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  1. #1
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    Layout of upcoming Update 15's Pelargir in relation to what is known.

    From the many images, maps and concepts scattered across the internet, it is clear that Pelargir is quite large in size.



    Found the image above from Tolkein Gateway, but it is also been put up on other fan-sites.

    The city is drawn as a large triangle which sits at the bottom of the map, supposedly reached directly by the cliff-side path south of Dol Amroth in-game (currently broken) or via travelling across the rest of Lebennin through the gap east of Calembel (invisible wall). Since this city is going to be the main focus in update 15's epic story, its curios to see how Turbine is going to interpret the large port.

    Any thoughts all?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/1321300000003273b/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by OMG_PEANUTS View Post
    From the many images, maps and concepts scattered across the internet, it is clear that Pelargir is quite large in size.



    Found the image above from Tolkein Gateway, but it is also been put up on other fan-sites.

    The city is drawn as a large triangle which sits at the bottom of the map, supposedly reached directly by the cliff-side path south of Dol Amroth in-game (currently broken) or via travelling across the rest of Lebennin through the gap east of Calembel (invisible wall). Since this city is going to be the main focus in update 15's epic story, its curios to see how Turbine is going to interpret the large port.

    Any thoughts all?

    I'm actually rather satisfied with how the devs implemented Dol Amroth (excluding the sometimes overwhelming copy/paste of the wings on buildings). Its architecture was not really described in books, other than it sitting on land that was jutting out into the bay, and the many images of it were mostly fan-based or other creative works that the devs couldn't really base their construction on. The image you give, however, comes straight from the legendarium, so this map is an actual representation by Tolkien of what Pelargir looks like, and I really hope the devs take inspiration from that. It really is a fantastic looking design, and I'd be really interested to see it implemented in game.

    Interesting fact (Note: SPOILER for those who haven't done West Gondor quests yet):


    Castamir, the heir of whom we fight and defeat in the quests, was actually extremely popular in Pelargir, and his family apparently had some history there, as not only did he establish his base of operations there, but his great-grandsons also took it back after Castamir was removed from there. It'd be pretty interesting to have that history explored more in U15.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stasik View Post
    The image you give, however, comes straight from the legendarium, so this map is an actual representation by Tolkien of what Pelargir looks like, and I really hope the devs take inspiration from that. It really is a fantastic looking design, and I'd be really interested to see it implemented in game.
    Sorry, what? Pretty sure that's just taken from a MERP module, originally.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Sorry, what? Pretty sure that's just taken from a MERP module, originally.
    Is it? I've never played MERP, so I wouldn't know, I was just basing my analysis on the source given for the image in the website (which I may have misread in this case), and the fact that all other images are very similar to that one, with a consistency not found for other images. But if it really is from MERP, then that's a shame, I suppose the devs will just have to use their imagination too! Though for the record, looking at the whole map of Middle-Earth included in the trilogy, Pelargir is directly where the River Sirith meets Anduin. The merging of the rivers creates a triangular shape, right in the middle of which is placed the dot marked "Pelargir," so I suppose that's where artists got the inspiration from. Though now that I think about it, unlike the image given, where all three sides of the triangle are surrounded by water, in the map it's clearly seen that the two rivers form two sides, but the third side would be facing north east, towards Minas Tirith, and surrounded by land.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Stasik View Post
    Is it? I've never played MERP, so I wouldn't know, I was just basing my analysis on the source given for the image in the website (which I may have misread in this case), and the fact that all other images are very similar to that one, with a consistency not found for other images. But if it really is from MERP, then that's a shame, I suppose the devs will just have to use their imagination too! Though for the record, looking at the whole map of Middle-Earth included in the trilogy, Pelargir is directly where the River Sirith meets Anduin. The merging of the rivers creates a triangular shape, right in the middle of which is placed the dot marked "Pelargir," so I suppose that's where artists got the inspiration from. Though now that I think about it, unlike the image given, where all three sides of the triangle are surrounded by water, in the map it's clearly seen that the two rivers form two sides, but the third side would be facing north east, towards Minas Tirith, and surrounded by land.
    On the original, hand drawn map by Christopher Tolkien (which is as close as we can get to canon I guess), Pelargir is not exactly where Anduin and Sirith meet, it appears to be about 5 miles upstream on the Northern bank of Anduin.
    Most maps I've seen since then (including an excellent wall map I have in my home) place it as you said, on the small triangle of land formed by the confluence of those rivers. I also have never played MERP, so I can neither confirm nor deny that the original idea for a triangular island/city comes from that source.
    One thing I do know though is that if you google "Pelargir" images you see that triangular design used quite a lot in art for that city. The images from that search appear to be in several different artistic styles, suggesting perhaps that the artists were borrowing from a single, earlier source.

