:
    3 attacks
    105% main hand + 75
    105% main hand + 75
    105% off hand + 70

    The interesting thing is that x gets bigger, the slower the weapon is. Now assume 2 sets of dual wield weapons, all 4 weapons having the same DPS, but one set is a sword and dagger (faster, lower damage), and the other set is an axe and mace (slower, higher damage). So, if the above example is with 2 fast, low damage weapons, equipping the 2 slower, higher damage weapons with the same rated DPS might yield:
    105% main hand + 80
    105% main hand + 80
    105% off hand + 75

    So not only did the main hand and off hand components increase, but so did x!
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  9. #34

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Amoryn View Post
    Maybe I missed it, but I didn't notice this in the main post...The interesting thing is that x gets bigger, the slower the weapon is. ...
    You probably forgot about it by the time you finished the essay, because it's covered in the very first bullet "Speed" under Basic terms and formulas. =)
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  10. #35

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    This is really interesting stuff, this being my first mmo I am far from what you'd call a min/maxer but even to the casual observer the "rhythm" definitely makes a difference. On my guard, I would intentionally wait for one auto-attack to fire before hitting a skill- just as she raises the weapon seemed about perfect. The timers didn't seem to interfere with one another, the skill would hit immediately afterwards and the time til the next auto seemed unchanged. But now with my burg, trying to do the same thing doesn't work at all and the timing overall just feels clumsy. Hope we get some more details on this soon.

  11. #36

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    An excellent and thorough analysis, once again! Most appreciated
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  12. #37
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    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    I have been using the melee effectiveness value (in the character info panel) to guide me in choosing a 2H weapon vs dual-wielding. That number always seemed to be better when dual-wielding, and at some point I stopped checking. I assumed the melee effectiveness number was in some way related to the damage you would do in an attack. Is this value not useful??

  13. #38

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    This is a great post i have been struggling with what direction to go with weapons while im tanking and have been happier with the faster weapons for the skill spamming im able to do faster ....


    thanks alot !
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  14. #39

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by CorayThan View Post
    I have pretty much solely used slow two handed weapons, and I don't think I've ever seen a skill overwrite an auto attack. What I see happen is that if an auto attack is queued for going off in the middle of me executing a skill, instead the auto attack goes off immediately after the skill finishes. For example, I have one attack, Pressing Attack, which swings twice. With a big slow two hander those swings are so slow, that I always--always--see three attacks in a row. First Pressing Attack swing, second pressing attack swing, and then my auto attack.

    Also, as a captain, I use a mixture of attack skills and cries for damage. While I'm almost certain the weapon attack skills do not interrupt my auto attack sequence, or just delay it a slight bit at worst, the cries definitely seem to stop my auto attacks. The only reason I really use Piercing Cry at all, since it only does a slight bit more damage than my auto attacks, is because it opens up my most damaging attacks.

    Anyway, that's what I've observed. I think we really need to take this on a class-by-class and ability-by-ability basis, though. Xpheyel mentioned that his opening sequence seems to completely overwrite his auto attacks, but maybe that's only because of the type of skills he's using. If some of those abilities are self-buffs, debuffs, or non-weapon attacks, maybe that's what's canceling his auto attacks, whereas the same would not be true for a different class, or even for different burglar abilities.
    Captains are a bit odd in this regard, as for us, you want to take the maximum Average damage with the slowest weapon you can find. This results in less power usage (Which is our main issue), more damage, and far heavier criticals on Devastating Blow. In addition, it results in far better use of Revealing Mark when using a Pressing Attack. In addition to this, in a PvMP setting, it results in a better damage given to damage taken ratio when moving in and out of combat range.

    Our Shouts do delay our auto-attack, but I have never had it overwrite one. Of course, I never use anything faster than 3.0 seconds, so I tend to have an easier time stacking combat abilities with auto-attacks.

