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Thread: @Bocagrande

  1. #1
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    @Bocagrande

    I hope you didn't get infuriated with those fights hwere I used heals. Also please don't be upset that I'm calling you out - It's not to attack you, troll you, rage at you or talk about how much you suck. It's also not to say the opposite.


    If you're going to use 4 over-proportionate skills to determine the success of a fight in as little as 10 seconds then I'm inevitably going to have to draw out the fight to compete. Especially if you use your CC cooldowns to manipulate the broken condensation of the classes power for uncontested efficiency.
    I'm not complaining I died at all, that's not what I'm posting about.

    You made a point to ensure that I allowed you started from stealth, with a fury pot and warg piss and initiating with a positional pounce. You then proceeded to use the 1,2,3,4 win/loss path to successful ganking in tandem with Tendon shred (which has been largely considered a cooldown for several expansion packs now) and ceased the fights immediately when I used any sort of self-healing/recovery options whatsoever.
    Again, I'm not complaining that you did this.

    What you're employing in those fights is not a balanced perspective to organised 1v1's. The idea of a 1v1 is not using the path of least resistance to get points from a willing opponent, but utilising your class in such a way that the player with the best micro-management of their entire skill-set reigns victor. Limitations generally apply to unaccountable skills and rotations of particular skills. That would also, in the current update apply to the age-old claws spam strategy which has only been effective due to lazy scaling from csecs at big T industries.

    I didn't mind so much in the previous updates where it didn't matter so much, but I'm not in the business of meaninglessly giving away free points to people that aren't working for it beyond pressing 4-5 buttons in organised 1v1 scenario's.

    Not attacking you, but just saying that you and any other warg employing this means of fighting solo's should not expect honourable skill limitations or usage from your opponents.
    If you're still asking why, then it's this;



    Playing a shadow warg with the aim of succeeding with claws/gouge spam is probably the easiest strategy to success anyone could employ on any class.



    Because 1v1's aren't about who's playing the easiest class to perform with, the reward or consequences of play that focuses on the path of least resistance should be adjusted accordingly.



    I assume/hope you gloss over the forums and hope you read this with the intent that I'm trying to communicate.
    Last edited by Untg99; May 21 2014 at 04:13 PM.

  2. #2
    And this one time, at farm camp, a dog bit me.
    [CENTER][I][SIZE=1](D)[/SIZE][/I][SIZE=3]after thought criminal element[/SIZE]
    [B][I][U]time explained:[/U][/I][/B] [URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3jjZdyH6io[/URL]
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  3. #3
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    1. From the character select screen, click the tab that says "Monster Play"

    2. From that screen, you'll see a list of monsters to chose from. Select one (Any of them, it does not matter) then click the "Enter Monster Play" button.

    3. Once in game, type "/tell Bocagrande" followed by your message letting that player know how upset you are with them.

    You're welcome.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    I hope you didn't get infuriated with those fights hwere I used heals. Also please don't be upset that I'm calling you out - It's not to attack you, troll you, rage at you or talk about how much you suck. It's also not to say the opposite.


    If you're going to use 4 over-proportionate skills to determine the success of a fight in as little as 10 seconds then I'm inevitably going to have to draw out the fight to compete. Especially if you use your CC cooldowns to manipulate the broken condensation of the classes power for uncontested efficiency.
    I'm not complaining I died at all, that's not what I'm posting about.

    You made a point to ensure that I allowed you started from stealth, with a fury pot and warg piss and initiating with a positional pounce. You then proceeded to use the 1,2,3,4 win/loss path to successful ganking in tandem with Tendon shred (which has been largely considered a cooldown for several expansion packs now) and ceased the fights immediately when I used any sort of self-healing/recovery options whatsoever.
    Again, I'm not complaining that you did this.

    What you're employing in those fights is not a balanced perspective to organised 1v1's. The idea of a 1v1 is not using the path of least resistance to get points from a willing opponent, but utilising your class in such a way that the player with the best micro-management of their entire skill-set reigns victor. Limitations generally apply to unaccountable skills and rotations of particular skills. That would also, in the current update apply to the age-old claws spam strategy which has only been effective due to lazy scaling from csecs at big T industries.

    I didn't mind so much in the previous updates where it didn't matter so much, but I'm not in the business of meaninglessly giving away free points to people that aren't working for it beyond pressing 4-5 buttons in organised 1v1 scenario's.

