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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Garatha View Post
    Ride a clydesdale, belgian or another one of the draught horse breeds for a feel of how well heavy war steeds should turn (and remember it and you would be in very heavy armor). Medium cavalry would be more like the lippizans mentioned. Light horses (like todays Arabians or barbs) can indeed turn on a dime and give you 9 cents change. And this is true also of the war steeds in the game. I do not find that my characters riding light mounts with a lot of points in agility and such, ride like boats at all - they remind me more of my own riding experiences. We did have a morgan that was a bit closer to the medium mounts in the game. While I've shoed a Clydesdale, I've never ridden one, but it is on line with the types of horses ridden by the knights of the middle ages (also the Cataphracti of the ancient world's armies). Most armies had a mix of cavalry units, heavy, medium or light, depending on their traditional armies' foes.

    I've had a horse make one of those instant right hand turns, as did a commenter above, however it was a light horse (quarterhorse, in my case) or at best a medium horse, not a heavier mount. Unlike the earlier poster, I did not keep my seat in that instance, but did learn to watch my horses ears (when he was planning something diabolical he would lay them back flat against his head). That was at a canter, though, not a full out gallop. If you are barrel racing, you'll need to know how to prepare your horse for a tight turn (flying change of lead), depending on his current lead. And you won't do it on a draught horse.

    I personally think Turbine did a really good job in simulating mounted combat of the three types (light, medium, heavy). On my hunter on a light steed I can indeed either circle and fire, or ride up, shoot, then ride off, sending my Parthian shot back at them (which I believe is the source of the phrase more commonly given as parting shot - we seem short of Parthian cavalry these days). My guardian is limited more to either making jousting like passes at the enemy, or riding up to him and just standing toe to toe and duking it out. I'm fairly happy with all my other classes in mounted combat, even the burglar which I often hear folks saying isn't good in mounted combat. Heavy horses I think should do more damage regardless of the class riding them, as they were designed to be pretty unstoppable in a charge.

    Now I would be impressed if when riding down infantry on my war steed they suddenly formed a block and dropped sarissas and dismounted me as I hit their lines. But on the whole, I think Turbine has done the best job I've seen at simulating mounted combat of an ancient/medieval world (and I think Tolkien was kind of torn as to which of those would be the closest approximation of Middle Earth's time).

