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  1. #51
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    t2 mitigation reduction

    Dear all,

    I haven't had the time to reproduce the exact numbers of the (how would you ideally call it - it's not finessse - maybe 'mitigation reduction'?) of the prevoius posts, but since my guardian has reached the orc damage mitigation cap, he gets noticeably less damage in the Osgiliath t2 instances. A very valuable piece of information in this thread. And maybe that's exactly what the developerss wanted the players to find out by themselves, even if it's a little tricky.

    The above findings lead to a further question: Is there also a hidden tactical mitigation cap, are the mathematics / numbers the same and does the 'tactical mitigation reduction' also apply to e.g. the wound from Jukotor and similar DOTs ? I haven't studied every last sentence in this thread, so please excuse if I have just missed this information.

    Kind regards

    Rhunar

  2. #52
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    CaerArianrhod is offline Rohirrim Scout
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhunar View Post
    The above findings lead to a further question: Is there also a hidden tactical mitigation cap, are the mathematics / numbers the same and does the 'tactical mitigation reduction' also apply to e.g. the wound from Jukotor and similar DOTs ?.
    Yes, the 6750 value apply to both tacical & physical mitigation. See this posting and the following one for the some tests/maths: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...23#post7399723

    About Jukotor's DoT: tact. mit. may help to lower the DoT's damage itself but the best way to avoid the DoT is, if you have a high resistance. If you resits a DoT the wound is gone, but tactical mitigation do not help to avoid to get that wound.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhunar View Post
    The above findings lead to a further question: Is there also a hidden tactical mitigation cap, are the mathematics / numbers the same and does the 'tactical mitigation reduction' also apply to e.g. the wound from Jukotor and similar DOTs ? I haven't studied every last sentence in this thread, so please excuse if I have just missed this information.
    Jukotor's wound does Common Damage actually But no idea whether the penetration applies for such dot effects or not.
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  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Rhunar View Post
    Dear all,

    I haven't had the time to reproduce the exact numbers of the (how would you ideally call it - it's not finessse - maybe 'mitigation reduction'?) of the prevoius posts, but since my guardian has reached the orc damage mitigation cap, he gets noticeably less damage in the Osgiliath t2 instances. A very valuable piece of information in this thread. And maybe that's exactly what the developerss wanted the players to find out by themselves, even if it's a little tricky.

    The above findings lead to a further question: Is there also a hidden tactical mitigation cap, are the mathematics / numbers the same and does the 'tactical mitigation reduction' also apply to e.g. the wound from Jukotor and similar DOTs ? I haven't studied every last sentence in this thread, so please excuse if I have just missed this information.

    Kind regards

    Rhunar
    You don't need tactical mitigations in RC t2c. Not sure about the other 2 instances.
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  5. #55
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    Thanks all for the replies. Indeed, an important finding and valuable information (confirmed by my own tanking experiences in RC & SL t2). Thanks everyone for sharing.

    Rhunar

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabli View Post
    I can confirm that Physical Mitigation works as intended.




    I did some tests (solo) in Battle For Erebor lvl 100, T1 and T2. I tracked "Melee High" damage for normal and critical hits (has no range, same damage for both trolls and I always made sure I had >50% critical defence) with different gear to alter my physical mitigation.

    Here's what I got :

    Tables are :

    I bolded "regions" were physical mitigation has no influence on damage.

    It can be noted that if you use the formula
    Code:
    dmg = base_dmg*(1-phys_mit/100)
    were the phys_mit is in percentage and calculated thanks to this page to estimate the attack base damage in T1, all "points" give a consistant base damage value bewteen 37025.6 and 37027.5.
    One can also see that the cap is reached for physical mitigation rating between 16543 and 16671, in accordance with expected value of 16658

    For T2, the graph makes you think that the trolls actually have armour (or physical) penetration, not as a percentage but a flat value, which here would be approximately 6750. This is because the incoming damage is fixed for all physical mitigation below 6699, and it only changes for the 6770 point so the "turning point" must be between those two.
    Using this vale to calculate the effective mitigation (that simply means substrating 6750 to your rating before using the formula in the previous link), calculated attack base damage is between 92234.5 and 92619.6 while the exact value should be 92568. We'll assume the range is due to rounding errors.
    With this armour reduction, you should reach mitigation cap at approximately 23408 physical mitigation. The table show it happens between 24904 and 23021, which is consistent.


