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  1. #1

    Helms deep trait feedback

    Overall I think the idea shows a great deal of promise. However, the developers did something VERY wrong when they made this change: they gutted the stances for several class including the warden's recklessness stance and the Burlgar's quiet knife and gambler stances (which I was so glad received additional stances until they were suddenly removed). They also heavily nerfed the determination stance, or rather how it is labeled "In the Fray" stance. Before I was able to hold my own in a solo encounter with the warden and defend my fellows. Now? I crumple in mere moments even being on the defensive from the start and everything slotted into the defense trait tree. Tanks should not die in a matter of seconds! Hell, even my defense captain would last longer. Least he has heavy armor. You had the mixture PERFECT with the stances before this recent update, when you made the assailment stance and added Quietknife and gambler to the burglar. IF you changed the stances back and did what you did with the trait trees, it would have been perfect. Now? My warden is all but useless now. Only use he is now is in range, and if I wanted THAT i'd just play the hunter. Until the stances are fixed I'll need to switch to my captain as my main sadly. I enjoyed the Warden and the utility it had and sad to need to leave it till the next class update.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianofRoin View Post
    Overall I think the idea shows a great deal of promise. However, the developers did something VERY wrong when they made this change: they gutted the stances for several class including the warden's recklessness stance and the Burlgar's quiet knife and gambler stances (which I was so glad received additional stances until they were suddenly removed). They also heavily nerfed the determination stance, or rather how it is labeled "In the Fray" stance. Before I was able to hold my own in a solo encounter with the warden and defend my fellows. Now? I crumple in mere moments even being on the defensive from the start and everything slotted into the defense trait tree. Tanks should not die in a matter of seconds! Hell, even my defense captain would last longer. Least he has heavy armor. You had the mixture PERFECT with the stances before this recent update, when you made the assailment stance and added Quietknife and gambler to the burglar. IF you changed the stances back and did what you did with the trait trees, it would have been perfect. Now? My warden is all but useless now. Only use he is now is in range, and if I wanted THAT i'd just play the hunter. Until the stances are fixed I'll need to switch to my captain as my main sadly. I enjoyed the Warden and the utility it had and sad to need to leave it till the next class update.
    Welcome back to the game. (edit: Unless this is going to continue to devolve into a stream of hashtags, as later posts seem to be doing. I understand the frustration, I really do; I enjoy combat on most classes far less than I used to. But incivility just leads to closed posts and incomplete conversations.)

    I'm wondering if you perhaps don't quite understand some of the changes. If you haven't already looked at them, here's some resources that might help you get back up to speed.

    Burglar: Read this. If that seems a bit much to start with, then first watch this.

    Warden: Read this. If that seems a bit much to start with, then you may learn something useful here here or here. But the post is your best bet on warden, in my opinion.

    I'll agree that utility is greatly diminished across the board. You'll enter combat able to perform one role admirably, but you're stuck in that roll until you're out of combat and switch trees, for the most part. But I think there's something you've yet to grasp on warden, though I'm not sure what. I don't consider myself a very good warden, but I still enjoy the class and find it very interesting to play. I still find him extremely capable of surviving "solo encounters" and able to solo much of the 3 and 6man content, though somewhat less easily than a year ago. The guys hanging out in the warden forum may be of more help to you with getting up to speed on warden that I would be.

    Yes, yellow captains can survive most anything. My wife loves hers. I think red captain is a lot more fun to play, but acknowledge the effectiveness of the yellow cappy.

    Although my burg was my main for seven years, even after having a good grasp of the changes to that class, when I'm in combat on a burg now I'm very bored. Yes, the utility is gone. Mine is semi-retired (see bio.)

    Good luck, and I hope you can find a way to enjoy all 3 classes.
    Last edited by Moochi; Jul 03 2014 at 12:06 PM. Reason: typos, grammar, et al
    Silverlode lvl100 raiding characters: Glaistig Skop | lvl100 solo and small group characters: Bede, Elentir, & Wibba

    Moochinbras - former expert treasure-hunter of Silverlode, now enjoying retirement on Landroval

  3. #3
    It would be helpful if you tell us in which situation you were roughed up in seconds with your warden. And your gear and Level would be interesting to know.
    So far I go along with Moochie not considering the warden to be a weak victim.l

    Maybe your mitigations are not as high as they should be - but that´s hard to tell without details.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Moochi View Post
    Welcome back to the game.

