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Thread: Champions duel

  1. #26
    Champions duel is indeed seriously broken and should be changed, but gotta say I quite like the idea of an un-removable slow, obviously not at the level it is right now, but just the fact that our slowing capabilities are above cappies only because of having Champs duel is rather sad. Maybe have hamstring apply a second weaker slow that is running underneath the more potent one and stays if someone removes slows (kinda like when you pot a quick shot slow and end up with the barbed arrow slow) I might be really silly right now though. I probably wouldn't have much of a problem with CD not having a slow and hamstring now having a knockdown if it had a normal cooldown...

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldeld View Post
    Maybe on *your* server that's what they're doing, but don't assume every server is like that. The rare champ you spot on ours I have *never* seen any of them do this... ever.


    So what? Raids and instances are old news, there is NOTHING challenging in them any more, CD or not. There are NO new instances or raids coming out, so again... your point is 100% irrelevant.

    As soon as we get a usable slow that's on par with CD, as another said - fixing hamstring, and we get good some DPS boosts, then sure - rework it, but until then your silly suggestion of removing CD is garbage. Until then to combat wargs and reavers who are as close to a champ as the opposition has, and whose abilities grabs a champ by the throat, tosses them on the ground and then boot-stomps their necks, we NEED champ's duel.

    Precisely. Raids and instances I couldn't care less about, I know of no raid (except maybe Fear OD wing??) that will be made easier to the point at which it is actually difficult to complete without Champ's Duel.

    In pvp raids, CD is near enough useless anyway, targets either die instantly (5 sec or 10 at MOST) or they do not die, yeah, you can pop it on a warg harassing a healer, one warg, great. But in the grand scheme of things, it's just a gnat hovering around a 24v24. It has mass uses in small group, however, but to be quite frank, creepside has all the advantages in small group right now, so honestly it's another moot point.

    Also I should add to what Adeld said about champs not running away. I have literally NEVER seen a champ CD someone and leg it away, the majority of people who play champ now are the ones that are looking for a challenge, 90% of the trashy ROR/ROI champs that just wanted to be godmode have gone, they're on their spiders/defilers/reavers/wargs. The fact that some people abuse the skill to "run to the one-shots" doesn't mean the skill should be nerfed. The majority of the wargs on Brandywine only use Sprint/Hips to run away, most BA's use snares to slow someone whilst ... You guessed it, running away. I've seen hundreds upon hundreds of reavers using Resilience not to get in quick and get a kill, but to leg it AWAY from a fight. All I see is people running away, yet strikingly, I've seen very few champs doing this, none, that I can recall.

    As per my other posts, though, yes, the skill needs a change but NOT until the class state without it is reviewed, and not until they give us our gosh-darn hamstring back the way it was. The awesome 1 second knockdown is fun (the 1% of the time it's not BPE'd) but frankly, I can do without it.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Precisely. Raids and instances I couldn't care less about, I know of no raid (except maybe Fear OD wing??) that will be made easier to the point at which it is actually difficult to complete without Champ's Duel.

    In pvp raids, CD is near enough useless anyway, targets either die instantly (5 sec or 10 at MOST) or they do not die, yeah, you can pop it on a warg harassing a healer, one warg, great. But in the grand scheme of things, it's just a gnat hovering around a 24v24. It has mass uses in small group, however, but to be quite frank, creepside has all the advantages in small group right now, so honestly it's another moot point.

    Also I should add to what Adeld said about champs not running away. I have literally NEVER seen a champ CD someone and leg it away, the majority of people who play champ now are the ones that are looking for a challenge, 90% of the trashy ROR/ROI champs that just wanted to be godmode have gone, they're on their spiders/defilers/reavers/wargs. The fact that some people abuse the skill to "run to the one-shots" doesn't mean the skill should be nerfed. The majority of the wargs on Brandywine only use Sprint/Hips to run away, most BA's use snares to slow someone whilst ... You guessed it, running away. I've seen hundreds upon hundreds of reavers using Resilience not to get in quick and get a kill, but to leg it AWAY from a fight. All I see is people running away, yet strikingly, I've seen very few champs doing this, none, that I can recall.

    As per my other posts, though, yes, the skill needs a change but NOT until the class state without it is reviewed, and not until they give us our gosh-darn hamstring back the way it was. The awesome 1 second knockdown is fun (the 1% of the time it's not BPE'd) but frankly, I can do without it.
    I think we've established some of you could care less about pve, but that should not mean since some think "so what" and "I could care less" that an entire game should be subjected to a poor mechanic on a skill that has gambreaking consequences, especially if people are serious about improving pve challenge.

