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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galuhad View Post
    Nice idea for a thread

    Perhaps someone from the 2013 Player Council could tell me if the subject of Kinships ever came up and what was discussed, if anything?
    Thank you
    It was discussed, but I don't think any dev made in comments, besides the "we would like to do stuff, but can't right now".

    It was a bit of a disappointment, since it was one of my main drives for the council run. Personally, i think its off the table for 2014 as well the very same reason Housing is in the backburner: It requires a greater revamp that Turbine probably can't afford right now.

    It's a bit sad really, since I feel that Kinships are the backbone of Lotro and with its outdated system it feels more and more like a soloers game.

    But please take my comment with the proverbial grain of salt. Turbine's openness with the Council was something short of epic. They just have other priorities right now.
    Razor // Lusitanius // Crickhollow ~ Portuguese Kinship //

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galuhad View Post
    Were there any discussions about changes to the crafting system? Most importantly, the ability to buy additional craft slots to allow more than just three professions per character.
    I know there were some suggestions regarding crafting but don't recall if that particular one was mentioned and I no longer have access to the forum to check. Maybe another council member can remember some crafting discussions better than I can.

    I will say that the very first suggestion post I made was to link your kinship revamp thread and that this thread remained quite active throughout the year, I still have some hope that some kinship improvements may happen (probably not as sweeping as your proposal) but I don't remember any official response in that thread.
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  3. #78
    so pc members going forward.

    What advice would you give to:

    1 2014 pc members.
    2 Turbine.
    3 fellow players.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    So my question is, Do you think this feedback-from passionate 'experts' on play styles and classes and from the tried it once 'novices' in those playstyles or classes, was weighted according to experience? Or was it all considered equally valid on the basis that everyone is new at some point? Or did it vary from Dev to Dev? The class changes (not trees, per se-but the implementation thereof) prompted this question, if you would like some spoecific context.
    None of these questions really apply to the way the Council works. It's not a voting body, so there's no such thing as "weighting" feedback. It's a series of open-ended discussions. Very occasionally, there would be polls, but the poll topics were all about feedback on store items. For everything else, it was just a bunch of people sharing their insights. Sometimes, an outside perspective could be useful to a discussion, but it was never prioritised over an equally well-expressed insider perspective.

    And, at the end of the day, it was entirely up to the devs what to do with the insights we shared. They were not bound in any way to implement our suggestions, but we certainly gave them a lot of food for thought on every topic under the sun.

    it may have contributed to the 'us' (critcal players) versus 'them' (PC members as public defenders of all changes) feelings that permeated Beta.
    To denounce certain people, whether Councilors or not, as "public defenders of all changes" is to deliberately erase reality for the sake of a personal attack.
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  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    None of these questions really apply to the way the Council works. It's not a voting body, so there's no such thing as "weighting" feedback. It's a series of open-ended discussions. Very occasionally, there would be polls, but the poll topics were all about feedback on store items. For everything else, it was just a bunch of people sharing their insights. Sometimes, an outside perspective could be useful to a discussion, but it was never prioritised over an equally well-expressed insider perspective.

    And, at the end of the day, it was entirely up to the devs what to do with the insights we shared. They were not bound in any way to implement our suggestions, but we certainly gave them a lot of food for thought on every topic under the sun.
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Actually, I think the devs regarded it all as important feedback. They used the council as a smaller mirror for the reactions of the players at large. The "valid contributions" comment was no doubt a bit of feeling their opinion wouldn't weigh well because of their style. That's a shame. Most of us welcomed all discussion. I even learned a few things about raids. Which, as I've never done one, was a lot.


    Thank you both for the information. Focus groups can work differently-from detailed surveys to structured feedback to open discussion. I was curious about the process and now my curiosity is satisfied. Thanks again.


    To denounce certain people, whether Councilors or not, as "public defenders of all changes" is to deliberately erase reality for the sake of a personal attack.
    I attacked no one. In my experience, in early Betas particularly, there were two people on the PC who defended all the changes to my class, including ones the developers later said were bugs. Just as there were other Beta testers who disliked them all, and criticised them all without actual evidence or experience. [edit: This abated by beta 4 in the class thread. But] Neither approach helped encourage calm feedback. [edit: Hence my describing the feelings/perceptions engendered in some people as 'them' versus 'us'.]

    There were also several PC members who provided excellent information in the same thread-both positive about, and critical of, those same changes. I thanked them at the time and do so again.

