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  1. #1
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    Ridiculous Scaling of raids

    So a friend and I decided to test out BFE t2c. He, a warden, went in first and got 1 hit. I went in (a minstrel) and got hit for; Laugshat scored a critical hit with Melee High on Lothogon for 74,065 Common damage to Morale.

    This is ridiculous, to make it worse, the trolls have 3.4m morale each.

    Edit: tested Flight t2c, the boss has 6.1m morale and hits 11k almost every hit.

  2. #2
    Now we're talking.

    sounds like a challenge
    Borgorid of Arkenstone - Leithiani Officer
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  3. #3
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    you tried to 2 man a raid? on challenge mode? WAI surely that you should fail....

    Do you mean smaug? flight has no boss.
    Elendilmir - 95 Hunter Berenthalion - 80ish Burg Berendybuck - baby warden Berenion.

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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarian_Grace View Post
    you tried to 2 man a raid? on challenge mode? WAI surely that you should fail....

    Do you mean smaug? flight has no boss.
    so 12man change the fact the mob is one-shotting you with 74k? useless comment

  5. #5
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    Yes I meant Smaug sorry, and even with a 12 man raid, the tank would get ONE SHOT! He hits a constant 20k+

  6. #6
    We also tested BG, the 2 armor sets at the beginning have almost 1mil a piece and hit for a constant 7-13k damage. The adds in Smaug are 200k elites. Yes stuff was faceroll before, but now its basically impossible to run any scaled raid at t2c level. I'm sure a lot of the 6 mans are as well.
    Windfola:
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan583 View Post
    We also tested BG, the 2 armor sets at the beginning have almost 1mil a piece and hit for a constant 7-13k damage. The adds in Smaug are 200k elites. Yes stuff was faceroll before, but now its basically impossible to run any scaled raid at t2c level. I'm sure a lot of the 6 mans are as well.
    I could see raids being over the top but 6 mans are perfect. All it takes is some cc and debuff and you got yourself a smooth ride,


    But the question stands....how will essences effect our characters? If we put morale into every slot for every armor piece, were sitting at over 50k morale. Rks are insane healers. What happens when you bump their tact mastery to 60 or 70 k? The essence armor is a huge question mark for me and I say thank god we have reasons to run dol hytbold to gear ourselves up. I just wish these classic raids dropped better loot.


    Please, no nerf yet.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I could see raids being over the top but 6 mans are perfect. All it takes is some cc and debuff and you got yourself a smooth ride,


    But the question stands....how will essences effect our characters? If we put morale into every slot for every armor piece, were sitting at over 50k morale. Rks are insane healers. What happens when you bump their tact mastery to 60 or 70 k? The essence armor is a huge question mark for me and I say thank god we have reasons to run dol hytbold to gear ourselves up. I just wish these classic raids dropped better loot.


    Please, no nerf yet.
    If I stacked every morale essence, I might have over 50k morale, but I would have virtually no mitigation and get hit for constant 20k's, even an RK with 70k can't heal through that. Its overtuned, and kind of broken at this point.
    Windfola:
    Bretela LVL 100 Warden Gwaithol LVL 100 Hunter Brilliance LVL 86+ LM
    Mac User, Raider

  9. #9
    Nope, you will not bring faceroll back to the game, if anything difficulty needs to be increased even more. I will not have another year of faceroll and dead servers

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan583 View Post
    We also tested BG, the 2 armor sets at the beginning have almost 1mil a piece and hit for a constant 7-13k damage. The adds in Smaug are 200k elites. Yes stuff was faceroll before, but now its basically impossible to run any scaled raid at t2c level. I'm sure a lot of the 6 mans are as well.
    Were you on level? (level 100) How's your gear? Are you a tank class? or a light tactical?

    Not saying it's right, but, T2c's were supposed to be damn hard. Everyone's been able to sleepwalk through T2c's since RoR. and HD was even worse.

    BG's T2c used to be crazy hard.

    However, back then there was the best gear in the game available for a lucky few in the raid.