    Unless the weapon in question has a to-hit modifier (Sword, Axe), a slow and fast weapon are comparable in auto-attack damage. Though the fast weapon will see more hits, and be less affected by a miss, it will also see more misses simply by the fact that it is attacking more often with the same to-hit chance. As a result, the average damage is what will determine which of the two deals more damage using only auto-attacks over a long fight. This means two weapons with the same average damage will deal the same damage over the course of a long fight, using only auto-attacks.

    Though the argument is made that faster weapons will hurt you less on a miss, I say that they will hurt you more on a -hit-. As many abilities have a cooldown time, and those cooldowns are the same regardless of the weapon speed you're using, you have an equal chance of hitting or missing on a given special ability with a slow or fast weapon. A hit with a fast weapon results in less damage, while a hit with a slow weapon results in more damage. Especially in the case of Captains, where it's common for us to have all our special attacks in cooldown and we're simply waiting 4s for Defensive Strike to roll back around, a slow weapon benefits us. We gain the same number of special attacks with a slow weapon, with the same hit-rate, but they deal more damage for the same power cost than a slow weapon. This means that the advantage of faster weapons (allowing more special attacks to be used in a shorter period, if you ignore power use) is negated, except when our longer cooldown abilities come back up. Generally, however, the higher damage potential we gain from those abilities (Especially Devastating Blow criticals) more than makes up for this perceived advantage.
    Last edited by DarrettTeldemari; May 25 2007 at 11:24 AM.

  15. #40
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    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaen View Post
    I have been using the melee effectiveness value (in the character info panel) to guide me in choosing a 2H weapon vs dual-wielding. That number always seemed to be better when dual-wielding, and at some point I stopped checking. I assumed the melee effectiveness number was in some way related to the damage you would do in an attack. Is this value not useful??
    It might be valuable if you are only auto-attacking, but I don't think it does, or has the ability to forsee exactly which skills you will be using with your equipped weapons. Since so much of the damage most classes do are skill based, and not from auto attack, I don't think melee efficiency holds much practical value.
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  16. #41

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by DarrettTeldemari View Post
    Captains are a bit odd in this regard, as for us, you want to take the maximum Average damage with the slowest weapon you can find. This results in less power usage (Which is our main issue), more damage, and far heavier criticals on Devastating Blow. In addition, it results in far better use of Revealing Mark when using a Pressing Attack. In addition to this, in a PvMP setting, it results in a better damage given to damage taken ratio when moving in and out of combat range.
    The higher Avg Damage value is what's giving you better damage on your attack skills. Nothing odd or Captain-specific here. The fact that a slower weapon helps with your high power consumption is indeed a Captain-specific tip, at least until Turbine fixes the high power cost of Captain skills.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarrettTeldemari View Post
    Our Shouts do delay our auto-attack, but I have never had it overwrite one. Of course, I never use anything faster than 3.0 seconds, so I tend to have an easier time stacking combat abilities with auto-attacks.
    This is good information, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarrettTeldemari View Post
    Unless the weapon in question has a to-hit modifier (Sword, Axe), a slow and fast weapon are comparable in auto-attack damage. Though the fast weapon will see more hits, and be less affected by a miss, it will also see more misses simply by the fact that it is attacking more often with the same to-hit chance. As a result, the average damage is what will determine which of the two deals more damage using only auto-attacks over a long fight. This means two weapons with the same average damage will deal the same damage over the course of a long fight, using only auto-attacks.

