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  1. #1

    VT-20s inc heal debuff.

    how is this playing out currently on BR? -50% for 20s seems a bit harsh considering how many people play BA's.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by PureEvil-Lotro View Post
    how is this playing out currently on BR? -50% for 20s seems a bit harsh considering how many people play BA's.
    Improved blight together with that (so DF + BA + 1 more DPS following rat) --> raid v raid fights will be very short and one-sided :P

  3. #3
    On my server it's always our 6-12 vs their 12-24... It's already very one-sided. But yeah, I'm sure a perma -50% inc healing debuff is just what we need! Also, consider raising overall creep damage & morale.
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  4. #4
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    Been waiting to roll over battlemages and lolmasters for few years now. Finally tables will turn!

  5. #5
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    Did not try RvR on BR but solo its just like having perma-DS on a target. Fights are short and brutally quick against the vast majority of classes solo.

    To be honest playing my BA even now just feels far too easy. Zero challenge left for me on creepside and I guess U14 will keep me playing freep full time

    Shumzuda R11 Blackarrow - Shumheals R6 Defiler - Shumzud R6 Warg Beardhug R9 Champion - Majeika R8 LM - Chuffnel Burglar
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Galadhol View Post
    Been waiting to roll over battlemages and lolmasters for few years now. Finally tables will turn!
    Can't tell if serious.
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  7. #7
    Its way too high and way too long. I think turbine has forgoten the CD on VT. No need to make it, arguably, the best heal debuff ingame

    BA's certainlty dont need a buff, VT doubly so
    Last edited by notacavetroll; Jun 19 2014 at 12:56 AM.

  8. #8
    Assuming, like most creep heal debuffs, it stacks with blight and DS... how do you think it will play out?
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  9. #9
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    I play a BA and i always thought that a -inc debuff was never a bad idea
    I see ppl complain about it when it goes on VT but i dont know what they have in mind
    Maybe they added it cause freep healing might go to heavens,well that high? i dont know but im sure there is food for thought

    MY opinion tho it should be that it should never stack with other healing debuff from the reavers
    OR making Revenge 50% gated to use and apply this debuff like DS works would be better, the duration is supposed to be ok.
    Good BAs can have every 20s such debuff.

    But as i said before we should wait untill all freep classes changes come to the table lets not be hasty. Im sure this change is the only change BA get again

    [Tangaar Captain R 7][Barukhazad Minstrel R 9]

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangaar View Post
    I play a BA and i always thought that a -inc debuff was never a bad idea
    I see ppl complain about it when it goes on VT but i dont know what they have in mind
    Maybe they added it cause freep healing might go to heavens,well that high? i dont know but im sure there is food for thought

    MY opinion tho it should be that it should never stack with other healing debuff from the reavers
    OR making Revenge 50% gated to use and apply this debuff like DS works would be better, the duration is supposed to be ok.
    Good BAs can have every 20s such debuff.

    But as i said before we should wait untill all freep classes changes come to the table lets not be hasty. Im sure this change is the only change BA get again
    Wait. Are you saying that a permanent -50% inc healing debuff is not OP on an entirely new level?
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Wait. Are you saying that a permanent -50% inc healing debuff is not OP on an entirely new level?
    DId i say that?Dont put words in my mouth

    But dont ignore the fact that freep classes are getting tree changes so we cant know for sure if the 50% is op or not. And as i said it should NOT stack with the other debuffs
    Last edited by Tangaar; Jun 20 2014 at 04:09 AM.

    [Tangaar Captain R 7][Barukhazad Minstrel R 9]

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangaar View Post
    DId i say that?Dont put words in my mouth

    But dont ignore the fact that freep classes are getting tree changes so we cant know for sure if the 50% is op or not. And as i said it should stack with the other debuffs
    I'm just asking... No need to be so harsh.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangaar View Post
    Maybe they added it cause freep healing might go to heavens,well that high? i dont know but im sure there is food for thought
    But as i said before we should wait untill all freep classes changes come to the table lets not be hasty. Im sure this change is the only change BA get again
    This is a fair point. I think that the only sudden swing in balance on the horizon is implementing essences on PvMP armour sets but Jinjaah was saying U15 for that. The new class traits are unlikely to bring anything gamebreaking that will make it through to live.