    I'm wondering if you perhaps don't quite understand some of the changes. If you haven't already looked at them, here's some resources that might help you get back up to speed.

    Burglar: Read this. If that seems a bit much to start with, then first watch this.

    Warden: Read this. If that seems a bit much to start with, then you may learn something useful here here or here. But the post is your best bet on warden, in my opinion.

    I'll agree that utility is greatly diminished across the board. You'll enter combat able to perform one role admirably, but you're stuck in that roll until your out of combat and switch trees, for the most part. But I think there's something you've yet to grasp on warden, though I'm not sure what. I don't consider myself a very good warden, but I still enjoy the class and find it very interesting to play. I still find him extremely capable of surviving "solo encounters" and able to solo much of the 3 and 6man content, though somewhat less easily than a year ago. The guys hanging out in the warden forum may be of more help to you with getting up to speed on warden that I would be.

    Yes, yellow captains can survive most anything. My wife loves hers. I think red captain is a lot more fun to play, but acknowledge the effectiveness of the yellow cappy.

    Although my burg was my main for seven years, even after having a good grasp of the changes to that class, when I'm in combat on a burg now I'm very bored. Yes, the utility is gone. Mine is semi-retired (see bio.)

    Good luck, and I hope you can find a way to enjoy all 3 classes.
    I did read over the different changes on how instead of the stances the trait trees were meant to compensate. I understand that. Still, it just seems to be overall worse than before I left due to the security risk of Akamai netclient.

    What I did love the most about the warden WAS the utility, how he could adapt to a variety of situations on the fly. Soloing and a new mob comes by? Switch to Determination. Last enemy turns tail to run? Switch to assailment. Your on the last enemy and you wanna finish them quickly? Switch to recklessness. It just gave a wider array of uses to have those three stances instead of making it completely focused on trait trees. Sure, trait trees supplementing the stances is a great idea. Making your combat reliability completely dependent on the trait tree and only allowing you one area to improve in? That is where I draw issue with this system. I also play TF2 and I know the importance of having to fit in with a group dynamic. When you can only accomplish one single role then you become closed off to the others.

    Turbine is limiting the number of ways we can play the game, something that has killed a good number of games out there since they became listless and boring. I'm just glad I stopped my subscription after that Akamai netclient debacle. Seems this company is making one mistake right after another, particularly since they took my determination's in combat morale regen and cut it down to a mere fraction of what I had.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Hordvin View Post
    It would be helpful if you tell us in which situation you were roughed up in seconds with your warden. And your gear and Level would be interesting to know.
    So far I go along with Moochie not considering the warden to be a weak victim.l

    Maybe your mitigations are not as high as they should be - but that´s hard to tell without details.
    Level 58 Warden with half blue and half purple gear. Legendary spear and Javelin with in the fray in combat morale regen legacy. Determination focus with one or two points in recklessness for damage. I was in a standard one man skirmish using a same level bannerguard with heals and strong damage abilities. Each fight I would always be almost dead by the end or completely dead at last banner even when going completely on the defensive with health taps and the restoration line skills. Issue was they took away about 90% of the in combat morale regen the melee stance had, which was meant to offset the fact they only used medium armor compared to Guardians with their heavy armor and shields.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianofRoin View Post
    Level 58 Warden with half blue and half purple gear. Legendary spear and Javelin with in the fray in combat morale regen legacy. Determination focus with one or two points in recklessness for damage. I was in a standard one man skirmish using a same level bannerguard with heals and strong damage abilities. Each fight I would always be almost dead by the end or completely dead at last banner even when going completely on the defensive with health taps and the restoration line skills. Issue was they took away about 90% of the in combat morale regen the melee stance had, which was meant to offset the fact they only used medium armor compared to Guardians with their heavy armor and shields.
    The warden has gone through some major changes since its introduction in Moria. Each time I would learn how to play, tank and sort of DPS, then a new change meant I had to relearn it. This last time (HD) is the most jarring because it much different. At end level I still enjoy my warden but it is no longer my main. As you said they the changes limit the games style, but that is the result for nearly every class. We are now funneled into playing one way depending on skill tree. It took me months to get over the bitterness of skills that I lost (not only on warden but on my hunter, LM, RK and Champ). I now accept these changes because I have no choice. But a little of my LOTRO soul died with the HD changes and I am still hoping for something to bring back the "magic".
    they are all dead.. they just don't know it yet....