    Though the argument is made that faster weapons will hurt you less on a miss, I say that they will hurt you more on a -hit-. As many abilities have a cooldown time, and those cooldowns are the same regardless of the weapon speed you're using, you have an equal chance of hitting or missing on a given special ability with a slow or fast weapon. A hit with a fast weapon results in less damage, while a hit with a slow weapon results in more damage. Especially in the case of Captains, where it's common for us to have all our special attacks in cooldown and we're simply waiting 4s for Defensive Strike to roll back around, a slow weapon benefits us. We gain the same number of special attacks with a slow weapon, with the same hit-rate, but they deal more damage for the same power cost than a slow weapon. This means that the advantage of faster weapons (allowing more special attacks to be used in a shorter period, if you ignore power use) is negated, except when our longer cooldown abilities come back up. Generally, however, the higher damage potential we gain from those abilities (Especially Devastating Blow criticals) more than makes up for this perceived advantage.
    You're conflating two separate guidelines and their resultant effects: you're mixing the argument for fast versus slow weapons with the argument for using high Avg Damage for attack skills.

    Let's be clear about fast versus slow. Over the course of a *long* fight, there is no difference between a fast versus a slow weapon, provided they have the exact same DPS. But it's been proven time and time again that for *short* fights, a faster weapon is superior overall. Yes it's counter-intuitive so here's an example. Say you have two players of equal level with weapons that are equal DPS. Player A has the fast weapon and it hits for 10 damage every second. Player B has the slow weapon and it hits for 30 damage every 3 seconds. Both players have 70 hit points.
    • Player A needs to connect with 7 hits to kill player B. This could happen as quickly as 7 seconds with a 100% hit rate.
    • Player B needs to connect with 3 hits to kill Player A. This could happen as quickly as 9 seconds with a 100% hit rate.
    • If both players experience a 25% miss rate (75% hit rate) here's how long it takes each player to kill the other.
      • Player A needs 10 attacks (2-3 will be misses); that's 10 seconds.
      • Player B needs 4 attacks (1 will be a miss); that's 12 seconds.


    Can you see how in all cases, Player A has the advantage? Regardless of the miss rate, Player A will win the "race" because their misses "hurt" a lot less. Missing one big attack puts you behind in the race. This has been proven time and again. And remember, this applies to *short* fights only--that's where faster weapons always have the edge. Statistically, your odds to "win the race" are better with a faster weapon.

    Your entire second paragraph is focused on the effects of your attack skills, and in LOTRO, these are mostly benefitted from the Avg Damage of your weapon. Yes, the +damage modifier is based on the weapon speed (slower = higher +damage modifier), so speed is somewhat of a factor, but for most attack skills in the various classes' repetoires, the damage caused by all the "extra swings" far outweighs the damage caused by slightly larger +damage modifiers.
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  17. #42

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Amoryn View Post
    It might be valuable if you are only auto-attacking, but I don't think it does, or has the ability to forsee exactly which skills you will be using with your equipped weapons. Since so much of the damage most classes do are skill based, and not from auto attack, I don't think melee efficiency holds much practical value.
    I agree with Amoryn on this point, and that's why I don't even mention the "Melee Efficiency" stat in my guide. I'm pretty sure that it's just some magic number based on the total possible auto-attack DPS; this is why the value changes when you swap your dual-wield weapons from one hand to the other. It's factoring in the 60% miss rate of the off-hand weapon. If you put your larger Avg Damage weapon in your off-hand, the melee efficiency number is lower than if you put the larger Avg Damage weapon in your main hand.
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  18. #43

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    In the case of a Captain, however, the situation changes.

    If a target has 500 hitpoints remaining, and you're using a 2.0 speed weapon with an average damage of 20, with Defensive Strike dealing main-hand + 10, then it will take 25 seconds to kill the foe with a 100% hit, 0% critical rate.

    If I use a 3.0 speed weapon with 30 average damage, with Defensive Strike dealing main-hand + 15, then it will take only 20 seconds to kill the foe with a 100% hit, 0% critical rate. This results in us taking less damage, using less power, and dealing more damage over a shorter period with a slower, higher average damage weapon.

    In addition, the slower, higher average damage weapon will result in far bigger criticals on Devastating Blow, and give a better result with Pressing Attack when using Revealing Mark. Since both those abilities are also on lengthy cooldowns, the slower weapon has the advantage.