    A ranged inc- heal debuff with no health threshold should not be as powerful as a melee inc- heal debuff that is gated below -50% morale. I think that a far better solution would be to put it on a skill that is not one of our big hitters. How about a tiering up debuff on strong pull that increases a 5% debuff for each attack up to 15%?
    Last edited by Shumzuda; Jun 19 2014 at 07:30 AM.

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I'm just asking... No need to be so harsh.
    Im not getting harsh ;p just supporting the fact that BA need such a debuff, not really sure till i see all changes for its potency

    Quote Originally Posted by Shumzuda View Post
    This is a fair point. I think that the only sudden swing in balance on the horizon is implementing essences on PvMP armour sets but Jinjaah was saying U15 for that. The new class traits are unlikely to bring anything gamebreaking that will make it through to live.

    A ranged inc- heal debuff with no health threshold should not be as powerful as a melee inc- heal debuff that is gated below -50% morale. I think that a far better solution would be to put it on a skill that is not one of our big hitters. How about a tiering up debuff on strong pull that increases a 5% debuff for each attack up to 15%?
    I strongly suggest getting revenge at 50% gated and applying the debuff there

    [Tangaar Captain R 7][Barukhazad Minstrel R 9]

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Tangaar View Post
    Maybe they added it cause freep healing might go to heavens,well that high? i dont know but im sure there is food for thought
    Like they know what they are doing. They just make random changes each update and wait and see what kind of response it gets. Very rarely do turbine make a calculated change in pvp. Their approach to it isn't as thoughtful as most think it is. Even if freep healing did go that high, 50% is just silly. Hell, 50% for 6 seconds on a range skill (way better than melle in this case) that always hits is crazy... 20 seconds is just ########

    Also, BAs are practically walking VT's. The overall effectiveness of that class relies so much on that 1 skill that was once rank gated on a 5 min cd. Continuing to buff it again and again and again just makes the simplest class in the game even more simpler with each update

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangaar View Post
    I strongly suggest getting revenge at 50% gated and applying the debuff there
    Revenge for me is a 'finisher' skill - no need to make it like a ranged version of DS.

    An inc- heal debuff should require the BA to use different skills to a normal dps rotation. That is why I like strong bow tiering.

    Quote Originally Posted by notacavetroll View Post
    Continuing to buff it again and again and again just makes the simplest class in the game even more simpler with each update
    I don't think playing any ranged class is 'simple' if you know what you are doing. I think like hunter it usually attracts the least capable players that just stand there keyboard turning/back peddling and using 3/4 skills.
    Last edited by Shumzuda; Jun 19 2014 at 08:54 AM.

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  17. #17
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    Did I read somewhere here that "We won't know the effect of the 50%"? Seriously?
    Of course we will. And highly potent incoming healing debuffs are more debilitating to freepside as a faction because of their general inability to viably reach more than 10% over their base incoming heals. Creeps on the other hand get inc healing at no cost through BFP.
    You can argue the rank requirement, but on average, creeps have more passive inc healing and more inc healing availability (fungal spores).

    Now unless every freep despite their build can magically cap their inc healing rating with no problems in this update (Caps at 130%), then there's going to be significant problems with this change. Creeps from their base incoming healing probably have an average fluctuation of 10%-35% extra incoming healing, and that's not including the extra 15% from fungal spores.
    Compare the caps. A rank 15 creep has potentially 165% incoming healing (Including Fungal Spores). A rank 15 freep has up to 155% (Including Glorious foreshadowing AND the captain one. Cant remember what it's called).
    Which person is going to be more affected by a -50% incoming healing debuff? Well, according to these numbers the difference won't be noticeable.
    Here's the two things challenging that:
    1)Availability
    2)Stackability

    Freeps can consistently stack up to -105% incoming healing debuff (Every classes debuffs override each other except the wardens and the burgs. The burgs is not consistent at all hence why it is not included in the percentage).
    Creeps can consistently stack up to -150% at the moment (Blight, Reaver DS, Maul) with less complex co-ordination required to do so, again, consistently.
    Defilers also have a debuff that reduces the outgoing healing of anyone they choose by 1/4 the actual percentage.
    In practical terms, the difference between what each faction currently does (as opposed to what they could do) is miniscule in effect. But, if co-ordinated efficiently the superiority of creep healing interference would be more than noticeable.

    Basically, the run down of it is that Creeps already have more potential options for interfering with the effect of freep healing than freeps do against creeps. Especially considering the core healing component of creep heals is Hot-based while the core component of freep heals is what I call 'block-based'.
    Provided the scaling between the two types is relatively balanced, Hot-based heals will always be superior in more circumstances.


