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  1. #26
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinellas View Post
    Rivalry. Competition. Team work. All great reasons to pvp. To play with bitterness towards other people in a game makes absolute no sense. It is a game after all.

    Animosity killed Ridder.
    o_O.

    Animosity is like the bad aftertaste to rivalry and competition. I don't like playing with the feeling of animosity towards other players (no one does) but I think it's much deeper than spitefulness/bitterness. Animosity does not only come from words; you can definitely see genuine examples of "physical" (player's actions) animosity if you pay even a sliver of attention to the things happening around you.

    Teaming up with a couple of friends to single out a player (because maybe you don't like they way they play, the class they play, their personality, or just because you can) and repeatedly foxhunt/gank/zerg/defile that player until he/she loses interest in playing when any of you play is extreme animosity.

    Animosity is the bad aftertaste of rivalry and competition: you will find it in not only games but football, careers, etc... AKA real life too. It's a part of the human psyche.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Have a look at the forums before the intol transfer and the tidal wave of tears that followed adino. People came out just to roll him, it worked for a long long time. Then when intol showed and started flipping the map red and turtling in TR waiting for freeps to take it back by force, same thing people showed because they wanted to see loogy and durtz die. Then the care bears rolled in, then it went in the crapper.

    Ridder was fine for years.

    Timewarp to two-three years ago when Aza and Adino were butting heads (aka 'good action'), swap out the DR and delving stones for the current commendation grind, PvE ranking, heal-offs, and ultimate infamy/glory boosts from holding keeps = what the moors is like (collectively) now.


    tl;dr: c'mon guys, it's not the people... it's the game.


    -- Akara

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Australia
    Posts
    400
    Quote Originally Posted by blays7x View Post
    o_O.

    Animosity is like the bad aftertaste to rivalry and competition. I don't like playing with the feeling of animosity towards other players (no one does) but I think it's much deeper than spitefulness/bitterness. Animosity does not only come from words; you can definitely see genuine examples of "physical" (player's actions) animosity if you pay even a sliver of attention to the things happening around you.

    Teaming up with a couple of friends to single out a player (because maybe you don't like they way they play, the class they play, their personality, or just because you can) and repeatedly foxhunt/gank/zerg/defile that player until he/she loses interest in playing when any of you play is extreme animosity.

    Animosity is the bad aftertaste of rivalry and competition: you will find it in not only games but football, careers, etc... AKA real life too. It's a part of the human psyche.




    Timewarp to two-three years ago when Aza and Adino were butting heads (aka 'good action'), swap out the DR and delving stones for the current commendation grind, PvE ranking, heal-offs, and ultimate infamy/glory boosts from holding keeps = what the moors is like (collectively) now.


    tl;dr: c'mon guys, it's not the people... it's the game.


    -- Akara
    Shhh!
    #10CharactersLong
    A secret.

  4. #29
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    Red face

    Keep calm and think about turtles!

    «Mukal-1»

  5. #30
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    Oct 2010
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    Philadelphia
    Posts
    714
    This is where Adino had it right. At least when he logged on you knew a whole raid would come out just to roll him

  6. #31
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    Nov 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hfhah View Post
    Hi friend. How are you?
    Harthie! I wasn't "drunk and ignoring you" lol, I went afk and ended up getting enlisted for Christmas lights duty. "Come back! Come back! To Brandyzerg we will take you."
    Punk's dead, you're next!

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by mattg18 View Post


    like this...good times good times...just need an evenia in that fight and the trifecta would be complete

    Classic ^_^
    Commander Daenath, The Death Breeder

  8. #33
    That awkward moment when you think about playing again...

    How's it going fam, worth it or nah?

    btw hope yall had a good christmas and hope i can catch up with some of yall (tbow *cough*). Only the cool people though, sorry ren

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunerx View Post
    That awkward moment when you think about playing again...

    Feeling that same way for the past few days. Hope anyone who reads this and recognizes Ostara the warden or Anke the RK is doing well. I'm in Galtrev right now and glff (world chat?) is full of unpronounceable, unfamiliar names.