    Just my opinion, of course, and assuming you've fully traited your war steed for the type of combat you plan and is appropriate for your mount (more agility on light, more armor on heavy).
    Interesting. You inspire me to try again. I believe I have the light trait tree available, though I'd have to go in game to be certain, and I do have some light bridles I can lvl up and add agility on. I will give it a shot. The heaviest I've ridden in rl is a Friesian, and that only once. My mount of choice is the Saddlebred, though being on a Paso Fino is kind of like floating on a cloud... Maybe some of my trouble is because of my familiarity with the lighter breeds, I really expect more nimble responses.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaxie View Post
    And again, I must disagree. A sacrament is a ceremonial thing, used in religious ceremonies. It is not a survival ration, used on the trail. My interpretation of Lembas would be more akin to a special energy bar, infused with antibiotics and highly nutritional ingredients.
    No, mere survival rations would be stuff like the cram that Gimli initially mistook lembas for. There was a ceremonial aspect to lembas - it represented the Lady's blessing on someone when they went on a long journey into the wilds or were otherwise in great need, and everything about its making and keeping was ritualized. As can be seen in LOTR, it nourished the spirit as well as the body. Tolkien wrote a note about it, 'Of Lembas' (see volume 12 of HoME). And do try to have a little imagination - this is fantasy, after all, and Elvish stuff often has a quality of 'magical' otherworldliness - particularly in this case, since the special corn the Elves grew to make the flour for lembas had originally come from Valinor and had been given to them as a gift by the Valar. As a lore point, the recipe was said to be a closely-guarded secret known only to the Lady of each Elvish land and the 'maidens of Yavanna' who assisted her, so even most Elves didn't know how it was made.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    No, mere survival rations would be stuff like the cram that Gimli initially mistook lembas for. There was a ceremonial aspect to lembas - it represented the Lady's blessing on someone when they went on a long journey into the wilds or were otherwise in great need, and everything about its making and keeping was ritualized. As can be seen in LOTR, it nourished the spirit as well as the body. Tolkien wrote a note about it, 'Of Lembas' (see volume 12 of HoME). And do try to have a little imagination - this is fantasy, after all, and Elvish stuff often has a quality of 'magical' otherworldliness - particularly in this case, since the special corn the Elves grew to make the flour for lembas had originally come from Valinor and had been given to them as a gift by the Valar. As a lore point, the recipe was said to be a closely-guarded secret known only to the Lady of each Elvish land and the 'maidens of Yavanna' who assisted her, so even most Elves didn't know how it was made.
    I did not say it was not magical, I said it was not a "sacrament".- and I stand by that. The mere fact of being magic does not make it religiously significant to the point of becoming a sacrament. If anything, the fact that magic had much more prevalence in Elvish daily life reduces the tendency to make it religiously significant. Even if every step in the process of producing it was ritualized and "prayed over", the actual use of the end product, no matter how magical it's effect, makes it not a "sacrament". That would be like saying the Pope packed up communion wafers and sent them with soldiers on the crusades to be used as breakfast, lunch and dinner.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaxie View Post
    I did not say it was not magical, I said it was not a "sacrament".- and I stand by that. The mere fact of being magic does not make it religiously significant to the point of becoming a sacrament. If anything, the fact that magic had much more prevalence in Elvish daily life reduces the tendency to make it religiously significant. Even if every step in the process of producing it was ritualized and "prayed over", the actual use of the end product, no matter how magical it's effect, makes it not a "sacrament". That would be like saying the Pope packed up communion wafers and sent them with soldiers on the crusades to be used as breakfast, lunch and dinner.
    Rather missing the point that despite Elvish 'magic' generally being nothing special to Elves, they treated lembas like it was really, really special; even Elves weren't given it lightly but only when they had great need of it (so no, not for 'breakfast, lunch and dinner' like it was at all an everyday thing). And of course it had religious significance to them - nobody was allowed to touch the corn while it was growing except for the Lady and her helpers, and they picked each stalk by hand rather than take a blade to it: and again, only they made the cakes, and only the Lady could hand them out (that's actually why she was called the Lady in the first place: in Elvish the word was besain, bread-giver). And it was only after they'd been given that anyone else was allowed to so much as touch them. So please, have a little imagination - it's not as if Galadriel was handing out Kendal Mint Cake

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post
    I've never tried /follow before on MC - never occurred to me. Thanks for the tip!
    It's about the only way to do warbands successfully on a burg

    Don't try it on hunter though - it doesn't work well with a bow
    Apes are superior to man in this . . . . When a monkey looks in a mirror, he sees a monkey

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    It's about the only way to do warbands successfully on a burg

    Don't try it on hunter though - it doesn't work well with a bow
    /follow is also very useful if you're a healing class,
    don't like war-steeds, and have a fellow to /follow.
    I can /follow whh on whatever he's doing and spam
    heals.
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  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    /follow is also very useful if you're a healing class,
    don't like war-steeds, and have a fellow to /follow.
    I can /follow whh on whatever he's doing and spam
    heals.
    O.o When did you start to group? Hope you enjoyed it
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  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Rather missing the point that despite Elvish 'magic' generally being nothing special to Elves, they treated lembas like it was really, really special; even Elves weren't given it lightly but only when they had great need of it (so no, not for 'breakfast, lunch and dinner' like it was at all an everyday thing). And of course it had religious significance to them - nobody was allowed to touch the corn while it was growing except for the Lady and her helpers, and they picked each stalk by hand rather than take a blade to it: and again, only they made the cakes, and only the Lady could hand them out (that's actually why she was called the Lady in the first place: in Elvish the word was besain, bread-giver). And it was only after they'd been given that anyone else was allowed to so much as touch them. So please, have a little imagination - it's not as if Galadriel was handing out Kendal Mint Cake
    No... more like she was handing out magic penicillin. Of course it wouldn't be given out lightly, the supply had to be quite limited, given the restrictions used in the making of it. As for those restrictions: Only one kind of magically enhanced grain existed from which it could be made (makes sense), only the few in-the-know people could work with it (of course, it's not like any Tom, Dick, or Harry can walk into Lilly Pharmaceutical and whip up a batch of penicillin), the grain had to be hand picked, not cut (again of course, as magic and iron don't mix well), and only the Lady could hand them out (she must have been the only licensed Pharmacist in Middle Earth).