    Currently the availability of these debuffs, regardless of their potency, is pretty equal across the factions. Again, creeps may have the benefit in availability, considering that all of their incoming healing debuffs are all instrinsic to specific skills, while the most potent ones on creepside require trade-off in gear.
    Also, if we look at it in terms of proportion, creeps have a small but relatively higher proportion of consistent/effective and stackable form of incoming healing debuff per class.

    The problem with putting another inc-healing debuff on the BA is that it will skew this semi-relative balance in debuff availability across the factions.





    If creeps are going to get another inc healing debuff, there needs, to be a huge trade-off for this.
    There's absolutely no way, unless you increase the cooldown of VT to at least two minutes, that there will be anything close to a good trade-off by having the debuff on this skill on an individual basis.
    And unless the stackability/availability of creep incoming healing debuffs is significantly restricted there will be no adequate trade-off on a group and raid scale basis.


    Whatever happened to classes not being mirrored? Why are you trying to turn VT into a replica of heartseeker?
    Last edited by Untg99; Jun 19 2014 at 10:55 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Now unless every freep can magically cap their inc healing rating with no problems in this update, then there's going to be problems
    At the cost of all your audacity,and a bunch of other stats, you can get very high numbers of inc healing with essences.
    Further, with RK healer, you can get +15% on a large group, LMs can stack up to +48% incoming healing on a target (requires lvl 85 erebor gear, so it won't occur in PvP), +30% otherwise, but it's not really reliable.
    Captains have banners for +30% incoming healing for a while. Reform the Lines gives +15% inc healing on live, but that's currently planned to be removed in u14.

    So there are counters to inc healing debuffs, but it's not enough to counter up to -200% incoming healing creeps will be able to pull off in some situations:
    50% VT, 50% DS, 75% blight, 25% from warg.

    A very important difference is that both stacking +incoming healing and -incoming healing takes much more effort at freepside than it does at creepside.

    Anyway, BAs can get an inc healing debuff, but than the inc healing debuffs of other classes need a nerf to compensate. I'd say a 30% debuff for BAs (not on VT preferably), and than DS to 30% as well and blight to 30% (50% traited).
    ~Dwarrowdelf (Bomb Squad)~
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcwen View Post
    At the cost of all your audacity,and a bunch of other stats, you can get very high numbers of inc healing with essences.
    Further, with RK healer, you can get +15% on a large group, LMs can stack up to +48% incoming healing on a target (requires lvl 85 erebor gear, so it won't occur in PvP), +30% otherwise, but it's not really reliable.
    Captains have banners for +30% incoming healing for a while. Reform the Lines gives +15% inc healing on live, but that's currently planned to be removed in u14.

    So there are counters to inc healing debuffs, but it's not enough to counter up to -200% incoming healing creeps will be able to pull off in some situations:
    50% VT, 50% DS, 75% blight, 25% from warg.

    A very important difference is that both stacking +incoming healing and -incoming healing takes much more effort at freepside than it does at creepside.

    Anyway, BAs can get an inc healing debuff, but than the inc healing debuffs of other classes need a nerf to compensate. I'd say a 30% debuff for BAs (not on VT preferably), and than DS to 30% as well and blight to 30% (50% traited).
    Good post

    What I should have summarised with in my last post is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99
    Creeps in live can currently spam incoming healing debuffs more than freeps can, and those incoming healing debuffs reduce heals more than most freeps debuffs do, and the creep debuffs are all stackable where freeps are not.
    In live, Creeps also have more accessible and practical bonuses to their own incoming healing than freeps do.
    I think creeps should maintain having a higher availability of incoming healing debuffs. It's not necessarily a problem that creeps are able to spam the best versions of these effects more often either. But if that's going to happen, in terms of HPS, creep HoT healing needs to be worse than freep 'block-healing' to compensate.

    If creep HoT-healing is the same, higher or comparable in these terms, then we have what's going on now where defilers are just as hard, if not harder to kill than a dedicated runekeeper healer from the last expansion pack.
    That's assuming things like the defiler having access to sturdy mitigations, which is also currently the case in live.


    The absolute conclusion is that:
    There is nothing warranting the addition of more incoming healing debuffs in the ettenmoors. Adding another incoming healing debuff to creepside is completely unnecessary and will skew the balance between the factions even further. (Duh)


    If Turbine is intent on putting this through to some extent, I want to see the effect that goes through to live as mitigated as much as possible. Unless something is drastically changing on freepside that will severely influence the entire incoming healing stat, this is going to be a really ridiculous change.

