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  1. #51
    On the matter of the Advanced single-target rotation

    Grouping with other RK's:

    There can only be one Searing Words per tier no matter how many runekeepers there are. That alone makes this rotation less useful.

    Another problem is that you can't know for sure anymore which tiers of Searing Words are active, unless:

    A) they rush to t3 Writ. But they might proc random tiers on the way.
    B) all runekeepers are in sync, upgrading the Writ tier everytime Searing Words procs
    C) you mouse over all the dots. Can be tricky in large groups because they move a lot.
    D) there's a plugin which can keep track of all dots from all players on a target. I'd appreciate suggestions if anyone knows one.

    I'd just use the conventional rotation whenever there are other RK's. On average it's not very far behind the advanced rotation even as the only runekeeper.


    Notes on the rotation:

    - Starts with Distracting Flame. Essential to get mitigation debuffs before the big initial hits of Essay + Essence and also slightly buffs their damage, so this just about compensates for the shorter Essay of Fire. Also gives captains and debuffers more time.
    - Essay + Essence at the start, mainly for attunement. Essay + Ridicule is on average slightly more damaging, but if the mit debuff procs after Essay (50% of the time) they're even.


    Notes on the guidelines

    - How long to wait with Writs?
    Searing Words does the equivalent of 21000 tooltip damage in Osgiliath (post #47). Proc chance per skill is 20% which is 13% more than the 7% you'd get if the skill had been used after t3. So you gain 2730 damage per skill that you wait.

    Every Writ which gets replaced by Fiery Ridicule is a loss of 2000 damage in initial hit dps and mit debuff uptime (post #47). For t1 you also have to take the dot into account, about 3000 tooltip damage per tick. (Writ tiers/Searing Words tiers only make a 7%/4% difference so I'm treating them all the same)


    For t1 you could wait 20s and cut 4 Writs out of your rotation which would be a loss of 23000 damage. In that time you use 8 fire skills which are a gain of 21800 damage. So the average damage from Searing Words keeps up with Writ's dot, but Searing Words has higher max dps when there are lucky procs. So it's better to wait until Searing Words procs before using the first Writ. (equal average dps, higher max dps)

    For t2 and t3 you can cut 10 Writs per tier out of your rotation which would be a loss of 20000 damage. This takes at least 40s, enough time for 16 fire skills which are worth 43700 damage in Searing Words. So delaying t2 and t3 is always worth it.


    There is no cut-off point where you should use a Writ to 'cut your losses'. If Searing Words didn't proc after some time, the odds are still the same as before: the next 10 Writs or the next 4 Writs + 20s of dot damage vs the damage you get for proccing Searing Words. RNG doesn't care about the past.



    - Would it be a good idea to let Writs tier down?
    Not at all because you'd have to stop using Writs for a long time: both in the 28s it takes to tier down and then when trying to proc Searing Words. One Searing Words is worth 21000 damage while already 28s worth of Writs (~8) are worth 16000 damage in initial hits and procs.

    Ofc if you have to stop attacking anyway it's an advantage when the Writ tier decreases on its own.


    - How long does Searing Words take to proc?

    1 fire skill -> combined proc chance is 20%
    2 -> 36%
    3 -> 49%
    4 -> 59%
    5 -> 67%
    6 -> 74%
    7 -> 79%
    8 -> 83%
    9 -> 87% etc., 1 - (0.8 to the power of skill #)

    Half of all procs happen within 3 skills (the median).
    The average is 5 skills, based on 20% proc chance.
    This rotation uses a skill every 2.5s, so it takes on avg. 37.5s to reach t3 of Writ.


    - Fiery Ridicule or Distracting Flame to proc Searing Words?
    Distracting Flame does no damage but can get you to t3 faster so that you can start Writ-spam earlier. The below assumes you use nothing but Fiery Ridicule or Distracting Flame to reach t3.

    Time difference:
    Fiery Ridicule can be used every ~2.5s. At 20% proc chance it takes on average 12.5s per tier.
    Distracting Flame can be used every ~1.5s. At 20% proc chance it takes on average 7.5s per tier, saving 15s in total.

    Damage difference:
    Each Distracting Flame loses 3000 damage compared to if the time was used for Fiery Ridicule. You need to use on avg 15 fire skills to reach t3, so the damage difference is 45000.

    Comparison:
    - If Distracting Flame reached t3 15s earlier it would lose 45000 damage to Fiery Ridicule.
    - Each Writ that replaces Fiery Ridicule is worth 2000 damage in initial hits and +uptime for mit debuff/Searing Words.
    - So you'd have to use 23 Writs in 15s of a normal rotation to make up for the damage lost by Distracting Flame.
    - But you can only use around 4 Writs in that time, so Distracting Flame fails to recover most of the damage it loses to Fiery Ridicule.

    Therefore, if time allows, use Fiery Ridicule instead of Distracting Flame for proccing Searing Words.
    Last edited by Dragofer; Aug 17 2017 at 11:55 AM.

  2. #52
    Formerly Stats Value Table, replaced by post #89
    Last edited by Dragofer; Jun 16 2016 at 01:00 PM.

  3. #53
    Formerly Stats Value Table, replaced by post #89
    Last edited by Dragofer; Jun 16 2016 at 01:00 PM.

  4. #54
    Should critical be overcapped in u18? (Fire RK)

    The new mastery cap is +400% at 148149 rating in u18, much more than before. The formula follows a straight line of 370.4 rating per 1%, but there are still diminishing returns:
    - adding 10% mastery, or 3700 rating, to 100%+0% is a 10% dps increase
    - adding 10% mastery, or 3700 rating, to 100%+400% (cap) is a 2% dps increase.
    You can get much higher mastery now, so you can also get much bigger diminishing returns on mastery.

    Maybe overcapping criticals is a better way of increasing dps past a certain amount of mastery?


