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  1. #26
    Keep on topic guys, some good info is being had, no need to let the odd poster with their own grievances dictate where the thread goes.
    Last edited by Bragard; Apr 26 2014 at 08:44 PM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ameranth View Post
    This blame for this one can be laid squarely at the feet of Turbine.
    Not really. While I freely admit the NDA stifled the communication many of us were attacked any time we voiced our opinion. If that opinion differed from the insulter's. Even when we tried to explain as best we could (and a few of us walked a VERY fine line with that NDA) we were called liars, and worse.

    One of the things we discussed on the council was loosening the NDA a bit and the pros and cons of that. I think the general consensus was that any "report" would merely be used by a section of the forum base as topics to debate. It was also decided that any "report" would take time away from other projects. They may change their minds this year, I don't know.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    No, that's one of the things that must remain hidden, thanks to the building NDA.

    I think Sapience/Rowan are the guys you ultimately have to look to for the answer to "why aren't we getting a housing revamp", and they pretty much answered already. The Housing threads came out with a maaaaaaaaaaaaaasssive bunch of wishlists. A treasure trove of stuff that would be totally cool to have. And the devs really, genuinely wanted to do all of them.

    [...snipped for length...]

    Generally speaking, the Council doesn't really hear much about the "implementation" phase of our suggestions until there's some kind of alpha prototype that Turbine wants our feedback on. So none of us really know exactly what happened to the Housing project once it left the design/concept stage. But I can speculate that, ultimately, the amount of work projected to complete the task was simply far out of proportion to the benefit of having it done. Or, at least, that Turbine utlimately decided that the same amount of work could provide a much greater benefit if applied to other parts of the game.
    and
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    To your first question: Sorry, the visit to T is still under NDA. Suffice it to say that if Rowan sneezes, Sapience has to wipe off his chair. LOL

    To your second: Housing hit every one as a bit of a shock. Again, there were and are some very interesting things talked about, and they still may be on the table. It may well have been a logistical issue rather than a financial issue. We on the outside don't understand this much of the time, but some of the systems under the hood as it were, don't like to work well with each other. Several times things don't work because the systems simply WON'T do what we want them to. And short of scrapping the game and re-writing it its probably not going to change. The devs are very good at figuring out what they can and can't do within the limitations of the systems. I know that they have their reasons why housing didn't get in, and I know that they'll get it in as soon as they can.
    lol Stupid building NDA! xD

    Thanks for your answers, though. I know programming is way harder than it looks. I was just wishing, as many probably were, that we'd have the customization that Sims 3 offers. Compared to that game, this game's housing capabilities are pretty stick-figure.
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    and


    lol Stupid building NDA! xD

    Thanks for your answers, though. I know programming is way harder than it looks. I was just wishing, as many probably were, that we'd have the customization that Sims 3 offers. Compared to that game, this game's housing capabilities are pretty stick-figure.
    I know. We were hoping the same thing. I'm not so much into the housing stuff, but my wife goes a little crazy about it. I've already gotten an earful about "THey were supposed to!!!!!!!" LOL I know that we had discussed a number of ideas to improve housing, and I don't know which ones they had planned on implementing. There is always the hope that they'll try and surprise us with something.

  5. #30
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    As part of the Epic Battle discussions, something I would be interested in is whether there was any Council discussion concerning the gating of two additional Trait Points behind the Epic Battles Promotions? And was this discussion seemingly listened to by the Devs?

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanteIL View Post
    As part of the Epic Battle discussions, something I would be interested in is whether there was any Council discussion concerning the gating of two additional Trait Points behind the Epic Battles Promotions? And was this discussion seemingly listened to by the Devs?
    Not that I'm aware of, but its possible some of them did. If I had gotten involved, I probably wouldn't have had a problem with it. By 95 2 points doesn't really do much. You should already have maxed out your primary tree, and 2 points in an off tree isn't going to do much. It did appear some folks needed a little encouragement to learn Epic Battles (and there is a learning curve to them). That may have been why they were put in, I don't know.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanteIL View Post
    As part of the Epic Battle discussions, something I would be interested in is whether there was any Council discussion concerning the gating of two additional Trait Points behind the Epic Battles Promotions? And was this discussion seemingly listened to by the Devs?
    That was one of those things we found out about when it hit the Update 13 beta.

