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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Loremaster in PVP

    Hello fellow pvp loremasters

    I see in many other threads, classes are being discussed whatever there is that can be changed.
    I havent really seen much post about how loremaster could be improved, inside the pvp today , so I decided to kick off.
    Note that I have much more experience with the red line, but this is of course based on all lines.

    Red:
    - The -induction trait we have in red can be boosted. In my opinion the other lines, where you can get -24% (blue) and -15% (yellow) is nothing compared with the -10% in red.
    We suffer more from terrible long inductions in the red line and blue line already has the zero induction on critical hit trait (10 sec cd). Yellow is mostly about instant debuff and cc, which almost have zero induction.
    - Cashout damage is to low. Where guardian's to respectable cashout damage, I only get 1k on crit hit, which is lesser then half of the normal searing ember dot.
    - The chances of getting 2 burning embers, upgraded 2 burning ember dots to searing embers and the spreading out is imo way to low. I dont see why we should trait them for a 30%. That's traiting something that works even lesser then 1/3 of the time.
    Especially the gust of wind trait needs to be changed. Long cooldown and a long induction time make it a no-go in pvp. It's a nice mechanic with the aoe wizard's fire, but it's not working right now. In general either increase the base amount on these traits or upgrade it to roughly 40/50% change of applying.
    - Fend them off. Please lower the cd on it. The stun on staff-strike was really important for loremaster vs melee. Please give it back to us.
    - Nature's fury. Increase the normale frost damage over time hit. It's way to low. Also an increase to the area (5 meters) would be nice. Also the 50% chance on a lightning strike, during nature’s fury hit is lower then the intentional hit from lightning strike in my toolbar. I don’t know if this is intented, but for a capstone trait and skill, this should be higher.
    -If the increase of lightning strike or almost zero change to Nature’s fury is going to happen (see above), I wonder why we don’t add the 35% capstone trait towards the second hit of lightning strike (20%+35%=55%). I am not really a fan of making something in the trait tree depending on 1 skill, certainly not the capstone one. I actually like this idea way more then above. If however more people think that Nature’s fury should be buffed instead of lightning strike, I hope we will get a change to upgrade the chance on the second hit, as there is nothing now to increase it, which is a shame. Anyways the capstone trait is imo to weak right now, since I don’t trait nature’s fury in pvp.
    - This is more like a question (sorry for being lazy), but is the +20% critical hits in elemental working? I have not yet time to test it, more because I don’t really know what skills they really affect.
    - Fierce lightning. The trait has a 50% chance on a skill that has 1 m and 30 seconde cooldown. The dot damage is therefore to low, since it’s the same damage as sticky gourd. Upgrade the dot damage or change the dot tick time. Otherwise it’s just another sticky gourd with a much higher cooldown and not even a 100% hit.
    - Why is the hasten sticky gourd and improved sticky gourd on separate trait levels, when ents go to war has the two (hasten and the skill) altogether in one trait? I sure don’t hope they lacked of imagination to come up with an extra trait in red… ( *looks at higher chance on second lightning strike hit*). Please change this to the same trait and give us some room to get something more usefull.

    Yellow:
    - The damage done by Insult to injury aswell as the bonus damage on ancient craft might need a nerf. As much as we can complain about impale almost oneshotting freeps, we can start complaining about this aswell. Fair and square.(I don’t really know why they put this in yellow in the first place)
    - The spreading of wind-lore doesn’t see m to work in pvp (own experience)
    - Pleasant breeze ……. Critical hit with gust of wind. As described in red, to long animation and cooldown. Nice mechanic but a no-go atm
    - The extra hot on beacon of hope is way to low. Almost half of water-lore and it has only a 4m range. An upgrade to the meters is essential.
    -Air-lore is being buffed, but is imo still to weak. I want to see creeps being scared of it, not an ‘I don’t care, if he has it on him skill’

    Blue:
    - Inner flame is a joke and I believe nobody traits it. Please find a way to make it slotable.
    - I rather see the eagle-friend go in blue line. I mean we have all the pets already at our access, I don’t see why this pet needs special attention to make it the only one, you have to trait.
    - Prepare for war is not scaled. Simple request to scale it properly.

    I don’t really have more to add on the blue trait tree, as this is the one I have the smallest experience with. I hope people take this thread serious as this all to discuss and I want to see more things added. At last some general goodies:

    General:
    - After doing much testing, with calculations, I noticed that all the damage increases we have in red trait line aswell as the legacies (+20%, +15% etc etc etc.) are not in line with the damage increase.
    Maybe someone can enlighten me, but for me 20% damage increase means 20% increase not 17 or 19%.
    - I want a general revision of the animations we have. Even with the induction traits, most skill have a way to long animation.
    - I have never been a fan of the general amount of morale that skills are costing. Why do we still linger with this. I am glad to see this gone. (which also makes room for another trait in yellow)
    - SOP:R … I think this is a hard one to discuss but I have seen the skill not working as it should be. I really would like to take this skill under the lamp again and change it.
    - Sometimes wisdom of the council doesn’t go off. I have heard other class with the same problem, with similar skills and I hope it will be addressed.
    - Wind lore needs to be changed. Other then for spreading (which doesn’t work imo in pvp against creeps) it’s completely useless. It doesn’t have to be more incoming damage. A nice debuff would be fine aswell.

    ./discuss
    Last edited by Remcosajax; May 01 2014 at 07:06 PM.
    Morondomir the Formidable.
    Lore-master rank 14
    My renown: Today: 68.794
    Proud leader of Odyssey

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remcosajax View Post
    General:
    - After doing much testing, with calculations, I noticed that all the damage increases we have in red trait line aswell as the legacies (+20%, +15% etc etc etc.) are not in line with the damage increase.
    Maybe someone can enlighten me, but for me 20% damage increase means 20% increase not 17 or 19%.
    If it says 20%, then it is 20%, only not in your sence. Explanation-example: You look at your dmg description and you can see 120% dmg. Then you take same trait which gives you +20% dmg. You think, that it is multiplicative (120%+120%*0.2 = 144%). But what happens is just additive: 120%+20% = 140%. If you await these 144%, then your testing gives you not +20% but something less*. If you would expect 140%, you would get exactly +20%.