    As you can see, it could be rare, and precious, and magical, all without being a religious "sacrament".

    I'm afraid we'll just have to amicably agree to disagree on this one, as I will never accept the term "sacrament" being applied in this case... it just doesn't fit.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaxie View Post
    No... more like she was handing out magic penicillin. Of course it wouldn't be given out lightly, the supply had to be quite limited, given the restrictions used in the making of it. As for those restrictions: Only one kind of magically enhanced grain existed from which it could be made (makes sense), only the few in-the-know people could work with it (of course, it's not like any Tom, Dick, or Harry can walk into Lilly Pharmaceutical and whip up a batch of penicillin), the grain had to be hand picked, not cut (again of course, as magic and iron don't mix well), and only the Lady could hand them out (she must have been the only licensed Pharmacist in Middle Earth).
    And there's the problem... a lack of imagination on your part even though we're discussing fantasy; you make it sound so leadenly mechanistic. Grain from Valinor wouldn't be 'magically enhanced' (you make it sound like breakfast cereal), it'd be blessed. Filled with the 'strong life' that living things which had come from Valinor possessed: something that can be seen in the High Elves, the hound Huan (in the Sil), the mearas like Shadowfax (whose ancestors were said to have come from there), and the Kine of Araw (ditto). Something of the same sort of blessing had been given to the Dunedain, once upon a time, hence their difference as well. The Elves only allowed a few people to handle the corn and picked it by hand as a way of showing respect for it: we know for a fact that they had a religion which Tolkien imagined as being somewhat 'pagan' in character, with a great deal of reverence for the Valar. It's no good just ignoring the religious angle when the Elves had been given such a gift directly by the very beings they revered. Anthropologically speaking, if there were a real bunch of people who had a ceremony involving the same sort of ritualized, reverential handling of grain that had supposedly been given to them by their gods, and its baking into cakes by a single powerful female figure and her maiden assistants, then there wouldn't be any argument about it being religious in character. It'd come across as a fertility ritual, Tolkien's Yavanna having been consciously styled after a pagan fertility goddess. Hence my use of the word 'sacrament' - it was a sort of material blessing given to those who were going into peril in the wilds, or who'd been gravely hurt. That the gift in question had substantial food value rather than being purely symbolic doesn't change the underlying character of that gift, of what it represented. Tolkien might have chosen not to make a big deal out of it in LOTR, but you shouldn't take that as meaning the stuff was simply a superfood.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    It's about the only way to do warbands successfully on a burg

    Don't try it on hunter though - it doesn't work well with a bow
    Nah, it actually works well with a hunter too, as hunter's dual wield with -attack duration relics on briddle does hack and slack on par with bow attack, not mention that at close range will allow you use additional melee skill. In addition, hunter /follow a mob makes it has lesser chance to score a big-hit attack, allowing hunter to survive even longer. Of course, it really depends on which kind of mob you /follow
    [I]"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of judgment. For even the wise cannot see all ends"[/I] - [B]Gandalf[/B]

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    And there's the problem... a lack of imagination on your part even though we're discussing fantasy; you make it sound so leadenly mechanistic. Grain from Valinor wouldn't be 'magically enhanced' (you make it sound like breakfast cereal), it'd be blessed. Filled with the 'strong life' that living things which had come from Valinor possessed: something that can be seen in the High Elves, the hound Huan (in the Sil), the mearas like Shadowfax (whose ancestors were said to have come from there), and the Kine of Araw (ditto). Something of the same sort of blessing had been given to the Dunedain, once upon a time, hence their difference as well. The Elves only allowed a few people to handle the corn and picked it by hand as a way of showing respect for it: we know for a fact that they had a religion which Tolkien imagined as being somewhat 'pagan' in character, with a great deal of reverence for the Valar. It's no good just ignoring the religious angle when the Elves had been given such a gift directly by the very beings they revered. Anthropologically speaking, if there were a real bunch of people who had a ceremony involving the same sort of ritualized, reverential handling of grain that had supposedly been given to them by their gods, and its baking into cakes by a single powerful female figure and her maiden assistants, then there wouldn't be any argument about it being religious in character. It'd come across as a fertility ritual, Tolkien's Yavanna having been consciously styled after a pagan fertility goddess. Hence my use of the word 'sacrament' - it was a sort of material blessing given to those who were going into peril in the wilds, or who'd been gravely hurt. That the gift in question had substantial food value rather than being purely symbolic doesn't change the underlying character of that gift, of what it represented. Tolkien might have chosen not to make a big deal out of it in LOTR, but you shouldn't take that as meaning the stuff was simply a superfood.
    For it to qualify as a "sacrament", they would have had to perform a religious ceremony every time it was used, and the people using it would have had to be members of that specific religion. If it was misused, by not including the ceremony, or by being tainted by the use of someone not of that religion, it's "religiously magical" effect would have been nullified. As that is not the case, it was not a "sacrament".