    Now, it is yet to be determined whether the trolls armour penetration is specific to this attack or not and whether all T2 mobs have armour penetration or not. Trying this on Ruined City's first pack of mobs would be nice : different mobs and different cluster would be interesting.


    indeed 6750 gives the nearest calculation and not 6751 or 6749.

  7. #57
    Thanks for taking the time to both check my educated guess, and spotting were my fingers failed me when typing numbers in that table
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  8. #58
    Sorry if this is a stupid question. But do you guys know what level of enemies you are testing on? I mean the tooltip reflects the cap versus lvl100 enemies. In order to cap your mitigations versus, say, a lvl 105 enemy you need a higher rating to reach the cap.
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  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by -Aelg- View Post
    Sorry if this is a stupid question. But do you guys know what level of enemies you are testing on? I mean the tooltip reflects the cap versus lvl100 enemies. In order to cap your mitigations versus, say, a lvl 105 enemy you need a higher rating to reach the cap.
    My tests were all done on level 100 mobs. The test in BFE is against lvl 101 I believe.
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  10. #60
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    New Caps

    Hi,

    I just did some short tests on Bullroarer (where U 18 Build 1 has just been released for open Beta) in BfE T2 at Level 105.
    And it seems that the Hidden Mitigation cap lays now between 7076 and 7165.


    Greets

    Thrif

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrifkori View Post
    Hi,

    I just did some short tests on Bullroarer (where U 18 Build 1 has just been released for open Beta) in BfE T2 at Level 105.
    And it seems that the Hidden Mitigation cap lays now between 7076 and 7165.


    Greets

    Thrif
    I did the same today, got a more narrow guess: between 7092 and 7154. Heavy armour t2 cap being somewhere between 24574 and 24594, and t1 cap between 17440 and 17482.

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathili View Post
    I did the same today, got a more narrow guess: between 7092 and 7154. Heavy armour t2 cap being somewhere between 24574 and 24594, and t1 cap between 17440 and 17482.
    Hm, as all mobs values scale linearly (damage, ...) i guess the new value is 7087.5 which seems to fit with your observations.

  13. #63
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    Looks like my assumption was correct Thanks a lot for the information.

    (https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Rat...s_Graph_Data): negative dRL of 67.5: 67.5 * level.

    Required Heavy armour mitigation rating calculation: (633/38 + 5697/38 + 67.5) * 105 ~= 24578
    Likewise you can find the numbers in wiki for the other armour types.

    I think that I'll integrate this more permanent in my spreadsheet with a new area selection: PvE T2

    Edit: new U18 medium armour numbers here: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...87#post7557087
    Last edited by Giseldah; Mar 22 2016 at 02:00 PM.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tybur View Post
    The three balance effects that increase the power of all Tier 2 instance mobs are now visible. These effects have always existed, but they have been invisible until now.
    Looks like the formula/amount is slightly different: 7085 compared to 7087.5. I shall look at these amounts more closely.