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyx View Post
    The warden has gone through some major changes since its introduction in Moria. Each time I would learn how to play, tank and sort of DPS, then a new change meant I had to relearn it. This last time (HD) is the most jarring because it much different. At end level I still enjoy my warden but it is no longer my main. As you said they the changes limit the games style, but that is the result for nearly every class. We are now funneled into playing one way depending on skill tree. It took me months to get over the bitterness of skills that I lost (not only on warden but on my hunter, LM, RK and Champ). I now accept these changes because I have no choice. But a little of my LOTRO soul died with the HD changes and I am still hoping for something to bring back the "magic".
    That is exactly why I am making this thread, so the development team can see just how much we dislike the HD update and hopefully roll back some of the worse changes. I for one will sadly be logging a great fewer hours in the game until this is resolved. What Turbine does not understand is that there is a wide array of free to play MMOs out there, many of which have overall better practices than they do. I was originally attracted by the incredible and gripping storyline. However it is pointless if I am too sick and tired of the now lousy gameplay to bother with it. I will keep it on my computer to check in every few months, MAYBE. I just hope that the developers realize that restricting and limiting how players can play this game is something that needs immediate correcting.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianofRoin View Post
    That is exactly why I am making this thread, so the development team can see just how much we dislike the HD update and hopefully roll back some of the worse changes. I for one will sadly be logging a great fewer hours in the game until this is resolved. What Turbine does not understand is that there is a wide array of free to play MMOs out there, many of which have overall better practices than they do. I was originally attracted by the incredible and gripping storyline. However it is pointless if I am too sick and tired of the now lousy gameplay to bother with it. I will keep it on my computer to check in every few months, MAYBE. I just hope that the developers realize that restricting and limiting how players can play this game is something that needs immediate correcting.
    We were emphatically told many times that the class revamps (trait trees) would not go away. This question was asked many times in beta and after the release. I am assuming you have just came back to LOTRO since Helms Deep and the changes took you by surprise and I understand your reaction. Like so many things in MMOs the hype of the changes did not add up to the actually execution. Earlier in the year (2013) in some of the dev chats (twiitter) it was said that a reason for revamping the classes was because all the classes became homogeneous. The changes were to add flexibility and variety of play-style. Instead the result is being forced or funneled into playing the style that is predetermined. There are some hybrid classes but it is at such a cost that for the most part it is not worth traiting. My hunter as an example. I love being the glass cannon of pre-HD. What made it such a challenge was that we had enough survival tools that it was possible to get out of some scary situation. For me I relied on the Rain of Thorns, that combined with bard's arrow and cry of the predator I could make my way through the landscape mobs. Now to get rain of thorns on my Bowmaster tree cost too many points that I lose what ever advantage I gain by traiting red. I can of course go all yellow and have more survival skills with significantly less DPS but that is not how I like to play. It was things like those that made it hard to accept the changes. My RK is relaxing at 90 because I still do not like the attunement changes. I am not a fan of cash outs and the heal changes were terrible. I could no longer switch to heals when needed as we did before. I could go on. But the point is that these things will not revert back. Turbine has invested time (1 year or so) and lots of money. The best we can do is try and get the things we want on the new trait trees. The result is that I am mainly play my main where as before I was actively using my 6 alts.
    they are all dead.. they just don't know it yet....