    btw: I have employed considerable imagination in coming up with alternate possibilities with which to refute your arguments in support of your continued misuse of the term "sacrament". I have done so without deliberately insulting you. I have done so despite your persistence in throwing that insult at me in nearly every post of this discussion.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaxie View Post
    For it to qualify as a "sacrament", they would have had to perform a religious ceremony every time it was used, and the people using it would have had to be members of that specific religion. If it was misused, by not including the ceremony, or by being tainted by the use of someone not of that religion, it's "religiously magical" effect would have been nullified. As that is not the case, it was not a "sacrament".
    'Religiously magical'? That's not how it goes, strictly speaking things of that sort are believed to be miraculous, not magical per se. Plus Gollum couldn't eat it - evidently it 'objected' to being eaten by someone evil, and it apparently tasted like 'dust and ashes' to him. And the thing is, the lembas had been given to the Fellowship by the Lady, so what you might call the proper rite had been observed.

    btw: I have employed considerable imagination in coming up with alternate possibilities with which to refute your arguments in support of your continued misuse of the term "sacrament". I have done so without deliberately insulting you. I have done so despite your persistence in throwing that insult at me in nearly every post of this discussion.
    If anything you've gone too far the other way by trying to make it sound like nothing more than the Elvish answer to pemmican. Given that it's apparently a teensie bit of a blessing in every mouthful and appears to nourish the spirit as well as the body, I don't think 'sacrament' is too strong a word. Inevitably, we don't have an exact real-world equivalent for something like that.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    As a lore point, the recipe was said to be a closely-guarded secret known only to the Lady of each Elvish land and the 'maidens of Yavanna' who assisted her, so even most Elves didn't know how it was made.

    Oh man, you reminded me of the Calgon's laundery soap 1970's commercial which had the line "Ancient Chinese Secret Huh?".

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  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    'Religiously magical'? That's not how it goes, strictly speaking things of that sort are believed to be miraculous, not magical per se. Plus Gollum couldn't eat it - evidently it 'objected' to being eaten by someone evil, and it apparently tasted like 'dust and ashes' to him. And the thing is, the lembas had been given to the Fellowship by the Lady, so what you might call the proper rite had been observed.


    If anything you've gone too far the other way by trying to make it sound like nothing more than the Elvish answer to pemmican. Given that it's apparently a teensie bit of a blessing in every mouthful and appears to nourish the spirit as well as the body, I don't think 'sacrament' is too strong a word. Inevitably, we don't have an exact real-world equivalent for something like that.
    grumble
    grouch, mumble, GRUMBLE!!

    Fine, let it not be said I am like my father... I am willing to admit when I am wrong.

    I looked it up in a dictionary, all ready to come at you again, even though I had told myself I wouldn't.

    According to the dictionary definition of the word sacrament, it could apply.




    was kind of a fun debate though...

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaxie View Post

    According to the dictionary definition of the word sacrament, it could apply.
    I wouldn't have you give up so easily! I've been rather enjoying reading your's and Radhruin's arguments, because both bring up valid points. I'd like to respond to the quote though:

    I too searched up the definition of the word sacrament, and it is almost exclusively used to refer to religious ceremonies by the Christian Church, or actions/objects in the Christian faith. Now, in the setting of Middle Earth, I do not believe Christianity exists, at least most certainly not among the elves, who revere the Valar. That being said, it would be erroneous to say lembas, or the making of it, was a sacrament. Maybe it could be the equivalent of a sacrament, but even that maybe be argued, as follows.