    If you don't think champs duel is powerful in raids either pve or pvp, you might want to consider putting them on a reaver for pvp instead of a warg (warg sprint ignores cd) and having the tank go dps for single boss fights and have whoever is highest dps kite.

    A champ gets closer to balanced the smaller the fights in pvp with a good group. And if you don't believe me, ask the creep community how champs duel is making champs so brave. Though Ido sgree that a good chunk of champs nowadays are a bit more experienced than in the past, the majority of players on any class will use their slow skills or speed skills to run away. Your rose colored view of champions doesn't make that any less true of our beloved class. We have one of the best getaways in the moors, so people will try to get away.

    Again, it's as if I'm arguing to completely remove champs duel. Creeps being able to pot cd and bosses being immune to the slow arent going to make champs worthless.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    We have one of the best getaways in the moors, so people will try to get away.
    Sure, get away from ONE creep, and how many times do you run into just one creep? Just knock it off, your excuses for nerfing a nerfed class are lame.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldeld View Post
    Sure, get away from ONE creep, and how many times do you run into just one creep? Just knock it off, your excuses for nerfing a nerfed class are lame.
    Sprint? Please quit trolling the thread.

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    Sprint? Please quit trolling the thread.
    Yeah, sprint until you're cced through it anyway and zerged, or creeps wait to get out of combat and insta-toggle their move speed buff. Meanwhile your sprint dies, and you get ranged while trying to mount. Tell me that's not what happens most of the time. Trolling? Pot, meet kettle.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldeld View Post
    Yeah, sprint until you're cced through it anyway and zerged, or creeps wait to get out of combat and insta-toggle their move speed buff. Meanwhile your sprint dies, and you get ranged while trying to mount. Tell me that's not what happens most of the time. Trolling? Pot, meet kettle.
    Have I not provided support for all my claims? Please realize we are the only class who can be immune to all combat states for a time, on top of being able to sideline one creep. Only spiders and Wargs can get away better. And if you're getting served by more than 3, well, not even a creep gets away from that aside from warg.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    Sprint? Please quit trolling the thread.
    Uhh, when a champ sprints on me, or a zerg I happen to be near, I simply drop combat (or remain out of combat) and walk past him running at 135% with march +10% buff. (or 145% if I'm a spider or warg).

    Champs Duel CAN be used for escaping, as can a great number of skills, part of the reason pvp is better than pve is the option to use skills in different ways, but my "view" is not "rose tinted", I simply do not see champions using Champs Duel to run away.

    And I did not say that CD is not powerful in pve raids, simply that the fact it makes easy content marginally easier doesn't mean the skill should be nerfed, make bosses immune, sorted. Champs Duel is not make or break for pve, is my point. You don't go "WHOA GUYS, we can't do Durchest today, because our kin champs aren't online, and we won't be able to endlessly kite content one competent guardian can facetank without any issues whatsoever." do you? I don't. Also you mention (again) about using CD on a reaver instead of a warg, my warg example was just that, an example. The fact that you can 50% slow (for 50% of the time assuming no BPEs or resists) one of a 12-24mans dps, is great, but still totally negligible. If a reaver is slowed by 50%, and is following the main Raid Assist, I struggle to imagine that the freep it's chasing will not also be slowed by 50% by spider webs which with a couple of spiders in a raid have permanent up time now. Can't see it making a great deal of difference when all it takes to kill a healer are 2 good BA's anyway, 1, come U14 lol.

