Continued discussion from SHIELD transcript RE: Raids and the future

[Runesi_EU]

In the future, as relates to these events, the question on raids will be passed. If you'd like to continue the discussion please feel free to use the raids forum, but let's keep this thread clear as it will no longer be a topic addressed in these runs.

As per Sapience suggestion, starting this thread in order to continue the discussion started here

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-What-Was-Said

regarding the future (or lack of) of raids in LotRO mentioned in the transcript from the SHIELD run.

[Runesi_EU]

The transcript that was being discussed;

SHIELD Dwarf Run Q&A – Eldar

Transcript by Moochi, with some help from Frickinmuck

Guest for this run, Matt "HoarseDev" Zimitti, Lead Systems Designer.

Please note: I am paraphrasing here. Anything said here is coming through my interpretation of what was said, and is subject to being corrected, so don't take all this as the final word.

If anyone who was present has any additions or corrections, feel free to post.

SHIELD Dwarf Run Q&A – Eldar

Video available here.

1. What is he drinking?
   He thinks it is coke or something. He doesn't remember what he dumped in there. Or root beer. [He samples] Coke, yup, no root beer.
2. Will you have to start Beornings at level 50?
   That is the current plan and thinking. Pretty much a fairly solid plan at this point. He hasn't heard any discussions to the otherwise, but until it ships, nothing is locked in stone.
3. So far, without picking favourites, what has been his most memorable run to date?
   That would probably be the Bullroarer TtHtI run. It was just Mayhem. Everyone just had a whole lot of fun being stomped by Balrogs.
   Matt "HoarseDev" Zimitti, LotRO's Lead System Designer joins the text chat.
4. Can he ask the lore people if they can release what suggested naming schemes for Beornings will be so people can create placeholder characters for names that they want?
   Sapience - That’s a really good idea and he will speak to them about it and see if they can’t get a post up about how you should name your Beorning.
   HoarseDev - Says they're not at the naming phase yet.
5. When is the summer festival going to start?
   Sapience - He doesn't have the exact date in front of him. The concern is that it will be the last week in July and first week in August and he has a bad feeling that will make people unhappy. It will be after Update 14, that much he does know. He thinks last week of July and first week of August will at least encompass part of the festival.
   HoarseDev - Soon, once u14 is out the door.
6. Will U14 have any changes to the treasure hunt?
   Sapience - None that he is currently aware of, although he believes that the suggestion and request has been made for updating lootboxes
7. When is launch for U14?
   Sapience - Can't tell us just yet probably in the very near future we'll be talking about a date.
8. Any idea if any new raids are coming; I know you guys said no new raids?
   Sapience - So that question is kind of answering itself, pretty much. As Rowan said in the roundtable and as they have been saying for the better part of a year, or actually a little longer than a year now, there are no raids in the foreseeable future.
9. Is U14 in the next month?
   Sapience - U14 will release on the exact date on which it is release. Pretty much, when he says he's not going to tell us, he's not going to tell us. But it will be sooner rather than later that he can tell us. [I was unable to determine the presence or frequency of capitalism and trademarks attached to that soon - Moochi].
10. Any word if the trait promotion pre-set quick-swapping method is going to make it in for Update 14?
    HoarseDev - Off the cuff, no idea on the trait pre-set thingy.
11. Sapience reads from HoarseDev: We are looking into essence components. We have seen that thread on essence crafting in the forums, which is proof that devs do read what player write, so please continue to write, make suggestions, and provide feedback. Even if they don’t comment directly on a thread, they are reading them.
    Sapience comments that they're sliding past the 9 minute mark of the run, and looking pretty good. He thinks these will run 25-30 minutes based on Bullroarer test runs. He thinks there will be seconds between times made by the different servers, closer than the TTHTI runs.
12. Does the timer for these runs count seconds in the thousandths?
    Sapience - No, whole seconds. That may not be such a terrible idea if things get really tight. Falling and swimming and such little things are worth considering [when planning a route - Moochi].
13. Question about fixes to swan pets?
    Sapience - Maybe if he had a better understanding of the question.
    HoarseDev - Swan pets are in the hands of the art team at the moment.
14. Question about new 3 and 6 man instances.
    Sapience - The broader answer is that when they say raids they mean group instances. Group content is not out of the question, but what we consider traditional raids and traditional instance clusters pretty much falls under Rowan's comments. They've been saying for a year that there are no raids or that type of content in the roadmap in the foreseeable future or planned. Rewording the question will not change the answer. He's sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It is not new news.
15. Some more information on swan pets. HoarseDev asked DEViled_Egg about the changes [Erika Ng, System Designer - Moochi]. According to them, new animations have been hooked up for the swan pets. They now waddle when walking and run whilst flapping if you run.
16. Question about the problem on Landroval with moving stuff around in the vault.
    Sapience - The team is looking at it; were working on it earlier today. Not sure if they cleared it up, there were a couple of other issues that he knows they cleared up. Problems with "myaccount" pages that may or may not have been related. He's not in the database end of the biz or the building, but he knows the myaccount stuff was clear up and they were investigating the Landroval storage stuff.