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  8. #33
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    Did many of the original PC went inactive over time? One year seems very long when you have the possibility to work/read/write for hours every day.

    Which parts of the game seemed to be a no go area for feedback from PC? Are there taboos? Or did they asked pretty much about every aspect of the game?

    Did you work alot with engineers and QA people?

    Was Sapience involved a lot in the PC forums?
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Apr 26 2014 at 10:37 PM.

  9. #34
    For both kinship revamps and housing revamps there were active discussions and some right up to the last day and last minute.

    As mentioned changes to the housing code was a huge disappointment. Also as mentioned the housing code is just a "clunk' and really altering it isn't as easy as it might seem.

    The kinship revamps had loads of ideas brought up from the forums and some discussion revolved around exactly what a kinship does / what do they want to do in the future? Ideas got tossed about for alliances, better mail, what to do about the now UniChest in kinship houses and that the old permissions don't work so some new security needs to be evolved.

    That flowed into what to do about players with alts in multiple kinships (or none) and want to connect with others. Not all ideas were well received and one of mine on that issue was soundly trashed as undoable.

    When it came to which topics got on the table and which were pulled of the table and which got put back on, at the start of the council there were loads of threads/topics about everything under the sun. Sapience had to gather us up and basically say "STOP". There was a list of stuff that just "was not going to happen, so move along now". I for one, did not really believe (So Slow Sab) until I got an "attitude adjustment" several times and then I accepted that some things were just not open for discussion.

    Not every council member accepted this and sometimes threads that got started on said "off the table" topics. When other PC members pointed out that the topic "was off the table", sometimes this got interpreted as "shutting down a topic". It was pretty tough on those who wanted to spend time talking about stuff that Turbine said wasn't happening and members who wanted to focus on those issues that were in fact happening or were on the verge of happening.

    I would guess I brought up a fair few topics that some members just did not like and I'd guess I was one of the more obstinate members about plowing dead fields (I have acres now). Other members had better luck and their previously "dead field" came back to life. The best example of this was PVMP.

    At the start PVMP was "off the table" and nothing going on there so save your breath or fingers. Then much later on we got "PVMP updates what do you think of X, Y, Z" and did that make the day for some. Long discussions about audacity, creep mechanics, freep mechanics and lots of inner workings took place. Some of the returning 2013 PC members are PVMP enthusiasts and had visits to Turbine so they know more than the rest of us. It was especially hard for them because they couldn't even tell the PC what was coming based on direct conversations with the devs who work on PVMP (along with their other tasks).

    One thing we all learned is that every member of the Turbine team wears multiple hats and they all multitask into many areas. They work on many projects at a time and they are never without something that needs to be done. Their project timelines go way way out so they are working on things far into the future. There are aspects of the game that have no dev at all - none. Those aspects are done by devs who donate their time and weekends to bring those features to us. They are not part of the normal dev cycle and only get fixed/changed/updated if that dev finds time to do it. It's not always easy to spot these separate areas in the game.

    One more important item is this: without Sapience NONE of this would have happened. There are many in the forums who have not-so-kind-views of Sapience but I can vouch that he kept us together until we learned how to "be nice" and "play nice" so the devs would come to "play with us". He never once failed to help or support what we needed. He kept us informed as best he could about what needed to be addressed and how it was being viewed. I've had my share of bumps-in-the-road with Sapience but no matter how bumpy that road got, he never let it get in the way. He always stuck up for us and took the flack in the forums for us when we could not do for ourselves. Sapience does this 24x7 and it's just amazing that he can keep it all together the way he does.