    After long searching, the only other definition of sacrament I was able to find was, "a thing of mysterious and sacred significance" (And even then indirectly linked to Christianity). That is a very general definition, and if we were to take it as such, it could be used to describe everything from the Three Elven Rings to Galadriel's hair. However, I'd like to focus on the "mysterious" part, as well as the supposed rarity of lembas. After doing extensive research, indeed everything Radhruin said was true, the Vala Yavanna made the first lembas, and this recipe passed from her to Melian of Doriath, and then later to Lady Galadriel of Lorien; the corn was picked by hand, and only Galadriel and her maidens knew the secret; and Galadriel alone was responsible for distributing the lembas. However, out of all of this, the only mysterious part was the recipe itself, which could be likened to a very old, very respected family secret, with a family matron responsible for handing it out. Furthermore, the sacredness of Galadriel's gifts of lembas seemed to be exaggerated. Let me quote a piece from "Leaving Lorien," the chapter where the Fellowship is about to depart from the Elves, where Gimli first takes a bite of lembas:

    '"I thought it was only a kind of cram, such as the Dale-men make for journeys in the wild," said the Dwarf.
    "So it is," they answered...."'

    Now it is known that the Elves had a large store of waybread in Lorien, but seldom handed out their lembas to those not of the Eldar, for fear that the non-Elves would desire immortality as well after tasting it. However, nowhere is it said that the Lady would hand out the bread to the Elves themselves rarely, and only at great need; or that the elves thought that lembas was really, really special, bordering on sacred. In fact, from the Elves' own words in the quote, we can see that at least they saw nothing much special in their own lembas, only as a type of waybread for long journeys, albeit a waybread superior to all others and with a recipe that only the higher-ups knew. This could be comparable to Samwise Gamgee marveling at the Elves' "magic," when in reality it was just the Elves' normal way of doing things. What seemed spectacular and even sacred to others was just another routine for the immortal Elves, and this made lembas just a special form of ration to them, nowhere approaching a sacrament.
    We sing of the Fellowship, Ho Ho! Off to the war verily they did go! Aragorn the true, Gimli the hairy, Legolas the swift, and of course Pippin and Merry! Boromir and a horn, Samwise, bag wearer, and try not to forget Frodo Baggins, the Ring-Bearer! They were off, brave and true, showing no fear! And they all came back, victorious, well except Boromir.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stasik View Post
    Now it is known that the Elves had a large store of waybread in Lorien, but seldom handed out their lembas to those not of the Eldar, for fear that the non-Elves would desire immortality as well after tasting it. However, nowhere is it said that the Lady would hand out the bread to the Elves themselves rarely, and only at great need; or that the elves thought that lembas was really, really special, bordering on sacred. In fact, from the Elves' own words in the quote, we can see that at least they saw nothing much special in their own lembas, only as a type of waybread for long journeys, albeit a waybread superior to all others and with a recipe that only the higher-ups knew. This could be comparable to Samwise Gamgee marveling at the Elves' "magic," when in reality it was just the Elves' normal way of doing things. What seemed spectacular and even sacred to others was just another routine for the immortal Elves, and this made lembas just a special form of ration to them, nowhere approaching a sacrament.
    No, it wasn't just their normal way of doing things, since as I pointed out earlier there was this whole ritual aspect to how lembas was made and kept which LOTR itself simply doesn't go into: who was allowed to grow (or even touch!) the corn, how it could be gathered (ritually, purely by hand without the use of tools), who could bake the cakes, who kept and distributed them (and that that was where the title of 'Lady' came from), to whom they should go and when, and to whom they should not go under any normal circumstances (mortals). Plus the Valar had enjoined the Elves to keep the secret of lembas to themselves and not to make it commonplace. Whatever else, it wasn't representative of the way Elves did things in general, it was a special case. Not just Elvish 'magic', but something more profound that they treated with the utmost respect. (As a direct gift from the Valar, that should hardly be surprising). It wasn't a straightforward example of Elvish craft like the rope Sam was so impressed by.