  20. #20
    Just don't let creep inc healing stack like hardly does on freepside. Or change Freep inc heal debuffs to be able to stack. This is gonna break group fights if ds and vt stack.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangaar View Post
    DId i say that?Dont put words in my mouth

    But dont ignore the fact that freep classes are getting tree changes so we cant know for sure if the 50% is op or not. And as i said it should stack with the other debuffs
    Yes, if it looks ridiculous on paper it probably won't be as ridiculous because of other things we don't know. That's a brilliant way of putting it.

    At this point I don't even care, I want my own healing debuff that was taken from me on the 75 armor set.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  22. #22
    Heart Seeker has -50% ICH already, why so many tears.

    Yes the duration is longer, that should be reduced.

    But for God sake, this is beta build.
    “If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.”

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doril_Bladerunner View Post
    Heart Seeker has -50% ICH already, why so many tears.

    Yes the duration is longer, that should be reduced.

    But for God sake, this is beta build.
    Its for 8s tho but you can apply another one(maybe overlaps the HS one) with merciful shot another 10s at 70% health in red line..
    so if wel placed its 18s in total

    [Tangaar Captain R 7][Barukhazad Minstrel R 9]

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doril_Bladerunner View Post
    Heart Seeker has -50% ICH already, why so many tears.

    Yes the duration is longer, that should be reduced.

    But for God sake, this is beta build.
    Heartseeker CD is 2minutes. VT CD is active at 20-25 seconds.

    Heartseeker debuff is 50%, and resists on average ~30% of the time, Finesse stat seems to have no effect on this. BA debuff is also 50%, in testing on BR this resisted once in countless uses, around 3%.

    Heartseeker debuff is 8 seconds long. VT debuff is 20 seconds long.

    Heartseeker effective induction duration is 2x as long as VT induction.

    Heartseeker is one of the single most easy to spot and interrupt skills this game has. Four HUGE arrows pointing to the target it's going to hit, and the hunter glowing, and their arrow in the bow looks like a sparkler made of nuclear waste.

    Vital Target is indistinguishable from any other induction based skill, and the induction is tiny when Keen-eye is maxed.

    How does this scream freep tears to you? Can you not see the massive flaws in this? Hunters have another 10 sec inc heals debuff, which is gated behind your opponent being at 50% (blue/yellow line) or 70% (red line) morale, on a 20-30 sec CD. This skill can be Blocked, Evaded, and can miss. Unlike VT which can only miss, and cannot be BPE'd.

    Balance? Logic? This screams of the usual Turbine developer nonsense "heh lets put <x> in and see what happens".

    Jeezz....
    Absolution

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcwen View Post
    At the cost of all your audacity,and a bunch of other stats, you can get very high numbers of inc healing with essences.
    Further, with RK healer, you can get +15% on a large group, LMs can stack up to +48% incoming healing on a target (requires lvl 85 erebor gear, so it won't occur in PvP), +30% otherwise, but it's not really reliable.
    Captains have banners for +30% incoming healing for a while. Reform the Lines gives +15% inc healing on live, but that's currently planned to be removed in u14.

    So there are counters to inc healing debuffs, but it's not enough to counter up to -200% incoming healing creeps will be able to pull off in some situations:
    50% VT, 50% DS, 75% blight, 25% from warg.

    A very important difference is that both stacking +incoming healing and -incoming healing takes much more effort at freepside than it does at creepside.

    Anyway, BAs can get an inc healing debuff, but than the inc healing debuffs of other classes need a nerf to compensate. I'd say a 30% debuff for BAs (not on VT preferably), and than DS to 30% as well and blight to 30% (50% traited).
    So, basically what you are saying is, at the cost of survivability with a fraction of morale that creeps have, freeps can achieve what creeps can! Hooray, good to know! However, those counters require freeps to gimp themselves in other ways. The fact that you even admit that it won't happen in PvP speaks volumes. Sure, they CAN do it. But is it plausible? Not really.

    As far as the poster comparing HS to VT. Sure give hunters more survivability and HS CD comparable to VT and maybe we'd see more hunters in the moors these days. Since HS has a 2 min CD and hunters are still the easiest targets in the moors without a healer in RvR, then this comparison is invalid. I'd take 20s duration with POTENTIALLY constant uptime over HS resisting 25% of the time with a 2 min cd...
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