    % dps increase for 9350 mastery

    This depends on how much mastery you already have.

    Going from 138799 to 148149 increases tactical damage from 100%+374.8% to 100%+400.0% which is a dps increase of 5.3%
    Going from 80000 to 89350 increases tactical damage from 100%+216.0% to 100%+241.2% which is a dps increase of 8.0%


    % dps increase for 9350 overcapped critical rating

    The new critical cap is 17685. If you then slot 25x supreme mastery essences you get 9350 more critical rating, which gives you a total of 27035.
    Wiki: Rating to Percentage Formula has formulae which accurately calculate that 17685 critical has +36.0% multiplier and 27035 critical has +46.2% multiplier.

    Base critical multiplier is 50%, no other multipliers for RK's, so critical multiplier goes from 186.0% to 196.2%. Add 50% for devastates. This can be converted into dps like below:

    For enemies with 0 crit defence, which will be the smallest % dps increase:
    67% noncrit chance x 100.0% crit multiplier = 0.67
    30% crit chance x 186.0% crit multiplier = 0.56
    3% dev chance x 236.0% dev multiplier = 0.07
    Total 'dps' = 1.30

    With the higher critical multipliers:
    67% x 100.0%
    30% x 196.2%
    3% x 246.2%
    Total 'dps' = 1.33
    dps increase of 2.5%


    For enemies with 86% critical defence, which will be the biggest % dps increase:
    67% x 100.0%
    30% x 100.0%
    3% x 150.0%
    Total 'dps' = 1.015

    67% x 100.0%
    30% x 110.2%
    3% x 160.2%
    Total 'dps' = 1.049
    dps increase of 3.3%


    Bottom line

    - 9350 mastery is worth at least 5.3% dps and and in the neighbourhood of 8.0% for people who have balanced builds.
    - 9350 critical over the cap is worth between 2.5% and 3.3% dps depending on critical defence (0-86%), so always inferior to mastery.
    - Overcapped critical rating is about a third as effective as mastery (so 1200 overcapped critical is worth 400 mastery)

    So overcapping critical only makes sense when you have 148149 mastery.


    Bonus: 7.5% dev multiplier relics

    Assuming 17685 crit rating and that the enemy has 50% crit defence:
    67% x 100%
    30% x 136%
    3% x 186%
    Total dps = 1.1338 without dev multiplier settings

    67% x 100%
    30% x 136%
    3% x 201%
    Total dps = 1.1383 with dev multiplier settings
    dps increase of 0.4% for both

    Compared to Relic of the North which trades 15% dev multiplier for 660 morale and 3232 incoming heals:
    660 morale x 1.63 = 1076 mastery
    At 90k mastery: dps increase of 0.8% + 3232 incoming heals for both
    Last edited by Dragofer; Apr 14 2016 at 09:10 AM.

  5. #55
    Is the +2 pulses set worth it at level 105?

    Revised based on post #89, Stat Values Table.

    The new best armour is the 4-slot Biting Wit set. Assuming you were using robust will and mastery essences and need tact mit, the mastery equivalent per piece is:
    (80 will x 8.43) + (391 morale x 1.35) + (4 slots x 1630) times 2 = 15464 mastery

    The mastery equivalent of a level 105 DoS piece + Robe is:
    (400 will x 8.43) + 884 mastery + (884 crit x 0.85) + (100 vit x 4.05) +
    (400 will x 8.43) + 1768 mastery + (100 fate x 2.56) = 10808 mastery

    The difference in mastery for getting the set bonus is -4656 rating, or 12.6% tooltip.


    Using the same method as at level 100 (making use of Biting Wit set bonus/tact damage trait/attack tome for another 20% tact mastery):
    - Extra tick of Essay is worth 4.0% dps
    - Extra mastery from Biting Wit is worth 5.2% dps at 45k mastery (morale-stacking build with 2x offense armour)
    - Extra mastery from Biting Wit is worth 3.4% dps at 91k mastery (maxed t2c build)
    - Extra mastery from Biting Wit is worth 3.1% dps at 103k mastery (maxed glass cannon build)


    Bottom line

    The first extra tick of Essay of Fire on its own offsets the mastery difference. Osgiliath 2-piece set continues to be effective.
    Last edited by Dragofer; Jun 17 2016 at 12:58 PM.

  6. #56

    Exclamation

    Difference made by upgrading from level 100 gear to level 105 gear


    Upgrading Essences

    Mastery equivalents of each essence as per post #52
    1229 - level 100 teal essence
    1239 - level 100 supreme essence
    1369 - level 105 teal essence
    1630 - level 105 supreme essence

    Number of level 105 slots with 4x Biting Wit, 2x Osgiliath class set, 3x Osgiliath jewels, 4x Absent jewels, 1x Hilt: 36 slots

    Upgrading 36 teal essences from level 100 to 105 is a difference of 5040 mastery.
    Upgrading 36 supreme essences from level 100 to 105 is a difference of 14076 mastery.
    Upgrading 36 teal essences to supreme is a difference of 14436 mastery.


    Upgrading gear

    Edit: shortened this part

    There's no real reason to get new level 105 gear pieces but use level 100 essences in them, because there's not much difference between i.e.:
    - Nadhins with 119 will and 4 lvl 100 essences
    - Biting Wit with 80 will, 391 morale and 4 lvl 100 essences.

    The 2-piece set bonus of Biting Wit is worth getting in all cases (worth 3703 mastery), but the actual base stats of the newer gear don't make much of a difference.


    Therefore, most of the stat increases in u18 will come from level 105 essences, and the main motive for getting level 105 gear is to slot level 105 essences.
    Last edited by Dragofer; Jun 17 2016 at 01:01 PM.

  7. #57
    Thank you very much for the detailed analysation and explanation, in addition to it being so short after the release of the new update - it is as always very helpful and much appreciated.