    *a little bit more math: 140% of 120% is just 116.66%, what means +16.66% increase (your 17%)
    Ich bin kein Deutscher, sorry für Grammatik
    Eglish isn't my first language, sorry for mistakes

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    161
    I think every Lore-master will agree that the class is less fun to play these days. My overall impression is that the class is unfinished, not polished after the class revamp.

    Red:
    -I would even say remove inductions completely from some dps skills. The defiler has no inductions on all his dps skills since 13.1. It meant no big difference for defiler dps (I have ~1,3k dps on my r9 defiler now) but it meant a huge boost in the fun playing the class. Why not copy that improvement ? Defiler can throw his 3 gourds without induction, why not let the Lm throw Embers, Sticky Gourd and Gust of Wind in the same way ? Induction on Cracked Earth feels way too long as well. The big hit's inductions are ok.

    -by fixing/bugging Ember/Searing Ember dots our best and most fun source of damage is made ineffective and annoying. Best and most enjoyable mechanic before with 2 Ember dots and upgrading them - annoying, useless, bugged now.. I have 0 points in Dry Kindling and Ancient Fire currently.

    -I agree that the cooldown on the stun from Sword and Storm is much too long. Master of the Staff trait with the chance on stun was so much better. The lightning animation of Sword and Storm I still see as silly. Same goes for Nature's fury and Ring of fire effects.
    Fend them off trait is completely useless. Neither has the small increase in b/p/e ever saved my Lm, nor has the +% fire damage for a few seconds ever helped me take down a creep.

    -Like Moro I never use Nature's Fury in PVP. I'd rather lose this skill and Lightning Strike completely and have Ent with 2 min cooldown back as it was before the class changes. Both new skill were no improvements to the class.

    -Agree on Fierce Lightning being too weak. Maybe Fierce Lightning could upgrade Sticky Gourd's damage like Searing Embers does with Embers ?

    -The hasten skills have never been in my quickslot bars and UI. Agree that they should be improved, e.g. by combining the 2 of them in 1 useful skill. A hasten skill I would definately use would be one that resets all of the Ents cooldown.
    I'm no friend of crit responses like this or skill sequences in general. One reason why I liked the Lm was that every skill was available after its cooldown had expired. Now we have those sequences in everything we do (Frost/Fire-lore then Wind-lore then upgrade with additional debuff; Embers then Searing embers; Embers then Gust of Wind; Sticky Tar then Fend them of then fire nuke skills; Stun then Embers for Injury to insult etc. etc.) and they disturb and annoy me. I don't like to be caged in rotations and sequences, that's what I liked about the Lore-master. Now it is repetitive gameplay.

    Yellow: I agree with everything here.
    In addition I want to add that the Lore-masters debuffs are crippled, ALL of them. I only debuff unwillingly and if needed these days. What joy was it to see a whole wave of skirmish mobs with glowing weapons after using only 1 Fire-lore skill. Not anymore.. Single target debuffs, Wind-lore spreading is unreliable, additional debuff effects (Playing with Fire/Out in the Cold) overwriting each other, no ranged debuff - just terrible.

    Blue:
    -useless in PVE
    -good vs wargs but very limited against other creeps in PVP, pets still don't harm creeps
    -Cooldown on Sic'em too long to make it an effective weapon
    -Coordination has no impact with already quicker inductions and no Storm,Ent,Nature's Fury skills available

    List of recent Lore-master nerfs:

    Raven tactical mitigation aura removed
    Raven ranged debuff skill Distraction not working properly
    Wind-lore ranged debuff removed
    Fire-lore single target
    Fire-lore +targets legacy removed
    Fire-lore potency only 30% with maxed legacy
    Fire-lore miss chance debuff removed
    Frost-Lore single target
    Gust of Wind single target
    Gust of Wind miss chance debuff removed
    Gust of Wind induction/animation broken
    Deep lore trait removed
    Master of the Staff trait removed
    Burning embers +pulses legacy removed
    Burning embers base number of pulses nerfed
    Wizard's fire +pulses legacy removed
    Herb-lore root removed (only in yellow)
    Herb-lore +targets legacy removed
    Water-lore incoming healing buff nerfed
    SoP:Command +attack duration slow nerfed
    SoP:R duration and cooldown nerfed
    SoP:R has no icon in tanks vitals displaying buff duration
    See all Ends -crit debuff not scaled
    Power of Knowledge amount of power drained nerfed
    Knowledge of Cures only single target
    Light of the Rising Dawn cooldown nerfed
    Ent cooldown nerfed
    Test of Will removed (only in yellow)
    Inductions on most skill longer

    Pretty sure there's even more nerfs I forgot.

    What we got :
    Blinding Flash with Fast Loader function
    No cooldown on Fire-Lore/Frost-Lore
    Scaled pet's damage which still make no difference in pvp
    Power Sharing without losing power
    Wizard's fire AoE/Searing embers upgrade (broken atm)
    Lightning Storm cooldown shorter
    Sticky Gourd always Improved version
    Sic'em skill that isn't fixed until today (need to command pets..)
    Clever Escape skill..
    Last edited by -Tanyc-; May 02 2014 at 06:54 PM.


    Evernight : Tanick R13 Lm ~ Wakkawakka R10 Def
    Morthond : Mandridar R9 Lm ~ Cragstone R9 Wvr

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    140
    Agreed 100%...

    I dont use raven in raids anymore since they took that tact mit buff away. Especially with the mit nerfs it would have been very helpful. SOP:R needs its icon back too and it doesn't function in the same way so its pretty much useless. Give a longer period between cd and duration and make it at least cover 2 targets. Being able to SI a whole fellow was overkill but so was the nerf.