    In any case I see nothing wrong with the LOTRO devs going with something similar to that design, I also think it looks pretty cool and is not necessarily a major break from what little we know of the lore of that region.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhelm View Post
    On the original, hand drawn map by Christopher Tolkien (which is as close as we can get to canon I guess), Pelargir is not exactly where Anduin and Sirith meet, it appears to be about 5 miles upstream on the Northern bank of Anduin.
    Most maps I've seen since then (including an excellent wall map I have in my home) place it as you said, on the small triangle of land formed by the confluence of those rivers. I also have never played MERP, so I can neither confirm nor deny that the original idea for a triangular island/city comes from that source.
    One thing I do know though is that if you google "Pelargir" images you see that triangular design used quite a lot in art for that city. The images from that search appear to be in several different artistic styles, suggesting perhaps that the artists were borrowing from a single, earlier source.

    In any case I see nothing wrong with the LOTRO devs going with something similar to that design, I also think it looks pretty cool and is not necessarily a major break from what little we know of the lore of that region.
    All I was saying was that it isn't canonical, not that there's anything especially wrong with it other than that. That said, personally I think that making it perfectly triangular looks too improbable, pretty but impractical - it also doesn't sit well with how the Numenoreans used to have big ocean-going ships, you'd want a different layout for a port for those. This looks like something more Mediterranean, built with nothing but galleys in mind and where there's only a small tidal range.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    All I was saying was that it isn't canonical, not that there's anything especially wrong with it other than that. That said, personally I think that making it perfectly triangular looks too improbable, pretty but impractical - it also doesn't sit well with how the Numenoreans used to have big ocean-going ships, you'd want a different layout for a port for those. This looks like something more Mediterranean, built with nothing but galleys in mind and where there's only a small tidal range.
    I agree that the city, as shown in that image is far from canonical. For one thing it is way too symmetrical, those dead straight lines look far too modern for my liking. Having said that you have to ask what could be considered to be canonical in a case like this?
    My vision, taking what we know about Pelargir, (which is very little other than the location and the fact that it was the principal port of the South Kingdom), is more of a natural triangle. The South-East and South-West arms of the triangle would be the natural banks of the Anduin and Sirith rivers, with the Northern arm being a heavily fortified wall. I think we can at least agree that nothing the devs come up with will be exactly canon, that's impossible, but I think they could do much worse than drawing their inspiration from some of the artwork which is already out there.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhelm View Post
    I agree that the city, as shown in that image is far from canonical. For one thing it is way too symmetrical, those dead straight lines look far too modern for my liking. Having said that you have to ask what could be considered to be canonical in a case like this?
    Obviously, only something Tolkien had done himself, or at least described in detail. I only mentioned it because Stasik thought that was what that was.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Obviously, only something Tolkien had done himself, or at least described in detail. I only mentioned it because Stasik thought that was what that was.
    My mistake . I do agree though that a triangular shape for Pelargir would be awesome to see, maybe not something as geometrically perfect as the image though...

  10. #10
    Actually, Numenoreans straightening and "industrializing" the whole triangle is not so improbable. They were great engineers after all, even the remnants of their works give that impression (Minas Tirith is rather symmetrical at that ).
    And it does align with reality more than you'd think. Take antiquity architecture. Romans, for for example, implemented a fair share of similar projects. The Portus of Rome, for one, was a whole artificial bay and served a similar purpose to Pelargir.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    Actually, Numenoreans straightening and "industrializing" the whole triangle is not so improbable. They were great engineers after all, even the remnants of their works give that impression (Minas Tirith is rather symmetrical at that ).
    And it does align with reality more than you'd think. Take antiquity architecture. Romans, for for example, implemented a fair share of similar projects. The Portus of Rome, for one, was a whole artificial bay and served a similar purpose to Pelargir.
    Not really, because the Portus had its hexagonal pool out back of a more conventional outer port (with breakwaters and a lighthouse), all thoroughly practical, a very solid (and impressive) piece of civil engineering whereas this triangular thing lacks that air of practicality, it looks like it's mainly meant to be pretty.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Not really, because the Portus had its hexagonal pool out back of a more conventional outer port (with breakwaters and a lighthouse), all thoroughly practical, a very solid (and impressive) piece of civil engineering whereas this triangular thing lacks that air of practicality, it looks like it's mainly meant to be pretty.
    The inner hexagonal bay was only part of the infrastructure actually. The outer bay was also artificially shaped with unloading docks, warehouses, living quarters, etc. It also included a number of channels including one or two that led all the way to Rome. And Roman architecture in fact looks very similar to what we see in that picture with arrow straight lines and white stone buildings.

    But anyway, every part of that triangle facing the water is probably the docks, and from the scale of the ships in the channels, those docks are very numerous. So quite plausible for Numenoreans who could afford mixing practicality with aesthetics at the height of their empire.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    The inner hexagonal bay was only part of the infrastructure actually. The outer bay was also artificially shaped with unloading docks, warehouses, living quarters, etc. It also included a number of channels including one or two that led all the way to Rome. And Roman architecture in fact looks very similar to what we see in that picture with arrow straight lines and white stone buildings.
    Didn't I just say that? The point was it's not all some perfect geometric shape. (And it's also in the Mediterranean - meaning a small tidal range, something which a place like Pelargir would not have).

