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  1. #1
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    Fighting creeps in U13

    Hello fellow freeps.

    So I've started to do some raid leading in U13, and we're in an interesting time as freeps. Creeps are buffed up and on BW of course there are lots of them, so I wanted to talk about what I've seen in my brief time out there and make a few suggestions to you. For your vets that have been out there the whole time, this will be a no #### sherlock post. But not everyone is out all the time and there's some basic fundamentals I think we freeps might be missing when we have to take on the additional challenge of pvp'ing in this environment.

    I don't want to see a nerf bat coming to creeps. I like this challenge so I'd rather us adapt to the changes and get better, rather than look to remove the buffs that the creeps have gotten.

    So, some suggestions...

    Mini's, we need Bolster Courage to be used often. Because creeps are the FOTM right now, we're dealing with alot of them. While creeps aren't particularly good at AOE, due to the fact we're taking on many groups of creeps, it's like pseudo AOE because these various groups are attacking different targets. Because we have alot of different targets under attack, we need your AOE healing.

    Hunters, you need to be four deep in the Predator sets. We have to be able to use Merci Shot to cut their incoming healing. I don't care how much healing a defiler can do these days, if it's cut by 50%, it's jack-all. Plus, unless they've changed it (please correct me if they have), the neg-healing debuff stacks with the ones from Captains and Wardens. When we start talking about 85% negative incoming healing, we're gonna rip down whatever we're fighting. Also hunters, I believe you should be red line. I love the mobility and the ground targeting the other lines give us, but you need to hit hard because creeps are buffed. Also, you want Merci shot to be active at 70% of creeps health and that only comes with Bowmaster.

    Captains, have your bubbles. But they're not for you. Use them on your raid mates please.

    To all freeps:

    Trait Compassion and Innocence. Fell Wrought and Orc Craft damage types are physical. You won't see much shadow anymore.

    Take outposts. The days of giving creeps the buffs OP's provide are over. We need those buffs now. If you're a roamer and you want to entice a fight, take and OP and watch who comes to take it back. We can use the help because due to not having maps, we can't protect all of those OP's.

    Use pots. Creeps get buffs for cashing in things like wounds. So take those wounds off of yourself, even if you're not worried about the damage that particular wound may be doing to you.

    FOCUS FIRE. I can't stress enough how important FF is these days. If you can't get a target down by 5k within the first 2 seconds of him being focused, there's a better than good chance you're not going to kill him at all. You have to be faster than maybe you're used to. If I had to pick one thing over all the others, it would be this. Focus Fire.

    Neg-Healing armor. If your class has armor that will reduce incoming healing (off-hand I know Hunters, Wardens and Capts do) you should be making that a priority. Please get it, even if it's an alternate set.

    And I'd ask a question to the community, LM's yellow or Red? Love the dps, but would yellow be more helpful overall?

  2. #2
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    Looks like a good list. One or two things to add/change.

    Incoming healing debuffs do not stack. So a captains Routing Cry will not stack with hunters Heart Seeker. I've been reading around and it's said that no freep inc. healing defuffs are stacking.

    To you're question about Lore-Masters. I would suggest going whatever line gives the fear. I believe it's yellow, and getting the fear set of gear. (That rhymed, hehe) That will cut defilers healing in two, and they will need to be more careful with potting.

    Also, to some captains, your grave wound gives a -50% incoming healing debuff for 10 seconds. So make sure if you're grouped with a bunch of captains to let at least one go red line and use grave wound as much as possible on the focused target.

    "Thinking you can do something is confidence; doing something is competence"
    Bannerman, r11 War-Leader/
    Ryzer, r13 Captain/ Ryzur, Minstrel.
    Skill and Valour/Divide Et Impera, Landroval. .