    Don't know if that's the case now.
    Borgorid of Arkenstone - Leithiani Officer
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  11. #11
    I'm a level 100 warden, using mostly 95 teal tanking gear. I've got 24k morale and 43% physical mit and capped BPE. I'm expecting to be around 30k morale with capped mits and a much higher incoming healing rating then I do now. I feel like they just took the 95 stuff and multiplied everything by 3. While this works in 3 mans and some 6 mans, its not a one size fits all thing. Personally I think they should punish us more for mistakes, by making the mechanics of the instance the most important part. Say the first boss of SG, if you don't run away from the group, you wipe, if you don't position the boss properly, the frontal AoE is going to destroy your squishies. Scaling certain things damage up would take a little longer, but provide us with a much better experience.

    I don't want the face-roll of the past, but I also don't want stuff to be impossible simply because of numbers. I want hard content mechanically, so that when I fail, I know exactly what I didn't do correctly.
    Windfola:
    Bretela LVL 100 Warden Gwaithol LVL 100 Hunter Brilliance LVL 86+ LM
    Mac User, Raider

  12. #12
    Thats why its called challenge mode
    74k on a Minstrel? Nice one Thats why Minstrels are not Tanks^^

    Well done Turbine! Keep up the good work on making the game hard again! =)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    Thats why its called challenge mode
    74k on a Minstrel? Nice one Thats why Minstrels are not Tanks^^

    Well done Turbine! Keep up the good work on making the game hard again! =)
    Except I got hit by a 40k hit that was mitagated by 43%, this means that if a guard got hit by the same hit with 70% mits, it would have hit him for 20k. Now this hit was a melee mid, and it didn't crit or dev. A crit of this would one shot a fully geared guard, a Dev of this would definitely one shot a fully geared guard, and any healer is not going to be able to keep up with healing someone for constant 20-40k hits.
    Windfola:
    Bretela LVL 100 Warden Gwaithol LVL 100 Hunter Brilliance LVL 86+ LM
    Mac User, Raider

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan583 View Post
    Except I got hit by a 40k hit that was mitagated by 43%, this means that if a guard got hit by the same hit with 70% mits, it would have hit him for 20k. Now this hit was a melee mid, and it didn't crit or dev. A crit of this would one shot a fully geared guard, a Dev of this would definitely one shot a fully geared guard, and any healer is not going to be able to keep up with healing someone for constant 20-40k hits.
    Then bring some freinds:
    - Yellow Captain
    - Yellow LM
    - Yellow Burg
    - Tome of Defence
    - etc...

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisplTru View Post
    Then bring some freinds:
    - Yellow Captain
    - Yellow LM
    - Yellow Burg
    - Tome of Defence
    - etc...
    Im not sure but I don't think its supposed to be how it is. t2 6mans trash mobs are hitting the tank for 10k a pop, you take that with 4 guldur guards in SG......something seems to be broken. A challenge is one things, not being able to survive the amount of hits is another.
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  16. #16
    my kin did BG last night and it went fine. we didnt finish LT, but not because of the rid. we wiped because of people being stupid. (with some underleveled people too)

    will wait before i comment on OD/erebor, havent run those yet, but BG is fine..

    im actually VERY happy that every raid isnt faceroll now. thank you turbine

    EDIT: lso...BFE the trolls will obviously hit very hrd if kept together. you knw they get buffed from this, right?

    sorry for spelling, broken keybord..
    Last edited by 0987654321; Jul 16 2014 at 07:18 PM.
    Lugbur, R11 Reaver ./. Guthfred, R9 Captain ./. Guthblade, R9 Chamption ./. Muzluck, R9 Warg + Various other toons of different rank and class.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan583 View Post
    We also tested BG, the 2 armor sets at the beginning have almost 1mil a piece and hit for a constant 7-13k damage. The adds in Smaug are 200k elites. Yes stuff was faceroll before, but now its basically impossible to run any scaled raid at t2c level. I'm sure a lot of the 6 mans are as well.