17. What does it take to create and test a raid.
    Sapience - A huge amount of time and resources. It takes animators, it takes artists, it takes QA, it takes play teams, it takes repeated play testing, it takes huge and massive amounts of tech to get all hooked up and tested out. It is incredibly time consuming, most people would be shocked at how time consuming it really is.
18. Question about raids.
    Sapience - Repeated answer. The answer is in Rowan's producer's letters, and in the past statements he's laid out a very clear path for LotRO and those are not part of the plan. It really is that simple.
19. Is the answer about time consuming true about any piece of game?
    Sapience - Some things take more time than others. The question was "what does it take to make a raid."
    HoarseDev - Raids are an order of magnitude larger and are vastly more risky than anything else. They are definitely on a level all their own
    Sapience - He wants to be really clear on this; that is not why they are not doing them. He doesn't want anyone to conflate the question and the answer to an unrelated question.
20. So if not raids, what about big battles?
    Sapience - There was a mention of a big battle in Rowan's producer's letter, so that’s still floating out there as a possibility. There are also some changes coming to big battles; a few little tweaks he thinks can already be tested on Bullroarer, which he expects to be open again on Thursday, in a couple of days.
    Sapience notices, at nearly 21 minutes into the run, that run is nearing completion, and that it will be done in far less time that he had thought. He had thought that 25 minutes would be a good run, but this will beat that expectation.
    Team Eldar arrives at the gates of Caras Galadhon with an official time of 22:17, faster than either of the Bullroarer test runs. He thinks this is a very quick time. Photos are taken.
21. Has Turbine ever thought about making a character boost all the way from level 1 to level 95 and have it cost a thousand dollars?
    Sapience - Not that he's aware of. They've talked about various level boosts. They ended up at level 50 because they felt that was a good place. It puts characters at an iconic moment right at the gates of Moria. To the best of his knowledge, a higher auto-level is not currently in the offing.
22. Sapience talks about the components of the OriginPC computer he's using and the settings he uses. Watch the video from the 27 minute mark if you'd like the details on this.
23. What streaming software is he using.
    XSplit Broadcaster.
24. If the devs and Rowan see that more and more of the player population want raids as endgame content, will they try their best to satisfy them?
    Sapience - Their decision is based on nears 8 years of data, as far as what players do and don’t do, so they focus primarily on what players do. Should somehow those numbers radically change, he's sure they would change direction. But they haven't, so that was a key factor in deciding.
    HoarseDev - Correct, they have to weigh everything on the table and right now they are looking at a heaping pile of different things.
25. How was the first run?
    Sapience - The first run was really good. They did a really great job getting him through alive. He thinks there was only one point where he was a little worried something bad was going to happen. The run was very good; he thinks it will be a high bar for other servers.
26. Question about a small game upgrade that would allow people to make Hobnanigans teams, sign people up, and have overhead team titles sort of like a sport kinship.
    Sapience - Personally he thinks it’s a cool idea, but calling it a small upgrade is a bit misleading and understates the amount of work involved. There's not anything small about that, it’s pretty much a whole new system, which is never a small task.
    Sapience decides to take his dwarf on a run around some parts of Lothlorien to show off how great it looks
27. Based on the short duration of the runs, is he going to consider doing two runs per day?
    Sapience - If they hover around 20-25 minutes, yeah, he probably will. Mulls about perhaps doing an earlier one at 2-2:30 like this one, and a later one at 5:00, perhaps. He'll do a couple more and see how it goes. Thinks that’s reasonable to do a couple a day if they stay this short.
28. Further comments on the earlier Hobnanigans question
    HoarseDev - It depends on how much traction Hobnanigans gets.
    Sapience - So whether we get a lot of updates, additions, and tweaks to Hobnanigans is going to be dependent on how much it gets used. If people get disinterested in it, then it probably won't get the level of attention required to create an eSport based around it.
29. Question about a bug
    HoarseDev - Are there bugs submitted on the issue?
    Sapience - Sometimes questions about bugs are best answered with the question "Did you file a bug report?" because not all bugs are kept in all staff's heads.
30. Bare-chested dwarf on next run?
    No, he likes his Hauberk of the Mithril Guard. It is one of the old promo items he's trying to get new codes for, to make them possible to award again, through twitch, twitter, Facebook, and ExtraLife. Cloak of the Dark Halls and Cloak of the Raven Friend are a couple he already has in the works. Steed of the First Marshall he has request in for. The Celebratory title, more codes for that coming up. He's looking for more and more ways to make these available to us. Someone mentions housing items Colourful Songbird and Pesky Dormouse; he likes those a lot and is making a note about them.
    HoarseDev leaves the text chat, saying he will look into the wall items not being wall items.
31. Question about ever seeing area locks again, like reputation locks and one-shotters.
    He can't speak to forever or ever or never questions because those are really long time frames, and everything is subject to change. Blocking regions off from players who just want to explore is killing a playstyle that there really isn’t a problem with. He thinks that's why they unlocked them, so we wouldn't have to grind just to go to a place. That could change in the future, but that was the reason behind unlocking most of Lothlorien. One still has to get reputation to enter Caras Galadhon, but just to enter the region, no.