    I'm also pleased the PC threads were a positive and productive experience for all the PC members posting here.
    Last edited by Calta; Apr 28 2014 at 09:56 AM.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    To denounce certain people, whether Councilors or not, as "public defenders of all changes" is to deliberately erase reality for the sake of a personal attack.
    Was any thought given to renaming the Player Council entirely to avoid some of the misunderstandings about its focus group nature?

    If so, is there any insight you can share into why the name was kept?
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bragard View Post
    so pc members going forward.

    What advice would you give to:

    1 2014 pc members.
    2 Turbine.
    3 fellow players.
    1. Prioritize your suggestions and try not to flood. Respect that your fellow councilours may have diferent views, but keep your convictions. Sometimes someone has to be the devil's advocate. Turbine is pretty good at taking the core of your ideas. Don't police yourselves, that's one of Sapience's many jobs. Be aware that you don't know every angle and playstyle and be ready to concede a few points to make others go across.

    2. Give more feedback. There were some great suggestions in the Council forums that didn't receive a single line of feedback from any Turbine representative. It's a two way street: If someone gives a little bit of their time to break down a suggestion that he/she feels will make the game better, drop a line. A simple yes/no would be enough to, at least, be assured that the message got trough. Even if it's not possible, cost effective or technical feasible.

    2a. Don't turn your end-game into a Big Battle fest. Some of us still enjoy the Classic Raid and Instance mold. Good fights, interesting mechanics and charismatic bosses.

    2b. Kinships need love from the systems team. Lots of it.

    3. Don't antagonize council players. Most of us are reasonable and will gather feedback, either trough suggestions or other channels. When the 2013 council was announced, I (And I'm sure some others) made myself available to gather feedback and suggestions trough either forum PM, my personal twitter handle and trough my in-game characters, but I can count maybe two people who used any of those channels to bring their ideas/suggestions/fears to me.

    3a. Understand the Turbine is running a business. Somethins you see now have been in the drawing board for maybe 2 years or more. Sometimes it's just not possible to change something in the next update or the next patch. Be patient and be civil. If you have a suggestions, use the suggestion forum. Most of us would look at all new threads in that sub-forum. Maybe General Discussion has a little more visibility from the general forumites, but it's hard to break the good ideas from all the fanboy/troll/hater noise. Be structured and clear on your suggestions, even if you have to make more than one thread for similar system changes. It's easier to add a new room than to build a new house from scratch.
    Razor // Lusitanius // Crickhollow ~ Portuguese Kinship //

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    Okay, now that NDA is dropped, I have a question. Can someone from the 2013 Player Council who visited Turbine either confirm or deny that Sapience's desk is within view and range of Rowan's? No, really! Are we sure it'll be noticed if he drops a few more hints about things like the new class, the areas to come with 2014, etc.?
    Actually, as I recall the PC visited right around Halloween and at that time Rowan was still involved with DDO, so no, his desk wasn't anywhere near Sapience's.

    It is now, however.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Was any thought given to renaming the Player Council entirely to avoid some of the misunderstandings about its focus group nature?

    If so, is there any insight you can share into why the name was kept?
    It didn't come up. I also doubt it would matter, in the end. It's not called the "Player Congress", after all, yet the most common misconception I see about the Council is people assuming it works like one.

    As Sapience has said before, it's called a "Council" after the White Council and Council of Elrond. Strangely, though, nobody tried to break up an argument by shouting, "I WILL TAKE IT! I WILL TAKE THE RING TO MORDOR!" Maybe in 2014.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bragard View Post
    so pc members going forward.

    What advice would you give to:

    1 2014 pc members.
    2 Turbine.
    3 fellow players.
    Turbine already has pretty much all the advice I could think of. As for the 2014 PC and the player base as a whole, I have the same two bits of advice for both of them, about how to write a good suggestion...

    1) "Why" is more important than "What"

    In the sense that my platonic ideal of the perfect suggestion looks like this (following Sapience's suggestion guidelines will get you something similar):

    • State the problem you want to solve.
    • Explain WHY the problem is a problem.
    • Describe your solution.
    • Explain WHY your solution solves the problem.


    When following this pattern, your "why" paragraphs should be longer than the "what" paragraphs that precede them. That's partly because it's takes longer to justify something than describe it and partly because the justification for doing something is, IMO, far more important than a lengthy description of what the "something" is.

    There are multiple reasons why I think justifications are more important than descriptions.