    For a class which is able to use attack abilities on a chain with little to no pause, I can see your point, but in the case of the Captain, that is not reality.

  19. #44

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by DarrettTeldemari View Post
    In the case of a Captain, however, the situation changes.

    If a target has 500 hitpoints remaining, and you're using a 2.0 speed weapon with an average damage of 20, with Defensive Strike dealing main-hand + 10, then it will take 25 seconds to kill the foe with a 100% hit, 0% critical rate.

    If I use a 3.0 speed weapon with 30 average damage, with Defensive Strike dealing main-hand + 15, then it will take only 20 seconds to kill the foe with a 100% hit, 0% critical rate. This results in us taking less damage, using less power, and dealing more damage over a shorter period with a slower, higher average damage weapon.

    In addition, the slower, higher average damage weapon will result in far bigger criticals on Devastating Blow, and give a better result with Pressing Attack when using Revealing Mark. Since both those abilities are also on lengthy cooldowns, the slower weapon has the advantage.

    For a class which is able to use attack abilities on a chain with little to no pause, I can see your point, but in the case of the Captain, that is not reality.
    I see what you're trying to say, but again, you're somewhat conflating the speed bonus to +damage with the Avg Damage bonus to the "one main hand swing" component of Defensive Strike. You're also conflating the higher max damage (that usually accompanies a higher Avg Damage) that benefits the criticals on Devastating Blow, because criticals are based on the max damage of the weapon.

    This is why my guide is a bit fuzzy in the way it says "if you're primarily using attack skills with these types of properties" as its major guidelines.

    If you played a Captain a different way, relying on different skills, you might find other weapon properties more useful. In other words, the weapon guidelines shouldn't be applied blindly to any class. Some classes have defining characteristics, such as burglars having many skills that use the Max Damage of weapon, so you can make some generalizations in that regard, but even for Burglars the Max Damage might not be important depending on how they play their Burglar and what skills they use most.

    This is why I keep trying to emphasize that it's not really the fact that you're a Captain that makes any real difference--instead, it's the fact that you rely on the attack skills and play style that you prefer that makes the real difference in which weapon stats are most important to you.
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  20. #45

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Shannong View Post
    I see what you're trying to say, but again, you're somewhat conflating the speed bonus to +damage with the Avg Damage bonus to the "one main hand swing" component of Defensive Strike. You're also conflating the higher max damage (that usually accompanies a higher Avg Damage) that benefits the criticals on Devastating Blow, because criticals are based on the max damage of the weapon.

    This is why my guide is a bit fuzzy in the way it says "if you're primarily using attack skills with these types of properties" as its major guidelines.

    If you played a Captain a different way, relying on different skills, you might find other weapon properties more useful. In other words, the weapon guidelines shouldn't be applied blindly to any class. Some classes have defining characteristics, such as burglars having many skills that use the Max Damage of weapon, so you can make some generalizations in that regard, but even for Burglars the Max Damage might not be important depending on how they play their Burglar and what skills they use most.

    This is why I keep trying to emphasize that it's not really the fact that you're a Captain that makes any real difference--instead, it's the fact that you rely on the attack skills and play style that you prefer that makes the real difference in which weapon stats are most important to you.
    Actually, Captains only have a few attack skills. There is no other choice for what skills to use. If I choose not to use Defensive Strike, then I get to use Cutting Attack (20s cooldown) and Devastating Blow (Or Pressing Attack, shared cooldown as part of a Battle-Shout chain. Also, 20s cooldown.

    There is simply no way for a Captain to rely on different skills. If you're referring to a setup as a healer/buffer Captain, then it doesn't matter what weapon you use at all, as you won't be entering melee combat.