    Not attacking you, but just saying that you and any other warg employing this means of fighting solo's should not expect honourable skill limitations or usage from your opponents.
    If you're still asking why, then it's this;



    Playing a shadow warg with the aim of succeeding with claws/gouge spam is probably the easiest strategy to success anyone could employ on any class.



    Because 1v1's aren't about who's playing the easiest class to perform with, the reward or consequences of play that focuses on the path of least resistance should be adjusted accordingly.



    I assume/hope you gloss over the forums and hope you read this with the intent that I'm trying to communicate.
    Well, I'm glad you made a post here because I had a few thoughts of my own about the fights. First off, I would like to say, that I did not consider any but the last fight to be a 1v1 in the strictest sense. And that is why I used fury pots on all but the last fight. Secondly, starting from stealth is a built in (and accounted for) component of the class. It is factored in when the classes are balanced (not that the devs really put much thought into anything these days). But to deny a warg or burg the element of surprise is to put them at a disadvantage from the start.

    As far as my skill rotation, ask yourself this: how many wargs have you fought recently that have employed such a rotation successfully? I would wager that 90% of wargs pass by you in stealth without even thinking twice about actually fighting you, 5% get caught in a fight and HIPs out or sprint away within the first 10 seconds, and another 4% die a horrible death in a flaming ball of fire. Only perhaps 1% would even give you a challenging fight. Take this into consideration when you talk about the "easiest strategy to success". Now, I can accept that for some classes there are easy way outs to success. But until you can tell me what I might have done differently (even if requiring more skill) to defeat you, then you have little grounds for complaint. I do take a measured amount of pride in developing a quick, hard-hitting rotation that will set back my opponent from the start. Once again, that is the nature of the class. I do not have heals, considerable bleeds, effective debuffs, etc. The only weapons of the warg are a good rotation and getting positional damage.

    All in all, there really isn't much to complain about when fighting a warg (unless they macro or exploit). It is perhaps the most straight forward class in the game. There are no surprises. Your only real complaint for cool downs is tendon shred which is only even relevant if cripple-pounce misses. You should except to be stunned every 15s against a decent warg whether or not they use tendon shred. I know you think claws is an overpowered skill, but as I said, 99% of active wargs would lose to you without intentionally holding back anything. And until you can show how I might have otherwise achieved success, you can't really discredit my method.
    ~Bocagrande~

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    I would wager that 90% of wargs pass by you in stealth without even thinking twice about actually fighting you, 5% get caught in a fight and HIPs out or sprint away within the first 10 seconds, and another 4% die a horrible death in a flaming ball of fire. Only perhaps 1% would even give you a challenging fight.
    So you are the 1%?


    Crickhollow l Thorfinn || r14 champ, r12 burglar- Crickhollow || r11//r9 warg Crick//Elendilmir || + other stuff

  6. #6
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    wait...what? wargs can 4-5 shot people now?
    [Color=red]-Azsouth the Hand of Doom of Elendilmir, Rank 15 Warg [/color]
    Originator of the 1st [url=http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?143813-the-good-1v1-thread]Good 1v1 Thread [/url](Meneldor)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    Well, I'm glad you made a post here because I had a few thoughts of my own about the fights. First off, I would like to say, that I did not consider any but the last fight to be a 1v1 in the strictest sense. And that is why I used fury pots on all but the last fight.
    Alright, no problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    Secondly, starting from stealth is a built in (and accounted for) component of the class. It is factored in when the classes are balanced (not that the devs really put much thought into anything these days). But to deny a warg or burg the element of surprise is to put them at a disadvantage from the start.
    The thing is, the power schemes that become available in these regards vary from update to update. I could straight away make the point that using self-heals is a built in and accounted for component of the warden class. But is to deny them is to put them at a disadvantage from the start?
    Just because something is built in and can be accounted for in varying situations, that alone doesn't rule it as a pre-requisite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    As far as my skill rotation, ask yourself this: how many wargs have you fought recently that have employed such a rotation successfully? I would wager that 90% of wargs pass by you in stealth without even thinking twice about actually fighting you, 5% get caught in a fight and HIPs out or sprint away within the first 10 seconds, and another 4% die a horrible death in a flaming ball of fire. Only perhaps 1% would even give you a challenging fight. Take this into consideration when you talk about the "easiest strategy to success". Now, I can accept that for some classes there are easy way outs to success. But until you can tell me what I might have done differently (even if requiring more skill) to defeat you, then you have little grounds for complaint. I do take a measured amount of pride in developing a quick, hard-hitting rotation that will set back my opponent from the start. Once again, that is the nature of the class. I do not have heals, considerable bleeds, effective debuffs, etc. The only weapons of the warg are a good rotation and getting positional damage.
    Most wargs that have engaged me properly fight me with almost exactly the same consistency. The 4 skill rotation has been the easiest path of resistance the warg has had for many, many updates. Since orion changed the class in U6.