    My point isn't that CD doesn't need to be looked at, it's simply that a couple of people using the skill to run away, as A LOT OF OTHERS DO ON A LOT OF OTHER CLASSES, isn't a reason to nerf one good skill champs have to the heavens. Revise the skill. Wargs sprint and hips to their hearts content all day every day, 10v1? Hips & Sprint. 20v1? Hips & Sprint. 10v1 and champ pops Champs Duel and Sprints away from one of the ten on him? OH MY GOD GUYS LETS NERF CHAMPS DUEL.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Uhh, when a champ sprints on me, or a zerg I happen to be near, I simply drop combat (or remain out of combat) and walk past him running at 135% with march +10% buff. (or 145% if I'm a spider or warg).
    true, except the champion can do it in combat for 45 seconds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Champs Duel CAN be used for escaping, as can a great number of skills, part of the reason pvp is better than pve is the option to use skills in different ways, but my "view" is not "rose tinted", I simply do not see champions using Champs Duel to run away.
    glad we agree a lot of people use a great number of skills to run away. You say that in the same breath you assume most champs don't run. That's why you have rose colored glasses of the champion class, and it seems freeps goggles too in general, since you are very adament about wargs and spiders and reavers running away. I see them running away too, but I'm not naive enough to think there is not as much of that happening on freepside, or more since freeps are generally a bit weaker in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    And I did not say that CD is not powerful in pve raids, simply that the fact it makes easy content marginally easier doesn't mean the skill should be nerfed, make bosses immune, sorted. Champs Duel is not make or break for pve, is my point. You don't go "WHOA GUYS, we can't do Durchest today, because our kin champs aren't online, and we won't be able to endlessly kite content one competent guardian can facetank without any issues whatsoever." do you? I don't.
    you're right there's a list of other things need reworking, like instance and raid difficulty, but that doesn't mean champions duel is not one of them. Hopefully with U14 instances and raids are difficult again. If that's true, you'll see champions become quite the mantlepiece for many a raid. I think most people are looking at this as "fix xxx, then fix champions duel". Why not both? If something's broken, which CD is, fix it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Also you mention (again) about using CD on a reaver instead of a warg, my warg example was just that, an example.
    right, an argument meant to undermine the importance and OPness of champs duel in a raid as if it wasn't important. Throw it on the class which has the only counter for it. Right, sounds logical. It's ironic considering how up in arms some of us in this thread are about fixing the unpottable slow, that now you're trying to minimize its effectiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    The fact that you can 50% slow (for 50% of the time assuming no BPEs or resists) one of a 12-24mans dps, is great, but still totally negligible. If a reaver is slowed by 50%, and is following the main Raid Assist, I struggle to imagine that the freep it's chasing will not also be slowed by 50% by spider webs which with a couple of spiders in a raid have permanent up time now.
    Couple champions duel that with other slows, stuns, knockdowns, roots, etc and any creep can tell you it's quite the SoB to catch something while running at -70% run speed. And if you're talking about a 12 man group, how many of them are dps? Out of those dps how many are reavers? And if you're talking about freepside how many champions are there? How many are using their CD effectively? The numbers game is pretty stupid because it's very situational.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Can't see it making a great deal of difference when all it takes to kill a healer are 2 good BA's anyway, 1, come U14 lol.
    this is true. I'd just as soon petition for the -50% incoming healing be reduced in either potency, upkeep, or duration. But that doesn't mean champion's duel's slow isn't stupid either. Especially if champions are going to be as good as i'm hearing rumors of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    My point isn't that CD doesn't need to be looked at, it's simply that a couple of people using the skill to run away, as A LOT OF OTHERS DO ON A LOT OF OTHER CLASSES, isn't a reason to nerf one good skill champs have to the heavens. Revise the skill. Wargs sprint and hips to their hearts content all day every day, 10v1? Hips & Sprint. 20v1? Hips & Sprint. 10v1 and champ pops Champs Duel and Sprints away from one of the ten on him? OH MY GOD GUYS LETS NERF CHAMPS DUEL.
    It very much needs to be looked at. And quit drawing the argument to a numbers situation and basing my entire discussion around that. Wouldn't you rather have a champs duel that, in a 10v1, allowed the champion to take one of those 10 with them? I would. That's where i stand. Please stop propping my name up on a stick and filling my clothes with straw.
    Last edited by mrfigglesworth; Jul 06 2014 at 03:24 PM.

  10. #35
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    My point isn't that freeps don't run away, you don't read what I write you just speculate, maybe on your server, everyone spends their entire time running away from everything, but you have to look at this objectively and not just from your point of view. On Brandyzerg, lots of people run away from fights on either side, but do read on:

    From what I have seen no champs that I play around have I ever noticed CD'ing someone just to sprint away. This is not rose tinted anything, this is my observation, I can tell you outright I have quite literally never seen someone just get attacked, Champs Duel, Sprint, and leg it away, I mean, I solo mostly, and I don't take part in GV or Grams camps, but I can tell you again, I simply don't see this. Yes I've seen people sprint away, and I've sprinted away from many a zerg, as is my right, with my sprint skill, just as every other creep or freep.