    But anyway, every part of that triangle facing the water is probably the docks, and from the scale of the ships in the channels, those docks are very numerous. So quite plausible for Numenoreans who could afford mixing practicality with aesthetics at the height of their empire.
    Not to that extent. That triangular pool in the middle just looks like a bad idea - lots of wasted space in those internal corners. And as I said earlier the Numenoreans had oriignally had large, ocean-going sailing ships whereas this sort of layout looks like it'd only suit galleys. (And galleys were of course what the Romans had, too). If you're looking for comparisons you really need something from the age of sail, and not on a Mediterranean coast either.

  14. #14
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    FYI - MERP and ICE -

    As an old AD&D player who came to LOTRO from DDO back in 2006, I'm quite familiar with ICE and MERP, having owned most of the modules long ago, before I retired.

    "Middle Earth Role Playing (MERP) was a role playing game based on the writings of J.R.R. Tolkien. Created in 1984 Iron Crown Enterprises (ICE) continued to publish the game and supporting material until the license was lost in September 1999. ICE no longer publishes or supports Middle Earth Role Playing but is immeasurably proud of it.

    ICE published a first and a second edition of the MERP ruleset along with many adventure and campaign modules, until the license ended in 1999.

    In 1991-1993, Iron Crown published the Lord of the Rings Adventure Game. This game was similar to Middle Earth Role Playing but used a much simpler system than MERP and was intended to introduce new players to role-playing.

    Middle Earth Role Playing along with a number of its adventure and campaign modules were translated into a number of different languages and MERP gained a large following across the globe."

    Iron Cronw Enterprices (ICE) http://ironcrown.com/middle-earth-role-playing/

    Fairly complete details on all of the MERP modules are here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Middl...h_Role_Playing

    And the Lindefrion version of Pelagir is here: http://wiki.lindefirion.net/Pelargir

    So, Yes, according to the MERP design, Pelargir was built upon a Triangular Island.
    Bill Magill - Mac Player - Old Timers Guild- Gladden:

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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Didn't I just say that? The point was it's not all some perfect geometric shape. (And it's also in the Mediterranean - meaning a small tidal range, something which a place like Pelargir would not have).

    Not to that extent. That triangular pool in the middle just looks like a bad idea - lots of wasted space in those internal corners. And as I said earlier the Numenoreans had oriignally had large, ocean-going sailing ships whereas this sort of layout looks like it'd only suit galleys. (And galleys were of course what the Romans had, too). If you're looking for comparisons you really need something from the age of sail, and not on a Mediterranean coast either.
    What I meant was that Portus was a huge man-made infrastructure and it was very neatly planned. Ostia Antica was a full-fledged city next to the harbor with very straight lines in fact.
    And Pelargir wasn't a sea-facing port. It was on the Anduin rather far upstream before the actual delta. Nor was it meant to be the main Numenorean port. Umbar held that title being a true oceanic harbor.

    You're right, it's not purely efficient, but the empire that could afford to cut whole cities out of mountainsides after its fall, could certainly afford aesthetic Pelargir at its prime.
    But that said, I do hope of course we don't get this exact Pelargir, it mismatches all other stuff we have in Lotro.

  16. #16
    I wrote in an earlier post that I believed the city looked too modern in the image originally posted by OMG_PEANUTS, I stand by that to a certain extent, it looks to me a little like those perfectly symmetrical structures built on the water at Dubai.
    I've had a little more time to reflect on that since then, and some of the excellent points brought up by other posters in this thread got me thinking about ancient structures from the real world, most particularly the Great Pyramid of Giza. It was built four and a half thousand years ago, and on completion looked far more impressive than it does today. For one thing the sides were perfectly smooth, not stepped as they appear today, and it was either gleaming white or light gold in colour, depending on which source your believe.
    It and the other mighty pyramids and monuments in that region are all the proof you need that ancient people could build structures to an amazing level of engineering and aesthetic perfection.

    Having said that I agree with others that the devs needn't use that image as a template for Pelargir, it should be one of many influences in their designs. As far as canon is concerned they have almost a blank canvas for Pelargir. We know the location and the fact that it must have been a huge port and must have been highly defensible, having survived many sieges in its long history.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egorvlad View Post
    What I meant was that Portus was a huge man-made infrastructure and it was very neatly planned. Ostia Antica was a full-fledged city next to the harbor with very straight lines in fact.
    And Pelargir wasn't a sea-facing port. It was on the Anduin rather far upstream before the actual delta. Nor was it meant to be the main Numenorean port. Umbar held that title being a true oceanic harbor.
    Yes, very neatly planned but in a practical, functional way. Not just to look pretty.

    the empire that could afford to cut whole cities out of mountainsides
    Minas Tirith wasn't built quite like that, they took an existing rocky hill (the Hill of Guard, it was called), reshaped parts of it, and then built the city around it.

 

 

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