    If you were to fight me different I'd have played accordingly (As I was under the assumption that more than the last fight was a pre-agreed 1v1) and not attempted to simply stack DoTs. You caught me at an impasse in the build I was wearing too, I was testing out prioritising a BPE focused build, and every trade-off I'd made for it was instantly compromised by the inherent bonus by Shadow stance. Had I took the time to swap my build back, I could have probably more consistently DoT stacked you to death every time, whether or not I died (which would be almost solely dependant on my bleed crit rates).
    By your means of talking it doesn't sound like you put a heap of consideration into many other options at all. Have you looked at many of the other warg skills? You could probably have done even better against me had you utilised your silences, for example.
    Unfortunately, I'd stand by you to say that not very many other options are very viable. Some compared to the undistributed power in that rotation pretty much none.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    All in all, there really isn't much to complain about when fighting a warg (unless they macro or exploit). It is perhaps the most straight forward class in the game. There are no surprises. Your only real complaint for cool downs is tendon shred which is only even relevant if cripple-pounce misses. You should except to be stunned every 15s against a decent warg whether or not they use tendon shred. I know you think claws is an overpowered skill, but as I said, 99% of active wargs would lose to you without intentionally holding back anything. And until you can show how I might have otherwise achieved success, you can't really discredit my method.
    I discredit this method the same way I've discredited it over the last 3 level caps. I will say in honesty that in my experience you're not the first to utilise this or even the most successful warg that has utilised it. You do utilise it very well though. Especially in comparison with the 90%+ as you point out.
    I wasn't joking about the 10 seconds in my original post either. Confirmed without macro's, that's the fastest a warg has ever killed me practically using that same rotation.

    Basically I wanted to make this post to contend that by being engaged in these types of manners, I as a wargs opponent will inevitably need to compensate in some way. With how powerful such a simple rotation is, the best compromise is the warg not starting in stealth (because of how powerful the rotation is, that wouldn't actually gut anyones chances at fair combat) or that I sustain myself in some manner.
    For a warden that sustenance comes either through kiting (easily counterable by the wargs CC, base movement speed, slow or sprint), BPE (Countered by the joke that is Shadow stance) or self heals (Only countered by Bloody maul crits). I know you haven't and weren't complaining that I did self heal in some of those fights, but you tell me, which one is most viable?

    Considering my self heals are overpowered, the main point is just that, the rotation you use is too powerful for it's simplicity. That is the same against the majority of freep classes in square 1vs1 scenario's.

    Again, I know you weren't complaining or anything of the sort, the main reason I made this a thread is to communicate the following:
    Wargs utilising this strategy (doesn't really matter what success rate) shouldn't expect opponents to conform to a fair ideology of 1v1 etiquette. Nothing's really on the cards.

    I thought it would have been more of a duly note as I thought you were playing like you wanted 1v1s in my perception the moment you started jumping. I tend to be more conservative in nature, but that's why I wasn't incessantly using my self heals as a counter. Still perhaps a good point to leave with other readers.
    Last edited by Untg99; May 22 2014 at 07:12 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Alright, no problem.
    The thing is, the power schemes that become available in these regards vary from update to update. I could straight away make the point that using self-heals is a built in and accounted for component of the warden class. But is to deny them is to put them at a disadvantage from the start?
    Just because something is built in and can be accounted for in varying situations, that alone doesn't rule it as a pre-requisite.
    To talk about what is built in and accounted for with freep classes is a completely different conversation because freeps are mostly balanced for PvE. Sometimes that's an advantage and sometimes not...

    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Most wargs that have engaged me properly fight me with almost exactly the same consistency. The 4 skill rotation has been the easiest path of resistance the warg has had for many, many updates. Since orion changed the class in U6.