    And my point isn't that "meh mehm eh meh mehmehmehm all creeps are OP QQ they can all run away" my point is that all freeps and creeps can and DO do this, and almost all freeps and creeps have some sort of ability to do this, too, not a direct sprint, but decent enough CC or slows, flops, or just survival skills that allow them to get from A to B against the odds. The fact that champ has a skill that is highly potent on ONE opponent of many, is irrelevant. As I've said multiple times I agree a 50% slow that is unpotable is too much, but also, a 50% slow that's instantly potable by any creep is not enough.

    It shouldn't stack with other slows, that's ridiculous, I've not once said it should. And I'm not saying that it's no good because it does very little in raid v raid, you may have noticed in an above post I mentioned how effective it is in small grouping.

    You're arguing against points I haven't actually made because you don't read what I write, you assume. I too would rather have a berserker champ that can go berserk and ACTUALLY kill something before I'm two-shotted. Frankly, hitting 15k on a ranked reaver like they hit on a ranked champ would be pretty damn sweet, but until that happens, calling for nerfs on some of the things we have that actually WORK right now, is not where I'm at. Yep, review it, get it sorted, once our class is comparable to... Any creep class toe to toe. Work on them at the same time, sure, that's great. Just remember this is turbine, they don't do this, they make knee-jerk decisions that are way over the top, with total disregard for it's impact on gameplay, class mechanics, pvp, pve, or anything else it may affect.

    Frankly what I'd love is for all creeps to have their ridiculous survivability reviewed, since all freep survival has been taken away (bar a few skills here and there). Reavers, Wargs, and Spiders in particular. That would certainly even the playing field for champs, meaning that we're not both out-gunned and out-survived by our opponents.

  11. #36
    Reading this thread... maybe I should go back and revisit PvE Instances and Raids... Champs Dual must be god-mode "I'm-a-champ-in-redline-and-I'm-soloing-everything" in PvE based on this argument.

    Admittedly.. I only ever run redline on a big ST boss for PvE.. Yellowline is way more effective through 99% of every instance out there.

    If you're running the instance with an even moderately competent group, you're going to demolish everything in the instance anyways.. regardless if there's a champ in redline.


    In a PvMP GvG or RvR, if your target isn't dead in 10 seconds.. it's time to move on to a different one.. leaving the stacking debuffs behind and the creep will have 2 rows of fungal spores on it by then, making it indestructable.

    I'm sure (given the fact I was QQ'ed for using Fight On and lost against a reaver who used impale last time I ventured into the circle) that CD is probably a reason for you to get a KoS label in the 1V1's these days so champs who live for 1v1's probably don't use it.

    I've never thought of using it to run away from a fight. Usually by the time I realize it's time to go, I have (and probably any other champ who has a basic understanding of their skills) probably already blew CD during the fight and it's on cooldown.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    stuff
    You aren't going to convince him. He's one of those champs that likes being abused by Turbine, and any time the class gets something to counter the opposition, he starts throwing out accusations of easy-mode and all this other nonsense.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldeld View Post
    You aren't going to convince him. He's one of those champs that likes being abused by Turbine, and any time the class gets something to counter the opposition, he starts throwing out accusations of easy-mode and all this other nonsense.
    is this just post padding at this point?

  14. #39
    I'm kind of sick of CD being avoided. It's a tactical skill. Please fix this, it's annoying beyond belief to see it BPE'ed.

  15. #40
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    Once again, not everyone does pvmp...the skill is just fine for PVE. It fits in the Red Tree and is good for taking on tough single targets. Everything doesn't have to fit thru the pvmp filter. You are trying to convince our dev to change it, I'm doing the oppostie.

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by treato View Post
    Once again, not everyone does pvmp...the skill is just fine for PVE. It fits in the Red Tree and is good for taking on tough single targets. Everything doesn't have to fit thru the pvmp filter. You are trying to convince our dev to change it, I'm doing the oppostie.
    aside from the slow that goes through every single immunity in the game, yes the skill is just fine for pve.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    but you have to look at this objectively and not just from your point of view
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    From what I have seen no champs that I play around have I ever noticed CD'ing someone just to sprint away. This is not rose tinted anything, this is my observation, I can tell you outright I have quite literally never seen someone just get attacked, Champs Duel, Sprint, and leg it away, I mean, I solo mostly,
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    and I don't take part in GV or Grams camps, but I can tell you again, I simply don't see this. Yes I've seen people sprint away, and I've sprinted away from many a zerg, as is my right, with my sprint skill, just as every other creep or freep.
    Between 15-16 uses of 'I' & 'My' you're not doing a very effective job at remaining purely objective or proving your point. Objectivity sort of needs a strong base around the repeated use of anecdotes and subjective experience, right?