    My equippment at lvl 100 is or was the +2 dot-pulse armour, plus the 5 slot-armour with full mastery which I would swap with 5 slot-armour with full morale for instances where it was needed. That way I could be more or less full glass canon with ~80k mastery and ~17k morale, or over 30k morale fully buffed - and I plan to equipp that way again. I was thinking to get about 8 supreme mastery to make up for the two supreme crit I had on lvl 100 to almost reach the new cap (plus buff food or captain buffs) and fill the rest with supreme masterful will for my glas cannon set. Then also get armour with just morale to swap with will armour pieces for harder instances. For damage I dont need critical defence (that's why I plan to take the supreme mastery instead of simply supreme crit - and if I still need critical defence I can swap with a jewellery piece), and I am already almost at the cap for tactical mitigation which I will reach through the supreme will essences (or through buff food/warding lore). That's why I came to the conclusion that just supreme robust will probably isn't the optimal choice in my case.

    What do you think about that? Did you calculate for having only one set of armour?

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragofer View Post
    7x2 from jewels
    Wouldn't it be better to get the level 105 versions of the 3 slot osgiliath jewelry?

    So it would be 3x3(2 bracelets and the necklace from osgiliath) + 2x4(2 slot jewels for both rings and both earrings)

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by legofreak11 View Post
    Wouldn't it be better to get the level 105 versions of the 3 slot osgiliath jewelry?

    So it would be 3x3(2 bracelets and the necklace from osgiliath) + 2x4(2 slot jewels for both rings and both earrings)
    I didn't think about those, possibly because for some reason if there was no new Faramir's there wouldn't be new Osgiliath jewels. Anyway, I haven't seen new level 105 Osgiliath jewels yet and didn't find them on the wiki or forums anywhere, but thanks for the reminder. Assuming Osgiliath jewels got an 11% raise in base stats just as the class armour did:


    Osgiliath jewels:
    (280 will x 8.43) + (3 slots x 1630) = 7250 mastery
    (140 will x 8.43) + (140 vit x 4.05) + (3 slots x 1630) = 6637 mastery

    Compared to 2-slot Absent Friends jewels:
    (214 will x 8.43) + (757 morale x 1.35) + (778 mits x 0.43 x 2) + (2 slots x 1630) = 6755 mastery

    The 280 will jewels have a slight edge in stat quantity and also more control over how the stats are distributed - you aren't forced to have 1576 mit and 757 morale on each piece. So they're clearly better than the new 2-slots.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethroin View Post
    What do you think about that? Did you calculate for having only one set of armour?
    Thanks for bringing up your example - so far this has been about finding out how optimal in theory each of the new essences and gear items are. I appreciate that you share your approach in actually making a build with swap pieces out of that.

    What ought to have been said at the beginning is that the aim was a balanced build that gets the highest amount of mastery while still hitting all the other stat requirements. But a glass cannon build also has its place for a class like the RK. You'd then need a swap system between these two builds which is essence-efficient and allows you to adjust each stat individually. Here are some views on how to square these requirements.

    Edit: shortened and brought in line with more recent posts.


    Mastery essences

    Quoting from another thread:

    In general:
    - mass use of mastery essences would give far too much crit. Overcapping crit is ineffective (post #54), and you don't have good enough options for turning that excess crit into mastery.
    - using mastery essences to avoid critical essences makes no sense because 374 crit is worth the same as 940 crit def and both are needed. But you'd be using fewer robust wills and end up slotting more supreme morales with 42 fate.
    In a maxed 23k morale t2c build:
    Most recently, it turned out that a maxed build needs just ~20 robust wills to get enough morale for a pre-u18 t2c and has space for 10 masterful will or mastery essences. This means my earlier point, that mastery essences mean fewer robust wills, more 42-fates and therefore no extra mastery, no longer stands in that kind of build.

    The question then is: masterful will + crit or masterful will + mastery? What that comes down to is whether you prefer 149 will or 1310 mastery. A different way to put it is, would you slot essences which give 4250 resist in physical instances and ~8500 resist in tactical instances?


    Some things to tip the balance:
    - if you have the tact mit passive, you'd already be slightly overcapped on tact mit. So it'll always be 4250 resistance per 'essence'.
    - resistance is already almost capped in this build, so there are strong diminishing returns.
    - mastery essences can be swapped well with morale essences, because 1 mastery + 3 will has the same amount of crit as 4 morale. So the crit on morale essences doesn't go to waste.
    - mastery essences spend fewer resources on resistance and crit defence. In glass-cannon this is a boost of about 750 mastery per avoided critical essence.


    Considering all of this, personally I'd now use mastery essences instead of masterful will until crit is capped. And I'd have max 1 mastery essence per gear piece (see 3rd point above).


    Beyond crit cap, though, I would no longer use them. When you need to replace 1200 crit relics with 900 mastery relics in order to use the 374 crit effectively (crit overcap isn't effective), then the 374 crit is only worth 281 mastery. That makes mastery essences give the same mastery as masterful will but no resistance.

    Gear setup

    See post #68 - U18 Build-making for my more recent approach to creating builds with swap items.
    Last edited by Dragofer; Jun 17 2016 at 01:08 PM.

  10. #60
    Again thank you very much for calculating the differences for different builds.

    I haven't gotten a new 105 Osgiliath 3-slot jewellery piece for myself, but if I remember correctly it had indeed 280 mainstat on it. Probably going to ask my kin mate to post it so I can make a screenshot.

    Regarding the different slot-armour: I assume you got them from the bullroarer? Unfortunately the boni have been swapped for live which makes me a bit sad because the 4-slot is clearly better for me, however I would have very much liked the Flurry of Words one for the group/raid.



    Edit: Don't know why it doesn't show the screenshot directly, but you should still be able to open the website with it.
    Last edited by Ethroin; Apr 15 2016 at 06:27 AM.

