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  1. #76

    Boxing IS Rank Farming

    /signed
    I Agree with others.
    Boxing = Rank Farming and is cheating.
    Stop it. Boxing kills the spirit of the game and makes play not enjoyable for the community.

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellodh View Post
    turbine can only understand the language of $$.
    Turbine can't fallback on the excuse of "it's just business" this time. They use it a lot, but this time it makes no sense.

    They repeatedly ignore the PVP community because "it's only 10% of the population". In other words, PVP is not enough money to give a #### about.

    Multiboxing is an extreme minority within the PVP minority. If PVP as a whole is not big enough to care about, a dozen or so boxers is definitely not enough. "It's just business" and "we need the $$$" doesn't work as excuses for them this time.

    This is just a lack of integrity.

  3. #78
    For better or worse the only vote that will really count is your wallet.

  4. #79
    /signed

    boxing= farming yourself and cheating

  5. #80
    Macros and multi-boxing are completely different things. LOTRO has repeatedly stated that they will do nothing about multi-boxing (as you saw for yourself). Any further complaining or discussion is a complete waste of time.

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by superboxer2 View Post
    Macros and multi-boxing are completely different things. LOTRO has repeatedly stated that they will do nothing about multi-boxing (as you saw for yourself). Any further complaining or discussion is a complete waste of time.
    I think we both know it will happen, and there will be change in the policy... until then , the wording in the rules let's devs think until they find a good way to fix the issue.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by superboxer2 View Post
    Macros and multi-boxing are completely different things. LOTRO has repeatedly stated that they will do nothing about multi-boxing (as you saw for yourself). Any further complaining or discussion is a complete waste of time.
    They also said at one time farm ranking while frowned apon wasn't against the CoC but as you now know that has changed.

    Anything is possible and more probable in the near future but until then there will be boxers on all server will no skills trying to act good but in fact are pretty badly skilled.

    Haven't seen one yet that couldn't easily be taken down and I doubt I ever will.

  8. #83

    Don't disable /follow

    Do not disable /follow in the moors. I understand that you can multibox with /follow, but if there is a little big of lag and I am on my warg I use /follow to make sure I can know where my target is. Maybe make it so people can't /follow more than one person or a person with /follow cannot be followed. But if someone needs to go afk, or follow an enemy, /folow is good.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by CSM_River View Post
    Greetings, all!

    Bottom line, multi-boxing is allowed. What we don’t like are bots; we don’t like players who set up third party programs to run a character through cycles of fighting in an effort to level, or gain loot. But multi-boxing is a player who will control all characters.

    Someone also mentioned Fight-clubbing. If people want to 1v1 we will allow it, as long as they aren’t just feeding rep to each other.

    -River
    With the greatest of respect, you are completely wrong - and it is this nonchalant attitude that has totally killed pvp in this game for the last 4 years.
    A pvp environment is there to challenge 2 opposing players or groups of players NOT a player who decides to use some 3rd party software to control a horde of other characters.
    If you think that even a single serious minded individual enters the moors with his other multiboxing chars. on follow and plays each individually, then you are scarily in the wrong job.

    Multi-boxing is fine in PVE - I DO IT MYSELF !! IT IS FUN !! BUT BUT BUT >>>>

    In a pvp environment it is morally wrong. And for you to condone it in this fashion is unbelievable.

    In my opinion it is on a par with Macroing and slightly ahead of Rank Farming. So, equal to the worse crime in pvp atm.

    When will you stop looking at stats/data to work out what is morally right.
    Look into your soul and make a decision for once because it is right.
    Not because the accountants won't like it or it might upset a few more players than by leaving it alone.

    Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but they whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves their conduct, will pursue their principles unto death.
    WHY DO PEOPLE WHO KNOW THE LEAST, KNOW IT THE LOUDEST?

  10. #85
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    Just curious if anyone had any answers for my earlier questions...
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    I have a few questions I'm hoping someone could answer for me. And before I ask them, I'll start with a few basics. While I have PvMped for a few years (so far only on Riddermark, which currently is PvMP-dead, and Landroval), I have never personally witnessed this kind of phenomenon. That said, I have watched the videos. I personally do not multi-box. Firstly, my computer has a hard time with 1 client some of the time. Trying 2 would be pointless. And even then I'm not sure how keen I'd be on setting up extra accounts.

