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  1. #1

    How much threat do your skills generate ?

    Hello everyone !

    I've finally taken the time to come up with how much damage-equivalent threat is generated by various guardian's skills.

    I did the following :
    Enter Filikul with a champion and a guardian. The guardian was traited blue-line, without spending too many points in the trait trees so that there would be no on-block heals as that would generate threat, with auto-attacks (AA) deactivated. To check for different Shield Use Rating on certain skills, a belt was equiped. I used a 3rd age one to have no +x% to Perceived Threat (PT) / Threat Input Modifier for Taunt.
    - The guardian use the skill being tested (n) times, and I write down total damage done recorded by Combat Analysis (labeled "damage" in spreadsheet tabs).
    - The champion hits with only auto-attacks, until he grabs aggro from guardian. Get a rough number, then repeat annd swap to a lvl 17 weapon before getting aggro to get more precise numbers. Write down the highest damage before getting aggro and the lowest after (labeled "threat inf" and "threat sup" in spreadsheet tabs). The equivalent threat generated by the guardian is in that range.
    This is repeated for different values of damage and/or number of times the skill is used.

    For skills that are expected not to have an "Threat = B x damage " relation I expected "Threat = A + B x damage " (basically, expecting a fixed threat component on top of damage one). To solve this I did the test described above with different weapons, varying the nimber of times the skill is used with each weapon. The math used to solve A and B are indicated in spreadsheet screenshots.

    Notes :
    - There is a possibility that the level of the enemy has an influence on generated threat. This is not covered here. I do not believe it is the case, but you never know.
    - If have not checked for different Physical (and Tactical) Mastery values. If they have an effect, it is not covered here. These tests were done with roughly 23-24k PM & TM


    For those not interested in detailed breakdown, those are the results :
    Some skills generate threat only through damage with a multiplier coefficient, some have a fixed threat component instead or in addition.
    The multiplier affecting the damage component is fixed for every skills, and is roughly equal to 4.47. Basically every samage inflicted on a target will generate 4.47 threat.

    AA, Guardian's Ward Tactics (GW), Stagger, Sting, Retaliation, Whirling Retaliation Threat = 4.47 x dmg
    Sweeping Cut Threat = 4.47 x dmg + 4600
    Vexing Blow Threat = 4.47 x dmg + 9165
    War Chant Threat = 4.47 x dmg + 17700
    Shield-Blow Threat = 4.47 x dmg + 12490
    Shield-Swipe Threat = 4.47 x dmg + 3840
    Shield-Taunt Threat = 22600
    Bash Threat = 4.47 x dmg + 8650
    Shield-Smash Threat = 4.47 x dmg + 12490
    Engage & Challenge Threat = 8.85 x [copied threat]
    Frey The Edge Threat = 8.85 x [copied threat] + 15775
    Litany of Defiance Threat = 2950


    Quick note regarding self-healing as I have not taken the time to check this more precisely through Warrior's Heart, but it would seem that self-heal generates about 2 threat point per moral point healed, but only 1 threat point per morale heal in case of overheal.

    Concerning threat copies, not it seems only to copy the highest threat that is not yours. Basically if you've been off-tanking a mob that no one has been damaging, using Engage/Challenge/Frey The Edge is pretty pointless.


    Post 1 : Base attacks, Sweeping Cut, Vexing Blow, War Chant
    Post 2 : Shield Skills
    Post 3 : Threat Copies and Litany of Defiance




    Last edited by Gabli; Nov 26 2015 at 08:26 AM.

  2. #2
    I. Base Attacks

    In this category enter : AA, Guardian's Ward Tactics (GW), Stagger, Sting, Retaliation, Whirling Retaliation (possibly Smashing Stab too, but I have not tested this)
    The skills in this category are those that generate threat only through damage, with a linear relation between threat and damage. For AA and GW I also tried with a 2nd age belt that had a +3% PT bonus.
    Results are here :



    The "with +3%PT" line indicates expedcted values while wearing a 2dn age belt with said bonus.
    As shown below however, It seems that such a bonus only gives about +1% PT. It seems to me that Perceived Threat is bugged. Either it does not have expected influence or has no effect at
    all, and the 1% difference we see is from the gained mastery (2nd age belt had some mounts/gems/runes while 3rd age had none), which then would influence generated threat more than by amplifiying damage, but also amplifying the multiplier coefficient.