  11. #61
    I think the way you calculated the worth of essences is slightly off due to including the Fate stat on Supreme Morales into the calculation, that produces an error that affects any calculation based upon it
    Turbines way of giving stats to gear is very linear as far as secondary stats are concerned, but not at all when primary stats are involved. Thus I wouldn't use any primary stat in further calculations

    I always calculate essence stats by dividing them through the primary contribution of a Supreme T8 Essence:

    So for example:
    Mastery Essence:
    1310/1310+374/1310 = 1,285 (both Supreme Mastery and Supreme crit have primary contributions of 1310)
    1310/1310 = 1 (when crit is capped, ignoring multiplier going over cap)
    Robust Will:
    149*8/1310+278/972 = 1,196 (without Tact Mit, thus when capped/T2 overcapped)
    149*8/1310+278/972+149/2949= 1,246 (with Tact Mit)
    Masterful Will:
    149*8/1310+374/1310 = 1,195 (without Tact Mit, thus when capped/T2 overcapped)
    149*8/1310+374/1310+149/2949= 1,246 (with Tact Mit)
    Supreme Morale:
    972/972+42*2,5/1310+42/2949 = 1,094

    Since, as you already said, the secondary stat is ~2/7 of the primary stat that means 7 Robust Will give as much morale as 2 Morale and 5 Mastery
    2*1,094+5*1,285 = 8,613
    7*1,246 = 8,722 (with Mit)
    7*1,196 = 8,372 (without Mit)

    That means:
    -Supreme Mastery is the best essence on it's own
    -The fact that it needs to be combined with Supreme Morale to reach the desired morale pool makes it worse than Robust Will
    -Robust Will should be used primarily to build up your morale pool
    -Supreme Mastery or Supreme Crit or Supreme Crit Defence are a equal (as are all essences that only have secondary stats), all can be used to build crit, though when you reach the desired Crit Defence level only Mastery should be used further
    -Masterful Will should be used once you reach your desired morale and cap crit

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethroin View Post
    Again thank you very much for calculating the differences for different builds.

    I haven't gotten a new 105 Osgiliath 3-slot jewellery piece for myself, but if I remember correctly it had indeed 280 mainstat on it. Probably going to ask my kin mate to post it so I can make a screenshot.

    Regarding the different slot-armour: I assume you got them from the bullroarer? Unfortunately the boni have been swapped for live which makes me a bit sad because the 4-slot is clearly better for me, however I would have very much liked the Flurry of Words one for the group/raid.



    Edit: Don't know why it doesn't show the screenshot directly, but you should still be able to open the website with it.
    Yes, I got the set bonus from Bullroarer - thanks for the headsup, I was able to see the link in the quote text when I started this reply. This shows they really do make changes between beta and live.

    Well then, this makes the gearing situation more complex. Maybe what the RK lacks in rotation complexity it makes up for in gearing complexity.


    Set bonuses comparison

    Armour: Biting Wit, 4-slot / +10% tactical damage

    Mastery equivalent is 7732 mastery per piece.
    2-piece set bonus is worth 3703 mastery.


    Armour: Osgiliath / +2 pulses

    Mastery equivalent is 5404 mastery per piece.
    2-piece set bonus, first extra tick of Essay is worth 4.0% dps, so 5230 mastery at 90k mastery
    [90k mastery = 100% + 243.0% tooltip + 10% trait/attack tome, 4% of that is 14.1% mastery, which is worth 5230 rating]

    The rest is situational, but most likely another 3% in flatout dps and more than that in interrupted dps. So at least another ~3900 mastery for a total of 9150 mastery from the set bonus.


    Armour: Graven Word, 2-slot / +5% Flurry incoming crit

    Mastery equivalent is on avg. 7261 mastery per piece.
    (201 will x 8.43) + (652 morale x 1,35) + 355 mastery + (1599 tact mit x 0.43) + (2 slots x 1630) = 6877 mastery per piece

    With the 4-piece set bonus, Flurry becomes worth using and contributes an average of +5% crit and therefore about +5% dps, so it's situationally worth 6540 mastery at 90k mastery for everyone in the group.


    Which 2-set bonus is strongest and comes first?

    There are 2 choices:
    - 2x Biting Wit for 15464 mastery in stats and 3703 mastery in set bonuses. Total: 19170
    - 2x Osgiliath for 10808 mastery in stats and min. 9150 mastery in set bonuses. Total: 19960

    In flatout dps at 90k mastery they're both equal. In interrupted fights (t2c) or with builds over 90k mastery (glass-cannon/cappy/yellow minstrel) the pulses set has the edge. So pulses comes before Biting Wit.
    [Important to know when you have to decide between either when you want to combine them with a 4-piece set such as audacity gear.]


    4-set bonus or second 2-set bonus?

    There are 2 choices:
    - 2x Osgiliath, 4x Biting Wit for 41740 mastery in stats and 12850 mastery in set bonuses. Total: 54600
    - 2x Osgiliath, 4x Graven for 38320 mastery in stats and 15690 mastery in set bonuses. Total: 54000 for yourself and 6540 per group dps'er, or just 47460 for yourself if you can't use Flurry.

    Flurry set doesn't decrease your own dps, but only if you can get into melee range and use Flurry as much as possible. Everyone else gets a decent buff.
    If you can't use Flurry as much as possible then 4-slot armour is much better.


    Bottom line

    Osgiliath 2-set > Biting Wit 2-set, so the decision becomes whether to combine Osgiliath 2-set with Flurry 4-set or Biting Wit 2-set.