    So next time you think he's off the mark, stop and consider: he knows more than you think he does; he's a lot smarter than you think he is and you can learn a thing or two from him if you stop to listen.
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  10. #35
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    Thanks a lot for all the insights! It really helps a lot to understand what is going on... and well, what not.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    what to do about the now UniChest in kinship houses and that the old permissions don't work so some new security needs to be evolved
    Can you clarify here? Kinship permissions have always been this rank has access to all chests, or that rank doesn't have access to all chests, and then you could put people's names on and grant or revoke access that way whether they were in the kinship or not. What do you mean by "the old permissions don't work"?
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laire View Post
    From what HAS been put down on the list as going forward for the rest of this year, myself and a lot of others are under the impression that Turbine's resources allocated to this game are minimum and that things that are more costly-- a new, multi-boss raid
    This assumes that a "traditional" raid is inherently more costly to develop than an Epic Battle -- remember that a new one of those has been promised for this year. There's really no reason to think this is the case. Regardless of what players think of Epic Battles, I highly doubt they take any less work to implement than other types of instanced group content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    I was just wishing, as many probably were, that we'd have the customization that Sims 3 offers. Compared to that game, this game's housing capabilities are pretty stick-figure.
    That analogy is actually more telling than you think. It's tempting to look at Housing like one small part of a much bigger game. But, in reality, a lot of what people want out of the Housing system could literally fill a full-price game by itself...

    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    Did many of the original PC went inactive over time? One year seems very long when you have the possibility to work/read/write for hours every day.
    I don't know how many dropped out. I do know that there was definitely a group of ~15-20 or so who were responsible for the majority of the posting. Then there was a greater number of Councilors who would drive by and leave some feedback after we hadn't seen them for weeks. (Not gonna lie, there were a couple of times when I saw a name I didn't recognise and thought, "Wait a minute, who the heck is that?")

    Not to denigrate the work of those people, either. I do understand the "lurker" impulse, not to mention the instinct to stay out of discussions when you don't have strong feelings about the topic, and their contributions were no less valuable, despite being less frequent. There's something to be said for quality over quantity sometimes.

    Which parts of the game seemed to be a no go area for feedback from PC? Are there taboos? Or did they asked pretty much about every aspect of the game?
    There were a few suggestions that got shot down for various reasons. And, as Sabriel said, there were a couple of items that kept coming up that received a "reality check", or really most of an adjustment of expectations. But, no, there was nothing considered "taboo". Remember, one of the first things we talked about was rank farming, and that was a very frank discussion that started from a place of "How do we define it, what does it do to the game, what do we want to do about it?" rather than "We're definitely going to ban this no matter what you say, so help us with the wording".

    Did you work alot with engineers and QA people?
    Yup. It was very common for the dev working on a specific feature to create a feedback thread and participate in the discussion that flowed out of it.

    Was Sapience involved a lot in the PC forums?
    He was the main point of contact between the Council and the rest of the dev team, much like he is for the community as a whole. The real difference was that others on the dev team jumped into the discussions a lot more frequently than they do in the public-facing forums. The NDA is one reason for that (they could discuss distant plans without fear of setting unrealistic expectations), but I think the sense of having a small group of people who are all committed to improving the game above all else was possibly an even bigger factor.
    Last edited by furtim; Apr 26 2014 at 11:52 PM.
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon_Blackbird View Post
    Can you clarify here? Kinship permissions have always been this rank has access to all chests, or that rank doesn't have access to all chests, and then you could put people's names on and grant or revoke access that way whether they were in the kinship or not. What do you mean by "the old permissions don't work"?
    Pre The One Chest you could set permissions for a variety of options on each chest (there were up to 3 chests for a kinship house), add in and remove players access levels etc. After the one chest it was harder, well impossible, to open the chest in a generic way without getting the entire contents looted. This did happen to some kinships where the open-door policy became a shut-it-down one because they couldn't limit access:

    ex:
    crafting bits: open to anyone
    pre-made-reforged-first-agers: Officer Level
    emerald shards: Leader and Officer.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    Did many of the original PC went inactive over time? One year seems very long when you have the possibility to work/read/write for hours every day.
    Yes, we all took breaks for a few days or a week or two. There is a lot of reading involved. Like I said earlier a few of us would lurk the suggestion forums and drag a lot of those threads (and I do mean A LOT) of those to the Council just to discuss, or let the Devs know hey this is kinda cool check it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post

    Which parts of the game seemed to be a no go area for feedback from PC? Are there taboos? Or did they asked pretty much about every aspect of the game?
    We were originally told PvMP was off the table for the year but a few of us kept bringing it up hammering points and as you seen with HD and now update 13 changes are being made but they aren;t happening overnight

    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post

    Did you work alot with engineers and QA people?

