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  1. #1

    Northcotton Farm Teir 2 - This has to be bugged.

    We tried Northcotton Farm today on Tier 2 to get the challenge deed, a 3-man instance set at level 65. We were a Guard(65), Mini(67), Mini(68)

    After fighting Legbarthil with 220k HP and managing to kill it we came to Thadúr the Ravager with 444k HP.

    Upon stepping up to him on the first three tries he hit me for this right off the bat:



    I'm not a 95 guard, but I have my 65 guard fitted out pretty well, this instance was set to 65 after all.
    That's the Epic skirimish set below, with lots of other high teir goodies for a level 65 to run in. I have just under 7k HP unbuffed.



    But that doesn't matter becuase his special hits were like this...



    In fact it didn't seem to matter what stats we had because our squishy minstrel was taking the exact same numbers as I was in my full guard gear, tome, food and store buffs...



    Should a 12k hit from a 444k HP boss really be in a level 65, 3-man instance?

    Any which way its not possible to do this instance on Teir 2, not when everyone but a tank is dead in one hit, and a tank is dead in two.

  2. #2
    There is a corruption that must be removed but I tested with my lvl 100 Champ and, although I have low Tact. Mit. (for acid), damage are a lot too big for a T2 65.
    They are higher than in a lvl 100 T2 (and maybe T3) skraid (12-mans) !
    (for this boss, trash mobs and first boss seem ok)
    Last edited by Castorix; Jul 20 2014 at 08:00 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Tallship View Post
    We tried Northcotton Farm today on Tier 2 to get the challenge deed, a 3-man instance set at level 65. We were a Guard(65), Mini(67), Mini(68)

    After fighting Legbarthil with 220k HP and managing to kill it we came to Thadúr the Ravager with 444k HP.

    Upon stepping up to him on the first three tries he hit me for this right off the bat:



    I'm not a 95 guard, but I have my 65 guard fitted out pretty well, this instance was set to 65 after all.
    That's the Epic skirimish set below, with lots of other high teir goodies for a level 65 to run in. I have just under 7k HP unbuffed.



    But that doesn't matter becuase his special hits were like this...



    In fact it didn't seem to matter what stats we had because our squishy minstrel was taking the exact same numbers as I was in my full guard gear, tome, food and store buffs...



    Should a 12k hit from a 444k HP boss really be in a level 65, 3-man instance?

    Any which way its not possible to do this instance on Teir 2, not when everyone but a tank is dead in one hit, and a tank is dead in two.
    While the instance is doable and OK on lvl 100. These are too big hits for lvl 65 instance probably.
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  4. #4
    I've been running some level 100 T2 runs with some kinmates lately, and while we have been enjoying the increased difficulty as a whole (actually having to think, use tactics, recover from mistakes, etc.), there are some spots where I think the increased T2 difficulty may have gone too far. We struggled mightily in Stoneheight, but managed to get it done.

    For level 100 T2 material, we had assumed it was because it was designed for people with full essence gear, which we did not yet have. So we had determined to gear up a bit better and then try again another day. But if things are wonkytown for certain bosses at other levels (level 65, level 75) then something may be a bit skewed, especially when the bosses get critical or devastating hits that mean a wipe for the entire party. To my knowledge, those levels can't get essence gear, so that can't be it!

    In my experience so far, trash mobs are in a good difficulty spot. I like having to think and strategize, even before we get to the boss.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozalinde View Post
    I've been running some level 100 T2 runs with some kinmates lately, and while we have been enjoying the increased difficulty as a whole (actually having to think, use tactics, recover from mistakes, etc.), there are some spots where I think the increased T2 difficulty may have gone too far. We struggled mightily in Stoneheight, but managed to get it done.

    For level 100 T2 material, we had assumed it was because it was designed for people with full essence gear, which we did not yet have. So we had determined to gear up a bit better and then try again another day. But if things are wonkytown for certain bosses at other levels (level 65, level 75) then something may be a bit skewed, especially when the bosses get critical or devastating hits that mean a wipe for the entire party. To my knowledge, those levels can't get essence gear, so that can't be it!