    BF with no induction in all lines is one of the best but also most confusing changes considering they took all the other stuns away and its also our interrupt yet all other class interrupts cds were extended.

    Clever escape is absurd and redundant when we already have SOP:R and so are the haste skills. why add another one? make it auto trigger.

    The biggest change is that I used to use and need all my skills in PVP and now I'm relying on just a handful due to the debuff nerfs, SOP:R nerf, and decreased complexity in dps skills- feels like its just BE-WF spam with some gust of wind thrown in. Tar, ROF, lightning storm, and bam there you go...
    The other skills have too long inductions or too long CDs to make them reliable and useful. Or theyre just straight up bugged.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Arodion View Post
    Agreed 100%...

    I dont use raven in raids anymore since they took that tact mit buff away. Especially with the mit nerfs it would have been very helpful. SOP:R needs its icon back too and it doesn't function in the same way so its pretty much useless. Give a longer period between cd and duration and make it at least cover 2 targets. Being able to SI a whole fellow was overkill but so was the nerf.

    BF with no induction in all lines is one of the best but also most confusing changes considering they took all the other stuns away and its also our interrupt yet all other class interrupts cds were extended.

    Clever escape is absurd and redundant when we already have SOP:R and so are the haste skills. why add another one? make it auto trigger.

    The biggest change is that I used to use and need all my skills in PVP and now I'm relying on just a handful due to the debuff nerfs, SOP:R nerf, and decreased complexity in dps skills- feels like its just BE-WF spam with some gust of wind thrown in. Tar, ROF, lightning storm, and bam there you go...
    The other skills have too long inductions or too long CDs to make them reliable and useful. Or theyre just straight up bugged.
    I can't really comment on PvP anymore as I don't play it since my vip ended around 12.3 release, but a lot applies to PvE as well:

    The biggest change in dps rotation is that there is actually a rotation now, instead of the more priority approach. At some points you could get a rotation, but the rotation was like 2 minutes long before it starts repeating, now the rotations are really short, meaning a lot of complexity is indeed gone.
    Raven however is still useful, the removed tact mits buff in all lines isn't THAT bad, since raven already had a AoE fire mits debuff and applies a 15% miss chance debuff if it crits with autoattacks.

    Something I find terrible is that flanking isn't even important anymore. Wizards fire is now part of the regular rotation, and on flank it heals both morale and power, meaning you get your flanks without even noticing (as you most likely use WF more than once every 7s). I like the hasten skills, because it still makes flanks matter a bit, but I rather had the importance of choosing what to get from flanks back: make flank heal only heal morale again (so revert the nerf to it as well) and boost the staff-sweep flank power HoT.

    Another thing that needs pointing out, sticky gourd's puddle DoT doesn't scale with Tactical Damage Rating, only with mastery, meaning if you level up without gaining more mastery, it starts doing less damage.

    I agree about clever escape, I rather had a good SI back (I proposed somewhere 10s duration, 15s cd with the legacy affecting the duration, so you could get 15s cd, 40s duration).

    Another thing I still want, is LotrD back on 15s cd. Getting that on a 30s cd was a reason for me to not go blue or yellow before HD, now we're just stuck with the long cd.
    Last edited by Vulcwen; May 05 2014 at 07:58 AM.
    ~Dwarrowdelf (Bomb Squad)~
    Freeps: Vulcwen (R8 LM), Vulciel (lvl 100 RK), and some lower level alts.. Creep: Shadowweb (R6 spider)
    My ideas on how LM should be: [url=https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?543323-LM-revamp-reconsidered]LM Revamp reconsidered[/url]

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Boston
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remcosajax View Post
    Hello fellow pvp loremasters

    I see in many other threads, classes are being discussed whatever there is that can be changed.
    I havent really seen much post about how loremaster could be improved, inside the pvp today , so I decided to kick off.
    Note that I have much more experience with the red line, but this is of course based on all lines.

    Red:
    - The -induction trait we have in red can be boosted. In my opinion the other lines, where you can get -24% (blue) and -15% (yellow) is nothing compared with the -10% in red.
    We suffer more from terrible long inductions in the red line and blue line already has the zero induction on critical hit trait (10 sec cd). Yellow is mostly about instant debuff and cc, which almost have zero induction.
    - Cashout damage is to low. Where guardian's to respectable cashout damage, I only get 1k on crit hit, which is lesser then half of the normal searing ember dot.
    - The chances of getting 2 burning embers, upgraded 2 burning ember dots to searing embers and the spreading out is imo way to low. I dont see why we should trait them for a 30%. That's traiting something that works even lesser then 1/3 of the time.
    Especially the gust of wind trait needs to be changed. Long cooldown and a long induction time make it a no-go in pvp. It's a nice mechanic with the aoe wizard's fire, but it's not working right now. In general either increase the base amount on these traits or upgrade it to roughly 40/50% change of applying.
    - Fend them off. Please lower the cd on it. The stun on staff-strike was really important for loremaster vs melee. Please give it back to us.
    - Nature's fury. Increase the normale frost damage over time hit. It's way to low. Also an increase to the area (5 meters) would be nice. Also the 50% chance on a lightning strike, during nature’s fury hit is lower then the intentional hit from lightning strike in my toolbar. I don’t know if this is intented, but for a capstone trait and skill, this should be higher.
    -If the increase of lightning strike or almost zero change to Nature’s fury is going to happen (see above), I wonder why we don’t add the 35% capstone trait towards the second hit of lightning strike (20%+35%=55%). I am not really a fan of making something in the trait tree depending on 1 skill, certainly not the capstone one. I actually like this idea way more then above. If however more people think that Nature’s fury should be buffed instead of lightning strike, I hope we will get a change to upgrade the chance on the second hit, as there is nothing now to increase it, which is a shame. Anyways the capstone trait is imo to weak right now, since I don’t trait nature’s fury in pvp.
    - This is more like a question (sorry for being lazy), but is the +20% critical hits in elemental working? I have not yet time to test it, more because I don’t really know what skills they really affect.
    - Fierce lightning. The trait has a 50% chance on a skill that has 1 m and 30 seconde cooldown. The dot damage is therefore to low, since it’s the same damage as sticky gourd. Upgrade the dot damage or change the dot tick time. Otherwise it’s just another sticky gourd with a much higher cooldown and not even a 100% hit.
    - Why is the hasten sticky gourd and improved sticky gourd on separate trait levels, when ents go to war has the two (hasten and the skill) altogether in one trait? I sure don’t hope they lacked of imagination to come up with an extra trait in red… ( *looks at higher chance on second lightning strike hit*). Please change this to the same trait and give us some room to get something more usefull.