    Was Sapience involved a lot in the PC forums?
    I put these both together. We had people from all areas of Lotro interacting with us. Some more than others. As far as Sapience, he would start a thread here or there that would be a point of discussion like the CoC or Forums overview. But mostly he would answer a question is asked and mostly let us do our thing.

    One thing to point out is we remianed as civil as possible even when we disagreed. Some were happy with things and others were dissapointed. We are all players from different walks of life that enjoy different areas of the game. So for instance the trait trees. We seen a early design but like for me it was hard to say "Oh Cool" or oh "this stinks" until I could try it. When I tried 2 of the classes I play I was like Ok heres some suggestions but other classes (such as the RK) I was still throwing things out until the last days of the Council because I felt there was room for growth. Some of the other councelors were doing this as well.

    When it came to things like pricing suggestions (the horse trait) our opinions were asked because we all come from different walks of life. Some are Lifers, some VIP and some premium / f2p. So we were all able to say I would not mind paying X for Y and the ranges varied a lot. Turbine had to find the medium of all of that.

    Mostly, I look at it this way. There are things about this game I love. The story is big for me. That is why I play. No matter how many alts I run through i always read the quest text and look for new things. So to be able to see that process (Such as the new Bilbos Birthday Quest) and see how devs work their magic on the Epic trying to balance the lore with what leeway they have amazed me.

    There are also things about this game that I dislike. RNG? Just to name one.

    But anyway hope that answered your questions.

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  15. #40
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    I'm going to use my standard "feedback" questionnaire for this. I by far prefer open questions so PC members please feel free to fill it out and elaborate where you so wish

    Q1 - Name three things that the PC13 as a whole or you the individual PC member did well:



    Q2 - Name three things that the PC13 as a whole or you the individual PC member could have done better:



    Q3 - Name one aspect of your involvement in PC13 which had the greatest impact overall on the game:



    There are no right or wrong answers but it would be great for those of us outside of PC13 to build up a picture of how you all perceived your work.

    Thanks in advance
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post
    I'm going to use my standard "feedback" questionnaire for this. I by far prefer open questions so PC members please feel free to fill it out and elaborate where you so wish

    Q1 - Name three things that the PC13 as a whole or you the individual PC member did well:
    First off, all of these answers are for me as an individual. I do not want to speak for other members as they may have different answers than myself.

    Three things.

    1. Worked together in a civil fashion to try and do the best we could
    2. Brought PvMP discussions back onto the table
    3. Brought many suggestions from the players to Turbines attention from multiple sources (in game, forums, facebook, other web sites / blogs)


    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post
    Q2 - Name three things that the PC13 as a whole or you the individual PC member could have done better:
    Hmmm done better

    1. More open communication with the Community (Which I am glad we are able to do now)
    2. Influenced the devs to Get more alterations to the trait trees before they went live
    3. Influenced the devs to Do some alterations to the RNG and bring back Classic Style looting

    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post

    Q3 - Name one aspect of your involvement in PC13 which had the greatest impact overall on the game:
    I said it earlier in the thread. Bringing PvMP back to the table and finally seeing some updates to creepside that are continuing to happen and evolve. Hopefully they con tinue to evolve to the point where the moors becomes the most balanced it has ever been

    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post

    There are no right or wrong answers but it would be great for those of us outside of PC13 to build up a picture of how you all perceived your work.

    Thanks in advance

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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    That was one of those things we found out about when it hit the Update 13 beta.
    That reminds me.

    For topics that the PC found out about for the first time when they hit beta, was there much consideration to engaging with the public discussion thread rather than having the discussion in private?

    Certainly for the +2 trait points, I can't imagine the Devs weren't already reading the thread directly.

    I'll presume there was at least some level of debate in the PC forum, (since it's highly unlikely there were many things universally agreed upon) Did any of the devs way in on this thread?

    I'm intentionally not asking who came down where on the issue, as EBs are clearly still a matter of discussion judging by what +Rowan said Friday.


    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    Sapience had to gather us up and basically say "STOP". There was a list of stuff that just "was not going to happen, so move along now". I for one, did not really believe (So Slow Sab) until I got an "attitude adjustment" several times and then I accepted that some things were just not open for discussion.