    And you specifically, Guner -- you better be doing awesome!
    Ostara | Anke

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohstaruh View Post
    Feeling that same way for the past few days. Hope anyone who reads this and recognizes Ostara the warden or Anke the RK is doing well. I'm in Galtrev right now and glff (world chat?) is full of unpronounceable, unfamiliar names.

    And you specifically, Guner -- you better be doing awesome!
    Some still play... just either on Brandy or Landy. Still play regularly myself. Miss you ostaraaaa.

    - Wadric

  11. #36
    Greetings Anke, haven't seen your name around for a while. But yeah, most of the folks that were here a couple years ago have all transferred or quit the game. World chat has a fresh batch of names every night. I admit I don't check very often anymore because it's a waste of time, but the Moors doesn't ever seem to have any action. With that......welcome back, and enjoy your stay!
    ~Riddermark~ 2010-2015
    ~Landroval~|BigLloyde (GRD)||Borofir (CH)||Backwaush (DEF)||Aurmpit (RVR)|
    ~Arkenstone~|Mrjingles-1 (WRG)||Achselhohle (DEF)|

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    6,072
    Anke, have no fear if you log on long enough, at some point in world chat you'll likely be blessed to read the enchanting discourse surrounding dragon.

    If you are really lucky, maybe Ronin will log on and be wasted.

    Otherwise move along, nothing to see.


  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Here's three problems:

    1. Creating rivalry is a no go, the butt hurt gets you reported and banned. Rivalry creates good pvp we always had it here on ridder the filthy stinking care bears killed it.
    Rivalry without respect kills action in pvp, I saw it on my server, people don't want to get killed by those who will mock them and rub it in their noses so you end up with zergs or hugs to kill or not be killed by those you h8 in game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post

    2. The PVE content for freeps has been dumbed down. Really freeps have been spoon fed easy simplistic content since mirkwood. When was the last time you were in a raid where a conjunction (yes thats what they are called) was actually needed and if one went off someone said something other than "everyone go blue". This has created the conditions by which expecations have been altered and freeps simply dont know what to do. Being killed isnt a go, its simply an unexplained condition that has literally been almost void since U3
    Yeah PVE is not much fun, quests are so boring doesn't feel lik,e an adventure at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post

    3. 1v1 vs RvR: no matter what your preference you cant win. If you enjoy raid fights you are a raid baby, if you enjoy 1v1's you are a fight clubber. Riddermark population has an uncanny ability to essentially disqualify anyone for anything they do. We used to have a guy here called Costs. He pretty much played the game the way he wanted and was essentially ridden out on a rail. Same with Revolution, to a lesser degree intol. The QQ about how other people play is very, very high on riddermark. Now for some that isnt an issue, for others they simply dont want to hear it.
    The moaners and whiners who constantly criticize and attack other players the other side for everything they do are ultimately the ones who have killed pvp as those always being criticized eventually think Meh CBA with this Life's too short.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post

    BONUS: You have people who believe that other servers hold the key, that population is crucial for good pvp. What happens then is you get the very real slap of reality that lotro PvP really isnt much at all. There is really is a minimum of things to do that have strategic value beyond a few delving buff's. As an example, freeps take TA, creeps if they take it back get a 3k commendation reward. OP? Ridiculous? maybe but the point is there is no real challenge in lotro pvp, the game is at its core identical to what it was 3,5,7 years ago. Its just another mmo grind, you get a rank for killing the enemy, nothing spectacular at all really.
    Don't forget the forum bans as well, most of my old time buddies got banned for arguing about pvmp on forums, small infractions built up, but when they got banned, they left the game. Silly that Turbine had such a strict policy, it helped kill the game not build it.