    In my experience so far, trash mobs are in a good difficulty spot. I like having to think and strategize, even before we get to the boss.
    They didn't fix scaling, just put a bland buff to the tier 2 modifier. So that's of course gonna make things impossible at lower levels. For a proper solution, scaling has to be fixed, but otherwise it's good that there is at least a challenge at cap now, and that for lower levels you have to run t1 now (although that might be too easy...).
    Last edited by Vulcwen; Jul 20 2014 at 08:38 PM.
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  6. #6
    I'm more inclined to say this particular boss, and possibly the one after him as it is him again, is bugged.

    When we did the run in the OP, the boss before this one was extremely tough and we had to really use our heads to get him down. It took many tries, and we are not exactly newbies or poorly geared. It was a 20-30 minute fight and if anyone made a single error, we died. Now, that boss I would say was the result of poorly implemented scaling.

    However this particular boss, Thadúr the Ravager, was just like walking in against something made for level 100, but living in a lvl 65 dungeon.
    Those critical hits of 5k+ were his regular melee swings, and would come just about every time he swung. Armor and stats didn't seem to matter, nothing was mitigated as everyone in the party took exactly the same damage numbers, both tank and clothies. The only way I survived more than a few seconds was BPE, but once any of his attacks landed, it was all over.

  7. #7
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    It seems to be tactical damage bug all over again. I did some raid in T2C (Barad guldur) and that was quite horrible. I don't mind the difficulties, but I fear T2 3 mans are much over the top. Turbine as to remember we don't have the same characters that we had several years ago. A cappie can't have Shield of the dunedain while being traited Heal, and so on. Simplier character need simplier T2. Or they just have to add a T3, because the gap between T1 and T2 are just... laughable.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallship View Post
    We tried Northcotton Farm today on Tier 2 to get the challenge deed, a 3-man instance set at level 65. We were a Guard(65), Mini(67), Mini(68)
    Side note, I don't believe challenges trigger in any scaled instance if you're not at the level cap. Or has this changed?

  9. #9

    I'm with Gardhik.

    Based on testing in IP (possible on T2HM but slooooow) and Bells of Dale (insanely hard) I'd say that it's a combination of the tactical damage bug and errors in scaling from T1 to T2.

    Apart from anything else, it's boring to plink away at Helf for 777,000 morale waiting for the little dorfs to turn up just so you have something to do. It's equally boring to keep wiping due to random aggro 1-shots (for example, minstrel hit for 18k shadow, hunter for 17k, warden tank with 60% crit def for 14k x 2) in Bells of Dale by troll and end boss.
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  10. #10
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    It is not bugged, NCF is balanced again.

    You are tanking in DPS gear, with about a 20% tact mit rating.

    Of Course Ivar is going to one-shot you on tier 2 at level 65, he does tactical damage.

    If you had 60+% tact mit with 7,000 morale like you're supposed to have, that's only a 2,000 damage hit, not a 5,500 damage hit.

    It's not bugged, you're just not geared correctly.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    It is not bugged, NCF is balanced again.

    You are tanking in DPS gear, with about a 20% tact mit rating.

    Of Course Ivar is going to one-shot you on tier 2 at level 65, he does tactical damage.

    If you had 60+% tact mit with 7,000 morale like you're supposed to have, that's only a 2,000 damage hit, not a 5,500 damage hit.

    It's not bugged, you're just not geared correctly.
    But on my test (lvl 100 Champ with 41.7% Tact. Mit. atm) , I received some 8K hits at 65 !
    Last edited by Castorix; Jul 23 2014 at 06:24 PM.

  12. #12
    Dumb question here - you do know that there are phases where he makes distributed dmg? And that only the tank should face him, healer and dd should stay near, but in his back?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucataru View Post
    Dumb question here - you do know that there are phases where he makes distributed dmg? And that only the tank should face him, healer and dd should stay near, but in his back?
    exactly, that 12k is a distributed hit, you all need to be near him so it's only ~4k each player.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    exactly, that 12k is a distributed hit, you all need to be near him so it's only ~4k each player.
    Only 4k each player. Hm. 4k would one-shot most squishies at that level.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Only 4k each player. Hm. 4k would one-shot most squishies at that level.
    yes it would, because they're not wearing instance gear, they're wearing quest gear.