    Solo dps/fellowship: 4x Biting Wit and 2x Osgiliath
    Raid: 4x Flurry set and 2x Osgiliath

    So the Flurry set is for group buffing, giving everyone +5% dps. Technically it doesn't lower your own dps, but only if you use Flurry as much as possible - that makes it suboptimal if you're the only dps. But useful in big groups, especially Thorog.
    Last edited by Dragofer; Jun 17 2016 at 01:26 PM.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    I think the way you calculated the worth of essences is slightly off due to including the Fate stat on Supreme Morales into the calculation, that produces an error that affects any calculation based upon it
    Turbines way of giving stats to gear is very linear as far as secondary stats are concerned, but not at all when primary stats are involved. Thus I wouldn't use any primary stat in further calculations.

    It is possible to use base stats like fate in essence calculations, what's required to do that though is that you convert them into their raw stats.


    Supreme morale has 105 critical rating per essence.
    Every 12.5 morale essences you can get another morale essence by replacing the primary stat of a critical essence.

    Supreme critical has 940 crit def rating per essence.
    Every 3.5 critical essences you can get another critical essence by replacing the primary stat of a critical defence essence.


    972 morale should be equal to 1310 crit, however:
    - if you slot 10 critical essences you get about 3 free essences from the secondary, a total cost of 7 essences
    - if you slot 10 morale essences you get about 1 free essence from the secondary, a total cost of 9 essences

    So getting 9720 morale requires more essence slots than getting 13100 critical, which means 972 morale is more valuable than 1310 crit because of the differences in the secondary stats. For that reason I disagree that you can calculate essence values without considering secondary stats.
    Last edited by Dragofer; Apr 29 2016 at 08:27 PM.

  14. #64
    Use any pair of essences that doesn't involve base stats and the difference will disappear, that's exactly my point

    The difference you calculated is because one essence has the secondary stat fate and those base stats don't follow the same rules as all other stats do

    For example 1 mastery = 1 crit
    1 fate = 1 will
    1 tact mit + 2,5 crit = 1 tact mit + 8 mastery
    2,5 crit = 8 mastery?

    It simply doesn't work with base stats because while they count equally against stat budgets they simply don't provide the same value

    Supreme morale, 972 morale, 42 fate -> 105 crit, 42 mit (=19 crit)
    Supreme critical, 1684 crit
    This simplifies down to 972 morale = 1560 crit.
    The 105+19 crit secondary is worth another 77 morale.
    Supreme morale effectively has 1049 morale.
    That's where your mistake happens, you assumed the value of 1 Supreme crit = 1 Supreme morale, which isn't true due to Fate being involved. It's only the same in terms of stat budgets, not in terms of value. Therefore the calculation 972 morale = 1560 crit and everything that's based on it is wrong. Fate provides a value equal to 124 crit as you calculated, however in Turbine's calculations it's worth 374 crit. Turbine's essence stats aren't fluid, the primary stat is always 7/9 of the stat budget, the secondary stat is 2/9. Just when one of them is a base stat it doesn't contribute as much as the same budget other stats would

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    The difference you calculated is because one essence has the secondary stat fate and those base stats don't follow the same rules as all other stats do.
    Turbine's database says 972 morale = 1310 crit, yes.


    But the reality is that using supreme morale essences to get 972 morale sets your build back by 1560 crit. A supreme morale essence gives you 972 morale + 124 crit worth in fate, while a 'normal' essence could've given you 1310 crit + 374 crit. Which means when a gear piece gives you 972 morale, you can drop a morale essence, get a normal essence and gain 1560 more crit.


    That said, your method works well for seeing how much each of the essences delivers on its stat budget. But it becomes off when you come to gear pieces and continue using 972 morale = 1310 crit, because that doesn't reflect how costly it is to get morale from morale essences.
    Last edited by Dragofer; Apr 29 2016 at 08:25 PM. Reason: tl;dr less waffle

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    Turbines way of giving stats to gear is very linear as far as secondary stats are concerned, but not at all when primary stats are involved. Thus I wouldn't use any primary stat in further calculations
    So, this isn't quite the case. Primary Stats are also linear, just with a different slope; 0.5 instead of 4 per level, and with a y-intercept of -10.5 instead of 0 (this is per stat slice). Morale is also linear, 3.5 per level with a -125.5 y-intercept. All of the new Essences have 1.4 slices of their main stat with 0, 0.2, or 0.4 (Purple/Teal/Gold) of some secondary stat.

    The main problem, Chris91, is that Fate is useless. Even though stat allocations are given by the above formulae, it's usually the case that Fate isn't useful because ICPR is kind of worthless.

  17. #67
    LI Passives and Faramir's at level 105

    Faramir’s at level 105

    Level 100 morale essences are very close to the level 105 ones.
    891 -> 972 morale is much closer than 1229 -> 1684 crit, even when including 42 fate.

    That means that Faramir’s make good morale swap items:

    - Faramir’s with 5x supreme morale: 4455 morale
    - Biting With 4x supreme morale: 4279 morale, 80 will, 168 fate

    With all morale essences slotted, Faramir’s are 176 more morale than Biting Wit at the cost of 80 will and 168 fate. Basically they’re virtually equally good, as long as you have 2x Biting Wit for the set bonus. People can save themselves a lot of grinding here.


    LI passives

    In U18 the passives look like this, based on the stat values from post #89, assuming you use robust will and mastery essences:

    Morale - worth 1817 mastery in all instances
    Tact mit - worth 0 mastery in physical instances, 1765 mastery in tactical instances
    Will - worth 824 mastery in physical instances, 868 mastery in tactical instances
    Crit - worth 620 mastery in physical instances, 775 mastery in tactical instances
    Vit - worth 417 mastery in all instances

    [The stats become more valuable in tactical instances: for example, the crit passive allows you to turn 2.44 mastery essences into masterful will essences which is a gain of 620 mastery, 727 resist and 364 tact mit. The tact mit is worth another 155 mastery in tactical instances.]