    Edit:
    BPE Ratings = level * 25
    Resist Ratings = level * 50
    BPE Penetration = level * -40
    Critical Defence Ratings = level * 50
    Critical Ratings = level * 150
    Penetrate Target Resistance = level * -90
    Armour Value = Floor(Minimum(level,80) * 13.5) * 2
    Mitigation Penetration = Floor(level * 13.5) * -5

    Note: so Armour Value doesn't increase after level 80, but stays 2160.
    Last edited by Giseldah; Jun 15 2016 at 09:46 PM.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Giseldah View Post
    Looks like the formula/amount is slightly different: 7085 compared to 7087.5. I shall look at these amounts more closely.

    if mobs actually have a buff for +150% damage instead of higher basedamage... does this make loremasters/burglars debuffs useless as most things stack additive in lotro?
    or are those no real buffs and loremasters/burglars debuffs really reduce the damage by the mentioned amount? did not test damage debuffs for a while...
    but if -35% melee damage would just reduce +150 to +115%, it would only be a reduction of 14%. not really cool anymore...

    and its quite weird... the last time i checked (which is less than a month ago), t2 mobs had exactly 2.5x morale compared to t1. the buff says 3x. now is the buff wrong or did they infact really change something?


    btw: cool to see, that mobs actually have critical defense. i always thought they dont as i never saw any difference with or without critdef reducing debuffs with burglars or hunters.

    and i always thought, there would be a bigger difference in mobs mitigations than just +2k armour. is the armour-mitigation formula for npcs different? or is there really no big difference in mitigations in t2/t1?
    Last edited by Oelle; Jun 15 2016 at 08:24 PM.
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  16. #66
    Looks like the formula/amount is slightly different: 7085 compared to 7087.5. I shall look at these amounts more closely.
    It actually is 67.5x Level as indicated, but I think it rounds to a near 5, because if you fight a Level 108 mob, it has -7290 Mitigation.

    if mobs actually have a buff for +150% damage instead of higher basedamage... does this make loremasters/burglars debuffs useless as most things stack additive in lotro?
    or are those no real buffs and loremasters/burglars debuffs really reduce the damage by the mentioned amount? did not test damage debuffs for a while...
    but if -35% melee damage would just reduce +150 to +115%, it would only be a reduction of 14%. not really cool anymore...
    Lore-master works multiplicatively with this; I checked. Mobs deal 65% * 250% = 162.5% with Fire-lore.

    and i always thought, there would be a bigger difference in mobs mitigations than just +2k armour. is the armour-mitigation formula for npcs different? or is there really no big difference in mitigations in t2/t1?
    Monster Armour/Mitigation relation is different from player character Armour/Mitigation relation (I have some data points). Monsters have base Mitigations that are separate from their Armour Values.

    Monster Critical Defence is of the old variety; it reduces incoming Crit Chance, not damage.

    The Multiplies Maximum Morale by 3 might just be a rounding error; it really is just a 2.5x multiplication.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Giseldah View Post
    Looks like the formula/amount is slightly different: 7085 compared to 7087.5. I shall look at these amounts more closely.
    It depends on instances and the size of instances.
    I checked a few, 7085 was for some T2 3-mans, Fornost Earth T2 had 7220, SS T2 7155, etc... (and maybe mobs vs bosses, not sure)

  18. #68
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    I've already added all the formula's to my post some time ago. No need to speculate what they are:

    Quote Originally Posted by Giseldah View Post
    BPE Ratings = level * 25
    Resist Ratings = level * 50
    BPE Penetration = level * -40
    Critical Defence Ratings = level * 50
    Critical Ratings = level * 150
    Penetrate Target Resistance = level * -90
    Armour Value = Floor(Minimum(level,80) * 13.5) * 2
    Mitigation Penetration = Floor(level * 13.5) * -5

    Note: so Armour Value doesn't increase after level 80, but stays 2160.

    Indeed, the higher values are for levels 106, 107 and 108.

    Edit: I've updated T2 ratings in Lotro-Wiki.
    Last edited by Giseldah; Jun 16 2016 at 06:51 AM.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Orodalf View Post
    It actually is 67.5x Level as indicated, but I think it rounds to a near 5, because if you fight a Level 108 mob, it has -7290 Mitigation.



    Lore-master works multiplicatively with this; I checked. Mobs deal 65% * 250% = 162.5% with Fire-lore.



    Monster Armour/Mitigation relation is different from player character Armour/Mitigation relation (I have some data points). Monsters have base Mitigations that are separate from their Armour Values.