    Not every council member accepted this and sometimes threads that got started on said "off the table" topics. When other PC members pointed out that the topic "was off the table", sometimes this got interpreted as "shutting down a topic". It was pretty tough on those who wanted to spend time talking about stuff that Turbine said wasn't happening and members who wanted to focus on those issues that were in fact happening or were on the verge of happening.

    I would guess I brought up a fair few topics that some members just did not like and I'd guess I was one of the more obstinate members about plowing dead fields (I have acres now). Other members had better luck and their previously "dead field" came back to life. The best example of this was PVMP.

    At the start PVMP was "off the table" and nothing going on there so save your breath or fingers.

    So next time you think he's off the mark, stop and consider: he knows more than you think he does; he's a lot smarter than you think he is and you can learn a thing or two from him if you stop to listen.

    What was the risk of letting a thread continue to generate useful information for a dev who might have spare time in the future? That a developer couldn't resist reading it?

    While I'm pleased that things went from 'off the table' to 'on the table', I'm disappointed that the things that were off the table seem so far removed from it based on how you describe it.

    I wish the 2014 PC wisdom in picking what areas to continue trying to encourage, even if they are off of the table up front. Likewise, I hope that Turbine will find some way to allow fruitful, civil discussions to take place away from prying eyes, even if that fruit may not come to bear until far in the future.


    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Yup. It was very common for the dev working on a specific feature to create a feedback thread and participate in the discussion that flowed out of it.
    To be clear regularly with Developers and QA? Or just developers?
    Engineering from where I sit, falls squarely in the developer camp.



    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    Pre The One Chest you could set permissions for a variety of options on each chest (there were up to 3 chests for a kinship house), add in and remove players access levels etc. After the one chest it was harder, well impossible, to open the chest in a generic way without getting the entire contents looted. This did happen to some kinships where the open-door policy became a shut-it-down one because they couldn't limit access:

    ex:
    crafting bits: open to anyone
    pre-made-reforged-first-agers: Officer Level
    emerald shards: Leader and Officer.
    There was no way to enforce these permissions automatically before. No log to ensure that someone abided by the terms. The multiple sections (we now get 10!) can acomplish the same purpose in the same manner as was possible prior.
    Last edited by Crell_1; Apr 27 2014 at 04:17 AM. Reason: Multi Post Merge
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  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    I think Rank Farming was the hardest of all to deal with. It dove-tailed into the re-write of the Code of Conduct. I think every member of the PC had a view on what was and wasn't rank farming. It was tough to hold the conversation in a "positive" tone as it was a very hot-topic
    Hi and thanks to the 2013 council for your obvious hard work.

    As a few of the other council members have also mentioned it as a heated debate, I would like to hear some clarification of why the subject of rank farming was such a hot topic.


    • What was the nature of the heated debate?
    • who was this between? (not individuals names obviously but was it player council versus devs or pc versus pc etc)
    • can you enlighten us to some of the for and against arguments?
    • finally, is there anything more that was forwarded by yourselves but wasn't implemented on this subject?


    Many thanks in advance.

    I won't share my reasons for asking to avoid this post becoming editorial. (albeit important to me to understand by way of you sharing a reply if you can)
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Not really. While I freely admit the NDA stifled the communication many of us were attacked any time we voiced our opinion. If that opinion differed from the insulter's. Even when we tried to explain as best we could (and a few of us walked a VERY fine line with that NDA) we were called liars, and worse.
    Same we can say when you and the other "we knows things you don't" guys started to attack other people expressing their opinion in the beta class traits débâcle.
    Stop pointin out to other and look what you and some other council members did in the past.

  20. #45
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    Sorry, but I have to ask this.
    In case you discussed the lack of new icons with the devs. (gear, crafting materials etc...)
    Are you allowed to talk about the reasons, why we have to wait so long for a patch? Is the artist responsible for them still working at turbine? Did they decided not to add new icons?
    Did someone even addressed that issue?

  21. #46
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    The game is worse now than is was last year , is that any fault of the player council ( prolly not ) could they have done anything about it ( prolly not ) summing up .. well i think you get my point.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    For topics that the PC found out about for the first time when they hit beta, was there much consideration to engaging with the public discussion thread rather than having the discussion in private?
    I'm not 100% certain what you mean by this... But I can say for myself that I was extremely wary of being perceived as speaking for Turbine. This is kind of true in general, but it's especially true for the things we didn't previously discuss in the Council forums and where, therefore, I didn't have a good understanding of why they were being done. So I personally preferred to take those topics to the private Council forums instead, for that reason.