    No one is fully geared yet, and honestly its better to have a challenge people will actually have to learn to pay attention to the mechanics now. We did BG and we did fine with our under geared under leveled peeps up too LT, but we only did fine when we payed attention to the mechanics and ran the raid the way it was meant to be.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0987654321 View Post
    my kin did BG last night and it went fine. we didnt finish LT, but not because of the rid. we wiped because of people being stupid.

    will wait before i comment on OD/erebor, s havnt run those yet, but BG is fine..
    ^this

    Turbine finally did a good job on the difficulty of instances. We did BG and it was quite difficult.We had to watch our positioning, use cds at the right time and use debuffs/buffs to our max advantage. Isn't this how a t2c raid is supposed to be? The only reason we didn't get LT was stupidity and a horrible raid make up ( some people weren't even 100 and no one had proper 100 gear).

    As for big hits how can you test the dps of mobs without any forms of debuffs or other classes with you?

    The age of easymode facerolling is over, time to play your class at it's best again.
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  19. #19
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    Wow. This is sounding like extremely good news. A friend of mine was doing BG (might even have been same group) and he was mentioning how it's no longer extremely faceroll. Makes me very, very happy. I am always up for a good ol' Barad Guldur raid.

    It'll only get easier as everyone gears up with First Agers, level 100 Derpy Battle jewelery and Essenced out gear. But hey, that gives us all something to works towards. I just wish it was newer content we were gearing up for.
    Chromite/Grumbletocks/Grumbletunes/Schrade on Landroval, Chromite on Arkenstone, Appendage on Brandywine

  20. #20
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    For OP, BfE has some interesting fight mechanics, especially in t2c.. You must not forget that the trolls must be separated as they buff themselves (I don't remember how much, should be 100%), also there is distributed damage if I'm correct. So what you think is a ridiculous scaling, to me is working as expected, especially for trying a content intended for a group of 12 players while you're only 2 and playing a light armour.

    Turbine did a great job in increasing the difficulty, players will have again to position well, debuff, crowd-control boss/ennemies, manage threat and sorry for those who are complaining ... I don't want Turbine nerf the existing raid/instance especially as there is no new raids planned. The only regret is that all instances should have t2 ; I wish I could play again Glinghant with good challenge on Nengon fight.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzaraen View Post
    So a friend and I decided to test out BFE t2c. He, a warden, went in first and got 1 hit. I went in (a minstrel) and got hit for; Laugshat scored a critical hit with Melee High on Lothogon for 74,065 Common damage to Morale.

    This is ridiculous, to make it worse, the trolls have 3.4m morale each.

    Edit: tested Flight t2c, the boss has 6.1m morale and hits 11k almost every hit.
    What is ridiculous is attempting to duo/solo a T2CM raid with major distributed damage as it's mechanic and one where the NPCs buff each other if they are allowed too close together-and then complaining your light armour tactical class can't tank it solo.

    As for the warden-everytime we ran this in the olden days when it was originally released at cap they needed LMs debuffs and minstrel heals and at the start.

    Even the most excellent raid kins -with 2 healers- could only 5 man this before update 14. And even that should not be possible. I am glad it is back to something like how it used to be. ./cheer
    Last edited by Calta; Jul 16 2014 at 11:13 PM.

    And the minstrel sang to them……”and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.”

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    What is ridiculous is attempting to duo/solo a T2CM raid with major distributed damage as it's mechanic and one where the NPCs buff each other if they are allowed too close together-and then complaining your light armour tactical class can't tank it solo.
    Yes, I tested it on BR also but just to see the difference U13.1 vs U14 (like BG, even in T1, it is normal that it cannot be soloed because of corruptions...)
    But as I say in another thread, some people said they had 6-manned OD T2C on BR, so it seems still a lot easier than in U9 with well/top geared people (except maybe for Erebor raids (which did not exist in U9))

    And I think they should change the loot tables for T2 instances (big difference now with T1 but same boring loots with same stats T1/T2 and same loots in T1 3-6 mans and in T2 raids)
    Last edited by Castorix; Jul 17 2014 at 12:35 AM.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    What is ridiculous is attempting to duo/solo a T2CM raid with major distributed damage as it's mechanic and one where the NPCs buff each other if they are allowed too close together-and then complaining your light armour tactical class can't tank it solo.