    And I'd like to say that I am against /follow being disabled. Disabling legitimate parts of the game because of griefers seriously sucks. This is the same reason we can't turn in quests in combat anymore. Because some low-life cheaters decided to use festival quests to instaport them out of the Moors, cheating the creeps out of their infamy. I seriously do not like that move. And now that festivals are rewarding maps (which can't be used in the Moors anyway), I'm further annoyed that this feature still exists in game. It's really annoying to be unable to turn in a quest because you are (sometimes stuck) in combat. -.- Likewise, I do not think a legitimate part of the game (/follow) should be disabled because of griefers. In the Moors it is common practice among the people I fraid with to put themselves on /follow to the leader to ensure that they stay tight on him/her, because players who lag behind get zerged by wargs and often end up dead. Putting oneself on /follow to the leader helps you keep up. I prefer to run under my own steam, but others prefer to use /follow. They are still there, though, and they are independently running their own machines and do their own fighting once a battle commences.

    Now to the questions I had.

    Turbine clearly says third party software is against the rules. How do they identify when third party software is being used?

    If multiboxers in the Moors aren't using third party software, then it seems like either A: they genuinely are controlling all clients on their own, or B: the extras are just on follow and not taking an active role in the fight. It seems like in the latter case multiboxers could just park the extras some place safe. So long as they are in the fellowship and within the Moors, they'll still get credit. The only point in dragging them along is to be bantha fodder -- to hopefully get targeted first by the other side, giving the "real" player a chance to escape. So, for the question, if they aren't using third party software, how could either A or B be a bad thing? Everything I've seen in the videos seems to indicate that all the extras are taking an active role in combat*. If the player is not controlling them all him/herself, isn't third party software the only alternative?

    So ultimately it seems to come down to third party software. If they are using it, they are breaking the rules. If they aren't using it, then what is unfair about what they are doing? It seems like the anger towards multiboxers is being misdirected and should instead be targeted at those who are using third party software.

    Lastly, if third party software is not being used, how is it any different than in PvE? If third party software isn't being used, then the player is controlling all of them manually, be it PvE or PvMP. That seems fair to me. If someone is that talented in multitasking, then more power to them. If the extras are just on /follow and not fighting (not seen any evidence of this so far), then it's basically like a player carrying around training dummies. The extras would just stand there and get killed because the player is too busy on the main character.

    *=The exception would be where creeps and/or freeps (perhaps all creeps, considering the costs involved with getting a bunch of freeps into the Moors) are just lined up into rows and the same person(s) just mow them right down, and then drag them back. But that's rank farming and already not allowed. It's rank farming via multiboxing. The multiboxing isn't against the rules. The rank farming part is.
    I'm not sure how Turbine can tell if people are using third party software. The software the boxers are using I think is found here: http://isboxer.com/. The answer to your question is that how many AREN'T using third party software or a switch with multiple computers? The bots are not just on follow and are not just cannon fodder. They are in fact fighting and using ONE button to activate 6 bots at once. Look at the screenshot I posted earlier in the thread, you can see all of them are activating their skills at once. When someone goes from having no dots to having dots from 6 boxers in seconds, they are using some sort of software to do it. Most if not all (at least in the moors) boxers are using something to make it the most effective that they can.

    If they were sitting there activating all of their skills utilizing 6 keyboards, it would be pointless and ineffective, the toons would be dead before the person could react using their keyboards. 6 keyboards are alot to go through in a fast paced environment. The point of boxing is to be ezmode. Its not misdirected anger, hey if they want to control 6 toons using 6 keyboards in the moors, by all means I'll show you a dead toon. 1 button 6 skills is the problem. And Turbine does nothing about it.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    I'm not sure how Turbine can tell if people are using third party software. The software the boxers are using I think is found here: http://isboxer.com/. The answer to your question is that how many AREN'T using third party software or a switch with multiple computers? The bots are not just on follow and are not just cannon fodder. They are in fact fighting and using ONE button to activate 6 bots at once. Look at the screenshot I posted earlier in the thread, you can see all of them are activating their skills at once. When someone goes from having no dots to having dots from 6 boxers in seconds, they are using some sort of software to do it. Most if not all (at least in the moors) boxers are using something to make it the most effective that they can.

    If they were sitting there activating all of their skills utilizing 6 keyboards, it would be pointless and ineffective, the toons would be dead before the person could react using their keyboards. 6 keyboards are alot to go through in a fast paced environment. The point of boxing is to be ezmode. Its not misdirected anger, hey if they want to control 6 toons using 6 keyboards in the moors, by all means I'll show you a dead toon. 1 button 6 skills is the problem. And Turbine does nothing about it.
    I see. Never really heard of that software before.

    The part that keeps tripping me up is this part you say here:

    The answer to your question is that how many AREN'T using third party software or a switch with multiple computers? The bots are not just on follow and are not just cannon fodder. They are in fact fighting and using ONE button to activate 6 bots at once.