    Morale is clearly the best.
    Tactical mitigation has the same stat value as morale, but only in tactical instances.
    Will and Crit are quite similar, but Will has the upper hand.
    Vit is half as good as Will.
    Last edited by Dragofer; Jun 17 2016 at 12:44 PM.

  18. #68
    U18 Build-making

    As I’m interested to see the char sheet of a maxed level 105 toon but won’t be getting a maxed build like that myself anytime this term, and also because I figured it’d make sense to plan for how many of each essence will be needed, I’ve put together a tool.

    This started out as a simple essence & ratings-to-percentage calculator with specialised features like a Smouldering max hit calculator to indicate dps, but from there it was straightforward to also add functionality for gear, stat tomes, virtues, LI stats and buffs.

    Basically it creates builds from scratch. I’ve used this to predict my own various builds to within at most 100 rating or 0.1% tooltip, so it looks adequately accurate to work with.

    Google Drive – U18 Gear Planner




    Maxed level 105 builds

    Using this tool, I’ve made these maxed builds.

    All of them are with self-buffs, exactly 17.7k critical, 12.8k finesse and both mits overcapped unless glass-cannon. Virtues are Innocence, Confidence, Honour, Wisdom and the 5th is either Fidelity or Zeal depending on mits. Rune-stone passives are Morale, Tact Mit and Crit. All essences are supreme.

    All builds, including glass-cannon, have 1 level 100 morale essence because that is the best use of the slot on the level 100 cloak. It’s not possible to swap this cloak because you can only get one.




    T2c build

    Specs: 22.2k morale, 89.9k mastery, 34.7k resist, 40.0% critical defence, Smouldering Max hit of 12830. With captain 25.9k morale if there is no dread.

    Essences: 15 robust will, 14 masterful will, 2 mastery, 2 finesse, 2 phys mit, 1 crit defence, 1 lvl 100 morale
    Gear: 4x Biting Wit, DoS shoulders & head, 3x Osgiliath 280-wills, 4x Absent Friends, Hilt, Crit Epic Cloak

    Variations:
    20 robust, 9 masterful, 2 mastery: 23.7k morale, 88.0k mastery, Smouldering Max hit of 12651.
    10 robust, 19 masterful, 2 mastery: 20.7k morale, 91.8k mastery, Smouldering Max hit of 13009.
    Tactical instance (-2 phys mit, +2 masterful): +3132 mastery, +299 Smouldering max hit, new crit defence is 30.9%
    Tactical instance (-2 phys mit, +2 masterful) & (+1 crit def, -1 mastery): +1822 mastery, +174 Smouldering max hit, new crit defence is 45.5%


    For comparison: reaching the same stats with level 100 gear

    Specs: 22.2k morale, 73.6k mastery, 33.7k resist, 40.0% critical defence, Smouldering Max hit of 10918 in u18

    Essences: 30.2 supreme will, 5.6 morale, 0.7 critical, 1.5 critical defence, 2 finesse, 1 tact mit, 3 phys mit
    Gear: 4x Faramir, DoS shoulders & head, 3x Osgiliath 252-wills, 4x Crafted jewels, Phial, Crit Epic Cloak



    Max morale t2c build

    Specs: 56.1k morale, 39.0k mastery, 24.0k resist, 57.7% critical defence, Smouldering Max hit of 7970

    Essences: 35 morale, 3 critical defence, 2 finesse, 1 phys mit, 1 lvl 100 morale
    Gear: 6x Biting Wit, 7x Absent Friends, Hilt, Crit Epic Cloak



    Glass cannon build - all masterful will

    Specs: 17.8k morale, 100.0k mastery, 35.3k resist, 7.0% critical defence, Smouldering Max hit of 13790

    Essences: 31 masterful will, 3 mastery, 2 finesse, 1 lvl 100 morale
    Gear: 4x Biting Wit, DoS shoulders & head, 3x Osgiliath 280-wills, 4x Absent Friends, Hilt, Crit Epic Cloak


    Glass cannon build - 15 robust will, rest masterful will

    Specs: 22.2k morale, 94.4k mastery, 35.3k resist, 7.0% critical defence, Smouldering Max hit of 13254

    Essences: 15 robust will, 16 masterful will, 3 mastery, 2 finesse, 1 lvl 100 morale
    Gear: 4x Biting Wit, DoS shoulders & head, 3x Osgiliath 280-wills, 4x Absent Friends, Hilt, Crit Epic Cloak



    Notes - Update

    - I've changed my t2c build to have 15 robust will instead of 20 robust will, lowering morale from 23.7k to 22.2k self-buffed. This is because it's my impression the new instances aren't that dangerous for ranged dps and as canyouaddcolour pointed out some of the damage taken there is a % of morale.
    - The difference between an all-masterful will glass cannon and a 15-robust will, rest-masterful will glass cannon is 13254 -> 13790 Smouldering max hit.

    - The t2c build now uses mastery essences instead of masterful will + critical essences to hit crit cap. As discussed in the Will or Tact Mastery for essence thread, this can be considered an improvement because the new mastery essences don't reduce the number of robust will essences. Which means it's mastery vs masterful will, and that's a question of mastery or resistance - I've decided against resistance, considering the build is already well over 30k resist.

    - This is now with r16 Agility tomes. I didn't include these previously as I subconciously considered 480 crit for a full series of 16 tomes to be too meagre, especially as some have to be bought for tp's. But maxed is maxed. And besides, agility tomes have become cheap compared to the new essences.
    - Their effect is that they let you replace a mastery essence with a masterful will essence to gain 256 mastery and 149 will worth in side stats. Sometimes two mastery essences can be replaced, depending on how much crit exactly you started with.
    - As it happens, in this maxed build it allowed me to replace 2 mastery essences, so it was a gain of 512 mastery, 600 resist and 300 tact mit.

    - Mastery essences + agility tomes have together increased mastery by 1000.