    Yellow:
    - The damage done by Insult to injury aswell as the bonus damage on ancient craft might need a nerf. As much as we can complain about impale almost oneshotting freeps, we can start complaining about this aswell. Fair and square.(I don’t really know why they put this in yellow in the first place)
    - The spreading of wind-lore doesn’t see m to work in pvp (own experience)
    - Pleasant breeze ……. Critical hit with gust of wind. As described in red, to long animation and cooldown. Nice mechanic but a no-go atm
    - The extra hot on beacon of hope is way to low. Almost half of water-lore and it has only a 4m range. An upgrade to the meters is essential.
    -Air-lore is being buffed, but is imo still to weak. I want to see creeps being scared of it, not an ‘I don’t care, if he has it on him skill’

    Blue:
    - Inner flame is a joke and I believe nobody traits it. Please find a way to make it slotable.
    - I rather see the eagle-friend go in blue line. I mean we have all the pets already at our access, I don’t see why this pet needs special attention to make it the only one, you have to trait.
    - Prepare for war is not scaled. Simple request to scale it properly.

    I don’t really have more to add on the blue trait tree, as this is the one I have the smallest experience with. I hope people take this thread serious as this all to discuss and I want to see more things added. At last some general goodies:

    General:
    - After doing much testing, with calculations, I noticed that all the damage increases we have in red trait line aswell as the legacies (+20%, +15% etc etc etc.) are not in line with the damage increase.
    Maybe someone can enlighten me, but for me 20% damage increase means 20% increase not 17 or 19%.
    - I want a general revision of the animations we have. Even with the induction traits, most skill have a way to long animation.
    - I have never been a fan of the general amount of morale that skills are costing. Why do we still linger with this. I am glad to see this gone. (which also makes room for another trait in yellow)
    - SOP:R … I think this is a hard one to discuss but I have seen the skill not working as it should be. I really would like to take this skill under the lamp again and change it.
    - Sometimes wisdom of the council doesn’t go off. I have heard other class with the same problem, with similar skills and I hope it will be addressed.
    - Wind lore needs to be changed. Other then for spreading (which doesn’t work imo in pvp against creeps) it’s completely useless. It doesn’t have to be more incoming damage. A nice debuff would be fine aswell.

    ./discuss
    Red line

    1. Lower inductions some more , if you remove them then BE becomes OP which we dont need
    2. Ents CD should be lowered
    3. Embers ticks should last a little long regular or searing


    Yellow line

    1. Fix debuffs semi pointless
    2. Nothing wrong with add insult to injury youre not going to one shot any creep with the health they have and comparing to impale is a joke, remember damage percentage vs health percentage


    Blue line

    Nothing really wrong with blue line IMO and whoever said the pets dont help in 1v1s is crazy, the only class i lose to is a Reaver and ive won more then ive lost as long as i pay attention to the bleeds.



    Overview

    With the change to mits the Lm has to change the way he goes about business and they cant just blow stuff up anyone, i for one dont have a problem pvping the problem more or less is the way they've done mits and the inductions of our skills.

    Fix these things and id be thrilled


    1. shorter induction(animations add to it no matter what turbine says)
    2. Give us back windlore in its original form in any tree line
    3. SI was nerfed fine but they found no happy medium , fine one something along the line of 30 to 40 secs with a 15 sec CD
    4. Fix the raven for any trait tree
    5. lose the induction on wound removal
    6. Power regen stinks right now or skill power use does use alot, fix this.
    7. Longer embers and slow tick
    8. Ents CD( i dont even use it on my LI anymore because of CD)
    Last edited by LEGENDofALL; May 04 2014 at 05:47 PM.
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Arodion View Post
    Agreed 100%...
    Clever escape is absurd and redundant when we already have SOP:R and so are the haste skills. why add another one? make it auto trigger.