    II. Sweeping Cut



    III. Vexing Blow



    IV. War Chant



    Last edited by Gabli; Nov 26 2015 at 08:24 AM.

  3. #3
    V. Shield-Blow



    VI. Shield-Swipe



    VII. Shield-Taunt



    VIII. Bash



    IX. Shield-Smash

    Last edited by Gabli; Nov 26 2015 at 08:36 AM.

  4. #4
    X. Threat Copy skills



    XI. Litany of Defiance

    Last edited by Gabli; Nov 26 2015 at 08:40 AM.

  5. #5
    Shouldnt the taunts give you an additional 20% to "catch up"?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Findun View Post
    Shouldnt the taunts give you an additional 20% to "catch up"?
    People used to beleive that threat copies put you 1st in threat list with a 20% lead, meaning your threat would be : Threat = copied_threat * (1 + 20/100).

    Tests indicate the lead is not +20%, but +785% (plus about 15k for Frey The Edge). Basically if you Engage/Challenge/FtE a mob that is down to 90% health, it is extremely unlikey that you will lose aggro even if you do nothing.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabli View Post
    [...] Basically if you Engage/Challenge/FtE a mob that is down to 90% health, it is extremely unlikey that you will lose aggro even if you do nothing.
    Unless another guardian uses Engage/Challenge/FtE, right?

  8. #8
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    Great intel, thanks for taking the time to put this together.

    This confirms the feelings i already had about which skills generated most threat (with a few surprises though, like sweeping cut giving bonus agro).
    Sadly this also confirms how broken force taunts are.

  9. #9
    Hehe, i've speculated a long time now that force taunts are broken. This just proves it but Turbine probably would say that it's WAI
    Btw, i wonder if same thing happens in Yellow and even Red line ?

  10. #10
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    Great work! Thanks for taking the time
    Some interesting data there - now I know why War Chant always felt so great for tanking... basically our most aggro generating skill (apart from force taunts/copies).
    Also very interesting to see that Sweeping Cut has a threat component. Didn't expect that.
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  11. #11
    Great work Gabli! I am probably going to do up a better reply but I'm still quite upset about my forced taunt discovery... I used to take great pride in being a Litany Guard, now.. meh...

  12. #12
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    Gabli,

    Thanks a lot for this interesting analysis! As the others, I was surprised to see that Sweeping Cut is generating threat... Maybe I put now more additional attention to it's bleeding component... Also, I was kind of surprised to see Vexing Blow generates a - at least decent - amount of threat. Did I miss here something or is this supposed to be like that? And yes, the results for Forced Taunts are disappointing. Well, at last Shield Taunt seems to work as it is supposed to be.

    You said that "The guardian was traited blue-line, without spending too many points in the trait trees so that there would be no on-block heals as that would generate threat". Is that something measurable, I mean the threat created by Guardian self heals? And what about Catch a Breath? Does it create threat?

    Thanks again and looking forward seeing more analysis like that!

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinuil View Post
    Gabli,

    Thanks a lot for this interesting analysis! As the others, I was surprised to see that Sweeping Cut is generating threat... Maybe I put now more additional attention to it's bleeding component... Also, I was kind of surprised to see Vexing Blow generates a - at least decent - amount of threat. Did I miss here something or is this supposed to be like that? And yes, the results for Forced Taunts are disappointing. Well, at last Shield Taunt seems to work as it is supposed to be.

    You said that "The guardian was traited blue-line, without spending too many points in the trait trees so that there would be no on-block heals as that would generate threat". Is that something measurable, I mean the threat created by Guardian self heals? And what about Catch a Breath? Does it create threat?

    Thanks again and looking forward seeing more analysis like that!
    Quote from Gabli's post:
    Quick note regarding self-healing as I have not taken the time to check this more precisely through Warrior's Heart, but it would seem that self-heal generates about 2 threat point per moral point healed, but only 1 threat point per morale heal in case of overheal.

    In short this would mean every self heal generates threat.

    Also vexing blow always had an extra threat component, even before trait trees. I don't think it's mentioned anymore in the tooltip but i've always had the feeling it still generated extra threat after trait trees.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martinuil View Post
    Gabli,

    Thanks a lot for this interesting analysis! As the others, I was surprised to see that Sweeping Cut is generating threat... Maybe I put now more additional attention to it's bleeding component... Also, I was kind of surprised to see Vexing Blow generates a - at least decent - amount of threat. Did I miss here something or is this supposed to be like that? And yes, the results for Forced Taunts are disappointing. Well, at last Shield Taunt seems to work as it is supposed to be.