  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by b4jet9597 View Post
    ]
    Also, to some captains, your grave wound gives a -50% incoming healing debuff for 10 seconds. So make sure if you're grouped with a bunch of captains to let at least one go red line and use grave wound as much as possible on the focused target.
    lasts 5 seconds :P
    Lugbur, R11 Reaver ./. Guthfred, R9 Captain ./. Guthblade, R9 Chamption ./. Muzluck, R9 Warg + Various other toons of different rank and class.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4jet9597 View Post
    Incoming healing debuffs do not stack. So a captains Routing Cry will not stack with hunters Heart Seeker.
    Bummer, that must be a recent change then because they def used to.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by 0987654321 View Post
    lasts 5 seconds :P
    Is it only 5? Damn the bad luck..

    "Thinking you can do something is confidence; doing something is competence"
    Bannerman, r11 War-Leader/
    Ryzer, r13 Captain/ Ryzur, Minstrel.
    Skill and Valour/Divide Et Impera, Landroval. .



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    To all freeps:

    Trait Compassion and Innocence. Fell Wrought and Orc Craft damage types are physical. You won't see much shadow anymore.
    Dumb question, since I don't do Moors much: Does FW/OC damage reduction continue to increase after your Physical Mitigation exceeds the 40/50/60% cap on Common damage reduction?
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Dumb question, since I don't do Moors much: Does FW/OC damage reduction continue to increase after your Physical Mitigation exceeds the 40/50/60% cap on Common damage reduction?
    yes

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  8. #8
    The only healing debuffs that stack with each other are the warden and rks I think, all others do not stack. HS has a 50% debuff also so hunters can get access to two different -50% debuffs.

    I'm a bit torn on the having my cappys run yellow line. The bubble and defensive buffs are nice but the offensive buffs that redline provide are too crucial to pass on with so many creep healers. The best would be to have 4-5 cappys in a 24 man fraid and split them up half red/half yellow but sadly its hard to find that many cappys nowadays.

    Loremasters I usually have in Yellow unless we have no champs and need extra AOE burst rotations. Yellow line LMs are vital to stopping melee trains and disrupting general creep dps and heals.
    Freeps live so they can die to me.
    Baglun-Leader of The Bloodhand-Ark (On extended Hiatus)
    Flanes- Founder of Revolution-Brandy

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor1 View Post
    The best would be to have 4-5 cappys in a 24 man fraid and split them up half red/half yellow but sadly its hard to find that many cappys nowadays.
    I'll bet my account captains have been in the top 4 most played freep classes since HD launch. Probably trailing the everpresent Hunters and Minstrels, and roughly even with burgs (who have no so surprisingly disappeared with U13).
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I'll bet my account captains have been in the top 4 most played freep classes since HD launch. Probably trailing the everpresent Hunters and Minstrels, and roughly even with burgs (who have no so surprisingly disappeared with U13).
    Yeah I have seen alot of cappys out but most of them are the yellow line, bubble self, ignore others, type. I don't really see many of the group first old school cappies.
    Freeps live so they can die to me.
    Baglun-Leader of The Bloodhand-Ark (On extended Hiatus)
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4jet9597 View Post
    To you're question about Lore-Masters. I would suggest going whatever line gives the fear. I believe it's yellow, and getting the fear set of gear. (That rhymed, hehe) That will cut defilers healing in two
    Silencing has no effect on defiler heals
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  12. #12
    Yes. Don't forget RKs AoE (3 targets) inc healing debuf + 50% induction (good on defis), and they stack with other classes inc healing debuffs. BUT can be potted. Thats is why....see below:

    If you have 1-2 LMs: Make sure they are both yellow line with fear set (perma block of WLs heals, which give a lot of healing in addition to defi's inc healing buffs). Plus with ancient master activated, you'll have up to 6-10 targets debuffed simulatenously, good for reaver trains (-30% melee dmg), and -50% ranged for BAs. Regarding RKs: if LM spams his purple debuufs, it will be harder to pot RKs inc healing, since potted one - is newest. And of course - tars, mass roots and mass stuns. In practice, all those LMs should do:
    - whenever ancient craft is up, hit it -> apply every single debuff by tabbing creeps (its uptime is 30s i believe), make sure u know how to use wind lore for improve versions of debuffs, once u done -> see below
    - Blind flash on defis -> other light stuns AoEing (forgot name) -> lightining strike/stun -> insta roots (forgot name) -> cracked earth (in yellow, roots applied 2 seconds after i believe)
    - tars whenever they are up + that purple circle
    - if in this rotation u got time, to frost lore(silence) some WL - do it

    P.S.: I've heard burgs have some inc healing debuff as well, correct me if i am wrong (plus induction debuffs i believe, again good for defis).