    The biggest change is that I used to use and need all my skills in PVP and now I'm relying on just a handful due to the debuff nerfs, SOP:R nerf, and decreased complexity in dps skills- feels like its just BE-WF spam with some gust of wind thrown in. Tar, ROF, lightning storm, and bam there you go...
    The other skills have too long inductions or too long CDs to make them reliable and useful. Or theyre just straight up bugged.
    Clever escape is not absurd in my opinion. From what I've seen, Turbine gave a stun-escape skill to all classes on a relatively long cooldown. While I agree taking it away would be a good reminder to keep SI up, it is not absurd. The haste skills, however, are absurd. Hastening the cooldown on Ents by 5% is useless.
    The BE-WF spam is a baseless claim, in my opinion. Yes, it is our primary skill set, but anyone who has done any sort of PvPing knows that Lightning Storm, SI, Fire-Lore, LotRD, Storm-Lore, Herb-Lore, Test of Will, BF, Bane-Flare, Sticky Tar, Water-Lore, Cracked-Earth, Ents Staff-Strike, Staff-Sweep are all important in PvPing. Yes, burning embers/wf is the backbone of our skill rotation, but claiming that spamming that is normal is a gross exaggeration.
    Again, straight up bugged? I agree that many of the changes to skills are frustratingly poor, but it seems that everyone claims that "this is bugged" and "this fails now." Besides the gust of wind spread chance, and the WF upgrade to the BE DOT, I have not noticed any. It seems to me that there are many complaints and claims to bugged skills, but no one elaborates on what is bugged.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    322
    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Clever escape is not absurd in my opinion. From what I've seen, Turbine gave a stun-escape skill to all classes on a relatively long cooldown. While I agree taking it away would be a good reminder to keep SI up, it is not absurd. The haste skills, however, are absurd. Hastening the cooldown on Ents by 5% is useless.
    The BE-WF spam is a baseless claim, in my opinion. Yes, it is our primary skill set, but anyone who has done any sort of PvPing knows that Lightning Storm, SI, Fire-Lore, LotRD, Storm-Lore, Herb-Lore, Test of Will, BF, Bane-Flare, Sticky Tar, Water-Lore, Cracked-Earth, Ents Staff-Strike, Staff-Sweep are all important in PvPing. Yes, burning embers/wf is the backbone of our skill rotation, but claiming that spamming that is normal is a gross exaggeration.
    Again, straight up bugged? I agree that many of the changes to skills are frustratingly poor, but it seems that everyone claims that "this is bugged" and "this fails now." Besides the gust of wind spread chance, and the WF upgrade to the BE DOT, I have not noticed any. It seems to me that there are many complaints and claims to bugged skills, but no one elaborates on what is bugged.
    Bugged, not manyt things besides the things you mentioned + wisdom that doesnt hit but gets on cd
    Completly broken/not working/fail.... A lot
    Like the post from Legendofall , there are some things that needs a dire update.
    If only 50% of my post makes it, I will be a very happy loremaster.

    EDIT: Pets shouldnt do common damage. While I agree damage has been boosted by a lot, this should help a mile in pvp
    Morondomir the Formidable.
    Lore-master rank 14
    My renown: Today: 68.794
    Proud leader of Odyssey

  9. #9
    I guess I am just saying I don't see many skills that are bugged, just skills that aren't good.
    I also agree that pets should do different damage types- pet damage is essentially useless in the moors
    Quote Originally Posted by Remcosajax View Post
    Red:
    - The -induction trait we have in red can be boosted. In my opinion the other lines, where you can get -24% (blue) and -15% (yellow) is nothing compared with the -10% in red.
    We suffer more from terrible long inductions in the red line and blue line already has the zero induction on critical hit trait (10 sec cd). Yellow is mostly about instant debuff and cc, which almost have zero induction.
    I disagree. Although I feel like red could use a slight speed-increase (maybe up to 12%, at most 15%), red is the harder-hitting trait line, therefore it should be slower. Having even a 20% induction speed with red would basically cripple the blue line in PvP use. Trait lines should offer variety and different strengths, by making red-line too fast, we blur the distinctions, and make other trait-lines besides red less desirable.

    - Cashout damage is to low. Where guardian's to respectable cashout damage, I only get 1k on crit hit, which is lesser then half of the normal searing ember dot.
    Agreed, almost to the point, when burning down a high-health boss, I hesitate to use mega-damage skill Lightning Storm, because I feel that consuming so many DoTs removes the benefit of the significant burst damage. This needs a serious upgrade, the cashout could easily be doubled to make things reasonable.
    - The chances of getting 2 burning embers, upgraded 2 burning ember dots to searing embers and the spreading out is imo way to low. I dont see why we should trait them for a 30%. That's traiting something that works even lesser then 1/3 of the time.
    Also agreed. I don't trait the spread chance, nor do I ever use gust of wind, ever. Also, the two BE Dot I feel is a little low, especially when traited. I feel that when traited, it should be at least 50%.

    -Fend them off. Please lower the cd on it. The stun on staff-strike was really important for loremaster vs melee. Please give it back to us.
    While this would be nice, I don't know that it is critical in PvP. With Storm lore, Ents, and LotRD already, lowering the minute cooldown on this stun maybe a little over powered.

    - Nature's fury. Increase the normale frost damage over time hit. It's way to low. Also an increase to the area (5 meters) would be nice. Also the 50% chance on a lightning strike, during nature’s fury hit is lower then the intentional hit from lightning strike in my toolbar. I don’t know if this is intented, but for a capstone trait and skill, this should be higher.
    Also agreed. This skill is good, but it is not great. The ancient master capstone is also rather underpowered.

    - Fierce lightning. The trait has a 50% chance on a skill that has 1 m and 30 seconde cooldown. The dot damage is therefore to low, since it’s the same damage as sticky gourd. Upgrade the dot damage or change the dot tick time. Otherwise it’s just another sticky gourd with a much higher cooldown and not even a 100% hit.
    Used to trait it, don't any more. While it was sometimes helpful when PvEing to get that last "smidge" of morale left on mobs who hadn't quite died from the LS, the amount of points to be spent in this line is not worth it. I would consider traiting it if it was 100% chance with LS, but it's not really worth it otherwise.


    Yellow:
    - The damage done by Insult to injury aswell as the bonus damage on ancient craft might need a nerf. As much as we can complain about impale almost oneshotting freeps, we can start complaining about this aswell. Fair and square.(I don’t really know why they put this in yellow in the first place)
    I disagree. While I do think the Yellow line needs more love than the others, these two bonuses alone have given me reason to trait yellow. I think the dps is rather high considering the line, but the fact that you have to use crowd-control (I2I) or Debuff (AC) to enjoy these bonuses makes it a little more reasonable.
    - Pleasant breeze ……. Critical hit with gust of wind. As described in red, to long animation and cooldown. Nice mechanic but a no-go atm
    As pointless as you can get
    -Air-lore is being buffed, but is imo still to weak. I want to see creeps being scared of it, not an ‘I don’t care, if he has it on him skill’
    ^This

    Blue:
    - Inner flame is a joke and I believe nobody traits it. Please find a way to make it slotable.
    Inner Flame is a waste of trait points. The healing is negligible- especially since during those ten seconds you could have been applying water-lore, and the increased fire critical chance (I believe that's what it buffs) is weak. Pointless skill, that never really has been very impressive to me over the last few years.
    - I rather see the eagle-friend go in blue line. I mean we have all the pets already at our access, I don’t see why this pet needs special attention to make it the only one, you have to trait.
    Agreed.
    General:

    - SOP:R … I think this is a hard one to discuss but I have seen the skill not working as it should be. I really would like to take this skill under the lamp again and change it.
    I haven't had any problems with it as of yet.