    Anyways, I've used it to escape from death plenty. The prospect of my 16,000th death on champion doesn't bother me so much as the victory of denying points to awful players. I think I'm a pretty capable judge of what I can do at any given time or if a fight is worth pursuing or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    a 50% slow that's instantly potable by any creep is not enough.
    This I do actually agree with, I took an extended break after the last farce that was considered an update to the Champion. The complete breaking of Hamstring made yellow line unplayable and for a class that was as underwhelming as champion was at that time, it is and was the worst change to date.


    Red line as is, is an underwhelming joke in both speed and damage of what we once were as a class. So I could honestly care less if they gutted it and just reworked the entire thing, but as is the idea seems to be "no it's too late to go back now so let's just ignore our fundamental problems thoroughly and make precise strikes tier up quicker lol that'll shut em up". I haven't seen a single person disagree with this point so when I see a repeated lack of meaningful change and things like....3% parry added (which isn't a buff by the way, it's barely a rework of the avoidance nerf).


    Anyways tl;dr the presence or lack of this dumb skill doesn't make the champion more or less awful by default. But needing a stupid skill like this even on paper is a sore reminder of how poor current design has continued to be. The points for this skill being removed or functioning differently as a capstone make 100x more logical sense then those against, and I really don't sympathize with the attitude of "but derp everyone deserves a broken skill or two". If you like stupid then go play a reaver or warden, one of the classes that has been pretty consistently babied through the last 100 patches or so. They've made it out pretty well and don't really require out of the box thinking to be successful.

  18. #43
    Thread bump. I think it is now time to finally make the slow potable/not usable on raid bosses.

  19. #44
    Yeah because SO many champs are using this on raid bosses. How about instead of distracting devs with stupid soapbox theatrics you bring up some real issues for them to work on. Once the class isn't a train wreck then by all means feel free to bend their ear with your disdain for things like CD. Until then, this thread needs to die.

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Laura_Everett View Post
    One thing we realised is now vital is keeping the fell-beast perma slowed, so I would sacrifice burg and one hunter for an extra two champs, as it seems the only slow able to affect the fell-beast is champions duel, which has 30s duration with 1min CD... so 3 champs could keep it up permanently...
    You were saying?...

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldeld View Post
    Yeah because SO many champs are using this on raid bosses. How about instead of distracting devs with stupid soapbox theatrics you bring up some real issues for them to work on. Once the class isn't a train wreck then by all means feel free to bend their ear with your disdain for things like CD. Until then, this thread needs to die.
    Both excuses for champs having cd is gone. Raids are difficult and this slow is exploitative. Champions are much more potent in moors. Don't be a champions duel fanboy anymore plz.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    Champions are much more potent in moors. Don't be a champions duel fanboy anymore plz.
    Yeah. Now Champions only suck compared to any other DPS class, instead of having DPS so laughable they couldn't even be considered a DPS class. CD being modified is not a high priority issue for this class, as Champion is still very much broken. I don't know why you're harping on something so pointless instead of focusing on other real problems.

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldeld View Post
    Yeah. Now Champions only suck compared to any other DPS class, instead of having DPS so laughable they couldn't even be considered a DPS class. CD being modified is not a high priority issue for this class, as Champion is still very much broken. I don't know why you're harping on something so pointless instead of focusing on other real problems.
    This is simply not true. My champion will out DPS a lot of other classes, especially if they are not played so well. I give you the example of me doing 8k+ DPS in OD Poison, me DPS-tanking the Tree in OD Disease, and the list goes on.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    This is simply not true. My champion will out DPS a lot of other classes, especially if they are not played so well. I give you the example of me doing 8k+ DPS in OD Poison, me DPS-tanking the Tree in OD Disease, and the list goes on.
    Pitting someone who can play the class to its maximum potential against baddies is not how you measure success.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Thread bump. I think it is now time to finally make the slow potable/not usable on raid bosses.
    For sure, i definitely do not feel at all weak as a champ. Agree on the raid bosses, but I dunno how i feel about a potable slow, especially with hamstring as it is now. I'd prefer that resilience and whatnot work on it but not just a fear pot or whatever. I think the potency of the slow could be reduced though and maybe remove the outgoing damage debuff. Maybe not I dunno but it just seems a bit out of place, I'm not really sure.

 

 
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