    Monster Critical Defence is of the old variety; it reduces incoming Crit Chance, not damage.

    The Multiplies Maximum Morale by 3 might just be a rounding error; it really is just a 2.5x multiplication.
    If Monsters Crit Defense is the old variety, does that mean we should be overcapping crit for T2?
    [

  20. #70
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    Regarding mitigations, to be complete, this is the required rating table for T2 instances at level 105.
    Mitigation percentage is calculated on basis of the opponents level. On basis of level difference, the player is getting a percentage penalty (so heavy will have 58% mitigation maximum against a lvl108 boss).

    Mob Level Light Medium Heavy % penalty
    108 20790 23049 25281 -2%
    107 20595 22833 25044 -1%
    106 20405 22622 24813 0%
    105 20210 22406 24576 0%

  21. #71
    @Giseldhah: As I said, the formula is 67.5x the Monster Level. However, this is rounded to a near 5, hence the display as 7085.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeA View Post
    If Monsters Crit Defense is the old variety, does that mean we should be overcapping crit for T2?
    No. Increasing your Critical Rating will not further increase your Critical Hit Chance.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Orodalf View Post
    @Giseldhah: As I said, the formula is 67.5x the Monster Level. However, this is rounded to a near 5, hence the display as 7085.



    No. Increasing your Critical Rating will not further increase your Critical Hit Chance.
    But that doesn't agree with your statement that it is using old style Crit Defense, where the Crit Defense Rating was subtracted from your Crit Rating. Overcapping Crit Rating by 5250 should bring you back to the crit cap.
    [

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeA View Post
    But that doesn't agree with your statement that it is using old style Crit Defense, where the Crit Defense Rating was subtracted from your Crit Rating. Overcapping Crit Rating by 5250 should bring you back to the crit cap.
    I believe it merely reduces your Critical Hit Chance; it definitely does not touch your Magnitude, which I verified by checking my Magnitude in T1/T2 Ruined City. Therefore, it takes your Critical Hit Chance and reduces it by some percentage given by the monster's Critical Defence, but your effective Critical Rating is not reduced directly by the monster's Critical Defence Rating.

    This is, of course, guesswork based on the fact that I don't have decreased Magnitude in t2.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Orodalf View Post
    I believe it merely reduces your Critical Hit Chance; it definitely does not touch your Magnitude, which I verified by checking my Magnitude in T1/T2 Ruined City. Therefore, it takes your Critical Hit Chance and reduces it by some percentage given by the monster's Critical Defence, but your effective Critical Rating is not reduced directly by the monster's Critical Defence Rating.

    This is, of course, guesswork based on the fact that I don't have decreased Magnitude in t2.
    That means its not really the old Crit Defense which directly subtracted the rating, of course the old crit rating didn't increase crit magnitude.
    [

  25. #75
    CaerArianrhod's Avatar
    CaerArianrhod is offline Rohirrim Scout
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giseldah View Post
    Regarding mitigations, to be complete, this is the required rating table for T2 instances at level 105.
    Mitigation percentage is calculated on basis of the opponents level. On basis of level difference, the player is getting a percentage penalty (so heavy will have 58% mitigation maximum against a lvl108 boss).

    Mob Level Light Medium Heavy % penalty
    108 20790 23049 25281 -2%
    107 20595 22833 25044 -1%
    106 20405 22622 24813 0%
    105 20210 22406 24576 0%
    I made some tests in different Instances:
    Fornost, SG, Thal, Serpent, the new Raid

    All T2 level105 mobs have the same "stats", regadless if they are normal, signature or elite:


    The 20210 value is clear (light for example): 13125 + 7085 = 20210

    The level 108 mobs has also the sam stats regardless what they are:


    Maybe it is just (to) late now, but i don't get the 20790 for the light classes.
    13125+7290 = 20415, where is the remaining 375 comes from? (it is not the 1% or 2% or 3%)

    Regards
    CA

 

 
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