    - The all-masterful will glass cannon now hits 100.0k mastery with an out of combat Smouldering max hit of 13790.

    - These stats are with max-morale scrolls as they can be bought cheaply and in bulk, and they last 1h30m even if you die, so for me they're on the same level as stat food. This is worth mentioning as I don't see many people using these scrolls.



    Notes

    - In all these builds you could push either morale or mastery higher by doing things like replacing 40 will with 40 vit crafted relics, or putting a mastery essence into the level 100 cloak instead of a morale essence. But then the total stat value of the build goes down, which means that at the same amount of morale there’s less mastery.

    - The max morale build used 7x Absent jewelry instead of 4x Absent jewelry with 3x Osgiliath 280-will because their extra mits were just what was still needed to drop 1 physical and 1 tactical mitigation essence. The result was a gain of 1.4k morale for 1.4k mastery and 3 fewer morale essences to grind.

    - The max morale build could as well have used 4x Faramir’s & 2x Biting Wit instead of 6x Biting Wit. The 4x Faramir’s version has 56.9k morale and a Smouldering max of 7725 while the all-Biting Wit version has 56.1k morale and a Smouldering max of 7970.




    Gearing setup


    The remaining step is to work out a layout of gear pieces that can swap between glass cannon / t2c physical / t2c tactical / max morale modes efficiently. Perks of this one:

    - one click for mitigations, left earring, one click for crit defence, left ring.
    - choice between two, one or no crit defence (max morale can get up to 3 crit defence).
    - uses mastery essences, which get swapped with crit defence or 4 morale so that crit never goes over or under crit cap (either would've made mastery essences lose their advantage).
    - swap items are focused on Absent jewelry so you need fewer copies of Osgiliath jewelry and Biting Wit armour.
    - efficiency, because several of the pieces are shared between builds.


    Gearing setup

    - Hilt: 2 finesse, 1 masterful will
    - Biting Wit shoes or leggings: 3 masterful will, 1 mastery

    - Physical instance: Absent, left earring: 2 phys mit
    - Tactical instance: Absent, left earring: 2 masterful will
    - Glass cannon: Absent, left earring: 2 masterful will (same piece as in tactical instance)
    - Max morale: Absent, left earring: 1 phys mit, 1 crit def

    - Absent, left ring: 2 crit def
    - Absent, left ring: 1 crit def, 1 mastery
    - Absent, left ring: 2 mastery

    - Rest: 15 robust will, 10 masterful will (t2c / glass cannon)
    - Rest: morale essences level 105 + 100 (max morale)
    - Swap between these for morale or mastery


    Gearing setup - visual



    Here's a visual which shows the pieces that need to be made.

    So for a physical instance you'd slot the earring with 2 physical mit, then combine it with a ring that has 2 crit def / 1 crit def, 1 mastery / 2 mastery depending on need.


    Everything in the middle and right columns is just morale for mastery swaps.

    If you need to swap in more morale, the most effective order is to start with pieces which have masterful will + mastery, then those which have just masterful will, and then those which have robust will.



    Notes - Gearing setup

    - If you want a masterful will based build, replace robust wills with masterful wills.
    - If you want more robust wills, start with replacing those masterful wills which are on all-masterful will pieces.

    - All builds need 2 finesse so those go into the Hilt so that it becomes permanent and you don't need to get multiple swap Hilts. The 3rd slot is used on masterful will because it's useful in all builds (doesn't hurt to have more mastery in the max morale build).

    - You can make a captain crit swap by getting another Absent ring with 2 masterful will instead of 2 mastery.
    - But tbh I don't think it's worth it: you get 512 mastery instead of 748 overcapped crit - remember the crit does have some impact on dps. This would cost 2 extra essences.
    - Therefore I've preferred to swap mastery essences with crit def essences and morale essences as that's generally more effective.

    - If you have no Agility tomes you'd need 2 extra mastery essences and 2 fewer masterful will essences.
    - These mastery essences replace masterful will essences, 1 on the Biting Wit leggings, 1 on the Absent ring.

    - If you still need more mastery essences, distribute these evenly among the pieces in the middle column. Start with the masterful will pieces first.

    - If you don't have a Hilt yet it's no problem in this setup to use a phial with 2 finesse essences or even a BB gold finesse pocket instead.
    - If you get a second Hilt you could make a 3x morale swap out of it for tank-healing or put 3x masterful will in it if you want to do turtle parses or other low-level instances.

    - Something convenient about the Osgiliath class set is that it reduces the grind by 8 essences.
    - This is also one of the advantages of using Absent jewels instead of Osgiliath jewels for the max-morale build.

    - The max morale build's default is now 4x Faramir's, 2x Biting Wit. The 2 Biting Wits are good for the set bonus, but after that they're virtually identical to Faramir's. The difference is whether you want your 56k morale build's Smouldering Wrath to hit for 7750 or 7950 (see previous post, Gearing Practicalities). There's no reason to suggest to grind 16 supreme level 105 morale essences and 4 Biting Wit pieces for this. It'd be better to get another 15 masterful will essences for a full glass cannon instead.
    - If you don't already have Faramir's, just use Biting Wits or Nadhins instead for the max morale build. No need to spend so many Morgul crests on these now.
    - The armour layout shown in the visual, that the 2 Biting Wit morale swaps are neither head nor shoulders, is so that you can have the 10% mastery set bonus and swap in +2 pulses at near-max morale.



    Shopping list

    Essences: 18 morale (lvl 105), 21 morale (lvl 100), 15 robust will, 18 masterful will, 4 mastery, 3 phys mit, 4 crit def, 2 finesse.
    Grand total: 64 essences lvl 105 and 21 morale essences lvl 100.