    When it comes to explaining why a problem needs to be solved, the reason is pretty obvious. Namely, other people might not agree that your problem is a problem that needs a solution in the first place. It's easier to work with them when you convince them (or at least try to convince them) up-front, before they see what your solution is. People are more likely to dismiss your suggestion outright if they don't think the problem it solves is a problem worth solving.

    As for needing to explain why the solution is a valid solution, that one's a bit more subtle. But the reason is that writing up the answer to the "why" question is a vitally important verification step. It's tempting to think that the "correctness" of the solution is self-evidently obvious, if you simply compare the facts of the solution to the facts of the problem. But it's rarely actually the case, in my experience. When you're making a suggestion, you need to be on guard against falling in love with your idea so much that you lose track of what you were trying to solve. If you can't explain why your solution works, then the odds are that it doesn't. So doing that work before pressing submit will ultimately save time and lead to a better solution in the long run, even if it results in you heading back to the drawing board a couple of times.

    (Though I'll add: It doesn't always hurt to make a suggestion even if you can't express why you think it should work. You don't even necessarily need to have a proposed solution, if your statement and justification of the problem are good enough. Someone else might be able to pick up the idea and fill in the gaps you're missing. However, I would discourage posing a problem if you can't explain why it's a problem. Because if you can't express that, odds are it might just be a matter of taste, which isn't something that can be objectively solved. YMMV, but that's something I feel quite strongly about.)

    2) Recalibrate your definition of "success"

    Nobody's an auteur here. LOTRO isn't a solo project put out by some indie game designer who cares more about putting his brilliant vision out in the world than about crafting an experience that a large number of people will find entertaining and satisfying. All of which is to say that it's incredibly unlikely that your unique and special snowflake of an idea will be implemented in exactly the form you envisioned. It happened to me exactly once in the whole time I was on the Council, and that's only because my suggestion was such a simple and obvious take on the problem that there really wasn't any other way to do it, at least not feasibly, in the time available to tackle the problem.

    So, your definition of success can't be "I got my suggestion implemented". That's not a realistic goal. Rather, you should define success as "I got my problem solved". To a certain extent, and this dovetails with my previous point, this means that accurately stating (and justifying) a problem is way more important than articulating a really detailed solution. Because the odds are someone else will come along with either a modification of your suggestion or a totally different counter-suggestion that solves the problem way better than yours. When this happens, you need to not have an ego about failing to get your way and just be happy that the problem was addressed successfully.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by kickman77 View Post
    We had a rather lengthy dicsussion on housing and were just as shocked as everyone else when it was announced that it was not happening this year



    Yes, there were a few discussions on kinships one of those was generated from a huge thread in the suggestion forums. Hopefully some of the things in that thread will eventually see the light of day.

    One thing not a lot of people realize is that when a suggestion is given if they decide to do it, they have to budget for it, decide when to implement it. Program it, QA it, Debug it, QA it again, Beta test it, than release it. Believe it or not this takes A LOT of time. So things we discussed were able to be done quickly while others may make it in sometime this year or next year.
    I would like to take this chance to clear something up as I got a few PMs on the above quote. No where above do I mention at all that Housing is coming. It has already been stated by Turbine that housing is not coming this year. I can not speak for what is on the table for next year but can assure those that PM me thinking I was trying to be deceptive with my post I was not. I was simply stating to the person who asked that we had a very lengthy discussion on housing as a whole and I personally was shocked when the announcement was made that it was off the table. I was also very upset as I was looking forward to some of the housing changes that were discussed and personally think it was a mistake to take it off the table.

    For the second part, I was again saying yes we discussed Kinships and even discussed the thread that was currently happening within the suggestion forums. I state that I HOPE some of those things in that thread will see the light of day. I said no where that they WILL, but that I HOPE they will

    Now seperately, having no impact on my other 2 statements, I generalize why some things make it into the game quickly and something take time. It was in the case of any suggestion Turbine approves, not just housing or kinships.. But ANYTHING they approve to be added to the game has to go through those steps which is why it takes time, and why some things we discussed as a Council may find there way into the game later this year, because things do not happen overnight. If Turbine takes ANY of our suggestions and decides to add them, they have to go through those actionable steps.

    So sorry for any confusion anyone may have had when reading my above statement. But they were three seperate topics that I was commenting on. I am also not a spokesman for Turbine and would never tell anyone something is coming to the game, until it hits the live servers and everyone can play it.
    Last edited by kickman77; Apr 28 2014 at 11:53 AM.
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    It didn't come up. I also doubt it would matter, in the end. It's not called the "Player Congress", after all, yet the most common misconception I see about the Council is people assuming it works like one.