    To be clear, though, there were very few things that we learned about this way, which is why it shocked me a little the few times it happened.

    Certainly for the +2 trait points, I can't imagine the Devs weren't already reading the thread directly.
    Yeah, they read everything, especially the controversial threads. They always did this, and it didn't stop just because of the Council. (Not that you're insinuating otherwise, I just think this is one of those things that bears a lot of repeating.


    What was the risk of letting a thread continue to generate useful information for a dev who might have spare time in the future? That a developer couldn't resist reading it?
    To be clear, this only happened for discussions that had clearly petered out and started going in circles. Also, it's not like the threads were getting locked, because that didn't happen. It sounds very dramatic to talk about, like Sapience dropping from the sky and building a sort of Berlin Wall around a topic, but really it was more of a gentle reminder like, "Hey, guys, great discussion, but keep in mind that we have no plans to do a new raid/new PvMP map/give everybody in the game a free pony this year".

    To be clear regularly with Developers and QA? Or just developers?
    Engineering from where I sit, falls squarely in the developer camp.
    I'm working in DevOps now, so I no longer see the distinctions between these things.

    There wasn't a lot of QA involvement. I think at least one member of the QA team posted a few topics for us, maybe? But when you look at the purpose of the Council, there's not a whole lot of reason to involve QA most of the time. Most of what we talked about were new/improved features, where QA's main concern would be in testing and maintaining it after it's done, rather than jumping in during the design phase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faitha81 View Post
    The game is worse now than is was last year , is that any fault of the player council ( prolly not ) could they have done anything about it ( prolly not ) summing up .. well i think you get my point.
    "Worse" or "better" is extremely subjective. Personally, I reject the premise of this question. I don't believe the game is worse at all. That's just my opinion, sure, but opinions are all there is on a topic like this.

    If you sat me down and asked me to sketch out my vision of the perfect LOTRO, would it look like the game does today? Probably not. But I'm not the only person who plays this game, so my perfect vision of LOTRO probably would disappoint a lot of people who were looking for something else.

    Really, I can't say this often enough. Every choice you make in building a game of this size is going to piss someone off. I think the most important thing the Council did was get everybody working together to the point where dissenters could say, "Ok, I don't like this, but I see that a lot of others do. So, if we're going to do it anyway, this is how it could be more palatable to other players who might share my concerns."
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  23. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin View Post
    (snip) I would like to hear some clarification of why the subject of rank farming was such a hot topic.

    • What was the nature of the heated debate?
    • who was this between? (not individuals names obviously but was it player council versus devs or pc versus pc etc)
    • can you enlighten us to some of the for and against arguments?
    • finally, is there anything more that was forwarded by yourselves but wasn't implemented on this subject?
    Rank Farming already had a very heated debate going in the main forums long before the 2013 PC was instantiated. So, most of the arguments in the public forums carried up in the PC ones.

    One of the main issues was how to define "rank farming" which in many aspects is identical to "power leveling" except it happens in the Ettenmoors rather than on the PVE side of the game board. There was a lot of "I know it when I see it" but this is not enough of a definition to codify or to enforce.

    There were issues about "how does it affect game play" and "why does it matter at all?", "Once you get max rank you're done so where's the harm?", "Power Ranking hurts no one else in the game and is an activity I can do alone or with friends, so why not allow it?" and more.

    There were issues about how rank farming affected the mechanics on the moors or did it even affect them significantly at all. There were discussions about what effect a max ranked player even had in a moors fight, facing another max ranked player or a raid of max ranked players vs raids of max ranked players as a sort of equilibrium was re-established at that point.

    Not all members of the PC were PVMP enthusiasts, so a good portion of the threads were from the more experienced PVMPers on the council who were more knowledgeable about the of mechanics of the Ettenmoors.

    There was discussion about what PVMP is or is not. Is it like a competition or is it just like any other raid or like a repeatable quest where the rewards for completing them are known and given out via a loot table. What effect did the access to PVMP rewards have on the rest of the game as commendations are not exchangeable on the main game section. All commendations are capped at 10,000 so no one can stockpile enormous wealth of commendations. If the rewards for rank farming are better rank leading to more commendations due to "easier kills" it had no effect on the main game and was self limiting because of the commendations cap.