    If you were to fight me different I'd have played accordingly (As I was under the assumption that more than the last fight was a pre-agreed 1v1) and not attempted to simply stack DoTs. You caught me at an impasse in the build I was wearing too, I was testing out prioritising a BPE focused build, and every trade-off I'd made for it was instantly compromised by the inherent bonus by Shadow stance. Had I took the time to swap my build back, I could have probably more consistently DoT stacked you to death every time, whether or not I died (which would be almost solely dependant on my bleed crit rates).
    By your means of talking it doesn't sound like you put a heap of consideration into many other options at all. Have you looked at many of the other warg skills? You could probably have done even better against me had you utilised your silences, for example.
    Unfortunately, I'd stand by you to say that not very many other options are very viable. Some compared to the undistributed power in that rotation pretty much none.
    To be honest, the main reason I didn't do silence or fleas (although fleas aren't very useful against masteries) is because the bottom line is I don't like to die when I'm playing solo. To me, each one of those fights was an extremely close fight because by the time your bleeds had worn off I was nearly dead. I know being a warden you are used to winning even when you lose because of your bleeds, but I didn't feel like using those skills against you would help me to my goal. I have two silences, which basically require 3 skills to apply. Lets assume one of them hits and you pot the other (again something that depends on whether its a strict 1v1). Now I've used 3 skills, gained nothing but some eye rake damage, and you've got another tier 4 bleed on me that will take 15-20k morale by the time its done. Against no other class is it such a race against time than with the warden. If I were fighting a minstrel my approach would have been 100% different utilizing every single debuff I have and then going for a stun -> silence -> stun -> silence combo to buy enough time where they can't heal to actually kill them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    I discredit this method the same way I've discredited it over the last 3 level caps. I will say in honesty that in my experience you're not the first to utilise this or even the most successful warg that has utilised it. You do utilise it very well though. Especially in comparison with the 90%+ as you point out.
    I wasn't joking about the 10 seconds in my original post either. Confirmed without macro's, that's the fastest a warg has ever killed me practically using that same rotation.

    Basically I wanted to make this post to contend that by being engaged in these types of manners, I as a wargs opponent will inevitably need to compensate in some way. With how powerful such a simple rotation is, the best compromise is the warg not starting in stealth (because of how powerful the rotation is, that wouldn't actually gut anyones chances at fair combat) or that I sustain myself in some manner.
    For a warden that sustenance comes either through kiting (easily counterable by the wargs CC, base movement speed, slow or sprint), BPE (Countered by the joke that is Shadow stance) or self heals (Only countered by Bloody maul crits). I know you haven't and weren't complaining that I did self heal in some of those fights, but you tell me, which one is most viable?

    Considering my self heals are overpowered, the main point is just that, the rotation you use is too powerful for it's simplicity. That is the same against the majority of freep classes in square 1vs1 scenario's.

    Again, I know you weren't complaining or anything of the sort, the main reason I made this a thread is to communicate the following:
    Wargs utilising this strategy (doesn't really matter what success rate) shouldn't expect opponents to conform to a fair ideology of 1v1 etiquette. Nothing's really on the cards.

    I thought it would have been more of a duly note as I thought you were playing like you wanted 1v1s in my perception the moment you started jumping. I tend to be more conservative in nature, but that's why I wasn't incessantly using my self heals as a counter. Still perhaps a good point to leave with other readers.
    Lets add a bit more perspective to the fight. First, there were 4 red OPs. Second, I don't know that I've ever fought you 1v1 (at least that's what my kill tracker says [either that or ive just never won lol]). So, lets suppose the OPs were even (which hurts my build a lot as I don't currently use mastery corruptions). Now would my rotation have been overpowered? Might I still have lost most or all of those fights even with this simple, overpowered rotation? Or, because I don't know you well enough, who knows when you might throw in a few heals or NS in the mix? If I start off in a different manner (I still can't imagine what else I would do short of just doing the same thing slower) and then it turns out you use self heals, how will I make up that lost time? And finally, rule #2 in the moors (#1 is never pretend to be in a group you're not actually in): never play with your food. I can't tell you the number of times I've done that and had some R0 warg (or several) swoop in and steal the kill/pts.