    As Sapience has said before, it's called a "Council" after the White Council and Council of Elrond. Strangely, though, nobody tried to break up an argument by shouting, "I WILL TAKE IT! I WILL TAKE THE RING TO MORDOR!" Maybe in 2014.



    Turbine already has pretty much all the advice I could think of. As for the 2014 PC and the player base as a whole, I have the same two bits of advice for both of them, about how to write a good suggestion...

    1) "Why" is more important than "What"

    In the sense that my platonic ideal of the perfect suggestion looks like this (following Sapience's suggestion guidelines will get you something similar):

    • State the problem you want to solve.
    • Explain WHY the problem is a problem.
    • Describe your solution.
    • Explain WHY your solution solves the problem.


    When following this pattern, your "why" paragraphs should be longer than the "what" paragraphs that precede them. That's partly because it's takes longer to justify something than describe it and partly because the justification for doing something is, IMO, far more important than a lengthy description of what the "something" is.

    There are multiple reasons why I think justifications are more important than descriptions.

    When it comes to explaining why a problem needs to be solved, the reason is pretty obvious. Namely, other people might not agree that your problem is a problem that needs a solution in the first place. It's easier to work with them when you convince them (or at least try to convince them) up-front, before they see what your solution is. People are more likely to dismiss your suggestion outright if they don't think the problem it solves is a problem worth solving.

    As for needing to explain why the solution is a valid solution, that one's a bit more subtle. But the reason is that writing up the answer to the "why" question is a vitally important verification step. It's tempting to think that the "correctness" of the solution is self-evidently obvious, if you simply compare the facts of the solution to the facts of the problem. But it's rarely actually the case, in my experience. When you're making a suggestion, you need to be on guard against falling in love with your idea so much that you lose track of what you were trying to solve. If you can't explain why your solution works, then the odds are that it doesn't. So doing that work before pressing submit will ultimately save time and lead to a better solution in the long run, even if it results in you heading back to the drawing board a couple of times.

    (Though I'll add: It doesn't always hurt to make a suggestion even if you can't express why you think it should work. You don't even necessarily need to have a proposed solution, if your statement and justification of the problem are good enough. Someone else might be able to pick up the idea and fill in the gaps you're missing. However, I would discourage posing a problem if you can't explain why it's a problem. Because if you can't express that, odds are it might just be a matter of taste, which isn't something that can be objectively solved. YMMV, but that's something I feel quite strongly about.)

    2) Recalibrate your definition of "success"

    Nobody's an auteur here. LOTRO isn't a solo project put out by some indie game designer who cares more about putting his brilliant vision out in the world than about crafting an experience that a large number of people will find entertaining and satisfying. All of which is to say that it's incredibly unlikely that your unique and special snowflake of an idea will be implemented in exactly the form you envisioned. It happened to me exactly once in the whole time I was on the Council, and that's only because my suggestion was such a simple and obvious take on the problem that there really wasn't any other way to do it, at least not feasibly, in the time available to tackle the problem.

    So, your definition of success can't be "I got my suggestion implemented". That's not a realistic goal. Rather, you should define success as "I got my problem solved". To a certain extent, and this dovetails with my previous point, this means that accurately stating (and justifying) a problem is way more important than articulating a really detailed solution. Because the odds are someone else will come along with either a modification of your suggestion or a totally different counter-suggestion that solves the problem way better than yours. When this happens, you need to not have an ego about failing to get your way and just be happy that the problem was addressed successfully.
    1) I seriously thought about it at times. Or quoting Leonard Nimoy's ridiculous Bilbo song.

    2) Very well said.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galahadur View Post
    1. Prioritize your suggestions and try not to flood. Respect that your fellow councilours may have diferent views, but keep your convictions. Sometimes someone has to be the devil's advocate. Turbine is pretty good at taking the core of your ideas. Don't police yourselves, that's one of Sapience's many jobs. Be aware that you don't know every angle and playstyle and be ready to concede a few points to make others go across.

    2. Give more feedback. There were some great suggestions in the Council forums that didn't receive a single line of feedback from any Turbine representative. It's a two way street: If someone gives a little bit of their time to break down a suggestion that he/she feels will make the game better, drop a line. A simple yes/no would be enough to, at least, be assured that the message got trough. Even if it's not possible, cost effective or technical feasible.