    The discussion was very detailed. We all had to get past "it's wrong", "it's not wrong", "you're wrong", "you're not wrong" and move into the area of really defining it. It also got pretty heated at times because for every aspect there was a counter aspect to consider. It was difficult to look at every angle, especially the ones you didn't like at all and consider them carefully. This was really one of the topics that coalesced the PC into a unit as we had to drop our personal preferences and look at every option and every suggestion and every consideration that was put forth.

    Once we had definitions and reviewed all of the above and more, the really hard part came which was: What, if anything, should be done and how. How to condense this into a policy that everyone would understand and would be enforceable without huge manpower costs to Turbine. The outcome is in the CoC today.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    Sorry, but I have to ask this.
    In case you discussed the lack of new icons with the devs. (gear, crafting materials etc...)
    Are you allowed to talk about the reasons, why we have to wait so long for a patch? Is the artist responsible for them still working at turbine? Did they decided not to add new icons?
    Did someone even addressed that issue?
    I can only give a generic answer, perhaps one of the other 2013 members can put forth more.

    It takes a long time for anything to get created in the game. A long time. It may not seem that it should be that hard to fix an icon but there's art work, then it has to be itemized into a database, and then it has to be inserted into the code, then it has to be tested before it even gets to be considered for a patch or update.

    It's not just like they can drop an icon-graphic in at will, even if it seems trivial. There are a lot of people playing and QA has a big job to try to keep the /bugs down and even so, some get through ( ). So, nothing gets put in ad-hoc, it all has to go though the full cycle.

    Every team or group in Turbine has their own project lists and schedules. They work on multiple projects as once (like most people who are working) and they have deadlines, due dates, milestones and all the rest. Once a project hits the "lock", then they have to move on to another to keep the pipeline in motion. Sometimes that means that items that "didn't make it" are set aside while another project takes priority.

    Additionally there's the standard manpower issues. They had a layoff but there's no way to really know if that had any effect on "changing icons" but there are limited resources. Sometimes they have to select where to spend the resources: Fix an icon or create new content? Create new content or make chairs you can sit in with one click? Fix the horse/rider bounce or build new landscape?

    In short, there's not enough hours in a life time for everything to be created that every player wants or even what Turbine wants. They are all as passionate about the game as the players.

    For every item that gets "missed" or /bugged and is noted by the player base, lots of items just pass under the radar because of the effort put into those areas. When something is "working" you hardly notice it and take it for granted. Sometimes those items require an icon to be left unchanged.
    Last edited by SabrielofLorien; Apr 27 2014 at 10:37 AM. Reason: typos my speciality
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Faitha81 View Post
    The game is worse now than is was last year , is that any fault of the player council ( prolly not ) could they have done anything about it ( prolly not ) summing up .. well i think you get my point.
    Well, I hope you will apply to the 2015 PC when the applications open. More voices are needed.

    One thing to consider is that when you are making suggestions, the only thing that a Dev can do, is work with defined ideas. Generalities don't make code. Specifics with details and more details are "actionable".

    Generic comments are fine but they do not help the process, they don't add anything in to the mix of what can/cannot be done. They get emotions out and you might feel better after writing them but there's really nothing anyone can do with them.

    Phrases like "worse"/"better" mean nothing without context and it's the context that counts. What is "worse/better"? "Why is it "worse/better"? What can be done to change it? What should not be done to change it? Are there any downsides to changes? What are the upsides? Any hidden gotchas?

    The 2013 members had to learn to drop the emotional part of the arguments and move into the part about concrete changes and defining exactly what something is or is not.

    ex: Classic Raid vs 12 Man BB? What's the difference? Why does a difference matter? What makes a raid a "raid" vs a group doing "hard(er) content"? Why is one preferable over another? How many players access each type and why? If fewer players access content type X, how to make that content more popular? What mitigations can be done if content X if chosen over content Y?

    Phrases like "worse/better" don't answer the questions. And sometimes the questions have no solution or only a partial solution. There are few perfect answers.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

 

 
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