    There's also the small matter of how Tolkien deliberately suppressed all direct mention of religion in LOTR and evidently didn't want to burden his audience with tons of exposition. either. That's not the case in his notes, though, which I cited earlier. And on one specific point, you're entirely mistaken: he wrote that lembas was intended for those who were going on long journeys in the wild or those who were gravely hurt and whose life was in peril, and that 'only these were permitted to use it'. So there you go, it only went to those who really needed it.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Stasik View Post
    I wouldn't have you give up so easily! I've been rather enjoying reading your's and Radhruin's arguments, because both bring up valid points. I'd like to respond to the quote though:

    I too searched up the definition of the word sacrament, and it is almost exclusively used to refer to religious ceremonies by the Christian Church, or actions/objects in the Christian faith..
    Unfortunately for me, that "almost" is one of the things that defeated me. It was my understanding that "sacrament" derives from sacrifice, and referred only to things that were, or represented, the flesh and blood of a sacrifice, (either human, animal, or supernatural), in any religion. It turned out the definition was not so specific. In this case, my fondness for technicalities snuck around and bit me from behind...


    I still do not believe it was meant to be considered a sacrament, but must admit the possibility exists.
    Last edited by Flaxie; Sep 02 2014 at 09:33 AM.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    ...who was allowed to grow (or even touch!) the corn, how it could be gathered (ritually, purely by hand without the use of tools), who could bake the cakes, who kept and distributed them (and that that was where the title of 'Lady' came from), to whom they should go and when, and to whom they should not go under any normal circumstances (mortals).
    As I said before, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said in relation to that, and I do agree it's fascinating how much detail is given to this process elsewhere. However, one could argue whether the whole process was really as special and rare an occasion as you say for lembas to qualify as a sacrament. Even though you are right in saying LOTR doesn't go into depth about lembas, it does make one or two references that I believe are important. The first one was the quote I posted in my previous response, where Gimli takes a bite of lembas and in surprise exclaims that he thought that it was only a kind of cram. Now, if lembas really is that sacred to the elves, they would probably have told Gimli that it is so much more than what he first thought, and not just a food. Instead, however, they responded most clearly, and with no room for any other interpretation, that "It is." So they agreed that it WAS only a kind of cram, but more nourishing and strengthening than food produced by mortals. Therefore, since they thought so simply of it, it wouldn't be a sacrament.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Whatever else, it wasn't representative of the way Elves did things in general, it was a special case. Not just Elvish 'magic', but something more profound that they treated with the utmost respect. (As a direct gift from the Valar, that should hardly be surprising). It wasn't a straightforward example of Elvish craft like the rope Sam was so impressed by.
    Isn't it a straightforward example though? As I said before, it doesn't seemed like they treated the lembas itself with utmost respect, as they agreed with Gimli that it was really just another form of cram. Also, I'd like to respond with another quote, which actually comes almost immediately after that one. It was at the point where Pippin asked if the cloaks they were given were "magic:"

    "I do not know what you mean by that," answered the leader of the Elves...."we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make."

    From that quote, we can see that in all manner of elvish craft, the elves follow some sort of process to put the thought of all that they love into their creations. Now, in the making of lembas, we could assume that the elves put their love of the Valar, life, and all other things in that creation. But how would this be different from the making of the cloaks, or really any other Elven artifact? True, the corn came from Valinor, and that alone is worthy of the elves total respect. But if we are to take this quote into account, the same respect and praise for the Valar that they put into lembas is used in all other creations they make. Would this mean that their cloaks are sacraments, or their boats, baskets, hedges, and just about everything else they created? No, in reality they just put the same amount of love into lembas as they do everything else, except with the tradition that only the Lady of the Wood and her maidens would know this particular secret.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    There's also the small matter of how Tolkien deliberately suppressed all direct mention of religion in LOTR and evidently didn't want to burden his audience with tons of exposition. either. That's not the case in his notes, though, which I cited earlier. And on one specific point, you're entirely mistaken: he wrote that lembas was intended for those who were going on long journeys in the wild or those who were gravely hurt and whose life was in peril, and that 'only these were permitted to use it'. So there you go, it only went to those who really needed it.
    I'll give you this one, especially since it's mentioned in the same passage that I quoted from LOTR that it was only to be used when all else fails. I appear to have accidentally overlooked that, so you are right there.
    We sing of the Fellowship, Ho Ho! Off to the war verily they did go! Aragorn the true, Gimli the hairy, Legolas the swift, and of course Pippin and Merry! Boromir and a horn, Samwise, bag wearer, and try not to forget Frodo Baggins, the Ring-Bearer! They were off, brave and true, showing no fear! And they all came back, victorious, well except Boromir.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stasik View Post
    As I said before, I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said in relation to that, and I do agree it's fascinating how much detail is given to this process elsewhere. However, one could argue whether the whole process was really as special and rare an occasion as you say for lembas to qualify as a sacrament.
    Sorry, what? How on earth could it be more special, unless Yavanna herself turned up with the stuff on a tray?