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyx View Post
    We were emphatically told many times that the class revamps (trait trees) would not go away. This question was asked many times in beta and after the release. I am assuming you have just came back to LOTRO since Helms Deep and the changes took you by surprise and I understand your reaction. Like so many things in MMOs the hype of the changes did not add up to the actually execution. Earlier in the year (2013) in some of the dev chats (twiitter) it was said that a reason for revamping the classes was because all the classes became homogeneous. The changes were to add flexibility and variety of play-style. Instead the result is being forced or funneled into playing the style that is predetermined. There are some hybrid classes but it is at such a cost that for the most part it is not worth traiting. My hunter as an example. I love being the glass cannon of pre-HD. What made it such a challenge was that we had enough survival tools that it was possible to get out of some scary situation. For me I relied on the Rain of Thorns, that combined with bard's arrow and cry of the predator I could make my way through the landscape mobs. Now to get rain of thorns on my Bowmaster tree cost too many points that I lose what ever advantage I gain by traiting red. I can of course go all yellow and have more survival skills with significantly less DPS but that is not how I like to play. It was things like those that made it hard to accept the changes. My RK is relaxing at 90 because I still do not like the attunement changes. I am not a fan of cash outs and the heal changes were terrible. I could no longer switch to heals when needed as we did before. I could go on. But the point is that these things will not revert back. Turbine has invested time (1 year or so) and lots of money. The best we can do is try and get the things we want on the new trait trees. The result is that I am mainly play my main where as before I was actively using my 6 alts.
    To be perfectly frank it was another of Turbine's screwups that made me leave for a while. When they started using Akamai netsession client, which forces you to connect to a peer to peer network that connects you directly to hundreds of thousands of other computers, I flipped the #### out since I am studying network security. Just crack one computer and you can use it to hack the entire network. I immediately uninstalled the game and force deleted Akamai from my hard drive. I went on a hiatus because the game was literally not even safe to play on my computer. During that time I missed it terribly. Now when I come back to it the fun and exciting gameplay has evolved into a steaming pile of #### that Turbine wont even bother to spray air freshener on. To be perfectly honest, I was not a fan of Turbine from even before Akamai. I find that their idea to keep people restricted to only the epic story quest and the skirmishes unless they bought map packs was just a ####ty business move. Still, I thought it showed promise and put money into the game. I figured if I joined in the exodus of players once akamai was put on they might rethink their strategy. And now not only have they taken away the flexibility and fun of playing these classes, but refuse to recognize how much the fans hate the new system as well. There are other games I can spend my time on, and quite frankly it seems Turbine has wasted mine for too long. To think this was the MMO I was most invested in and it just completely went to ####.

  10. #10
    I felt i had to make another thread on this because it seriously angers me every time i login now how gutted my hunter is. They took away everything fun and made it a standard A B C choice in play style, I cant be a jack of all trades hunter. They gutted my melee prowess, i loved using my swifstroke and agile rejoiner. I feel like my class soul has been ripped out

  11. #11
    They swept my topic under the rug into the hunter forum so people won't see it, i guess ill just promote this thread.

  12. #12
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    More like, if you opened a hunter specific thread, you should have opened it in the hunter forum in the first place, not in general discussion. Personally, I like the trait trees and the specialization. I do wish the off tree point situation was more like two, then one, then two, etc., because two for one is a little much, but overall, it's seems fair to me. But hey, I'm not someone who thinks that the game revolves around my personal likes and dislikes.

  13. #13
    To be honest, its not even the trees themselves that have me pissed. Its more the fact it came with gutting every class in the game. Everyone I know sees how much it sucked and turned to other games. I just hope they are ready for LOTRO to be dead weight after this update and their response to the players telling them it was ####. Hopefully (or not) they can stay afloat with DDO.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GuardianofRoin View Post
    To be perfectly frank it was another of Turbine's screwups that made me leave for a while. When they started using Akamai netsession client, which forces you to connect to a peer to peer network that connects you directly to hundreds of thousands of other computers,...
    Do you mean Pando?