    So, from a perspective of ignorance (where I don't know what you or others will do), it seems to me the best strategy is to go all-out with the most effective technique you know. Now, were we to set up a more arranged 1v1 in a secluded area, I would have no problem experimenting with other strategies. But the bottom line is that if I had done something different as you suggest, the most notable change would have been that I was dead and you were not. So I still don't think you can fault me method.
    ~Bocagrande~

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    To talk about what is built in and accounted for with freep classes is a completely different conversation because freeps are mostly balanced for PvE. Sometimes that's an advantage and sometimes not...



    To be honest, the main reason I didn't do silence or fleas (although fleas aren't very useful against masteries) is because the bottom line is I don't like to die when I'm playing solo. To me, each one of those fights was an extremely close fight because by the time your bleeds had worn off I was nearly dead. I know being a warden you are used to winning even when you lose because of your bleeds, but I didn't feel like using those skills against you would help me to my goal. I have two silences, which basically require 3 skills to apply. Lets assume one of them hits and you pot the other (again something that depends on whether its a strict 1v1). Now I've used 3 skills, gained nothing but some eye rake damage, and you've got another tier 4 bleed on me that will take 15-20k morale by the time its done. Against no other class is it such a race against time than with the warden. If I were fighting a minstrel my approach would have been 100% different utilizing every single debuff I have and then going for a stun -> silence -> stun -> silence combo to buy enough time where they can't heal to actually kill them.



    Lets add a bit more perspective to the fight. First, there were 4 red OPs. Second, I don't know that I've ever fought you 1v1 (at least that's what my kill tracker says [either that or ive just never won lol]). So, lets suppose the OPs were even (which hurts my build a lot as I don't currently use mastery corruptions). Now would my rotation have been overpowered? Might I still have lost most or all of those fights even with this simple, overpowered rotation? Or, because I don't know you well enough, who knows when you might throw in a few heals or NS in the mix? If I start off in a different manner (I still can't imagine what else I would do short of just doing the same thing slower) and then it turns out you use self heals, how will I make up that lost time? And finally, rule #2 in the moors (#1 is never pretend to be in a group you're not actually in): never play with your food. I can't tell you the number of times I've done that and had some R0 warg (or several) swoop in and steal the kill/pts.

    So, from a perspective of ignorance (where I don't know what you or others will do), it seems to me the best strategy is to go all-out with the most effective technique you know. Now, were we to set up a more arranged 1v1 in a secluded area, I would have no problem experimenting with other strategies. But the bottom line is that if I had done something different as you suggest, the most notable change would have been that I was dead and you were not. So I still don't think you can fault me method.
    Like I said, I was under an assumption that we were to be engaging in more strict 1v1 ettiquites earlier han apparently we were.

    The thing is though, with the way warden bleed scaling is at the moment, the fist bleeds are by far the most potent. The only worthwhile damage applications I get on you are going to be tactically based and will at some point require me to use wardens taunt. Now if you can shut that down early, especially if it messes up a lengthy gambit, you'll get uncontested damage on me, whether or not I choose to cure it.

    We've engaged each other on multiple occasions. I have killed you several times before, but I doubt that many of them will have been in solo settings.

    And on that front of ignorance as you say, I'll generally agree. Unless you have a rapport with someone that is definitely the best bet.
    Like I said, I had assumed we were taking cards off the table earlier than you thought we were. Out of ignorance on that assumption, I assumed it would have changed the combat parameters. As such my mental span during these points was more focusing on deciding which bleeds would be absolutely necessary to stack, and which I could forsake to apply more flat damages.
    So it was taking me a bit by surprise when I was being engaged in the same respect, because I wasn't expecting to have to resort trying to DoT stack you to death.

    I actually didn't pay attention to the fact that there was 4 red OPs. Considering the more linear nature of a lot of creep stats, that would have put my chances in an even more negative light!


    Regardless of whether or not you would have lived or died at any consistency, I still consider the whole rotation to be really dumb. I do however consider warden bleeds to be really stupid also. Both have become disproportionate means of success which I find are a bad indication of skill beyond how well you can recreate them in the same way and how the RNG decides to treat you.
    For that reason, if you ever see me out there I'd love the opportunity to explore other avenues of play with you in that regard.

    At any rate, thanks for the discussion

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Like I said, I was under an assumption that we were to be engaging in more strict 1v1 ettiquites earlier han apparently we were.