  14. #39
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    Feb 2011
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    Iowa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post

    3. 1v1 vs RvR: no matter what your preference you cant win. If you enjoy raid fights you are a raid baby, if you enjoy 1v1's you are a fight clubber. Riddermark population has an uncanny ability to essentially disqualify anyone for anything they do. We used to have a guy here called Costs. He pretty much played the game the way he wanted and was essentially ridden out on a rail. Same with Revolution, to a lesser degree intol. The QQ about how other people play is very, very high on riddermark. Now for some that isnt an issue, for others they simply dont want to hear it.
    The only people I heard calling others clubbers were the ones who couldn't 1v1 and had to resort to grouping to get their kills. As for raid babies, and I can only speak for myself and not the entire population, they are the ones who raid nearly 100% of the time they are outside of gv and can't function solo. There are plenty of good players who raided or grouped most of their time in the moors, in Revo and Intol but I wouldn't consider them raid babies. Revo and Intol also both had players that were absolute garbage on their own and relied on their group-mates for everything. If I caught them solo I could rip them a new one without any effort. The ones who didn't take the time to learn how to fight on their own.

    As for Costs, he would take a 3rd and 4th OP and then camp them to kill the greenies that came to take it back. I get that that was his style, but you can't get much lower than that. It takes all of the challenge out of fights and I don't even know how he could have fun with no challenge. It's like bombing a hospital in war, you just don't do it. Some members of Revo would never leave GV without a group, regardless of how many creeps were out. When 3-4 ungrouped creeps continuously get rolled by a fellowship they are only going to stick around for so long before they quit. Revo's goal was probably to make the creeps group up and fight back, which would have worked when Ridder was in its prime, but at the time there just weren't enough creeps playing or enough creep raid tribes active to form a group to fight back.

    And back to your first point. Rivalry is needed. There were nights when I would stay out just to keep harassing a creep group I didn't like, or I would form a freep group to fight back because I didn't want to give them the satisfaction of a rage quit. But respect is also needed, it keeps the competition in the moors.

  15. #40
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    6,072
    Quote Originally Posted by tamlong View Post
    Rivalry without respect kills action in pvp, I saw it on my server, people don't want to get killed by those who will mock them and rub it in their noses so you end up with zergs or hugs to kill or not be killed by those you h8 in game.
    This wasnt always the case, rivalry without respect created action. Please go back to the threads about adino and the endless QQ about his raids, everyone was out for it, no one liked one another and everyone got points. No one respected him, he was called every name in the book. *shrug* I dont personally care how people feel, I am and was a casual player but the facts for riddermark PvP, historically dont support your claim.


    The moaners and whiners who constantly criticize and attack other players the other side for everything they do are ultimately the ones who have killed pvp as those always being criticized eventually think Meh CBA with this Life's too short.
    Again disagree. What is killing and killed PvP are really 5 items, here are the quick bullets as im not going to expand on it here:

    1. Homogenized classes cumulating with new trait trees.
    2. Uncapping of stats for freeps at 75 and the ridiculous damage they did made many pack up and leave for good.
    3. The recalculation of mitigations for freeps when they QQ'd about content being to easy. This PvE fix porked them in the moors and a lot of them packed up and left.
    4. The lag. Items 2-3 created the conditions by which people accumulated onto specific pvp servers all those people together have created tremendous lag. The game is literally unplayable in the moors at times.
    5. Turbine created the conditions by which Creep classes are as powerful as their freep counter parts in most cases. What it doesnt account for is numbers. A RvR fight now with similar toon composition is actually pretty balanced. Because of it, one side or the other who has even a small amount of numeric advantage is going to likely wipe the other. There are exceptions but thats the norm.



    Don't forget the forum bans as well, most of my old time buddies got banned for arguing about pvmp on forums, small infractions built up, but when they got banned, they left the game. Silly that Turbine had such a strict policy, it helped kill the game not build it.
    I have served 7 day. 24 hour, 30 day, 90 day and 180 day bans on these forums because some sniffling pile of #### couldnt put me on ignore and the sapience secret police went running to him "OMG he said something mean". The filthy stinking care bears that pollute this game with their idealistic nonsense about how a gaming community should be and are willing to go to whatever lengths they can to have people banned should be hunted down and perm banned for the damage they have done to the game. I mean living without my entertaining prose for more then a day must have been a trial.

    That said, yes the care bears helped kill the forum community. All they have to do is ignore the people they dont want to read but that wasnt enough.