    You said that "The guardian was traited blue-line, without spending too many points in the trait trees so that there would be no on-block heals as that would generate threat". Is that something measurable, I mean the threat created by Guardian self heals? And what about Catch a Breath? Does it create threat?

    Thanks again and looking forward seeing more analysis like that!
    These always generated threat. Only difference is that now tanking line has clear modifer on your healing and dps threat.

  15. #15
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    Thumbs up

    Yes, I remember well the pre-hd tooltip of Vexing Blow.

    Thanks for your time and excellent analysis Gabli!

  16. #16
    Much appreciated! And at the same time a bit disappointed with Shield Smash not being on top.

    Care to redo the test/part with War-Chant and Shield Smash fully traited (max. targets 8/7 respectively, no melee targets +5)? SS always hits for 15 - 20k+ on multiple targets, while WC only max. 5k. Based on my runs SS should out-threat WC easily, as its doing more damage ... but apparently its not.

    I wonder what the point is, to improve your mits/stats beyond soft cap ... when all you have is to spam War Chant - FTG and Chall. + Engage to copy and put you back on spot 1 ... no need to taunt or shield smash, no sweeping cut, nor vexing blow no more. With +5 force aggro +5 from 2x jewellery .... you will never loose aggro at all on 10 targets. If so then, why not simply add lots morale to your tank (50000) and increase your incoming healing beyond 40% and have everything statwise somewhat within the range (decent), if all you have to do is spam WC, Chall. FTG and Engage (ST) .... rinse and repeat.
    Last edited by entername; Nov 27 2015 at 09:13 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by entername View Post
    Much appreciated! And at the same time a bit disappointed with Shield Smash not being on top.

    Care to redo the test/part with War-Chant and Shield Smash fully traited (max. targets 8/7 respectively, no melee targets +5)? SS always hits for 15 - 20k+ on multiple targets, while WC only max. 5k. Based on my runs SS should out-threat WC easily, as its doing more damage ... but apparently its not.
    If you do enough damage with Shield Smash, of course it will produce more threat than War Chant. Where do you read that it isn't?
    Dobb - Hobbit Burglar
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  18. #18
    original post http://pastebin.com/v8ptEcHc

    At spicy

    For some reason i went with <base damage skill> x 4.47 + X and not with damage delt x 4.47. my bad
    Last edited by entername; Nov 27 2015 at 10:13 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by entername View Post
    Base damage / Threat (not traited iirc)

    War Chant Threat = 4.47 x dmg + 17700

    Shield-Smash Threat = 4.47 x dmg + 12490

    %41 between the two (single target) add +40% light damage legacy and if traited (aoe targets)... it should be out of reach. Hence my inquiry, im not sure if shield damage + shield smash legacy can make up for it. I know that SS has a base dmg of 5000? and WC only 2500 (w/o legacy)... im just wondering if WC remains on top, if both skills are traited max. targets (+legacies max rank).
    I think you're a bit confused about how it works, i'll try to explain with a simple example (single target, mutiple targets is the same principle).

    Lets say your warchant crits for 5k. The amount of threat generated will be: 4.47 x 5000 + 17700 = 40050
    Now lets say your shield-smash crits for 12k. The amount of threat genereated will be: 4.47 x 12000 + 12490 = 66130

    These are made up numbers, but i think you get where am going, because in general shield-smash will hit harder than war-chant and thus generate more threat because of the multiplier.
    I personally am a big fan of war chant because of its huge range and it's less likely to get avoided as it only has a resist check (not 100% sure about this), whereas SS has to pass B/P/E check.

  20. #20
    For those curious about the taunt thing...

    lvl 105 Guardian | 105 Mini | 64 Hunter | 48 Warden | Lukiluk - r10 Warg | r6 Defiler | r6 WL

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  21. #21
    Bumping this thread since it has quite a bit of value to new guards.
    ~ I tank with a Beorning, my opinion is invalid. ~

  22. #22
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    Bump

    Yep. Bumped

  23. #23
    Is this still valid after last update (22.2) ?
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markbjorn View Post
    Is this still valid after last update (22.2) ?
    Formulas themselves haven't changed, multiplier is still the same I think.

    However, shield-taunt will have to be tested somehow....

 

 

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