    2a. Don't turn your end-game into a Big Battle fest. Some of us still enjoy the Classic Raid and Instance mold. Good fights, interesting mechanics and charismatic bosses.

    2b. Kinships need love from the systems team. Lots of it.

    3. Don't antagonize council players. Most of us are reasonable and will gather feedback, either trough suggestions or other channels. When the 2013 council was announced, I (And I'm sure some others) made myself available to gather feedback and suggestions trough either forum PM, my personal twitter handle and trough my in-game characters, but I can count maybe two people who used any of those channels to bring their ideas/suggestions/fears to me.

    3a. Understand the Turbine is running a business. Somethins you see now have been in the drawing board for maybe 2 years or more. Sometimes it's just not possible to change something in the next update or the next patch. Be patient and be civil. If you have a suggestions, use the suggestion forum. Most of us would look at all new threads in that sub-forum. Maybe General Discussion has a little more visibility from the general forumites, but it's hard to break the good ideas from all the fanboy/troll/hater noise. Be structured and clear on your suggestions, even if you have to make more than one thread for similar system changes. It's easier to add a new room than to build a new house from scratch.
    1: I agree with this fully. This is really important, btw.
    And I think this is something that new Councillors should be taking to heart.

    2a: I agree with this also. Running different types of content is good, it's good to mix it up a bit to keep things fresh.
    2b: Yes, for the love of Eru! Absolutely needs to have love given to it, the kinship system does.

    3: And this is exactly what I think needs to be taken aboard by all. Both 3 and 3a:
    Hir i Meigol Bruinen/High Council Member of the EoI/Of the Exiles of the Hidden City/Meigol Bruinen, Uncle Seregnin's Misguided Children, Curse the name of Maeglin, the Treacherous Villain, forever, may he rot in the Halls of Mandos for all time....
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  13. #88
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    Some great posts in here, both from my fellow 2013 members and others.

    This thread really is a lot like what working on the Council was like. Lots (and lots and lots) of posts, all with views and opinions. Some more detailed than others, but all open to comment, criticism (constructive, not antagonistic), and elaboration. We also derailed a lot of threads, but kept opening new topics when things got too far afield. There were a lot of "Blue Names" posting right in-line with the Council members, and it really seemed a dialog more than a glorified wish-list or survey.

    I am a real believer that dialog is what the Council is about. Sure, sometimes I wished for a bit more from the Dev/Team/Manager side, but I also fully understand why often there *can't* be, even in an NDA environment, like the Council.

    I've seen a lot of this before, and in this thread, but I think it bears repeating (a lot), because it's really key:
    • Turbine is a business; as such, they aren't about to do things they believe will harm the company or the assets of the company.
    • Do through Dialog. It isn't enough to stand and demand, you have to present your case, in a calm and reasonable manner.
    • There has to be mutual respect for anything good to happen. You hurt your cause by indulging in tantrums or any disrespectful attitude.
    • Working towards something is easier than working against it. Hate something? Work on changing it, you'll have more people helping that than trying to get it eliminated or undone.



    I would tell the 2014 Council:
    • Don't think "it isn't my area"... your opinion is often *more* valuable for being objective, even if you have to ask about the system being discussed because you don't do it.
    • Comment, even if it is "Me, too.". Just because one person says something, it isn't always obvious how many feel that way, unless they speak. Without comment, the best idea looks like a passing thought.
    • Try new things in the game. You may find it really isn't your cup of tea, but you'll gain better insight for those folks who do.
    • Beware of talks that range into the wee hours in hotel lobbies. When the cleaning staff is working around you, it's probably time for bed.


    People are passionate about this game, for a number of reasons. Don't lose sight of the fact that the people working at Turbine, who create and maintain the game, are just as passionate. Having a conversation with a Dev or Team member will quickly impress upon you that, sure, this may be their job, but they love it far beyond "work". Not any one of them would do anything to harm the game or the player base. Can mistakes occur? Sure. But the Community Forums and the Player Council go a long way toward keeping it all flowing. You can't ever please everyone, but there isn't anyone sitting in a funky high-back chair, stroking a cat, and contemplating how to screw up LOTRO. Evil intentions aren't there, period.
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  14. #89
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    This is what I get for coming in late......*deep breath*

    Quote Originally Posted by Bragard View Post
    Hi guys just a few questions about 2013.