  16. #41
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    Apr 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaern48 View Post
    The only people I heard calling others clubbers were the ones who couldn't 1v1 and had to resort to grouping to get their kills. As for raid babies, and I can only speak for myself and not the entire population, they are the ones who raid nearly 100% of the time they are outside of gv and can't function solo. There are plenty of good players who raided or grouped most of their time in the moors, in Revo and Intol but I wouldn't consider them raid babies. Revo and Intol also both had players that were absolute garbage on their own and relied on their group-mates for everything. If I caught them solo I could rip them a new one without any effort. The ones who didn't take the time to learn how to fight on their own.

    As for Costs, he would take a 3rd and 4th OP and then camp them to kill the greenies that came to take it back. I get that that was his style, but you can't get much lower than that. It takes all of the challenge out of fights and I don't even know how he could have fun with no challenge. It's like bombing a hospital in war, you just don't do it. Some members of Revo would never leave GV without a group, regardless of how many creeps were out. When 3-4 ungrouped creeps continuously get rolled by a fellowship they are only going to stick around for so long before they quit. Revo's goal was probably to make the creeps group up and fight back, which would have worked when Ridder was in its prime, but at the time there just weren't enough creeps playing or enough creep raid tribes active to form a group to fight back.

    And back to your first point. Rivalry is needed. There were nights when I would stay out just to keep harassing a creep group I didn't like, or I would form a freep group to fight back because I didn't want to give them the satisfaction of a rage quit. But respect is also needed, it keeps the competition in the moors.
    I like RvR fights, anyone who has played with me or against me knows that. I solo maybe 25% of the time and always have, I simply didnt and dont have hours on end to roam around i could play an hour or so at a sitting, maybe 2 on a weekend night. It wasnt until about a year or a year and a half ago that i really learned how to mouse turn well enough to actually survive on my own. Its a critical skill and I admit for a long time I was a key board turner. I still do it when Im lazy but garbage players are everywhere. What is garbage? I dont know really ive been called everything myself, i like to think im better then average most of the time but often am below average.

    Im going to be very frank with you about Revolution since we have all moved on. Some might attempt to dispel this but I played with them on other servers i have a good chunk of time vested with the group. They always wanted a good fight and didnt care what the odds were. No one bitched when we were being wiped by twice our numbers. However the goal was never to get creeps to do anything but die and in as a horrific manner as possible. it wasnt the intent to just win, it was the intent to absolutely dominate the server and ultimately see it destroyed. That happened, tribes crumbled, some transfered away because it was to tough. In the end some freep groups couldnt hack it either.

    The goal was complete domination of the riddermark server's PvP. Years from now if someone asks me about LOTRO and what my best memory is it will be this snipet of a convo I had in team speak.

    Bag: "hey cal we need to chat"
    Cal : "okay whats up"

    "blu chuckles in the back round and Grish posts in TS chat "#### tumbly"

    Bag:"the meeting is going to be about moving to brandy, I know you might not be on so I wanted to give you a heads up"

    Cal: "ya heard a rumor about that"

    Bag: " we killed riddermark, there isnt anything here to fight anymore they crumbled much faster than we thought. We at least hoped that when EST made a creep tribe that would bring it back, nothing its dead and we killed it"

    Cal: "Yes bag its dead and to be honest, it was an honor for me to have played a small part in the complete destruction of the riddermark moors"

    Bag: "but this is your home server"

    Cal: "I hate everyone anyways"

    "blu chuckles in the back round and Grish posts in TS chat "#### tumbly"


  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    I like RvR fights, anyone who has played with me or against me knows that. I solo maybe 25% of the time and always have, I simply didnt and dont have hours on end to roam around i could play an hour or so at a sitting, maybe 2 on a weekend night. It wasnt until about a year or a year and a half ago that i really learned how to mouse turn well enough to actually survive on my own. Its a critical skill and I admit for a long time I was a key board turner. I still do it when Im lazy but garbage players are everywhere. What is garbage? I dont know really ive been called everything myself, i like to think im better then average most of the time but often am below average.