    The thing is though, with the way warden bleed scaling is at the moment, the fist bleeds are by far the most potent. The only worthwhile damage applications I get on you are going to be tactically based and will at some point require me to use wardens taunt. Now if you can shut that down early, especially if it messes up a lengthy gambit, you'll get uncontested damage on me, whether or not I choose to cure it.

    We've engaged each other on multiple occasions. I have killed you several times before, but I doubt that many of them will have been in solo settings.

    And on that front of ignorance as you say, I'll generally agree. Unless you have a rapport with someone that is definitely the best bet.
    Like I said, I had assumed we were taking cards off the table earlier than you thought we were. Out of ignorance on that assumption, I assumed it would have changed the combat parameters. As such my mental span during these points was more focusing on deciding which bleeds would be absolutely necessary to stack, and which I could forsake to apply more flat damages.
    So it was taking me a bit by surprise when I was being engaged in the same respect, because I wasn't expecting to have to resort trying to DoT stack you to death.

    I actually didn't pay attention to the fact that there was 4 red OPs. Considering the more linear nature of a lot of creep stats, that would have put my chances in an even more negative light!


    Regardless of whether or not you would have lived or died at any consistency, I still consider the whole rotation to be really dumb. I do however consider warden bleeds to be really stupid also. Both have become disproportionate means of success which I find are a bad indication of skill beyond how well you can recreate them in the same way and how the RNG decides to treat you.
    For that reason, if you ever see me out there I'd love the opportunity to explore other avenues of play with you in that regard.

    At any rate, thanks for the discussion
    I've found nearly everything you've said to be quite reasonable. However, I would challenge you to think about this. Many classes have multiple avenues they can employ to defeat their opponent. Granted some of these are outdated and I'm not up-to-speed on the new skill trees. But, a champ might go glory and try to heal, he might go red line and go all out DPS. A burg might go gambler and use a lot of tricks and heals, or he might go all out DPS with stuns. A hunter might go trapper and throw down many traps to bleed and snare their opponent (hazori does this well) or they might go the DPS route. A warden can go for bleeds, they can go for straight damage, or they might try to go BPE & heals. But creep classes aren't nearly as versatile and the warg is a prime example. So here's the challenge: think of another method a warg might employ, another strategy. And simply choosing a less effective DPS rotation is not a different method. That's just being dumb imo. As I said before, against different classes I would try slightly different strategy, but the warg is perhaps the least versatile class there is and the only options are DPS well, or DPS poorly.
    ~Bocagrande~

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    I've found nearly everything you've said to be quite reasonable. However, I would challenge you to think about this. Many classes have multiple avenues they can employ to defeat their opponent. Granted some of these are outdated and I'm not up-to-speed on the new skill trees. But, a champ might go glory and try to heal, he might go red line and go all out DPS. A burg might go gambler and use a lot of tricks and heals, or he might go all out DPS with stuns. A hunter might go trapper and throw down many traps to bleed and snare their opponent (hazori does this well) or they might go the DPS route. A warden can go for bleeds, they can go for straight damage, or they might try to go BPE & heals. But creep classes aren't nearly as versatile and the warg is a prime example. So here's the challenge: think of another method a warg might employ, another strategy. And simply choosing a less effective DPS rotation is not a different method. That's just being dumb imo. As I said before, against different classes I would try slightly different strategy, but the warg is perhaps the least versatile class there is and the only options are DPS well, or DPS poorly.
    Thank you.

    From what I've been able to collect since having come back, it seems as though while freep classes have more avenues to wriggle with, there's still a mirrored problem that's passing through both factions. Wargs have alternative avenues which don't solely rely on just DPS. Flayer is one such example, and some thought could even go into any potential benefits from being unstanced.

    In saying that I'm not ignoring that there tends to be massive viability differences between Flayer and shadow wargs, but I tend to find the same happening in places on freepside.
    It is certainly true that there is more wriggle room for more classes to mess with, but for some classes the avenues which carry the highest and simplest form of viability can outweigh the alternatives which may be more indicative of player-skill to a similar extent.