    Without 3rd party software, how is that even possible? Someone else pointed out that your keyboard actions only control 1 window at a time. Otherwise you'd have to ensure no other applications (firefox, teamspeak, etc) are running, otherwise your keyboard commands would interfere with them as well. So it seems impossible to control more than 1 LOTRO client at a game without 3rd party software.

    Which would seem to point right back to the rule against 3rd party software. It just seems to me the problem is identifying and dealing with those using 3rd party software, and not a problem with multiboxing in the Moors in and of itself.

    As an example, let's say I make 5 more accounts. I log in 6 creeps. I take the 5 extras and put them on /follow to my main. I then proceed to control only my one main (because, as you say, it seems a bit chaotic and inefficient to use multiple keyboards, and it seems clear that anything else used to control the other 5 would involve 3rd party software).

    So ultimately it's me with 5 alts in tow who take no part in the action. Would anyone have a problem with that form of multiboxing in the moors? I honestly don't see what the point of this would be (except in the extra loot to sell or whatever), but still... Would that form of multiboxing in the Moors be a problem for anyone?

    Because, again, it just seems like the true point of contention here has to do with the use of 3rd party software. Not the actual act of multiboxing.

    In which case Turbine's stance about mutliboxing would be okay and accurate. The part that doesn't sit well is that there seems to be no action taken against those using the 3rd party software. Either because the GMs don't notice or some other reason.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    I see. Never really heard of that software before.

    The part that keeps tripping me up is this part you say here:

    The answer to your question is that how many AREN'T using third party software or a switch with multiple computers? The bots are not just on follow and are not just cannon fodder. They are in fact fighting and using ONE button to activate 6 bots at once.

    Without 3rd party software, how is that even possible? Someone else pointed out that your keyboard actions only control 1 window at a time. Otherwise you'd have to ensure no other applications (firefox, teamspeak, etc) are running, otherwise your keyboard commands would interfere with them as well. So it seems impossible to control more than 1 LOTRO client at a game without 3rd party software.

    Which would seem to point right back to the rule against 3rd party software. It just seems to me the problem is identifying and dealing with those using 3rd party software, and not a problem with multiboxing in the Moors in and of itself.

    As an example, let's say I make 5 more accounts. I log in 6 creeps. I take the 5 extras and put them on /follow to my main. I then proceed to control only my one main (because, as you say, it seems a bit chaotic and inefficient to use multiple keyboards, and it seems clear that anything else used to control the other 5 would involve 3rd party software).

    So ultimately it's me with 5 alts in tow who take no part in the action. Would anyone have a problem with that form of multiboxing in the moors? I honestly don't see what the point of this would be (except in the extra loot to sell or whatever), but still... Would that form of multiboxing in the Moors be a problem for anyone?

    Because, again, it just seems like the true point of contention here has to do with the use of 3rd party software. Not the actual act of multiboxing.

    In which case Turbine's stance about mutliboxing would be okay and accurate. The part that doesn't sit well is that there seems to be no action taken against those using the 3rd party software. Either because the GMs don't notice or some other reason.
    Even with your toons in tow and doing nothing theyre getting ranked without doing anything so yes i have a problem with it.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL View Post
    Even with your toons in tow and doing nothing theyre getting ranked without doing anything so yes i have a problem with it.
    People go afk in GV all the time for one reason or another and most people don't just kick them out of the fraid for it.

    If the main player of that troupe of boxers is good enough to survive on his own then he deserves the renown. It's no different if I, for example, brought out a friend who was completely useless in PvMP. In fact, I felt very much like dead weight on my lvl-scaled minstrel a few months ago. At such an extremely low level I contributed absolutely nothing to the fight and was still earning the renown. How is that any different?

    It's also no different from PvE where people drag alts around and accumulate huge amounts of trash to sell or crafting junk, not to mention TP from slayer deeds. And now that people can choose to send things that are store-bought to other players (at a cost), it provides a way to get things earned on other accounts to the main account.

    I dunno. I just think that if someone wants to drag some useless toons around, let em go for it. It doesn't interfere with my playstyle So long as they don't use 3rd party software to gain an unfair advantage on the battlefield and so long as they don't rank farm (as Turbine defined it, where one side doesn't fight back).
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  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    People go afk in GV all the time for one reason or another and most people don't just kick them out of the fraid for it.