    If they go get lvl 65 instance gear and rank 8+ virtues (appropriate mix of morale/physical mit/ tact mit), they'll have no morale trouble, easily 5,000 morale as a squishy at 65 if you use your head.

    It was the same way during RoI, anyone in quest gear would get destroyed, even in ToO tier 1. As soon as they got the teal crafted, Theodred riders rep, or draigoch set, they could start running ToO tier 1.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Only 4k each player. Hm. 4k would one-shot most squishies at that level.
    Hmmm at level 65 cap I had 6k+ morale easily and that was with stat caps. Some of the gear that drops now is extremely better than before. Also mechanics play into this fight. He has a distributed attack where everyone needs to group up, he has a frontal attack that you simply run through him, others should be on his backside, remove the corruption and don't stand in the green cloud. He tells you everything he is gonna do.

    Plus the guards tact mit is extremely low in his character panel.

  17. #17
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    As others have pointed out, not a bug. Whenever you see a ridiculous amount of damage in Lotro, ask yourself why. There's a thing called Fundamental Attribution Error when humans attribute the cause of something to an erroneous thing.

    One bit of that damage is labeled, distributed. That answers that. The group needs to be all standing on top of each other then. Literally.

    But a lot of that damage is tactical damage. It seems you have a lot of might and armour, but very little Fate or Will or some other source of tactical mitigation.

    Depending on how the minstrels are traited, they may offer a nice tactical mitigation debuff in an Anthem that could help.

    A hope token for more morale might help. Scrolls for more mitigations would help. The minstrel fellowship morale bubbles will help (which we didn't have back when 65 was cap doing those runs). Get crafting those consumables if you weren't using them already.

    It's T2. It's not supposed to be easy. It's supposed to be a fun challenge you have to grow in to. Those instances, the entire cluster were designed to be more challenging than other easier instances too. They were end game content for a player base that was very bored with Mirkwood instances they'd had for way too long and top of the line raid gear.

    If you are "trying" it, then you expect to not complete it. You expect to learn from the experience and grow. Once you have grown and progressed, THEN you go back and test yourself on it.

    Case in point, tonight we hopped in to T2 Wargpens to see how it would go. We knew three trash pulls into it that we weren't ready for it. We exited the instance and ran Stoneheight instead. It was rather challenging, which was a TON of fun.
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  18. #18
    I don't know about this specific instance but I do know that some under level cap tier 2 and 3 skirmishes are bugged. I tried Thievery and mischief solo version at level 57 with level 57 champion with all the best crafted gear I could get and fairly decent virtues slotted. I could not even get in the gate to Bree as I would die within a couple of seconds. Granted some of these needed to be made harder but that's insane. Another group of us with a runekeeper, warden, and champion all level 36 all in crafted gear tried it at that level 3man tier 3. Died constantly untill we made it too the boss at the end. He killed the entire group plus soldiers in less than 5 seconds. That cannot possibly be intended. There are some scaling bugs somewhere here.

  19. #19
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    skirmishes were originally built where tier 2 requires outstanding heals in group skirms, and tier 3 requires crowd control, aka, sages, LMs, burglars, debuffs, etc... to achieve victory.

    people aren't used to these restraints at the moment, but they will as they learn their class.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    It is not bugged, NCF is balanced again.

    You are tanking in DPS gear, with about a 20% tact mit rating.

    Of Course Ivar is going to one-shot you on tier 2 at level 65, he does tactical damage.

    If you had 60+% tact mit with 7,000 morale like you're supposed to have, that's only a 2,000 damage hit, not a 5,500 damage hit.

    It's not bugged, you're just not geared correctly.
    Sorry to say this Leixy, but everything you are saying looks like trolling. You are posting lots of assumptions, telling everyone how wrong they are, how much they suck at the game compared to your assumptions, and adding nothing from actual tests in the current game state being discussed.

    In the OP hunt, after wiping constantly from one shot hits we naturally tried to counter the tactical damage and buffed the tank more than double his original Tact Mitigation by switching around virtues and using every buff we could find. The hits were exactly the same.
    As I said above, it was almost as though he was ignoring defense stats. And yes we were dodging his special attacks, again I'll remind you that these were his regular melee hits.