    Even though you are right in saying LOTR doesn't go into depth about lembas, it does make one or two references that I believe are important. The first one was the quote I posted in my previous response, where Gimli takes a bite of lembas and in surprise exclaims that he thought that it was only a kind of cram. Now, if lembas really is that sacred to the elves, they would probably have told Gimli that it is so much more than what he first thought, and not just a food. Instead, however, they responded most clearly, and with no room for any other interpretation, that "It is." So they agreed that it WAS only a kind of cram, but more nourishing and strengthening than food produced by mortals. Therefore, since they thought so simply of it, it wouldn't be a sacrament.
    Which is why I pointed out that in LOTR Tolkien said he'd made a point of pushing everything to do with religion into the backgfound, so that it's confined to symbolism. He therefore wouldn't have wanted to make a big deal out of what lembas was, it being sacred, etc. However by virtue of what he says elsewhere we know there's more to it than that. We don't know what the Elves actially thought there, in any case, only what they said to the Fellowship. (Would you tell simple folk like hobbits that a gift they were being given was so precious? Or would that make them shy away from eating it?)

    Isn't it a straightforward example though? As I said before, it doesn't seemed like they treated the lembas itself with utmost respect, as they agreed with Gimli that it was really just another form of cram. Also, I'd like to respond with another quote, which actually comes almost immediately after that one. It was at the point where Pippin asked if the cloaks they were given were "magic:"

    "I do not know what you mean by that," answered the leader of the Elves...."we put the thought of all that we love into all that we make."

    From that quote, we can see that in all manner of elvish craft, the elves follow some sort of process to put the thought of all that they love into their creations. Now, in the making of lembas, we could assume that the elves put their love of the Valar, life, and all other things in that creation. But how would this be different from the making of the cloaks, or really any other Elven artifact? True, the corn came from Valinor, and that alone is worthy of the elves total respect. But if we are to take this quote into account, the same respect and praise for the Valar that they put into lembas is used in all other creations they make. Would this mean that their cloaks are sacraments, or their boats, baskets, hedges, and just about everything else they created? No, in reality they just put the same amount of love into lembas as they do everything else, except with the tradition that only the Lady of the Wood and her maidens would know this particular secret.
    Don't generalise. As I've pointed out already there was a unique ingredient in lembas which was handled reverentially by the Lady and her maidens, i.e. it was given more attention and respect than anything normal would have been, up to and including them gathering each ear of grain individually, entirely by hand. Don't try to tell me they did something like that for everything. it wasn't mundane, it was Valinorean and a gift from Yavanna besides and they treated it accordingly. It wasn't just a matter of knowing how to bake great cakes, the stuff had great virtue to it to begin with. And besides, it's simply not true that the Elves put the same degree of effort into everything, since we have examples of great Elvish smiths putting extraordinary effort into great works: Feanor and the Silmarils is the most obvious, since he put so much of himself into making those that he said he couldn't have done it twice. A real labour of (obsessive) love.

  20. #70
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    This thread is in danger of becoming one of those lore slug-fests, where the original discussion has long been forgotten and instead the same two people argue it out over and over and over about the smallest aspect of minutiae that a first class honours graduate of Pedantry from the University of Argument would be proud of. Can you please open up another thread so we can get back to the original points? - which were mounted combat raiding and lore
    <A sig goes here>

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post
    This thread is in danger of becoming one of those lore slug-fests, where the original discussion has long been forgotten and instead the same two people argue it out over and over and over about the smallest aspect of minutiae that a first class honours graduate of Pedantry from the University of Argument would be proud of. Can you please open up another thread so we can get back to the original points? - which were mounted combat raiding and lore
    If you want to go back to the original points (assuming anyone had anything left to say), then just go back to them. Nobody's stopping you,

  22. #72
    I play a guard and I love MC! Not fond of an idea to "fix" a game by removing things others may like. Outside of some quests in RoR you don't have to use the mount. Go on foot if you wish....

  23. #73
    The game doesn't really need saving. They have very little left before the Ring is destroyed, so they'll have no trouble completing the storyline before the game ends at the end of 2017.

 

 
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