    Im going to be very frank with you about Revolution since we have all moved on. Some might attempt to dispel this but I played with them on other servers i have a good chunk of time vested with the group. They always wanted a good fight and didnt care what the odds were. No one bitched when we were being wiped by twice our numbers. However the goal was never to get creeps to do anything but die and in as a horrific manner as possible. it wasnt the intent to just win, it was the intent to absolutely dominate the server and ultimately see it destroyed. That happened, tribes crumbled, some transfered away because it was to tough. In the end some freep groups couldnt hack it either.

    The goal was complete domination of the riddermark server's PvP. Years from now if someone asks me about LOTRO and what my best memory is it will be this snipet of a convo I had in team speak.

    Bag: "hey cal we need to chat"
    Cal : "okay whats up"

    "blu chuckles in the back round and Grish posts in TS chat "#### tumbly"

    Bag:"the meeting is going to be about moving to brandy, I know you might not be on so I wanted to give you a heads up"

    Cal: "ya heard a rumor about that"

    Bag: " we killed riddermark, there isnt anything here to fight anymore they crumbled much faster than we thought. We at least hoped that when EST made a creep tribe that would bring it back, nothing its dead and we killed it"

    Cal: "Yes bag its dead and to be honest, it was an honor for me to have played a small part in the complete destruction of the riddermark moors"

    Bag: "but this is your home server"

    Cal: "I hate everyone anyways"

    "blu chuckles in the back round and Grish posts in TS chat "#### tumbly"
    Heh this brings something to mind! Have you ever played KOTOR 2 ?
    .

    Freeps- Deok lvl 95 Hunter
    Creeps - Cintona Rank 11 Darkblits Rank 7

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by motumbo View Post
    Heh this brings something to mind! Have you ever played KOTOR 2 ?
    Yes i have played Knights of the old republic. Gaming, golf, hunting/fishing outdoors are my primary hobbies. Ive tried just about every game on the market in some form.


  19. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    108
    Hello Everyone, pvp is only dead on Elendilmir if both sides don't have a leader. Anyways pvp doesn't catch my attention anymore and I'm busy with college to even play the game much anymore. I definitely do miss the good times I had with people in Riddermark, but I just want to wish everyone a Happy New Year and hope maybe Riddermark pvp will be revived in 2015. I'm sure lack of leadership on both sides is what made pvp go dead. That's why Riddermark pvp was high when both Adino and Aza(I think that's his name) were fighting each other constantly each day. Also the stupid constant op flips are annoying as hell and made some people just want to flip it all day.
    - Second Marshall Battalion-1 ( Currently Semi-retired from Lotro )

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohstaruh View Post
    Feeling that same way for the past few days. Hope anyone who reads this and recognizes Ostara the warden or Anke the RK is doing well. I'm in Galtrev right now and glff (world chat?) is full of unpronounceable, unfamiliar names.

    And you specifically, Guner -- you better be doing awesome!
    Mate! Im doing great, hbu?

    Should let me know a time you might be on and ill try and log on and catch up with ya

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    400
    Look at you people... You and your LotRO.
    A secret.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Yes i have played Knights of the old republic. Gaming, golf, hunting/fishing outdoors are my primary hobbies. Ive tried just about every game on the market in some form.
    Do you remember Sith Lord Nihilus
    .

    Freeps- Deok lvl 95 Hunter
    Creeps - Cintona Rank 11 Darkblits Rank 7

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    I like RvR fights, anyone who has played with me or against me knows that. I solo maybe 25% of the time and always have, I simply didnt and dont have hours on end to roam around i could play an hour or so at a sitting, maybe 2 on a weekend night. It wasnt until about a year or a year and a half ago that i really learned how to mouse turn well enough to actually survive on my own. Its a critical skill and I admit for a long time I was a key board turner. I still do it when Im lazy but garbage players are everywhere. What is garbage? I dont know really ive been called everything myself, i like to think im better then average most of the time but often am below average.

    Im going to be very frank with you about Revolution since we have all moved on. Some might attempt to dispel this but I played with them on other servers i have a good chunk of time vested with the group. They always wanted a good fight and didnt care what the odds were. No one bitched when we were being wiped by twice our numbers. However the goal was never to get creeps to do anything but die and in as a horrific manner as possible. it wasnt the intent to just win, it was the intent to absolutely dominate the server and ultimately see it destroyed. That happened, tribes crumbled, some transfered away because it was to tough. In the end some freep groups couldnt hack it either.