    For example, flat damage isn't really an option for the warden as a competitive strategy versus claws based shadow warg rotations - It just simply can't keep up. So the only competitive options become either DoT stacking in a dps race or self-healing in a turtle shell. Now there is a little bit of overlap (If I'm going to beat you in shield line, I'll need to use some DoTs for example) but in both cases it becomes a matter of either pressing nothing too dissimilar from 3131, 4 or 2121 4 while maintaining the same static movement patterns that I get shafted into because of poor distributive power.

    Outside of that there's not really anything more that happens, and so it either comes down to which classes badly distributed approach is inherently more powerful, the freeps build in relation to the creeps trait panel, which has more OPs on their side or ... the infamous random number generator.

    In that regard Turbine has achieved perfect balance! The problem is if I want to actually test measures of my skill (which doesn't necessarily result in deaths either way) the viability of the paths of least resistance for every class leads towards making it extremely pointless taking an alternative option if I want to enjoy seeing some renown every now and then.
    None tends to be more pigeon-holing in this regard than the meta Turbine tries and has tried to enforce for every individual freep class.

    So I have tried to think about it. If not extensive thought, my response would be that while freepside as a whole carries more avenue for alternative play-style, the emphasis on a single avenue for success for each class may potentially be as restricting to those classes as it is for the warg.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    some thought could even go into any potential benefits from being unstanced.
    Speaking from experience, that's a very masochistic road to go down.

    I really wanted that flag to be viable again
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    Well, I'm glad you made a post here because I had a few thoughts of my own about the fights. First off, I would like to say, that I did not consider any but the last fight to be a 1v1 in the strictest sense. And that is why I used fury pots on all but the last fight. Secondly, starting from stealth is a built in (and accounted for) component of the class. It is factored in when the classes are balanced (not that the devs really put much thought into anything these days). But to deny a warg or burg the element of surprise is to put them at a disadvantage from the start.

    As far as my skill rotation, ask yourself this: how many wargs have you fought recently that have employed such a rotation successfully? I would wager that 90% of wargs pass by you in stealth without even thinking twice about actually fighting you, 5% get caught in a fight and HIPs out or sprint away within the first 10 seconds, and another 4% die a horrible death in a flaming ball of fire. Only perhaps 1% would even give you a challenging fight. Take this into consideration when you talk about the "easiest strategy to success". Now, I can accept that for some classes there are easy way outs to success. But until you can tell me what I might have done differently (even if requiring more skill) to defeat you, then you have little grounds for complaint. I do take a measured amount of pride in developing a quick, hard-hitting rotation that will set back my opponent from the start. Once again, that is the nature of the class. I do not have heals, considerable bleeds, effective debuffs, etc. The only weapons of the warg are a good rotation and getting positional damage.

    All in all, there really isn't much to complain about when fighting a warg (unless they macro or exploit). It is perhaps the most straight forward class in the game. There are no surprises. Your only real complaint for cool downs is tendon shred which is only even relevant if cripple-pounce misses. You should except to be stunned every 15s against a decent warg whether or not they use tendon shred. I know you think claws is an overpowered skill, but as I said, 99% of active wargs would lose to you without intentionally holding back anything. And until you can show how I might have otherwise achieved success, you can't really discredit my method.
    I fought you and you do have considerable damage and frankly you were the first warg to beat me which I will openly say that. I heal and blue line also , Yet one thing I must ask is I saw orc craft damage in my combat log not sure how exactly that works, I thought wargs were fell wrought?
    Bocagrande scored a hit with Unarmed Attack on Alzie for 165 Orc-craft damage to Morale. I was wondering if they replaced common damage with that but over all I will figure out how to handle in a 1vs1 . I enjoy fighting you and stop being a pita with the outposts please;P.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalexia View Post
    I fought you and you do have considerable damage and frankly you were the first warg to beat me which I will openly say that.
    say whaaaat

    do I need to consult my screenshot library?
    "There is alot we can hold Turbine's feet to the fire for ; but the state of pvmp isn't one of them." - Quote from a 2014 Players Council Member

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Zalexia View Post
    I fought you and you do have considerable damage and frankly you were the first warg to beat me which I will openly say that. I heal and blue line also , Yet one thing I must ask is I saw orc craft damage in my combat log not sure how exactly that works, I thought wargs were fell wrought?
    Bocagrande scored a hit with Unarmed Attack on Alzie for 165 Orc-craft damage to Morale. I was wondering if they replaced common damage with that but over all I will figure out how to handle in a 1vs1 . I enjoy fighting you and stop being a pita with the outposts please;P.
    Well, since the original thread is basically finished, I'll say this. I think orc-craft is just for the auto attacks, but it doesn't really matter. Fell wrought and orc craft are both physical damage and your mitigation to each should be the same, right? I think they did get rid of common damage, but as you can see, creep auto attacks are still a joke.
    ~Bocagrande~