    P.S.P.S.: When u got yellow + fear set LM in raid - make sure u heal him good. Good craid leader will get feedback from WLs in seconds, and will destroy that LM for sure, at least im getting focused all time 1st when i use those.

  13. #13
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    It is also important, as a raid leader, not to disband after dying 5 times in a row in the space of two minutes.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor1 View Post
    The only healing debuffs that stack with each other are the warden and rks I think, all others do not stack. HS has a 50% debuff also so hunters can get access to two different -50% debuffs.
    Excellent point.

    I think all of these suggestions are helpful and would like to see more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldio
    RKs AoE (3 targets) inc healing debuf + 50% induction (good on defis), and they stack with other classes inc healing debuffs. LMs: Make sure they are both yellow line with fear set (perma block of WLs heals, which give a lot of healing in addition to defi's inc healing buffs). Plus with ancient master activated, you'll have up to 6-10 targets debuffed simulatenously, good for reaver trains (-30% melee dmg), and -50% ranged for BAs.
    Quote Originally Posted by b4jet9597
    captains, your grave wound gives a -50% incoming healing debuff for 10 seconds. So make sure if you're grouped with a bunch of captains to let at least one go red line
    Burgs, what is your neg-incoming healing debuff that's been mentioned?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post


    Burgs, what is your neg-incoming healing debuff that's been mentioned?
    Mediocre. It's the moors setting. Takes up one of your relic spots and is -10% inc healing on subtle stab. Can be put on both LI's to make it -20%. Low CD on Subtle Stab makes it nearly spammable but unsure if it stacks with others. My guess is that it doesn't seeing as the mini inc healing debuff which works similarly (-10% on Call of 2nd Age with relic) is overridden and erased by any superior debuff. But certainly worth testing to see if it stacks with Warden/RK/Cappy
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    Brandywine: Immanitas R12 Burg, Sueahpro R11 Mini, Falsified R9 RK, -The Blood Hand
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    Excellent point.

    I think all of these suggestions are helpful and would like to see more.






    Burgs, what is your neg-incoming healing debuff that's been mentioned?
    Subtle stab,if you have the moors relics, can give a
    20% chance for an inc healing debuff (don't remember the % though). If you have the old PvP set (pre aud) you can get it up to 70%. Best part about this debuff is that it stacks with every single freep inc healing debuff and is not pottable.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    It is also important, as a raid leader, not to disband after dying 5 times in a row in the space of two minutes.
    Here goes a lil fix: It is also important for ppl, who joined the raid, NOT to leave after 1-2nd wipes, especially this is addressed to all elitelist/high rank dudes, who act exactly like this. Instead - you can also give some advices to RL. And please say DIRECTLY - Dude, you suck, i'll leave ur raid cuz of that.....instead of polite versions, i.e.: i gtg , i have to help kinny and so on. Honesty is really important here And as well - give chances to new RLs to show themselves, instead of joining 1-2 of your favourite RLs, cuz they are not all time around, and we all love some action going, neither PvEing or something else.


    P.S.: Thx for burg tips. But I didn't get one thing: does burg get -20%inc healing debuff, or it is CHANCE to apply debuff (which then has % ???)