    The only other bug that I have seen is that Power Of Knowledge sometimes doesn't work- it starts the animation and then cuts it off, even though I have not moved or been interrupted. This is extremely frustrating, because I usually use it during a desperate time when my power level is low (thanks water-lore), and I am in the middle of a boss battle (oh, and it has a 1 minute cooldown).

    My suggestions for the class:
    1. Power of Knowledge needs a shorter cooldown. This does not affect PvP at all, nor hardly PvE, merely helps us serve our purpose in groups better.
    2. Water Lore power cost needs to be turned down a notch. Costs double the power of any other skill a LM haves. I understand 200 power a pop, 250, even, but the level it is at now is ridiculously high, especially with such a long cooldown on Power of Knowledge. Improving these two issues will help LMs to assist in groups more.
    3. Fix gust of wind. No, I take that back, do SOMETHING with Gust of Wind. Heck, even wind-lore serves a purpose in AM, gust of wind is essentially useless, and I have not used the skill in several months.
    4. Make the Debuffs AoE. Please, please, please. Make it a trait bonus for going into AM. No one wants to use another skill to spread debuffs, that's just a waste of mechanics and a waste of time.
    5. Make animals actually do more damage to mobs with BE DoTs on. This was a blue line bonus, but I have never seen evidence that it actually works.
    6. Shorten the induction and/or cooldown of knowledge of cures. While this is a bonus of going yellow line, I feel that it is just too slow, especially in red line. During 1v1s, it's a constant inner battle of, "should I removes these bleeds and let him whack away at me for 2 seconds" or "should I just bite my tongue and suffer through it." Again, it doesn't have to be by much, but the knowledge of cures induction time is just too long.


    That's about it, by the way you yellow-line Loremasters, two tips (especially in PvE):
    1. Bane flare, when traited properly, has a 7 second grace period- that's right, it is essentially a seven second stun followed by an 8 second mezz
    2. Test of will, when traited properly, becomes a 7.5 second stun, which means you can throw two burning embers before the mobs breaks out of the stun- two Adding Insult to Injury bonuses. When these critical, the amount of damage you can do before the mob even breaks out is incredible.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Clever escape is not absurd in my opinion. From what I've seen, Turbine gave a stun-escape skill to all classes on a relatively long cooldown. While I agree taking it away would be a good reminder to keep SI up, it is not absurd. The haste skills, however, are absurd. Hastening the cooldown on Ents by 5% is useless.
    The BE-WF spam is a baseless claim, in my opinion. Yes, it is our primary skill set, but anyone who has done any sort of PvPing knows that Lightning Storm, SI, Fire-Lore, LotRD, Storm-Lore, Herb-Lore, Test of Will, BF, Bane-Flare, Sticky Tar, Water-Lore, Cracked-Earth, Ents Staff-Strike, Staff-Sweep are all important in PvPing. Yes, burning embers/wf is the backbone of our skill rotation, but claiming that spamming that is normal is a gross exaggeration.
    Again, straight up bugged? I agree that many of the changes to skills are frustratingly poor, but it seems that everyone claims that "this is bugged" and "this fails now." Besides the gust of wind spread chance, and the WF upgrade to the BE DOT, I have not noticed any. It seems to me that there are many complaints and claims to bugged skills, but no one elaborates on what is bugged.

    Burgs didn't get another escape skill because they already had find footing. Why did LMs need another skill when we had SOP:R already? Turbine claimed they wanted to reduce skill bloat yet doubled a skill all the same. Of course clever retort is reactive and SOP:R should be proactive. But it is rather unreliable, despite 100% uptime in a rvr fight the other day, I still got stunned a whole lot.

    And yes, of course the BE-WF spam comment was an exaggeration. Yet you say you don't use gust of wind or the spreading and fierce lightning traits, so clearly it needs work Would you, Spilo, or anyone, be willing to post an SS of their PVP trait tree? I left out several red line ones as well but it didn't take me too far into yellow, just enough to get the upgraded debuffs and water lore. I haven't tried full yellow line yet in PVP but maybe I'll give it a go. I always did like that Test of Will stun and it made me sad to have it taken away. Ancient master capstone definitely needs a change though. I never bother to trait it when I go yellow line for raids.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arodion View Post
    Of course clever retort is reactive and SOP:R should be proactive. But it is rather unreliable, despite 100% uptime in a rvr fight the other day, I still got stunned a whole lot.
    Reavers have no ability to stun. Disarm, yes, stun, no. SOP:R can release you from a disarmed state, but that's still not a stun.
    Irin r8 Hunter // Arngar r8 Burg // Akthuri r15 LM // Vishus r5 Captain // Curad r9 (active) Mini

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irin19 View Post
    Reavers have no ability to stun. Disarm, yes, stun, no. SOP:R can release you from a disarmed state, but that's still not a stun.
    I didn't mean reaver, I meant raid vs raid. Should've typed it out.

  13. #13
    Pardon the mass amount of pictures, but here are some builds to examine:
    First, the "standard" MoNF line, with healing, fire lore, and storm lore maxed out from AM. Although it may be argued with the amount of defilers out, having frost ore maxed may be better.

    AM line, with lightning storm, and the important Sword and Storm stun. This is a surprisingly powerful line, because the bonus from AC lightning storm, and Adding insult to injury can add up quickly, not to mention maxed out debuffs. When traited yellow, Test of Will has a 7.5 second stun which, if you are lucky, can mean two adding insult to injury bonuses.