    Sapience decides to head to Rivendell; it’s one of the places he likes.
32. Question about integrating streamers into the community more.
    Streaming is pretty new; they keep track of who is streaming. How we stream, what we stream, how often we stream. He knows some of us stream from time to time; they've had some conversations about integrating them a little more. For Turbine it is about making people aware that LotRO streams are happening and that information may be had by watching them.
33. Any more hair styles or beard styles.
    Nothing the he is aware of, nothing currently planned. [I assume bear pelts are an exception to this - Moochi]
34. Does he feel like he's being stalked with all these people following him?
    No, he thinks it’s funny. It reminds him of the Beatles' "Help" movie.
35. Has he ever fallen into the water in Rivendell.
    Yes he has. More than once. Often enough to know which way to swim to get out without thinking about it.
36. Question about setting servers as the recommend server in the launcher.
    Recommended servers are only changed when Turbine pushes game updates, not during regular maintenances. Update 14 is the next time they would be able to do that.
37. Stream every day?
    No sure he can do that, time wise. Might be a way to get in the Moria runs a little quicker, one every day of the week.
    Sapience mentions Galuhad who's streaming for ExtraLife, trying to level from 1 to 95 in 100 hours of playtime. He's well on the way to the goal of $1000.
38. Question about seeing Amarthiel runs in the moors again
    Not Amarthiel in particular, for lore reasons, but similar things are not impossible. No timelines on that. Conversations have been had, not saying just what at this time.
39. Questions about doing live "radio shows" instead or in addition to streaming.
    Not a terrible idea. He's not necessarily opposed, but thinks it might be less interesting, and thinks streaming in-game is a great way to interact with players on their servers.
40. Hire a documentary crew to follow and stream everything for a year?
    Funny idea, but would be incredibly boring to always watch him leaving for meeting and the camera stopping at the door cause we cannot sit in on those.
    Sapience mentions his ExtraLife has broken $6k milestone and is well on its way to the $100K goal. There was a deal that when 6K has hit, a new reward would be released. The Celebratory code was added at 7K. Many more cool things ahead including some secret items that are expected to make people quite happy.
    Sapience talks about the ExtraLife tattoo that he may be getting. He's willing to withstand the pain due to the fact that the money is going to help sick kids. No, it’s not going on his forehead. He's already receiving input at home for just agreeing to a tattoo at all.
41. What does Sapience like most about Update 14?
    The essence system is very cool. And his secret things. [Sapience chuckles] We cannot imagine how hard it is for him to keep quiet about what they are. They're not earth-shatteringly game-breaking top-secret, but he wants to wait and reveal them at the right time, and it’s really hard to keep them quiet.
42. Bare-chested humans because of Beornings.
    Good suggestion. He'll pass it along.
43. Can we see pictures of the Steed of the First Marshal?
    Shown in-game. Picture on his ExtraLife goal page, as well.
    Sapience adds that should the $100K goat be met, Jeremy Adams, ExtraLife co-founder, will get the same tattoo as Sapience. Jeremy's wife may override that decision. Sapience is getting his regardless. It will be his first tattoo.
44. Why is there a 1337 option on his ExtraLife.
    1337 is LEET
45. Question about Hobnanigans tokens
    The idea is to save up the tokens, and continue to work towards your goals when it’s open. Save them.
46. When will Bullroarer be back up?
    Thursday or Friday.
47. Will we see the treasure hunt again this year?
    More than likely, yes.
48. Will Hobnanigans tokens become bound or go into wallet?
    He doesn't know, but will ask. If we want them to be handled differently, should post in the suggestions forum.
49. Can players raise money for ExtraLife?
    Absolutely! By all means, jump right in! Go to ExtraLife.org and sign up and register. If you want to join Team Turbine you can do that too, and you can raise money on your own. He thinks Team Turbine in currently in 3rd or 4th place overall in terms of funds raised. Galuhad is a member of Team Turbine and is playing for Boston Children's Hospital, which he thinks is awesome. But it’s not restricted to Turbine employees; they think it’s great when fans join.
50. Question about balance in the moors in regards to U14
    Balance is always being considered and looked at, not just in the moors, but everywhere. He'd be more surprised to hear that they were not than to hear that they were. Broadly speaking, balance is an ongoing challenge which, to some greater or lesser extent, is addressed every update.
51. Any changes to mounted combat on the horizon?
    None that he's aware of at the moment.
52. Sapience gives us a look at the Steed of the Red Dawn, which he's also seeking to get a code for by which to share it. It’s the mount he was riding at Weatherstock. To the best of his knowledge, no associated warsteed package comes with this, just the regular mount.
53. Question about get warsteed gear and accessories made dye-able. [The rear saddle bags items - Frick]
    He's going to pass that request along. That request has been made a few times. Will nudge a bit.
    Sapience decides it’s time to wrap today's run up. Congratulations to Eldar, the current leader! In addition to the upcoming SHIELD runs, we can expect a dev tour livestream of Update 14 shortly before it goes live, and another dev roundtable probably scheduled sometime after Update 14, to get U14 feedback and to let us know what’s coming for U15 afterwards.