    Akamai is a very recent change, and it's only used for installs and not for patching. Also, Turbine has explicitly stated that P2P is turned off for LOTRO. Only downloads from Akamai's edge servers where the content is controlled by Turbine and not from any other client.
    Cener, Ingo, Rilibald, Hesred, Halras, Loringo
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    http://www.theoldergamers.com

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyx View Post
    At end level I still enjoy my warden but it is no longer my main. As you said they the changes limit the games style, but that is the result for nearly every class. We are now funneled into playing one way depending on skill tree. It took me months to get over the bitterness of skills that I lost (not only on warden but on my hunter, LM, RK and Champ). I now accept these changes because I have no choice. But a little of my LOTRO soul died with the HD changes and I am still hoping for something to bring back the "magic".
    I could have written this paragraph about myself. The sorrow the eldar (a long term player of Lord of the Rings Online) is never ending.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by GregJL View Post
    More like, if you opened a hunter specific thread, you should have opened it in the hunter forum in the first place, not in general discussion. Personally, I like the trait trees and the specialization. I do wish the off tree point situation was more like two, then one, then two, etc., because two for one is a little much, but overall, it's seems fair to me. But hey, I'm not someone who thinks that the game revolves around my personal likes and dislikes.
    Except it was about all classes and i was using mine as the main example, but thanks for the passive aggressive opinion because if someone isn't happy about a change they are being a cry baby and have no right to voice it.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by kenok View Post
    Except it was about all classes and i was using mine as the main example, but thanks for the passive aggressive opinion because if someone isn't happy about a change they are being a cry baby and have no right to voice it.
    I went on my RK recently, first time since a few weeks after HD launch. What I do like is that change in damage. I know I was so OP that I could barely die. Now it is a challenge. I said this at the beginning (making me sound like an astute prophet) that the ridiculous amount of DPS that the class had after the revamp would mask the classes short-comings. Once that balance was made (which apparently 13.1 or whatever the latest update is) adjusted (though my hunter still can't tell the difference) I am seeing how much I dislike the changes for the RK. Steady Hands is worthless. I see how it is supposed to be used but it is not like it was before. I loved being able to do major damage then when needed switch to healing. What I hated at first with the revamp I hate even more, and that is how the Attunement works like a hunter's focus. Before I viewed my RK as a pot of boiling water (does sound weird) where as I started off slow and built up pressure and once it was overflowing it was nearly unstoppable. Now it is just about gathering focus, using focus, and gathering focus and repeating. If I was not so freaking squishy this would be a rather boring class. But the fact that I have to run away like a scared little hobbit and use my one heal skill till I can turn around and do it again makes the class sort of fun. At level 90 I was putting up some big numbers on level 87 - 89 mobs. I have an average build (what am I a saying my dwarf is fat) with mostly warband drops and 1 BB drop. I think I need to hang out on the RK forum to see what I am doing wrong.
    they are all dead.. they just don't know it yet....

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyx View Post
    I went on my RK recently, first time since a few weeks after HD launch. What I do like is that change in damage. I know I was so OP that I could barely die. Now it is a challenge. I said this at the beginning (making me sound like an astute prophet) that the ridiculous amount of DPS that the class had after the revamp would mask the classes short-comings. Once that balance was made (which apparently 13.1 or whatever the latest update is) adjusted (though my hunter still can't tell the difference) I am seeing how much I dislike the changes for the RK. Steady Hands is worthless. I see how it is supposed to be used but it is not like it was before. I loved being able to do major damage then when needed switch to healing. What I hated at first with the revamp I hate even more, and that is how the Attunement works like a hunter's focus. Before I viewed my RK as a pot of boiling water (does sound weird) where as I started off slow and built up pressure and once it was overflowing it was nearly unstoppable. Now it is just about gathering focus, using focus, and gathering focus and repeating. If I was not so freaking squishy this would be a rather boring class. But the fact that I have to run away like a scared little hobbit and use my one heal skill till I can turn around and do it again makes the class sort of fun. At level 90 I was putting up some big numbers on level 87 - 89 mobs. I have an average build (what am I a saying my dwarf is fat) with mostly warband drops and 1 BB drop. I think I need to hang out on the RK forum to see what I am doing wrong.
    And you know, i never said once that the dps was worse or anything, but do you really find the new revamp for the classes fun? I know my hunter is just spamming quickshot, swift arrow and piercing shot, throw in a merciful shot here and there. even at melee range now. Melee just feels totally gimped compared to before.

  19. #19
    No I do not like the hunter changes as I stated a few times earlier. I do not like the changes on my RK, on my Warden and on my Cappy. I can stomach the LM changes but I wish the yellow line was enhanced. My guard is the victim of the aggro change. The burg changes are like most other changes, funneled into a predetermined role. Of all the classes I play the Hunter is the one that is a mindless rotation. I am in agreement with your thoughts on the Hunter. We do great damage but the fun factor is not their anymore. There are other things that keep me playing and enjoying LOTRO but the class revamp is not one of them.
    they are all dead.. they just don't know it yet....