    This build is, I believe, the fastest line possible. I have not personally tried it, but it takes induction bonuses from all 3 lines, at the cost of some things, obviously

    This would be my recommended blue-line. It is fast, and good for soloing, but suffer from low debuffs, and weak lightning storm.


    Those are just a few "good" builds, any comments/suggestions?

  14. #14
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    Just my two cents trying to keep in mind it is a pvp thread too
    In the red line I would drop Nature's Fury,Dry Kindling and the Fend them off buff.I find the latter not useful,basically its small duration and big cd is the reason.Kindling not the way they changed it now at least and Fury is a long induction skill with not really a lot of dmg on it,I find it underwhelming.Personal choice again I only keep 1/3 ROF.Any points saved that way I would play around a bit in yellow and make sure to grab Ancient Craft trait.
    As far as yellow goes,from the two builds you have I wouldnt bother spending so many points just for some further induction reduction.I feel comfortable with the yellow and red one and I could use the points elsewhere.Preferably upgrading lightning dmg first before anything else in red line and I do like the further debuffs you can apply after frost lore.
    For the blue line the only thing I can say is that I find some times I could use some extra dmg and I feel extra ember dots is what fills that role easier and I have it in.

    That said I spend the majority of my time in the Ettens either blue or yellow.Blue almost always solo and contrary yellow almost always grouped with few exceptions when I may go red temporarily.I dont think red as a main suits me well but of course in both builds I spend a lot of points in red tree too.But after all LMs are always made from each player based on his playstyle more than other classes so have fun and enjoy all three lines
    Tilimir ~ Crickhollow

  15. #15
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    @ spilo
    Red:
    Dont trait dry kindling and the upgrade of the 2 be to se. 1st trait is broken and 2d is by the mean useless. I dont trait Nature's Fury aswell. And as much I want to debuff filers, in my solo build, I dont trait it, becuase I need the points for ancient craft bonus damage.
    Also I saw that debuffs are getting resisted a lot these days, although I dont know how it is with the legacy equipped on the LI. I did trait fend them off, mainly because it fits into my rotation, although I would like to see the cd being reduced like I told.

    Yellow:
    I tried this build, and although I am very thrilled about insult to injury, it's pretty hard to get it off against full aud creeps, since they only really reliable stun is Test of will. The other stuns, you only have a small shot to get be off in the stun. Although it's a pretty good cc line, I am feeling way to depended on Insult to injury. The rest is imo cc, wl and kite, till my target has it's stun immunity off. And then you got the problem with brand/stun pot and skills that realize someone from combat states. Again, I feel to depended on Insult to injury as the rest off my skill arsenal, mainly is about cc. It's a very good trait line against ranged creeps though.

    Blue:
    This trait line, well, it has a lot of issues. I agree that in terms of survivability, it's one of the best... But also here I feel very limited in terms of skills. This trait heavily depends on ur pet and well against creeps.. common damage.. ugh.
    I rarely trait this line, just for that reason. I know, solo u will be unbeaten, but creeps will get the note, and will call for friends next time they see you solo. And since I cant force anything in this line, my pet wont save me against more then 2 well played creeps.
    (I dont know why you traited the mastery thing btw)

    Ultimate hybrid build:
    Looks cool, but you nerf anything just for faster skills. On the first side wow, that will be cool. In the reality, I think you nerfed yourself with your own trait choice.
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  16. #16
    Thanks for the advice, Napoloen
    Quote Originally Posted by Remcosajax View Post
    @ spilo
    Red:
    Dont trait dry kindling and the upgrade of the 2 be to se. 1st trait is broken and 2d is by the mean useless. I dont trait Nature's Fury aswell. And as much I want to debuff filers, in my solo build, I dont trait it, becuase I need the points for ancient craft bonus damage.
    Also I saw that debuffs are getting resisted a lot these days, although I dont know how it is with the legacy equipped on the LI. I did trait fend them off, mainly because it fits into my rotation, although I would like to see the cd being reduced like I told.
    Advice taken!

    Yellow:
    I tried this build, and although I am very thrilled about insult to injury, it's pretty hard to get it off against full aud creeps, since they only really reliable stun is Test of will. The other stuns, you only have a small shot to get be off in the stun. Although it's a pretty good cc line, I am feeling way to depended on Insult to injury. The rest is imo cc, wl and kite, till my target has it's stun immunity off. And then you got the problem with brand/stun pot and skills that realize someone from combat states. Again, I feel to depended on Insult to injury as the rest off my skill arsenal, mainly is about cc. It's a very good trait line against ranged creeps though.
    I agree, I still feel like that this may be the best solo line. The amount of long stuns, mezzes, roots, and debuffs available really help.

    Blue:
    This trait line, well, it has a lot of issues. I agree that in terms of survivability, it's one of the best... But also here I feel very limited in terms of skills. This trait heavily depends on ur pet and well against creeps.. common damage.. ugh.
    I rarely trait this line, just for that reason. I know, solo u will be unbeaten, but creeps will get the note, and will call for friends next time they see you solo. And since I cant force anything in this line, my pet wont save me against more then 2 well played creeps.
    (I dont know why you traited the mastery thing btw)
    I traited it because I had to spend more points in the line to go further down, and it was preferable to pet health or inner flame.

    Ultimate hybrid build:
    Looks cool, but you nerf anything just for faster skills. On the first side wow, that will be cool. In the reality, I think you nerfed yourself with your own trait choice.
    I am aware of that. I don't use that build, just thought that it, theoretically, may be fun to try some time just to watch the inductions

  17. #17
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    Which pet are you guys using btw? Line depended?

    On topic found a minor harmless bug:
    When not traited crit coordination, but when using bug guardian, you automatically get the critical coordination buff on cooldown, when the pet crits.
    It's a minor visual thingy xD Doesnt affect game-play at all
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Those are just a few "good" builds, any comments/suggestions?