[bobbylobs]

Thx Runesi,

I will repost my last post here to continue the discussion.

here is the main issue with what this thread has become. I quote Min, not to single them out, but because it's a representative post that highlights the issue I'm addressing.



The argument ignores that virtually every update prior to 11 had the content in question and it was not widely utilized. It would be more accurate to say that it is unlikely that an 8 year old, who has not played in any meaningful way with the toys they have had since birth will suddenly find interest in them at 16.



I think anyone who has been paying attention knew this long ago. Our message has been very clear for more than a year that classic raids and clusters were not coming.

In the future, as relates to these events, the question on raids will be passed. If you'd like to continue the discussion please feel free to use the raids forum, but let's keep this thread clear as it will no longer be a topic addressed in these runs.

Are you surprised by how many people are continually asking about this topic considering hardly anyone (apparently) uses it?

I mean it is by far and away the single most discussed topic on these forums, yet apparently no-one plays them, does that mean that the festivals/concerts/cosmetic pets are used even less? As they make up a very small proportion of what is discussed here compared to how many people want raids back.

Just go check out the new producers thread and see how many people want raids back compared to wanting other things in game.

[Runesi_EU]

Apart from the lack any interesting end game (and yes, I'm aware that this is subjective) I wonder how the knowledge that will be no new Raids or traditional instance cluster in the foreseeable future affects potential new players decision to join LotRO?

For me at least I know Turbine would get a more constant stream of money out of me if I had stuff that I wanted to do at cap, rather than the current situation where I only really spend anything to see the new updates before stopping and awaiting the next one.

[Eruadarion]

I think anyone who has been paying attention knew this long ago. Our message has been very clear for more than a year that classic raids and clusters were not coming.

Sorry Mr. Heaton but "your message" was not clear and I am quite sure that you know that. In fact you intentionally refused giving a clear answer on this topic for many many month (from my point of view). From a business perspective, I understand that it's hard to be honest with your customers when it comes to admitting that a certain feature of a product simply will not come back ever again. Still, I strongly disagree with your statement that your message has been that clear.

The questions concerning new raids appeared the first time when EBs were released (not even 1 year ago) and we were told multiple times that it is verly likely that BOTH features (EBs and classic raids) will be developed in the future.
You, Mr. Heaton, stated multiple times that "no raids are planned for HD" but ignored the questions if that means no raids at the release of HD or no new raids for the whole expansion cycle.
Months later we finally got a statement that "no new raids are planned for 2014", but once again the following questions concering "WHEN? 2015? 2016? EVER?" were not answered.
Now you are still don't say "never ever again" which I can understand because never say never but finally your statement is clearer that it ever was.

Seems like we are done here. That's okay. All our optimism is finally gone. Obviously the final nail was put in the coffin quite some time ago... Please just don't pretend you were always totally honest with us.

[Sapience]

Are you surprised by how many people are continually asking about this topic considering hardly anyone (apparently) uses it?

I mean it is by far and away the single most discussed topic on these forums, yet apparently no-one plays them, does that mean that the festivals/concerts/cosmetic pets are used even less? As they make up a very small proportion of what is discussed here compared to how many people want raids back.

Just go check out the new producers thread and see how many people want raids back compared to wanting other things in game.

Not even a tiny bit. Because, and I'll be blunt, honest, and deal only in facts here (you can do with that as you wish) to make it clear.

Raiders comprise the smallest, by far, group in our game. PvMP players are far larger and even they are small. in fact together the two groups wouldn't comprise 10% of the total player base and never have (this is important. it's not a new thing, it's a long standing historical fact).