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by anthonyx View Post
    No I do not like the hunter changes as I stated a few times earlier. I do not like the changes on my RK, on my Warden and on my Cappy. I can stomach the LM changes but I wish the yellow line was enhanced. My guard is the victim of the aggro change. The burg changes are like most other changes, funneled into a predetermined role. Of all the classes I play the Hunter is the one that is a mindless rotation. I am in agreement with your thoughts on the Hunter. We do great damage but the fun factor is not their anymore. There are other things that keep me playing and enjoying LOTRO but the class revamp is not one of them.
    I was making sure on the other changes too. Turbine almost always does something new to make me regret choosing hunter as my main

  21. #21
    I dont understand what is your problem with this revamp. I have played many MMO, and i have to say this revamp is very good (except the wrd.)With these class revamps the game become too easy. They must make the game harder. (Instead of making new class they should make some end game raid/instance.)

  22. #22
    I know the class changes and loss of utility are a huge factor in my parking 7 of my 8 toons at 85 and not playing them since HD, I do not like how they play now, it is not fun to play them. I still play my main, a warden but even there due to the changes and the lackluster quality of the questing content in HD, I play far less than I used to. I do not hate skill tree systems per se, I play some games with good skill tree systems. LOTRO's is not a good one as far as I am concerned.

    I do not think that was the response Turbine envisioned from players in making their "irrevocable" decision. Customers can make irrevocable decisions too, ones that smack a company right where it hurts the most. The bottom line. And I know a number of folks who quit LOTRO altogether over the changes and have not come back since. They are RL friends and they are happily playing other games and I play them with them a lot of the time since the changes to the LOTRO classes freed up all the time I would have otherwise put into my alts and gearing my main up. Instead I finished the HD quest lines on my warden only and don't do much of anything except grind a little rep now and then while I wait for new content. If the new content is as boring as HD was, I won't spend long on it either.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nosdracir View Post
    Do you mean Pando?

    Akamai is a very recent change, and it's only used for installs and not for patching. Also, Turbine has explicitly stated that P2P is turned off for LOTRO. Only downloads from Akamai's edge servers where the content is controlled by Turbine and not from any other client.
    No, I mean Akamai. For those who have not looked into it it is a client that forces your computer to be used as a peer to peer client on a network. It is made to be constantly connected to monitor the data flow and allow for the same information to be sent across the network. It is like bit torrent in the way that it uses information. However, since it was always on and I could not open the game client with Akamai disabled, it presented a HUGE risk to my computer's security. That is the main reason I left last time. The HD update with gutting most of the class utility and making them work only one way is the reason I am leaving now.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothan117 View Post
    I know the class changes and loss of utility are a huge factor in my parking 7 of my 8 toons at 85 and not playing them since HD, I do not like how they play now, it is not fun to play them. I still play my main, a warden but even there due to the changes and the lackluster quality of the questing content in HD, I play far less than I used to. I do not hate skill tree systems per se, I play some games with good skill tree systems. LOTRO's is not a good one as far as I am concerned.

    I do not think that was the response Turbine envisioned from players in making their "irrevocable" decision. Customers can make irrevocable decisions too, ones that smack a company right where it hurts the most. The bottom line. And I know a number of folks who quit LOTRO altogether over the changes and have not come back since. They are RL friends and they are happily playing other games and I play them with them a lot of the time since the changes to the LOTRO classes freed up all the time I would have otherwise put into my alts and gearing my main up. Instead I finished the HD quest lines on my warden only and don't do much of anything except grind a little rep now and then while I wait for new content. If the new content is as boring as HD was, I won't spend long on it either.
    I know another game that caused its downfall by making huge dramatic changes to classes that was not needed *glances at SWG*

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by kenok View Post
    I know another game that caused its downfall by making huge dramatic changes to classes that was not needed *glances at SWG*
    NGE?? Also glaring at SWG.....
    they are all dead.. they just don't know it yet....

 

 
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