    If the main player of that troupe of boxers is good enough to survive on his own then he deserves the renown. It's no different if I, for example, brought out a friend who was completely useless in PvMP. In fact, I felt very much like dead weight on my lvl-scaled minstrel a few months ago. At such an extremely low level I contributed absolutely nothing to the fight and was still earning the renown. How is that any different?

    It's also no different from PvE where people drag alts around and accumulate huge amounts of trash to sell or crafting junk, not to mention TP from slayer deeds. And now that people can choose to send things that are store-bought to other players (at a cost), it provides a way to get things earned on other accounts to the main account.

    I dunno. I just think that if someone wants to drag some useless toons around, let em go for it. It doesn't interfere with my playstyle So long as they don't use 3rd party software to gain an unfair advantage on the battlefield and so long as they don't rank farm (as Turbine defined it, where one side doesn't fight back).
    That's the problem though, they ARE using it to gain an unfair advantage on the battlefield. If someone wants to split their renown by controlling one player, and towing five, I doubt ANYONE would have an issue with it because then it would be 6 kills for the price of one. The boxers in the ettenmoors aren't doing that, they are actively controlling 6 toons at one time. Whether it be a spider, defiler etc. One button, 6 actions performed. And ultimately you are correct, the issue is figuring out who is using third party software because that is where the issue lies. Easiest way would be to find a way to make it work in the moors and leave everything else alone. Or make it so one computer can't be logged in to multiple clients as was the case before. As someone earlier said, its almost like they decided boxing is a cash cow so by making it easier for people to do, they get more money.
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  16. #91
    here is their real problem, the freeps didn't mind my spider box when they were killing me over and over at grams. but now that the brandywhine freep leaders have all bailed on them to 1v1 the boxer is suddenly a problem, furthermore half the people who have replied to this thread are only butt hurt they died in the moors or because their freep leader has left them. the freeps have no problem killing my spiders with a solid group of 3. I pay for my accounts ill play them how I choose to play them regardless of what you conciter sportsmanlike. this isn't about boxing in the moors this is a pissing contest among people who have left/booted from kins/tribes bullying of other players because you don't agree with their game play and a forum QQ because you died in a pvp zone..turbine along with EVERY other mmorpg has said it isn't agains the tos to box. and to say its ok to box pve but not pvp is stupid. It isn't ok to pick and choose what you think is ok and what you think isn't when they both use the same programs and commands. anyone interested in learning to box pst to me and ill do my best to assist you.
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  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by goober2 View Post
    the freeps have no problem killing my spiders with a solid group of 3.
    Not your "spiders", you mean "you". Right? Kind of a misnomer, isn't it? I mean, if "your spiders" kill that group of 3, are you going to say they (the spiders) did it, or are you going to say that you did it?

    And if you did it, how come its reasonable that it takes, by your own admission, 3 players to kill you?
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by goober2 View Post
    here is their real problem, the freeps didn't mind my spider box when they were killing me over and over at grams. but now that the brandywhine freep leaders have all bailed on them to 1v1 the boxer is suddenly a problem, furthermore half the people who have replied to this thread are only butt hurt they died in the moors or because their freep leader has left them. the freeps have no problem killing my spiders with a solid group of 3. I pay for my accounts ill play them how I choose to play them regardless of what you conciter sportsmanlike. this isn't about boxing in the moors this is a pissing contest among people who have left/booted from kins/tribes bullying of other players because you don't agree with their game play and a forum QQ because you died in a pvp zone..turbine along with EVERY other mmorpg has said it isn't agains the tos to box. and to say its ok to box pve but not pvp is stupid. It isn't ok to pick and choose what you think is ok and what you think isn't when they both use the same programs and commands. anyone interested in learning to box pst to me and ill do my best to assist you.
    While some people probably hate you because they died i'm sure there are other reasons too why they dislike you. Mine would be the huge lag you cause when you jump in a GvG or RvR wich makes the game unplayable for both sides.
    That being said everything you mentioned in your post about other people is partially a reflection of yourself. You box not because it's easy points but because you know it pisses people off simply because they annoy you. You have been booted from several kins/tribes yourself because of your behaviour ( and i don't mean boxing with this). In the end boxing spiders/lms/burgs and whatev else you have is nothing more than just pure trolling for you simply because you crave for attention and enjoy the rage of others. I can say dozens of examples where i can prove this but i'm sure you get the point.