    1 did you enjoy it?
    2 Did you feel valued.
    3 did forum(from players) feedback(guessing) get to you?.


    Just a few to get the ball rolling as it was mentioned the thread should be started.

    I would ask any other people thinking the thread is a chance to smack people about that they think again. If you know you should not say it, then do not say it. if you can not keep calm and civil just avoid the thread its easy to do.
    1) mostly. There were times I wanted to put my head through a wall. But like anything that is worth doing, there are up-times and down. The up out-weighed the down
    2) I did. Most of the discussions I worked with were PvMP related. It caused some fights in the beginning as the majority of the PC pushed the pvpers to the "there will be no pvp updates" but a few of us pushed through that and we got a lot of good stuff discussed PVP related...which brought in more PVP council members this year
    3) nah. I admit there were times where I just wanted to blow up the forums and set the record straight but couldnt due to NDA ESPECIALLY after being at the Turbine offices...I thought my head would explode

    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    Thanks for your service, council members.

    I would like to add another question:

    What, in your opinion, were the 2013 Players Council's greatest accomplishments? What did you convince the developers to do that they would not have done otherwise?
    Hmmm. I think my best accomplishment was helping to bring Turbine to it's knees for PVP mwuahahahahahaha. JK...um...helping get some PVP goodies going into the game and helping to make it better...Rank farming, new corruptions, damage type help, catapults, U13 (Even tho it needs some work)...better than nothing in my opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cithryth View Post
    I made a video discussing the kind of things we did and stuff we talked we talked about in the council.
    bahahahahaha! I spit my coffee hearing the "I didn't get any points so I don't want to hear all this #### of nguuuuah paid gnuuuuahhhhh"
    LOL!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    Okay, now that NDA is dropped, I have a question. Can someone from the 2013 Player Council who visited Turbine either confirm or deny that Sapience's desk is within view and range of Rowan's? No, really! Are we sure it'll be noticed if he drops a few more hints about things like the new class, the areas to come with 2014, etc.?

    In seriousness, though, what can you tell us about the back-and-forth decisions that have been made regarding housing? First they are at the top of the list, then they get put to the side, they go back up, now it seems we'll hardly get any revamp at all. Any light that can be shed on the whys?
    no comment...*throws ball at Rowan from Sapience's desk* *innocent whistle*

    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    To your first question: Sorry, the visit to T is still under NDA. Suffice it to say that if Rowan sneezes, Sapience has to wipe off his chair. LOL
    eeeeeeeew...

    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    Did many of the original PC went inactive over time? One year seems very long when you have the possibility to work/read/write for hours every day.

    Which parts of the game seemed to be a no go area for feedback from PC? Are there taboos? Or did they asked pretty much about every aspect of the game?

    Did you work alot with engineers and QA people?

    Was Sapience involved a lot in the PC forums?
    We all took breaks. I actually pushed to have the forums shut down over Christmas break but no go there...came back to PAGES of new stuff lol. I tend to take a week off per month or at least a couple days. LOTS of reading, critical thinking, discussions, mechanics breakdowns...Then the arguing and yelling and slapping people around...you gotta take a break

    The original "no go" area for the game was PvP...There were a few of us that took to that wall with a sledgehammer and knocked a hole in it, then eventually it crumbled and we had a LOT of discussions that, like others said, went till the final day of the council.

    We didn't work with a lot of QA people as Kehlyr and Raina are typically very busy in their own areas. Most of the interaction was with the devs and the community members and they did a great job moving things along.

    Yes Sapience was very involved and took a lot of extra free time from him to help keep things running smoothly. He is very much apperciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post
    I'm going to use my standard "feedback" questionnaire for this. I by far prefer open questions so PC members please feel free to fill it out and elaborate where you so wish

    Q1 - Name three things that the PC13 as a whole or you the individual PC member did well:



    Q2 - Name three things that the PC13 as a whole or you the individual PC member could have done better:



    Q3 - Name one aspect of your involvement in PC13 which had the greatest impact overall on the game:



    There are no right or wrong answers but it would be great for those of us outside of PC13 to build up a picture of how you all perceived your work.

    Thanks in advance

    Q1 - Name three things that the PC13 as a whole or you the individual PC member did well:
    hmmmm.....