    The reason I use both Average damage and Speed as an indicator is that they both come into play in combat. Average damage will determine your output with auto-attacks, which make up a good portion of your attack damage, as well as the initial "100% of main weapon damage" portion of Defensive Strike. Speed will increase your +damage component of skills, which is included in a weapon choice. Of course you're not going to take a slow weapon with significantly lower damage-per-swing than a fast weapon, but if you're looking at weaponry with the exact same average damage, the slow weapon will outperform the fast weapon for a Captain.

    In order to achieve maximum damage for minimum power as a Captain, there is no choice but a slow, high damage, two-handed weapon.

  21. #46

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Regarding the interplay between skills and auto-attacks: I noticed on my guardian that I have a few skills that do not seem to influence the auto-attack at all, notably, the skills explicitly designated as 'fast' in the tooltip. These are 'Retaliation' and the 'sting' skill.

    Regarding the weapon choice: The higher level I get, the more power consumption becomes an issue rather than threat output. I've gone for slower weapons since pacing is easier with them; 2.0-2.2 is most beneficial for me at the moment.

  22. #47
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    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Two questions:

    On dual wield, is the average really the effective speed? So, for example, if I have one 2.3 wep and one 1.7 wep, they are both 2.0 weps in all scenarios? I.e. auto-attacks, special skill cooldowns, special skill multiplies, etc. To clarify, they would be identical to two 2.0 weps with identical other characteristics?

    For the multipliers (like %MH + X), are you sure the X is not based on damage (whether avg or max) rather than weapon speed? If I have a 2.0 15dps wep and a 2.0 10dps wep, will X be the same? I am rather dubious, because I have been noticing my X go up and I have been using the same speed weapons, just doing more damage.

    Otherwise, great work. The off hand damage reduction info was especially useful.

  23. #48
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    213

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Question 1: No, the averaging ONLY affects auto-attacks, so in essence this system doesn't really affect you in any way at all.

    Question 2: X is primarily based on your level. Weapons speeds will cause it to vary within a given level, but you can certainly expect the overall value to increase as you progress independent of weapon choice.
    48 Burglar, Elendilmir, proud member of the [url=http://www.graycouncil.net][color=gray]Gray Council of Arnor[/color][/url]

  24. #49

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurimar View Post
    Question 1: No, the averaging ONLY affects auto-attacks, so in essence this system doesn't really affect you in any way at all.

    Question 2: X is primarily based on your level. Weapons speeds will cause it to vary within a given level, but you can certainly expect the overall value to increase as you progress independent of weapon choice.
    Aurimar has the right of it on both counts, except I wouldn't phrase answer 1 as "..ONLY affects auto-attacks..." Speed does affect how quickly the "ticks" of your auto-attacks occur, yes, but Speed also affects how quickly you can chain your weapon-based attack skills. Assuming the skill cooldowns are faster than the averaged Speed of your two weapons, you will be able to chain your attack skills at the averaged Speed.
    [color=orange][b]We. Not me.[/b][/color] Every American should see Sicko.

    [b][color=red]Monika[/color][/b] (formerly [b][color=pink]Red Monika[/color][/b] from AC and AC2) [b][color=pink]Landroval[/color][/b] server - [url=http://kwl.guildportal.com]Knights of the White Lady[/url]

  25. #50
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    334

    Re: A complete guide to choosing your weapons

    Thanks for the quick replies. So, basically, if I want to DW and don't care at all about auto attacks, I should probably do the following:

    It seems clear that I should put my hardest hitting weapon in my main hand. For the off hand, should I try to get one that brings the average speed of the two in line with the cooldown of my specials and provides some good buffs over damage, or should I still consider damage the most important factor? I am thinking not as most of my skills as a champion focus on the main hand, as it looks like other DW classes do.

    I'm almost thinking I put a dagger in the off hand just to help me build fervour as fast as possible, because as a champion, I have multiple attack skills to choose from so cooldown is not as important as available fervour. Or did I read it wrong and the cooldown of the used skill will prevent use of another skill? I haven't seemed to notice this myself. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember using specials while others were recovering.

 

 
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