Forum posters comprise a slightly larger group than the combined group of PvMP and Raiders. However, Raiders and PvMP players make up the overwhelming majority of forum posters (More than half. Though raiders are the smaller group of the two (PvMP/Raiders)). So you have a tiny group, inside a small group that is grossly disproportionately represented on the forums.

I fully appreciate and understand you won't believe a word of this. That's perfectly fine. It doesn't change the facts of the matter.

[BangoTwinkletoes]

It's been clear to me for a while now that Turbine neither had the plan to, nor the people with the skills & capability to deliver new traditional raids or instance clusters. This announcement just confirms it, though it has been interesting to juxtapose this against a lot of the feedback in this thread - https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-what-you-hate

However, and I'm going to word this very carefully - it's my opinion that Turbine don't take any joy from making this announcement as it's pretty much a recognition of the failure of the strategy of the previous producer that they've had to scale back on the scope of the game, especially when most AAA MMOs are still putting out traditional group content of this type.

All in all a bit sad really when one looks back on where the game once was back in the early days - Rift, Carn Dum, Helegrod and then the Moria instances. All of them were classics and some of the best group content one will find in any MMO. Here's hoping that Turbine will put in place better facilities to encourage LOTRO players to enjoy the older content - such as a modern and effective group finder.

[Lothirieth]

Raiders comprise the smallest, by far, group in our game. PvMP players are far larger and even they are small. in fact together the two groups wouldn't comprise 10% of the total player base and never have (this is important. it's not a new thing, it's a long standing historical fact).

Could you please shed light on how you all at Turbine define "raider" please? Because what you are saying in no way reflects what my server was like up through at least SoM, maybe ToO. When I think of all the kins that existed and all those people doing group content together, even the RPers on an RP server.. it just does not compute at all. This is why people keep questioning how Turbine defines a "raider".

[ertr]

Not even a tiny bit. Because, and I'll be blunt, honest, and deal only in facts here (you can do with that as you wish) to make it clear.

Raiders comprise the smallest, by far, group in our game. PvMP players are far larger and even they are small. in fact together the two groups wouldn't comprise 10% of the total player base and never have (this is important. it's not a new thing, it's a long standing historical fact).

Forum posters comprise a slightly larger group than the combined group of PvMP and Raiders. However, Raiders and PvMP players make up the overwhelming majority of forum posters (More than half. Though raiders are the smaller group of the two (PvMP/Raiders)). So you have a tiny group, inside a small group that is grossly disproportionately represented on the forums.

I fully appreciate and understand you won't believe a word of this. That's perfectly fine. It doesn't change the facts of the matter.

So lets assume that you are indeed correct and raiders only make up a small percentage of the total population, and that this has been the case for a very long time. That however raises a new question.

The Mines of Moria expansion included raids. It was apparently considered worthwhile to create them at that time, despite raiders only being a small part of the population
The Siege of Mirkwood expansion included a raid. It was apparently considered worthwhile to create them at that time, despite raiders only being a small part of the population
The Rise of Isengard expansion included raids It was apparently considered worthwhile to create them at that time, despite raiders only being a small part of the population
The Riders of Rohan expansions included raids. It was apparently considered worthwhile to create them at that time, despite raiders only being a small part of the population.
The Helm's Deep expansion did not include raids. Now it was apparently not considered worthwhile to create them.

My question is very simple: Given that the numbers of raiders have always remained fairly constant as a (small) percentage of the population, what changed between Riders of Rohan and Helm's Deep that prompted the decision to not develop any more raids?

[Bendin]

It's been clear to me for a while now that Turbine neither had the plan to, nor the people with the skills & capability to deliver new traditional raids or instance clusters. This announcement just confirms it, though it has been interesting to juxtapose this against a lot of the feedback in this thread - https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-what-you-hate

However, and I'm going to word this very carefully - it's my opinion that Turbine don't take any joy from making this announcement as it's pretty much a recognition of the failure of the strategy of the previous producer that they've had to scale back on the scope of the game, especially when most AAA MMOs are still putting out traditional group content of this type.

All in all a bit sad really when one looks back on where the game once was back in the early days - Rift, Carn Dum, Helegrod and then the Moria instances. All of them were classics and some of the best group content one will find in any MMO. Here's hoping that Turbine will put in place better facilities to encourage LOTRO players to enjoy the older content - such as a modern and effective group finder.

sadly true, I think a fair number of people had given up on LOTRO when it became glaringly obvious they couldn't/wouldn't produce something as basic to mmo core design as viable group content. The introduction and apparent interest in Malphunktion's thread created some hope and interest for some that they had decided to design an mmo again. But taken in concert with the thread this discussion springs from; along with a deafening silence from MalP concerning the two most disliked items(LI's ,lack of traditional group endgame), the PR blip lasted less than a day. Going forward huge shrews and evil tree pets are obviously the golden path to increased market share for an mmo.