    I have to say I spent most of my time barking around the PVP side of the council so I will go with individual

    1 I think even tho PVP has a LOT of work to do, we pushed through a lot of good information and updates which showed Turbine that PVP IS something that needs to be looked at and is an important part of the game for many people. Even if it is a small percentage, it is a percentage that needs to be looked at and worked on regularly. I think we put a bit of a spark into it which will help improve it down the road
    2 Rank farming discussion...if you think that the council was all goodie goodie...you are wrong :] as soon as the Rank farming thing came up...it was a WAR in the PC...a couple weeks of fighting, arguing, yelling(forum wise), attacks, defense, and ultimately it came out the way it did.
    3 PVP updates...we got the spark, and got some updates going. New corruptions, discussing the damage types, possible future updates, etc etc. Lots of good discussions...also some pretty nasty fights in there too

    Q2 - Name three things that the PC13 as a whole or you the individual PC member could have done better:

    1 Organization would probably be a good one...sometimes it ended up being like the main forums where it was just a pool of stuff to figure out and discussions going off on tangents.

    2 policing - It would be nice if some of the discussions involved only a specific player type. Such as raiders, pvpers, roll players, etc. Sometimes it is good to have all people in them...other times people don't realize that they can hurt a discussion when the post without any knowledge of how it works.

    3 testing. There were some good testing sessions but there were times when things really needed to be looked at and we couldnt get testing time to have any impact

    Q3 - Name one aspect of your involvement in PC13 which had the greatest impact overall on the game:

    Jeez I don't know. That is all relative to the players. A huge impact to one person might not be an impact to another. I would say holding off on an expac this year to work and fix smaller things would have been the greatest impact I guess. Sometimes when you go for the big shot, you miss the small issues in-between and I think the little things getting worked on will help improve the game greatly.

    Quote Originally Posted by LabadalofDorlomin View Post
    Hi and thanks to the 2013 council for your obvious hard work.

    As a few of the other council members have also mentioned it as a heated debate, I would like to hear some clarification of why the subject of rank farming was such a hot topic.


    • What was the nature of the heated debate?
    • who was this between? (not individuals names obviously but was it player council versus devs or pc versus pc etc)
    • can you enlighten us to some of the for and against arguments?
    • finally, is there anything more that was forwarded by yourselves but wasn't implemented on this subject?


    Many thanks in advance.

    I won't share my reasons for asking to avoid this post becoming editorial. (albeit important to me to understand by way of you sharing a reply if you can)
    The nature of the debate was basically. what is rank farming and why do people care? It sounds simple but it was basically a war. As PVPers we are very passionate as a whole. So something as simple as reading a definition of rank farming, and actually applying it can cause a pretty nasty debate.

    The debate was within the VERY small pvp community on the council. Some of the PVEers chimed in to help, but the war was mostly between the Person that was for Rank farming, vs the rest of us who were against. I think the majority of the PVE side that got involved stood behind us very well.

    The for and against arguments basically mirrored the ones here on the live forums.. Trying to punch holes in the definition, trying to find work arounds, What kind of punishments, what happens if...and so on and so on. Ultimately the outcome was to ban rank farming :] unfortunately things got personal a few times.

    Nothing really not implimented, unless you are meaning a higher ban lol. You would be surprised on how much the PC discussion was almost exactly like the discussion on here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    My question is more about the process, paraphrasing some PC comments here-
    A former PC member said they weren't sure how valid their contributions were due to their casual play style. But said they were told to continue contributing to the discussion anyway-even if others had said the same thing. PC members also tried new-to-them areas of the game so they could contribute.

    Another PC member said that PvP discussions got very heated due to strong opinions held by regular PvPers.

    So my question is, Do you think this feedback-from passionate 'experts' on play styles and classes and from the tried it once 'novices' in those playstyles or classes, was weighted according to experience? Or was it all considered equally valid on the basis that everyone is new at some point? Or did it vary from Dev to Dev? The class changes (not trees, per se-but the implementation thereof) prompted this question, if you would like some spoecific context.

    Just a comment on the below



    I suspect many people may have thought it was futile. The 'like it or leave' responses in Beta from some PC members certainly put me off contributing to the general discussion after a while. This was not true of all PC members, of course, but it may have contributed to the 'us' (critcal players) versus 'them' (PC members as public defenders of all changes) feelings that permeated Beta. Add to this the 'noise' created in class forum hijacks by some people who had never played the class calling critics change resistant, or implying critics were simply too dumb to understand the trees, or defending removal of vital skills (later returned by the Devs) or calling 'wrong' those of us identifying issues in classes and BBs, that were later recognised as bugs, all that gave me no desire to converse with those people in PMs or in forums. While none of these staunch defenders of bugs and broken skills ever apparently broke the CoC, the sense I had that any critical feedback and suggestions about changes, tarred me with the 'whining vocal minority' brush and therefore was easily dismissed, was palpable. As for some PC members being called 'shills'-yeah that was nasty and unwarranted. So was me being called an 'old bitter change resistant elitist vet'. Some posters in Beta on both 'sides' of the many debates behaved very badly. That was sad for all of us affected, players and PC members alike.