    As for the warden-everytime we ran this in the olden days when it was originally released at cap they needed LMs debuffs and minstrel heals and at the start.

    Even the most excellent raid kins -with 2 healers- could only 5 man this before update 14. And even that should not be possible. I am glad it is back to something like how it used to be. ./cheer
    I've tested many other things today, lets take for example Warg Pens t2c. The challenge is all about letting the wargs eat the meat, and then then come back and hit twice as hard and your supposed to kill them ASAP, makes sense, except before the wargs eat the meat, their hitting for around 4k DPS each, theres 3 of them, so thats 12k dps. I've never seen a healer that can parse 6k HPS, let alone 12k. We were surviving them barely, with a few stuns etc, to keep to the damage down, 1 is dead, the other is about half, and third runs for the meat. The warg eats the meat, sprints back and "The Intimidating Guldur Warg scored a hit with a massive melee attack on Bretela for 23,088 Shadow damage to Morale." I'm dead, we could probably beat this, if we stunned the warg on the way back and nuked it, but let me remind you, this is the second pull of the instance, they're are bigger groups ahead, and this is a 3man, no distributed damage, nothing that we are missing here, the result is the same.

    I've been asking for harder content for a very long time, 85 was easy, and 95 was just a joke when it came to difficulty, but this is on a whole different level. I'm sure people are going to be able the content, with both a burg and an LM debuffing things constantly, but heres another example:

    Fires of Smaug, a completely faceroll raid when it came out with U10 and the erebor cluster. We went into it today, Belegnor(the big fire grim in the middle that is tanked by a hunter) has 6.1 million morale, and hits consistently for 11k fire damage. I have 30% tactical mits, so if I got them mixed out he'd only be hitting consistent 7k's, and with a LM keeping frost lore up, it would probably be down to 5K or so. Thats a little more reasonable I guess. But there are a few more mechanics to deal with here, first off lets talk about DPS. Since the Grim has 6.1M morale and 5% of it needs to be taken away every 40 seconds or so, the hunter will need to do 305K in 40 seconds, which would 7.6K DPS. This is probably doable at this point, but not easily maintainable over a 15-20Min period, and when they have to burn through the healing after the Firetender, they'll probably be needing to push past the 10K mark which could probably be done by 2 hunters. Final hurdle here, is the adds. Their are 2 types, the engineers which are now 200k elites, and the little ones which should be around 50k each. We couldn't check how hard they hit because we died too quickly, but I'm assuming that, like everything else, they hit like trucks. So, the tank will have to kite them, and a DPS, probably a LM or RK will have to burn them down. Lets say theres 5 mobs, one big guy, 4 little runs(thinking from memory). They have a total of 400K morale and the LM has to take them down every 10% of the boss health, which based on my earlier estimate, would be about 80 seconds. So this LM would have to keep up 5k DPS up for 80 seconds, while debuffing the boss(maybe 2 LM's? 1 red, 1 yellow). Fairly plausable, but don't forget about the double waves, at the point, the LM is going to need to pull out 10K DPS for 80 seconds, getting kind of ridiculous here, especially since this has to happen on both sides. So we need 4 people already just for the adds, 1 hunter for the boss, 1 dedicated healer for his side, and someone to keep the boss debuffed constantly. The other sides healer could probably do levers, but now we only have 5 people total doing levers, and one of them needs to heal the tank on the way. So is this all possible? I'm sure its possible with 12 100% maxed gear people, who all are positively brilliant on their class, and have every second planned out before they walk in the door.