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldio View Post
    Here goes a lil fix: It is also important for ppl, who joined the raid, NOT to leave after 1-2nd wipes, especially this is addressed to all elitelist/high rank dudes, who act exactly like this. Instead - you can also give some advices to RL. And please say DIRECTLY - Dude, you suck, i'll leave ur raid cuz of that.....instead of polite versions, i.e.: i gtg , i have to help kinny and so on. Honesty is really important here And as well - give chances to new RLs to show themselves, instead of joining 1-2 of your favourite RLs, cuz they are not all time around, and we all love some action going, neither PvEing or something else.


    P.S.: Thx for burg tips. But I didn't get one thing: does burg get -20%inc healing debuff, or it is CHANCE to apply debuff (which then has % ???)

    20% chance with both moors relics, +50% if you use the pre aud pvp set wich makes it 70% chance.
    Second Marshall Tarpelion/Commander Huntarp/Master guardsman Vindicto
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  19. #19
    1. Burglar incoming healing is -50%.
    2. Only the warden incoming healing debuffs stack with other incoming healing debuffs.
    3. I tested rk and burglar debuffs today. Burglar did not stack with captain and Rk didn't stack with hunter(this should mean they won't stack with other classes as well).
    4. A warden can do -55% incomming healing which can only stack with 1 other class(2 wardens can't stack with each other to make -110%).

    In conclusion, having 1-2 wardens would be a good idea for any raid, but stacking every type of class to stack -150% incoming healing won't work because the incoming healing debuffs will just replace one another besides for the wardens.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by crl13107 View Post
    In conclusion, having 1-2 wardens would be a good idea for any raid, but stacking every type of class to stack -150% incoming healing won't work because the incoming healing debuffs will just replace one another besides for the wardens.
    Ya, I don't think we need to go that high, honestly. Generally I've found if you can get to -50% you're going to kill them. And that really shouldn't be that hard anymore.

    A couple other tips... If you're trying to kill spiders and wargs, alternate every dps skill with a cc skill. Effectively greybars them, or pops them out of their burrow attempt. Wargs and spiders are squishy and provide nice defeat responses. I know reavers are more dangerous to freep raids but kills matter.

    For the past two years I've thought it most important to kill whatever is on RAT quickly. That may not be the case anymore (and it'll be a welcome change) and we'll have to figure out specific targets again. But speed matters.

    Watch your hunters, healers. It seems people are thinking hunters provide the most dps again, creeps are targeting them. The longer you can keep a hunter alive, the longer it will be until they turn on you. LM's probably still equally true. Especially true for sexy bearded hunters.

    If you want to small group fight or solo fight, take an OP and wait. Someone is going to come along and try take it from you.

    And to both sides: Challenge yourselves. We're in a great period of balance, lets not wreck it with the typical BrandyZerg. If you're facing a raid, fight it with a raid, and see what happens. Calling in help against equal numbers is lousy gameplay and there's way too much of that going on in both side's OOC's.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    Wargs and spiders are squishy and provide nice defeat responses. I know reavers are more dangerous to freep raids but kills matter.

    Watch your hunters, healers. It seems people are thinking hunters provide the most dps again, creeps are targeting them. The longer you can keep a hunter alive, the longer it will be until they turn on you. LM's probably still equally true. Especially true for sexy bearded hunters.
    Do you mean a spider, or their hatchling? because the former couldn't be further from the truth if they're past r5. A spider with BoS is quite literally the least squishy class in the game right now, on either side.

    As for the hunters, this is a multifaceted argument. Unmolested hunter dps is certainly near the top of freep classes, though I'd still put a spear warden and fire RK ahead of them (provided the Fire RK isn't being targeted as well), and their redline bonuses and burst are very important to group success in the current moors. On the other hand, a redline hunter is one of the bigger burdens on a freepside group if they're being targeted constantly and don't handle it well (which few do).
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    and roughly even with burgs (who have no so surprisingly disappeared with U13).
    I'm still here, just been busy with exams the past few days. And I know of several others who are still out.
    Eniigmatik | Exploit