    You need to go in and test this yourself and then post. Right now you are talking about what you believe to be correct, while others in the discussion have gone and actually tested it in game, even with just an over level 100, and they are all saying something's wrong.

    So go and test it first and then come back with what you found. If you don't have the means I will lend you a hand. My tank is halted at level 65, his name is Klobster. Hit me up in game and we'll gear him just like you suggest and put it to the test.
    But don't come into a discussion with nothing but assumptions, and then proceed to tell everyone they don't know what they are doing.

    Unless of course you are a troll in which case... post away.
    Last edited by Tallship; Jul 25 2014 at 11:17 AM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallship View Post
    Unless of course you are a troll in which case... post away.


    my sig contains all my character levels, so you would know that I don't have a lvl 65 character, mostly because 100% of group lvl 65 instance content has been scaled to lvl 100 and there's better rewards for doing it at lvl 100.
    LvL 100s: Beorning, Burglar, Captain, Champ, Guardian, Hunter, Lore-Master, Minstrel, Rune-Keeper
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post


    my sig contains all my character levels, so you would know that I don't have a lvl 65 character, mostly because 100% of group lvl 65 instance content has been scaled to lvl 100 and there's better rewards for doing it at lvl 100.
    Well you do have a 60 warden, which could make an excellent tank.

    But as I said, if you have no intention of testing it in game, please do not post like a troll. Especially in threads were people are trying to get things corrected.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallship View Post
    ...but everything you are saying looks like trolling.
    There's no benefit to being rude to folks trying to help and provide insights (right or wrong), even if you don't want to believe it.

    In the OP hunt, after wiping constantly from one shot hits we naturally tried to counter the tactical damage and buffed the tank more than double his original Tact Mitigation by switching around virtues and using every buff we could find. The hits were exactly the same.
    This tells you there's a different method of avoiding the damage by design.

    Turbine provides different game mechanics. Sometimes you have to move (out of puddles for example), sometimes you have to not move (Great Barrows Maze acid for example), sometimes you have to gather up, sometimes you have to spread out.

    When you find damage is a fixed amount greater than possible morale, that means there's a way of avoiding it. As already said in multiple previous replies by folks, the damage labeled "distributed" is divided between the people to a tolerable amount if they gather up. It'll be 3x larger if not. Your choice.

    One technique is to look at your combat chat log to see when the damage happened (I see your timestamps aren't turned on, enable them). Then look at your Say channel chat to see what the MOB declared when it happened. When he says something is coming, respond appropriately. Alternatively, simply read the mechanics online from others who have done the work for you: https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/NCF...Ar_the_Ravager

    Being obstinate in your response, whether here in the forum, or in the game while playing, will not increase your pleasure, or your knowledge I'm afraid.

    PS: One of the problems when everything was made ridiculously easy is lots of folks were able to play completely ignoring instance mechanics and get through, never learning/experiencing what ramifications there might be. Now ramifications are back, but all the lower level instances that used to introduce the techniques have already been passed without that wisdom having been gained.
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    yes it would, because they're not wearing instance gear, they're wearing quest gear.

    If they go get lvl 65 instance gear and rank 8+ virtues (appropriate mix of morale/physical mit/ tact mit), they'll have no morale trouble, easily 5,000 morale as a squishy at 65 if you use your head.

    It was the same way during RoI, anyone in quest gear would get destroyed, even in ToO tier 1. As soon as they got the teal crafted, Theodred riders rep, or draigoch set, they could start running ToO tier 1.
    While that makes sense, I feel that Turbine shouldn't scale un-level cap instance so high, because players naturally aren't going to get level 65 instance gear when the level cap is 100. Of course, that probably just complicates things for turbine.
    Plus the guards tact mit is extremely low in his character panel.
    Just noticed that, thanks.
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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    While that makes sense, I feel that Turbine shouldn't scale un-level cap instance so high, because players naturally aren't going to get level 65 instance gear when the level cap is 100. Of course, that probably just complicates things for turbine.

    Just noticed that, thanks.
    Well I think it should be. If you want to do T2, you need to put effort into it, imo.
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