[bobbylobs]

Not even a tiny bit. Because, and I'll be blunt, honest, and deal only in facts here (you can do with that as you wish) to make it clear.

Raiders comprise the smallest, by far, group in our game. PvMP players are far larger and even they are small. in fact together the two groups wouldn't comprise 10% of the total player base and never have (this is important. it's not a new thing, it's a long standing historical fact).

Forum posters comprise a slightly larger group than the combined group of PvMP and Raiders. However, Raiders and PvMP players make up the overwhelming majority of forum posters (More than half. Though raiders are the smaller group of the two (PvMP/Raiders)). So you have a tiny group, inside a small group that is grossly disproportionately represented on the forums.

I fully appreciate and understand you won't believe a word of this. That's perfectly fine. It doesn't change the facts of the matter.

Its not so much I dont believe it, I am just confused is all, as only a few days ago you posted this

"In fact it happens enough that a number of players (some quite well known) along with both the 2013 and 2014 players council have requested we tighten up and clarify the community guidelines (as we did in 2013 based on council feedback that changed significant portions of the wording), and tighten the enforcement and the removal of threads and posts that are inviolation to further reinforce that those behaviors are unacceptable. A pending suggestion is to reduce the number of allowable 'strikes' from 10. So it's clear to us that the desire of the larger community is for more and more consistent moderation of problematic posts and posters."


where you clearly state that a number of players and the player councils of this year and last which is what a few dozen people are "the larger community" , seems very contradictory to me, when people post on forums asking for tighter moderating it is "the larger community" but when hundreds of people post on the exact same forum for raiding it is now somehow a minority again, thats what I dont quite understand, how that keeps shifting.

regards

Bobbylobs

[Vulcan583]

I saw that a 3 man is coming with U14. Is it just a daily quest for the new faction that happens to require 3 people? Or is it a repeatable instance that you join from the Instance join panel?

[Beaniemooch]

Could you please shed light on how you all at Turbine define "raider" please? Because what you are saying in no way reflects what my server was like up through at least SoM, maybe ToO. When I think of all the kins that existed and all those people doing group content together, even the RPers on an RP server.. it just does not compute at all. This is why people keep questioning how Turbine defines a "raider".

I would also like to know this information, because to me it's at the crux of the matter.

Is a raider somebody that:
1. Has done a raid even once?
2. Does a raid once a month?
3. Does a raid once a week?
4. Spends 4+ hours a week in a traditional 12-man classic raid?

Does it take into account I have 14 characters on one of my 3 accounts, only 4 at level cap, and all created to serve the 1 that raids? By that token I would be >10%, yet 100% of my focus is raiding and PvMP.

[Sapience]

Its not so much I dont believe it, I am just confused is all, as only a few days ago you posted this

"In fact it happens enough that a number of players (some quite well known) along with both the 2013 and 2014 players council have requested we tighten up and clarify the community guidelines (as we did in 2013 based on council feedback that changed significant portions of the wording), and tighten the enforcement and the removal of threads and posts that are in violation to further reinforce that those behaviors are unacceptable. A pending suggestion is to reduce the number of allowable 'strikes' from 10. So it's clear to us that the desire of the larger community is for more and more consistent moderation of problematic posts and posters."


where you clearly state that a number of players and the player councils of this year and last which is what a few dozen people are "the larger community" , seems very contradictory to me, when people post on forums asking for tighter moderating it is "the larger community" but when hundreds of people post on the exact same forum for raiding it is now somehow a minority again, thats what I dont quite understand, how that keeps shifting.

regards

Bobbylobs

Because you are taking two comments out of context and trying to smoosh them together. In the example you gave I was referencing the forums specifically. So my comment is exclusive to the forums. Community guidelines have 0 impact on players who do not participate in the forums, so it obviously would not apply to them. It is clear that the majority of forum posters (the larger community) want things to improve on the forums and want to better understand what is and is not allowable. You'll also notice I siad community(those who engage in the forums, facebook, twitter, etc) and not playerbase(everyone, regardless of whether the engage in the forums, Facebook, Twitter, etc - which is the overwhelming majority). I used community in this sense because I have heard the same feedback about the forums through multiple sources (FB, Twitter, etc).

You'll also notice in my comments about forum posters being a minority but raiders/pvmp being a majority in that group I specifically said Forum poster. Meaning speaking elusively about those who post on the forums.

Nothing is shifting, I gave straight information about specific segments of the player base and how they relate to each other in rough terms.