  23. #23
    I've got a few thoughts on the possibilities a Burg has in a raid since I'm awake and coherent now.
    It's astonishing how few burgs know their full potential as a class. But if you can find 2 well played yellow-line burgs I think you'd be very pleased with the result. One of the most potent things about yellow-line burgs is that all their tricks stack with other burgs. And when using the yellow capstone they stack with themselves. Meaning you could see 4 disables on a reaver. (Approx -52% melee dmg +52% attack duration) When played correctly debuff burgs could completely lock a defiler down or create havoc for a melee train. Not to mention that they have an AOE slow/Miss chance usable every 5s. Dust stacks so even 2 burgs could give all the DPS in a craid +36% miss chance which is truly astounding. Not to mention a root that has low chance to break and the longest actual stun in the game (4.5s with full audacity if in yellow line). And a 5s unbreakable mez. That said I know that I'm one of the few burgs that enjoys yellow line on occasion so it's pretty rare to find someone who actually wants to be debuffing. Just some food for thought. I'd encourage burgs to explore yellow line for raids. The builds are there. And it can be more enjoyable than trying to slog through 4 spider webbings and endless hinders to get to your target and dmg it. Just food for thought.

    *Disclaimer. I believe my numbers are appropriate due to DR. But I could be off by 4% either way.
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    Brandywine: Immanitas R12 Burg, Sueahpro R11 Mini, Falsified R9 RK, -The Blood Hand
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Do you mean a spider, or their hatchling? because the former couldn't be further from the truth if they're past r5. A spider with BoS is quite literally the least squishy class in the game right now, on either side.
    I dunno. It's only 10%. A hunter gets more than that from scrolls and it doesn't make him the least squishy class

    As for the hunters, this is a multifaceted argument. Unmolested hunter dps is certainly near the top of freep classes, though I'd still put a spear warden and fire RK ahead of them (provided the Fire RK isn't being targeted as well), and their redline bonuses and burst are very important to group success in the current moors. On the other hand, a redline hunter is one of the bigger burdens on a freepside group if they're being targeted constantly and don't handle it well (which few do).
    A warden can out dps a hunter now??

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    I dunno. It's only 10%. A hunter gets more than that from scrolls and it doesn't make him the least squishy class



    A warden can out dps a hunter now??
    BoS is 20% despite the tooltip on the skill, I'd venture to guess most intelligent weavers are running 3 of both phys and tact mit, which along with the armour racial and DoF pots puts them right around 70% mitigations, add in a WL banner and protection aura and they're at over 75% mits. Add in tiered up catch prey and you're looking at well over 60% bpe as well, which is the current cap for freeps (and basically impossible to hit in PvP gear). Reavers are roughly comparable to this in mits, but thanks to the nature of the relentless buff, they lose quite a chunk of mits at low morale, and their BPE is nowhere near Weaver's with Catch Prey up. WLs by comparison can hit the 60% mitigation cap (or come close) with 3 phys/tact mit corruptions, DoF Pots, Armour Racial, and Banner/Aura, where weavers get up to around 50%, but the 20% from BoS goes over cap, where a WL is stuck at cap. Hilariously, WLs have worse BPE than not only weavers, but Reavers and Wargs, even when the WL is fully traited for bps options.

    I'd be happy to compare dps on a common opponent if you'd like, or any pve target that doesn't reset bleeds (so no training dummys). A hunter will absolutely outperform a warden in a burst situation (which is generally favorable in pvp), but in an encounter over 20 seconds, my chips are on the warden doing more damage than the hunter, and unless its a hinderkiting BA, the warden is going to be able to maintain that dps in far more diverse conditions thanks to no movement or induction restrictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by J-Moneyforever View Post
    Just food for thought.
    I won't deny anything you say in that regarding the potential of burgs, though I would question the efficiency of what you describe compared to some other options. To me the bottom line is that in the current pvp environment freeps who know how to squeeze more out of their class, and especially in non-traditional ways are more highly valued than in the past. This is one of the few positives I can take from the update, aside from feeling like slightly less of a dick for playing a warden.
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