    The goal was complete domination of the riddermark server's PvP. Years from now if someone asks me about LOTRO and what my best memory is it will be this snipet of a convo I had in team speak.

    Bag: "hey cal we need to chat"
    Cal : "okay whats up"

    "blu chuckles in the back round and Grish posts in TS chat "#### tumbly"

    Bag:"the meeting is going to be about moving to brandy, I know you might not be on so I wanted to give you a heads up"

    Cal: "ya heard a rumor about that"

    Bag: " we killed riddermark, there isnt anything here to fight anymore they crumbled much faster than we thought. We at least hoped that when EST made a creep tribe that would bring it back, nothing its dead and we killed it"

    Cal: "Yes bag its dead and to be honest, it was an honor for me to have played a small part in the complete destruction of the riddermark moors"

    Bag: "but this is your home server"

    Cal: "I hate everyone anyways"

    "blu chuckles in the back round and Grish posts in TS chat "#### tumbly"
    I'm going to assume this is a joke buuut Revo didn't kill this server, they played once a week. For most of there time here they got farmed. I got 20-30k every Friday night, they did however get more numbers when they started inviting everyone who asked and when transfers opened. Now they're on Brandy with even more trash players than yourself in there kin, Revolution is just a random garbage open invite kin that's over hyped because this game is dead and they still have numbers.

    If this was 50-65 cap they'd be considered just a Minions of Mordor equivalent. There's even a video on youtube of Revo running in to there own keep on Riddermark.

    If anything Revolution made Riddermark last longer than it did. I guess it's easy for you to go forum to forum now with having nobody responding to you, but everyone knows who Callanor/Whatever your terrible wargs name was, is. So settle down and get a new hobby because I'm not going to respond again and doubt anyone else is, so what's the point of spreading around trash?

  24. #49
    you are all bad, and should feel bad.

    There is nothing here but memories. The problem with memories is we block out all the bad ones, and romance them as being good. Sure, Raidino brought the fights. Sure, Aza brought the greenie raids to counter. Sure, Filet xferred back when needed. Sure, Intol was something to do.

    Flashback to that time, and ask yourself. Were you really happy? Or are you now just romancing a figment of something that was never really good to begin with.

    The only good memories I have of pvp ended when RoI launched.

    Hai Akara, hope college is well. Nath and Germs, you graduate yet? Go Duke

    PS: Hi Osty, you were my first friend I ever made, in the first kin we ever joined, Crazed Champions of the South. I do have good memories facerolling in angmar with you, your hippy cosmetic and all. We spent months there lol. You played the warden your way, +rep
    Jawbreakerz(R10), OptimusKrime(R11), Bromanceswithwargs(R10), Pentacle(R12), AllOveryourFace(R9), Throatrip(R10), Charlottesweb(R9)-DI,Atrocity,Intol
    Thunderbow(R9), Triplexxx(R10), Airlyn(R11), Creepingdeath(R8), AllOverYourChin(R12), Valerial(R9)

  25. #50
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    6,072
    Quote Originally Posted by DeLaFon View Post
    I'm going to assume this is a joke buuut Revo didn't kill this server, they played once a week. For most of there time here they got farmed. I got 20-30k every Friday night, they did however get more numbers when they started inviting everyone who asked and when transfers opened. Now they're on Brandy with even more trash players than yourself in there kin, Revolution is just a random garbage open invite kin that's over hyped because this game is dead and they still have numbers.

    If this was 50-65 cap they'd be considered just a Minions of Mordor equivalent. There's even a video on youtube of Revo running in to there own keep on Riddermark.

    If anything Revolution made Riddermark last longer than it did. I guess it's easy for you to go forum to forum now with having nobody responding to you, but everyone knows who Callanor/Whatever your terrible wargs name was, is. So settle down and get a new hobby because I'm not going to respond again and doubt anyone else is, so what's the point of spreading around trash?
    You poor baby, did you die in a pvp zone. You didnt get 20-30k every friday night, you and I both know that unless you farmed.

    Cry more, moron.


 

 
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