This may help

PLAYERBASE (All ACTIVE Players)

• COMMUNITY (Subset of the PLAYERBASE using official social media and official forums)
  
  • FORUM POSTERS (Subset of the COMMUNITY. Specifically referring to those who post to the forums)

I saw that a 3 man is coming with U14. Is it just a daily quest for the new faction that happens to require 3 people? Or is it a repeatable instance that you join from the Instance join panel?

It's a repeatable 3 man instance. But I would be hesitant to refer to it as a classic or traditional 3 man. Difficulty wise, probably on par but rewards wise no. And before you ask, because 3 player groups are the most common.

[Hordvin]

So lets assume that you are indeed correct and raiders only make up a small percentage of the total population, and that this has been the case for a very long time. That however raises a new question.

The Mines of Moria expansion included raids. It was apparently considered worthwhile to create them at that time, despite raiders only being a small part of the population
The Siege of Mirkwood expansion included a raid. It was apparently considered worthwhile to create them at that time, despite raiders only being a small part of the population
The Rise of Isengard expansion included raids It was apparently considered worthwhile to create them at that time, despite raiders only being a small part of the population
The Riders of Rohan expansions included raids. It was apparently considered worthwhile to create them at that time, despite raiders only being a small part of the population.
The Helm's Deep expansion did not include raids. Now it was apparently not considered worthwhile to create them.

My question is very simple: Given that the numbers of raiders have always remained fairly constant as a (small) percentage of the population, what changed between Riders of Rohan and Helm's Deep that prompted the decision to not develop any more raids?

You will not get an answer on this. What we do not know (an I have seen many discussions in the communitiy ending with no result) at which point you are considered to be a "Raider" by turbine. My guess is that playing Orthanc once a month is not counting as Raider for Turbine. Maybe they are just counting the players who managed T2HM on a schedule.

And I know from talking to some old "pro" Raiders on my Server that it began with Orthanc where they became unhappy. They were more like Barad Guldur "old school" 4 hours of play. And the last Raids in Erebor were hardly raids as many wanted. So the Raiding Community was shrinking since Rise of Isengard in my opinion.

[Capt.Hunor]

Sorry, but to say that raiders only make up a small percentage of the total population is not true. Sorry Sapience but that is an old and bad song,
that Turbine always said, but anyway they made Raids and Group Instances in Moria and after.

EVERYBODY is waiting of Raids and Group instances, you can count the questions regarding this in the many TTHTI Chat protocols.
But the last word has the active player statistics that nobody can hide. No instances = No players, No VIP subcriptions, No Shop payments.

Anyway, is just amazing to hear that a MMO Game development will have no Instances or Raids, ever....

[Sapience]

Sorry, but to say that raiders only make up a small percentage of the total population is not true. Sorry Sapience but that is an old and bad song,
that Turbine always said, but anyway they made Raids and Group Instances in Moria and after.

I'm sorry you have chosen not to believe it. I have been very honest and up front. It is 100% true. Always has been. Choosing not to believe it doesn't alter that fact.

I'm really sorry guys, but it is what it is. Since I've laid out the facts in the most honest way possible and you aren't willing to hear them or believe them there is really no point in our continuing to address the topic.

[DanteIL]

Even if Forum posters are only a "small" segment of the playerbase (and players who regularly run instances/raids [or PvMP] a smaller segment of that), I wonder if it would be fair to say that the forum posters are probably the most engaged segment of the playerbase. That is, in spite of being relatively small in numbers, players who give feedback (and are 'vocal') on the forums are probably some of the most committed and passionate (with some of that passion translating to $$? I don't know). Shouldn't that passion and engagement count for something? This possibility is what disturbs me about focusing on simple raw percentages as justification for this or that decision, because they cannot tell the whole picture. I am not a "raider" (whatever that means) but I do enjoy the option of being able to group up and run through interesting and challenging content on occasion. Perhaps I do this too seldom to 'count.' Unfortunately, LOTRO doesn't seem to be do anything right now (such as implementing a functional group finder) to encourage this, now or in the future.

[bobbylobs]

Because you are taking two comments out of context and trying to smoosh them together. In the example you gave I was referencing the forums specifically. So my comment is exclusive to the forums. Community guidelines have 0 impact on players who do not participate in the forums, so it obviously would not apply to them. It is clear that the majority of forum posters (the larger community) want things to improve on the forums and want to better understand what is and is not allowable. You'll also notice I siad community(those who engage in the forums, facebook, twitter, etc) and not playerbase(everyone, regardless of whether the engage in the forums, Facebook, Twitter, etc - which is the overwhelming majority). I used community in this sense because I have heard the same feedback about the forums through multiple sources (FB, Twitter, etc).

You'll also notice in my comments about forum posters being a minority but raiders/pvmp being a majority in that group I specifically said Forum poster. Meaning speaking elusively about those who post on the forums.