    Like I said before, I want things to be very hard and complex mechanically, and even if no one wants to put in the time to add in new mechanics, at least punish people more for not getting the old ones down. Make distributed attacks virtually impossible to survive unless everyone that should be taking the hit does, force people to actually CC stuff again, because having an entire trash pull attacking you should be overwhelming. The wights in BG should one shot again, as well as missing a pot in raids that require those. I don't think that applying an over-arcing algorithm to mob health and damage is going to fix the problem. It's definitely more complicated then that.

    And on a side note, from what I've seen I can't believe that you guys did BG t2c. How hard was that stuff hitting you?
    Windfola:
    Bretela LVL 100 Warden Gwaithol LVL 100 Hunter Brilliance LVL 86+ LM
    Mac User, Raider

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcan583 View Post
    I've tested many other things today, lets take for example Warg Pens t2c. The challenge is all about letting the wargs eat the meat, and then then come back and hit twice as hard and your supposed to kill them ASAP, makes sense, except before the wargs eat the meat, their hitting for around 4k DPS each, theres 3 of them, so thats 12k dps.
    WP is mainly tactical damage.
    Heavy classes with capped tact. mit. with essences will certainly still do it alone

  25. #25
    Fires of Smaug, a completely faceroll raid when it came out with U10 and the erebor cluster. We went into it today, Belegnor(the big fire grim in the middle that is tanked by a hunter) has 6.1 million morale, and hits consistently for 11k fire damage. I have 30% tactical mits, so if I got them mixed out he'd only be hitting consistent 7k's, and with a LM keeping frost lore up, it would probably be down to 5K or so. Thats a little more reasonable I guess. But there are a few more mechanics to deal with here, first off lets talk about DPS. Since the Grim has 6.1M morale and 5% of it needs to be taken away every 40 seconds or so, the hunter will need to do 305K in 40 seconds, which would 7.6K DPS. This is probably doable at this point, but not easily maintainable over a 15-20Min period, and when they have to burn through the healing after the Firetender, they'll probably be needing to push past the 10K mark which could probably be done by 2 hunters. Final hurdle here, is the adds. Their are 2 types, the engineers which are now 200k elites, and the little ones which should be around 50k each. We couldn't check how hard they hit because we died too quickly, but I'm assuming that, like everything else, they hit like trucks. So, the tank will have to kite them, and a DPS, probably a LM or RK will have to burn them down. Lets say theres 5 mobs, one big guy, 4 little runs(thinking from memory). They have a total of 400K morale and the LM has to take them down every 10% of the boss health, which based on my earlier estimate, would be about 80 seconds. So this LM would have to keep up 5k DPS up for 80 seconds, while debuffing the boss(maybe 2 LM's? 1 red, 1 yellow). Fairly plausable, but don't forget about the double waves, at the point, the LM is going to need to pull out 10K DPS for 80 seconds, getting kind of ridiculous here, especially since this has to happen on both sides. So we need 4 people already just for the adds, 1 hunter for the boss, 1 dedicated healer for his side, and someone to keep the boss debuffed constantly. The other sides healer could probably do levers, but now we only have 5 people total doing levers, and one of them needs to heal the tank on the way. So is this all possible? I'm sure its possible with 12 100% maxed gear people, who all are positively brilliant on their class, and have every second planned out before they walk in the door.
    After reading this, I find it hard to believe that you have ever done FoS t2c. Here's some key points:
    1) Belegnor has random agro, therefore only 1 person takes a hit from him at a time.
    2) Depending on your strat, you can have between 1 and 8 people hitting the boss at any one time whilst keeping the valves entirely closed. This combined with smart distribution of resources (ie group members) between the adds and the boss means that those numbers you posted seem very reasonable.
    3) You fail to take into account debuffs like cappy and burg marks, Oathbreakers etc. You also fail to take into account buffs such as blade bros, and Anthems.

    This whole thread you've made doesn't take into account the fact that you are under geared; and not running with a full group. From what everyone has been telling me (as I haven't been in game since u14), things are harder - but still achievable, and achievable with lvl 95 gear. Based off of that, the instances have not been buffed enough.
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