    Absent earrings x5, rings x5, necklace x1, bracelets x2
    Osgiliath necklace x1, bracelets x2

    Biting Wit chest, gloves, leggings, shoes (2 of these twice)
    DoS head, shoulders
    Faramir's chest, gloves, head, shoulders as morale swaps
    Last edited by Dragofer; May 18 2016 at 09:20 AM.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragofer View Post
    U18 Build-making
    Glass cannon build

    Specs: 17.8k morale, 99.7k mastery, 35.0k resist, 7.0% critical defence, Smouldering Max hit of 13766

    Essences: 30 masterful will, 4 mastery, 2 finesse, 1 lvl 100 morale
    Gear: 4x Biting Wit, DoS shoulders & head, 3x Osgiliath 280-wills, 4x Absent Friends, Hilt, Crit Epic Cloak
    interesting build for t2c content -which is silent street atm i guess- id consider to get a armor piece to replace the mastery essences with masterful will ones just in case theres a cap in your group. i d also like to add 2x crit def essences because i feel like they save me from a onehit most of the time.

  20. #70
    Join Date
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    The community needs more threads like these. Well researched, well organized. A place to go to for people wishing to learn more about their class. Thanks for going to the effort Dragofer.

    I differ on the philosophy of gearing (I.E. I build for max DPS, no matter what, and then adjust depending on the situation, since that's a good part of where I get my fun out of this game), however I completely respect the way you go about things and you can clearly see the high level of logic and thought in your build advice.
    Last edited by canyouaddcolour; May 10 2016 at 07:00 AM.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by canyouaddcolour View Post
    The community needs more threads like these. Well researched, well organized. A place to go to for people wishing to learn more about their class. Thanks for going to the effort Dragofer.

    I differ on the philosophy of gearing (I.E. I build for max DPS, no matter what, and then adjust depending on the situation, since that's a good part of where I get my fun out of this game), however I completely respect the way you go about things and you can clearly see the high level of logic and thought in your build advice.
    I thank you. It's always good to see comments and input like yours. About gearing philosophy, I've posted more discussion in the Will or Tact Mastery thread.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mormur View Post
    interesting build for t2c content -which is silent street atm i guess- id consider to get a armor piece to replace the mastery essences with masterful will ones just in case theres a cap in your group. i d also like to add 2x crit def essences because i feel like they save me from a onehit most of the time.
    (I'm guessing you meant to quote the t2c build)

    I appreciate that you brought up the idea of crit-swaps for grouping with captains. At the moment I'm using different approaches:
    - one is to swap 1 mastery for 1 crit defence. In other words, I'd have a ring with 2 crit defence, a swap ring with 1 crit defence and 1 mastery, and another swap ring with 2 mastery.
    - the other is to swap 1 mastery and 2-3 will essences for 3-4 morale essences.
    Both are to keep crit constant at 17.7k

    Tbh I don't really think cappy crit swaps are worth it because you get 1000 mastery instead of 1496 overcapped crit and need 4 extra essences to do this - and besides, this is incompatible with both of the 2 approaches above.


    -------------------------------

    Moving on to crit defence, I've only used 1 crit defence essence in the 23k morale build because of how much you're already getting from mitigation essences and the 7% crit defence trait - that trait became more important in the new crit-happy instances.

    This results in 43.8% crit defence, which should be enough if 23k morale is enough.


    A 2nd crit defence is an option if you prefer. But a while back (post #42) I made calculations with the result that for an 18k crit with 200% multiplier, the 1st crit def essence is as effective as 2 morale essences, while the 2nd crit def essence is as effective as 1.25 morale essences.

    In other words, the 2nd crit def essence is slightly better than a morale essence at absorbing 18k hits, but useless at any other sources of damage.

    At level 105, extra diminishing returns due to crit def from mitigation essences etc. means the 2nd essence becomes even weaker. But if we are talking about way bigger hits than just 18k, like Harlond trolls, then it makes good sense to use multiple critical defence essences.
    Last edited by Dragofer; May 18 2016 at 10:09 AM.

  22. #72
    I undestand your foccus is t2c, but for someone that is just going to do t1, are there to much big diferences?

    On my RK, I have, unbufed:

    16k morale;
    14,5k crit;
    7k finess;
    74,7k mast;
    16,7k resist;

    mits go from 13k to 15k (both) depending from the armor pieces I have slotes (graven word).

    I use masterfull wills on lvl 105 pieces and greater mast on lvl 100 ones.

    I also have a build wit 27k morale, mostly obtained with 4 nadinh pieces with greater morales, and my mast drops to 56,5k.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Daglad View Post
    I undestand your foccus is t2c, but for someone that is just going to do t1, are there to much big diferences?

    T2c and T1 are similar in a lot of ways, just that you can take less defensive builds with lower morale to T1. If there's some risk of death in the T1 I'd suggest starting with a single crit def essence and capping whichever mit is needed at the normal 13k cap as those give the biggest per-essence improvements in survivability, then add morale from there.


    About your build, crit should be capped at 17.6k as it's the most effective way of increasing dps, well ahead of mastery. I'd also suggest another finesse essence - I used to go for 7k at level 100 based on the fact that this didn't lead to any resists in Osgiliath instances. Except mit debuffs, which don't seem to be affected by finesse and even get resisted by level 50 mobs. Later it turned out some older instances do need more finesse, so it'd be best to be somewhere above 10k to be on the safe side.

  24. #74
    Thanks for your annalisys... I will try to make some tweaks, to see where I can get, mostly on crit and finesse...

  25. #75
    I really don't know what's going on, but using 3 rks is being worse than using 2 with some other class, in SS t2c.

    The parses are low overall, mine is higher and still not as high as some videos I see(1k difference). I have 80k mastery and capped crit, I do the conventional rotation for single target posted here, end up tanking one of the adds, but the tanking takes too long.

    The I saw a video with 4manning SS t2c and wanted to jump from a bridge.

    I really don't know what the hell is going on.

 

 
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