Nothing is shifting, I gave straight information about specific segments of the player base and how they relate to each other in rough terms.

This may help

PLAYERBASE (All ACTIVE Players)

• COMMUNITY (Subset of the PLAYERBASE using official social media and official forums)
  
  • FORUM POSTERS (Subset of the COMMUNITY. Specifically referring to those who post to the forums)

It doesnt matter where you look, here, in game, other lotro forums, facebook, twitter, everywhere, the vast overwhelming thing that is asked about is when are raids coming back? Unless you have a different forum, facebook, twitter feed that we cant see, there really is no argument, nothing is being asked about more than new raids. And shutting down every thread that asks about this subject isnt going to help, you (as in turbine you) even asked what they want from this game with the new producers thread and guess what was overwhelming in being asked for?

So if you have legions of people asking about other things other than raiding where are they asking? its not on facebook or twitter or anywhere else, so unless you are recieving 1000s of PMs from people saying they want tighter forum moderation, I dont see this "larger community" you talk of, I dont see people asking in my kin or global or on here for tighter moderation (bar the odd one or two), I dont see people asking on facebook or twitter for tighter moderation, yet I see 100s of request from those sources for raids, so where does this "larger community" come from? every single official and non official lotro communication medium is massively leaning towards more raids over tighter forum moderation.

[Capt.Hunor]

I don't said that I don't belive YOU.
I said "to say that raiders only make up a small percentage of the total population is not true" because Turbine has
always said this, even before Moria, if you can remember the old discussions about the Radiance-System.
The Radiance-System was removed although they said, the Raider are just a small percentage of the total population,
but nobody said because of the a small percentage of the total population, the development of Raids will be also stopped.
Until today...

So please forgive me if I not trust in such a story like "we are a small percentage of the total population".

[BangoTwinkletoes]

I'm sorry you have chosen not to believe it. I have been very honest and up front. It is 100% true. Always has been. Choosing not to believe it doesn't alter that fact.

I'm really sorry guys, but it is what it is. Since I've laid out the facts in the most honest way possible and you aren't willing to hear them or believe them there is really no point in our continuing to address the topic.

It may help move the discussion forward if Turbine are able to decompose the statistic in question into the following:

- Those who run group content - so small & normal fellowships, whether open world or instanced, and

- Those who run raid content

I have a hunch that the former is significantly greater than the latter, however this standardisation around the term "raiders" as a catch all (which is a commonly used synonym by many on the forum) is perhaps causing some of the consternation around % of playerbase etc.

[anthonyx]

Raiders comprise the smallest, by far, group in our game. PvMP players are far larger and even they are small. in fact together the two groups wouldn't comprise 10% of the total player base and never have (this is important. it's not a new thing, it's a long standing historical fact).

Wow.. I have always thought that the hobby group was a true minority. The silent kind. But I guess hobbits that fish are not the smallest groups any longer! I will mention this in next months meeting (I am the vice president) maybe we can kick a few out so we can regain that title!!!!

[Aegorathir]

Shame about the beautiful game. Bye bye guys.

[Vulcwen]

Not even a tiny bit. Because, and I'll be blunt, honest, and deal only in facts here (you can do with that as you wish) to make it clear.

Raiders comprise the smallest, by far, group in our game. PvMP players are far larger and even they are small. in fact together the two groups wouldn't comprise 10% of the total player base and never have (this is important. it's not a new thing, it's a long standing historical fact).

Forum posters comprise a slightly larger group than the combined group of PvMP and Raiders. However, Raiders and PvMP players make up the overwhelming majority of forum posters (More than half. Though raiders are the smaller group of the two (PvMP/Raiders)). So you have a tiny group, inside a small group that is grossly disproportionately represented on the forums.

I fully appreciate and understand you won't believe a word of this. That's perfectly fine. It doesn't change the facts of the matter.

Now I wonder another thing, which percentage of the playerbase is at level-cap on at least one of his/her toons?
I personally expect it to be lower than 20%, just this might be lower than 10% already.. but I don't know that data, hence why I ask.

Than, which percentage of the level-capped playerbase belongs to the "raider" group?
This is interesting, as it might mean this group can be increased/lowered depending on how long the way to access the content is.

[Skirata]

I don´t think you can measure the importance of challenging endgame in blunt numbers.
In my opinion its the desire to get yourself prepared for hard content whats keeps people playing not actually doing it.
Hytbold for example, people build the whole city just to get geared up for erebor raid, if only a small number actually did it than thats the way it is.
But people need a goal they can look forward to, to keep motivation going.

Now we get Dol Amroth gear and essences grind with nothing that requires it and a new level cap announced for the end of this Year.

Just take look at the empty servers thats a lot more people missing than an fraction of 10%