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    say whaaaat

    do I need to consult my screenshot library?
    I almost believe it. She pops every conceivable cd and store bought item no matter the situation or rank of the creep.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    It is factored in when the classes are balanced (not that the devs really put much thought into anything these days).
    Spoilers: The classes aren't balanced
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by KillGore81 View Post
    I almost believe it. She pops every conceivable cd and store bought item no matter the situation or rank of the creep.
    You must not know who I am.

    I am the God of Wargs, former student of Lord Lampiao himself (may he live forever).

    I recall beating this specific minstrel in a 1v1 with over 95% morale left.
    "There is alot we can hold Turbine's feet to the fire for ; but the state of pvmp isn't one of them." - Quote from a 2014 Players Council Member

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    I recall beating this specific minstrel in a 1v1 with over 95% morale left.
    And 5% of your skills off cooldown ...

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nidagnest View Post
    As far as my skill rotation, ask yourself this: how many wargs have you fought recently that have employed such a rotation successfully? I would wager that 90% of wargs pass by you in stealth without even thinking twice about actually fighting you, 5% get caught in a fight and HIPs out or sprint away within the first 10 seconds, and another 4% die a horrible death in a flaming ball of fire. Only perhaps 1% would even give you a challenging fight. Take this into consideration when you talk about the "easiest strategy to success". Now, I can accept that for some classes there are easy way outs to success. But until you can tell me what I might have done differently (even if requiring more skill) to defeat you, then you have little grounds for complaint. I do take a measured amount of pride in developing a quick, hard-hitting rotation that will set back my opponent from the start. Once again, that is the nature of the class. I do not have heals, considerable bleeds, effective debuffs, etc. The only weapons of the warg are a good rotation and getting positional damage.
    Is E really in this dire of straights that the "1%ers" of wargs aren't killing a non-healing warden with only an initial pounce?

    Masteries ARE affected by attack duration buffs/debuffs, as are builders and all gambits. If you're losing time using howl from shadow, you're doing it wrong. Even with debuffs the fight should be over in under 20s (assuming no heals here, and assuming Constrictions runs around 28k morale), which means even with an unmolested rotation the warden won't have brought the brunt of their dps to bear on you yet, and if you properly execute debuffs they'll only make it through about half of a worthwhile rotation.
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Is E really in this dire of straights that the "1%ers" of wargs aren't killing a non-healing warden with only an initial pounce?

    Masteries ARE affected by attack duration buffs/debuffs, as are builders and all gambits. If you're losing time using howl from shadow, you're doing it wrong. Even with debuffs the fight should be over in under 20s (assuming no heals here, and assuming Constrictions runs around 28k morale), which means even with an unmolested rotation the warden won't have brought the brunt of their dps to bear on you yet, and if you properly execute debuffs they'll only make it through about half of a worthwhile rotation.
    24k morale in this scenario, 7% less mits than I have mentioned in the forums previously - Was testing a BPE focused build.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Is E really in this dire of straights that the "1%ers" of wargs aren't killing a non-healing warden with only an initial pounce?

    Masteries ARE affected by attack duration buffs/debuffs, as are builders and all gambits. If you're losing time using howl from shadow, you're doing it wrong. Even with debuffs the fight should be over in under 20s (assuming no heals here, and assuming Constrictions runs around 28k morale), which means even with an unmolested rotation the warden won't have brought the brunt of their dps to bear on you yet, and if you properly execute debuffs they'll only make it through about half of a worthwhile rotation.
    I have often said I have moved up through the percentiles of skilled wargs without getting much better. So, yes, E is in dire straights when it comes to skilled players. I never said I would be losing time doing howl from shadow. I said if my silences were resisted or potted, then I would have lost time. And in the beginning I didn't consider the fights strict 1v1s so I didn't know how he would react to being silenced.

    That's good to know about the masteries. For some reason I remembered them being immediate skills but I haven't played my warden in almost a year.
    ~Bocagrande~

 

 

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