    For the red build, would it be better to trait down for the fire lore spread for group purposes rather than the increased storm lore?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Remcosajax View Post
    Which pet are you guys using btw? Line depended?

    On topic found a minor harmless bug:
    When not traited crit coordination, but when using bug guardian, you automatically get the critical coordination buff on cooldown, when the pet crits.
    It's a minor visual thingy xD Doesnt affect game-play at all
    Certainly line dependent, also creep dependent. For someone like a defiler or a weaver who probably won't be moving around quite as much, a lynx works well for best single-target dps (without having to chase them down). For reaver, warg- anything that requires a lot of moving, a BG to provide continuous damage (plus the handy consistent flanks). For Black-arrows, the raven, of course. Naturally we can't always be prepared for what creep shows up, so I usually go with the BG just to play it safe.
    Also, whenever I am traited red, I usually go lynx due to the trait bonus for going into that line.

    @Arodion, probably so. Those builds were more for solo-survival rather than raids.

  20. #20
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    Dry kindling is fixed wurg the last update. Wish they would have done more.....
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  21. #21
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    Other then the changes with Loremaster I would speak of another subject (cba to make a new thread)

    How do we feel ourself in spars?

    I still limit myself by not using water and wisdom, only the flank heal.
    Are there any restrictions? What do you think is fair?
    I never had problems with any class to fight 1v1 till now.
    Most reavers dont use their cd, so I dont. Weavers dont use reflect or burrow. WL ..... Last warleader I sparred used self heals, I didnt but I still won?
    Defiler doesnt use heals, if he does I do. Pretty pure dps vs dps fight.
    And then 2 classes I had the most problem wit'h....
    Ba that uses vital wound and revenge. Opinion?
    Warg that stealths, sprints and use cj stun. Opinion?
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remcosajax View Post
    Other then the changes with Loremaster I would speak of another subject (cba to make a new thread)

    How do we feel ourself in spars?

    I still limit myself by not using water and wisdom, only the flank heal.
    Are there any restrictions? What do you think is fair?
    I never had problems with any class to fight 1v1 till now.
    Most reavers dont use their cd, so I dont. Weavers dont use reflect or burrow. WL ..... Last warleader I sparred used self heals, I didnt but I still won?
    Defiler doesnt use heals, if he does I do. Pretty pure dps vs dps fight.
    And then 2 classes I had the most problem wit'h....
    Ba that uses vital wound and revenge. Opinion?
    Warg that stealths, sprints and use cj stun. Opinion?
    Only rules i live by in 1v1s in no store #### and brands other then that i let them use whatever and i use whatever, now spiders using burrow and getting out of combat to me is no longer a 1v1 just my opinion.

    Also unless theres a dumb defiler its pointless fighting one that heals and even if they dont heal a good one will kill any Lm who doesnt heal.


    Lastly the only class that has the upper hand on a Lm is reaver but theyre still beatable but this is my views on it
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  23. #23

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Remcosajax View Post
    Other then the changes with Loremaster I would speak of another subject (cba to make a new thread)

    How do we feel ourself in spars?

    I still limit myself by not using water and wisdom, only the flank heal.
    Are there any restrictions? What do you think is fair?
    I never had problems with any class to fight 1v1 till now.
    Most reavers dont use their cd, so I dont. Weavers dont use reflect or burrow. WL ..... Last warleader I sparred used self heals, I didnt but I still won?
    Defiler doesnt use heals, if he does I do. Pretty pure dps vs dps fight.
    And then 2 classes I had the most problem wit'h....
    Ba that uses vital wound and revenge. Opinion?
    Warg that stealths, sprints and use cj stun. Opinion?
    When you Spar against reavers who doesnt use their cooldowns, you can Esperanto the same from BA and Skalkers.
    If they play like you wrote you have to use Waterlore,wisdom and stun immunity.

    Otherwise i think Loremasters are quite OP right now.
    If you use everything nothing except good Reavers can kill you.
    And even against Reavers the fight can be very long and successfull.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasius View Post
    When you Spar against reavers who doesnt use their cooldowns, you can Esperanto the same from BA and Skalkers.
    If they play like you wrote you have to use Waterlore,wisdom and stun immunity.

    Otherwise i think Loremasters are quite OP right now.
    If you use everything nothing except good Reavers can kill you.
    And even against Reavers the fight can be very long and successfull.
    I always use stun immunity. On the subject that when the stalker and ba used cd's, I feel kinda lame doing it aswell. Since I know the outcome of that one.
    And when I start using cooldowns against someone who did the same, I see pots and more big cd's being used by the creep.
    One time I even got ganked, because of using my cd's. It ssems to upset some creeps when loremaster start hitting wisdom xD
    I dont know how other experience this, but for me it's tough to find any balance these days as I have had multiple good reavers charging in, using no cd's and leaving me with zero morale, before they even get 20k off.
    I dont want to use my cd's cuz they dont, but fights like that are boring as hell....
    Balance? xD
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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Remcosajax View Post
    I always use stun immunity. On the subject that when the stalker and ba used cd's, I feel kinda lame doing it aswell. Since I know the outcome of that one.
    And when I start using cooldowns against someone who did the same, I see pots and more big cd's being used by the creep.
    One time I even got ganked, because of using my cd's. It ssems to upset some creeps when loremaster start hitting wisdom xD
    I dont know how other experience this, but for me it's tough to find any balance these days as I have had multiple good reavers charging in, using no cd's and leaving me with zero morale, before they even get 20k off.
    I dont want to use my cd's cuz they dont, but fights like that are boring as hell....
    Balance? xD
    I think it depends on how are you skilled.
    If you are blue you shouldnt have any problems against anything.
    Red traitet i think its impossible to without cds against Skalkers and BAs who use their cds.
    Even against reavers it will be very Hard with everything.

 

 
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