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ames View Post
    That's the problem though, they ARE using it to gain an unfair advantage on the battlefield. If someone wants to split their renown by controlling one player, and towing five, I doubt ANYONE would have an issue with it because then it would be 6 kills for the price of one. The boxers in the ettenmoors aren't doing that, they are actively controlling 6 toons at one time. Whether it be a spider, defiler etc. One button, 6 actions performed. And ultimately you are correct, the issue is figuring out who is using third party software because that is where the issue lies. Easiest way would be to find a way to make it work in the moors and leave everything else alone. Or make it so one computer can't be logged in to multiple clients as was the case before. As someone earlier said, its almost like they decided boxing is a cash cow so by making it easier for people to do, they get more money.
    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I agree -- I personally don't have any problem with someone dragging around bantha fodder. More for me to kill (though that would make me wonder what Turbine would think of that -- they say multiboxing is fine in the Moors, but if the boxers have their alts just on follow and they aren't actually fighting back, does that equal some form of rank farming?? Am I supposed to just pretend the alts-on-follow don't exist?).

    It's where the alts are actively being controlled all at once, and I think that simply has to be due to 3rd party software. Which is a violation in general (not just in the Moors) and should be stopped.
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  20. #95
    I'm glad this is an official petition and not one of those bogus ones that pops up from time to time.

  21. #96
    To play devil's advocate, you don't need 3rd party software to multi-box since the client allows multiple instances. You can fire up a bunch of windowed clients, put the main toon on follow from each secondary toon, and have each secondary toon select the main toon which will forward any attacks to the main toon's target. When the main toon selects a target, all the person would have to do is click on the skills in each individual instance. I'd imagine that could could be done pretty rapidly with practice. Obviously nowhere near as efficient as using a 3rd party tool built specifically for multi-boxing, but very possible.

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by goober2 View Post
    here is their real problem, the freeps didn't mind my spider box when they were killing me over and over at grams. but now that the brandywhine freep leaders have all bailed on them to 1v1 the boxer is suddenly a problem, furthermore half the people who have replied to this thread are only butt hurt they died in the moors or because their freep leader has left them. the freeps have no problem killing my spiders with a solid group of 3. I pay for my accounts ill play them how I choose to play them regardless of what you conciter sportsmanlike. this isn't about boxing in the moors this is a pissing contest among people who have left/booted from kins/tribes bullying of other players because you don't agree with their game play and a forum QQ because you died in a pvp zone..turbine along with EVERY other mmorpg has said it isn't agains the tos to box. and to say its ok to box pve but not pvp is stupid. It isn't ok to pick and choose what you think is ok and what you think isn't when they both use the same programs and commands. anyone interested in learning to box pst to me and ill do my best to assist you.
    why'll boxing isnt against the rules and yes you can play how you want for now that doesnt mean that most people dont disagreeing with you , you just see it as youre right.

    Secondly killing you or being killed by you wouldnt change my mind on boxing period, i think it shouldnt be allowed and i honestly believe most people do it to troll and because they lack the skills to use only one toon.


    Id really love if youd come box on M i love being feed renown.
    Last edited by LEGENDofALL; Aug 18 2014 at 04:11 PM.

  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldeld View Post
    To play devil's advocate, you don't need 3rd party software to multi-box since the client allows multiple instances. You can fire up a bunch of windowed clients, put the main toon on follow from each secondary toon, and have each secondary toon select the main toon which will forward any attacks to the main toon's target. When the main toon selects a target, all the person would have to do is click on the skills in each individual instance. I'd imagine that could could be done pretty rapidly with practice. Obviously nowhere near as efficient as using a 3rd party tool built specifically for multi-boxing, but very possible.
    Certainly possible, but horribly inefficient! Your main toon could not use their second skill until five other toons had executed their first skill on a 6-boxer. Trying to box that way, you have multi-boxed toons following you around with their attack frequencies greatly diminished...... execute a skill, and it's probably at least three seconds before that same toon executes a skill again. Given similar AD and skill induction times, 1 player with their skills key-bound is going to Easily surpass the number of skills you're able to execute on six toons hoping from one screen to another trying to click skills.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    Certainly possible, but horribly inefficient! Your main toon could not use their second skill until five other toons had executed their first skill on a 6-boxer. Trying to box that way, you have multi-boxed toons following you around with their attack frequencies greatly diminished...... execute a skill, and it's probably at least three seconds before that same toon executes a skill again. Given similar AD and skill induction times, 1 player with their skills key-bound is going to Easily surpass the number of skills you're able to execute on six toons hoping from one screen to another trying to click skills.
    Exactly. It'd still be doable, but it'd be such a PITA that people wouldn't bother with it.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  25. #100
    I'm thinking it would actually be pretty easy to ID boxers using third-party software. Just submit a combat log with a time stamp showing how you keep getting hit with six of the same skills at the same time. I'll post one next time I run across our spider boxer.

 

 
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