    I hope the new PC and the next wave of Beta testers start afresh, baggage free, bring fewer blanket judgements, and more open communication and understanding, from everyone involved passionately in this game we all love. Here's to a positive constructive 2014! ./toast

    edit: and thanks 2013 PC members for the option to turn off crit naming, the option to turn off confirmation boxes, the clear definition of rank farming, and the other noticable improvements to the game you contributed to. Now 2014 PC, go finish fixing class bugs and those side quests in BBs, you lazy lot! (joking )
    ctually I would say the casual player's contribution was held just as high or higher than the hardcore guys From the pvp side of things. The hardcore guys know the mechanics and the playstyle in and out. And sometimes that can blind us to the other issues. The casual player can come in and give an experience that makes us go..."huh...I didn't think of that". Some of the best helpers in a PVP discussion can be the PVEer that came out once. Keep in mind that isn't ALWAYS true heh heh.

    The PVP discussions got VERY heated. However the comment "due to strong opinions held by regular PvPers." is something I will not agree with because BOTH sides were holding strong opinions. The PVEers were just as hostile if actually not more hostile at times during a couple discussions. I will say that when a discussion came up that had the "potential" of affecting pve for a short time, the PVEers came out with pitch forks

    However, like I said, and what you mentioned, is hardcore is good..but so is casual. It widens the spectrum and can sometimes bring forward a better decision on a change or mechanic that a hardcore person may not have noticed. Kind of along the lines of storming a castle as a commander when your squier looked under the mat for the key :]



    Quote Originally Posted by Bragard View Post
    so pc members going forward.

    What advice would you give to:

    1 2014 pc members.
    2 Turbine.
    3 fellow players.
    1 if you think it, post it. The main forums kind of shy us away from posting something that may sound dumb because of the backlash. You won't get that from the player council. POST IT. the worst you will hear is NO. Take breathers. Enjoy life. Don't overdo it as it is very busy and a lot of thinking. Make sure you take time for yourself. Know when to jump in, but know when to stay out. If you think you can contribute to a discussion, go for it. If you are jumping in just to show people you are there, sometimes you can cause more harm then good.

    2 Nothing they haven't heard from before. I think they got an earful a couple of times on the council...and at Turbine

    3 There are many players that have negative aspects of the council. It's a publicity stunt, We are all yes men...etc. I can tell you that isn't true. There are a good amount of PC members that basically told Turbine "NO" "BAD". If it was a publicity stunt...this year would have been simple. But it was a lot of work. Lots of discussions, daily followup, critical thinking, equations, damage control, etc. We are actively trying to make the game better. I can understand that some people hate everything about Turbine so NOTHING is positive...but that is not our issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kehleyr View Post
    Actually, as I recall the PC visited right around Halloween and at that time Rowan was still involved with DDO, so no, his desk wasn't anywhere near Sapience's.

    It is now, however.
    As I recall...We were there and YOU WEREN'T!!!! I am still mad at seeing that empty desk when I stopped by!





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    Quote Originally Posted by Yicky View Post
    The PVP discussions got VERY heated. However the comment "due to strong opinions held by regular PvPers." is something I will not agree with because BOTH sides were holding strong opinions. The PVEers were just as hostile if actually not more hostile at times during a couple discussions. I will say that when a discussion came up that had the "potential" of affecting pve for a short time, the PVEers came out with pitch forks
    I kind of like how that discussion ended up, though. I was one of the folks waving a pitch fork at the beginning, but then I took some time to reflect on it and came back with something like: "Ok, here's a counter-proposal that satisfies most of the objectives of the original idea without requiring me to burn down the Turbine offices if it gets implemented."

    Whether or not it actually happens some day, I'm glad that we were eventually able to turn a negative (I daresay hostile) discussion around on its head and do something productive with it. My suggestions-for-making-suggestions above came out of the lessons I learned from that experience.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yicky View Post
    As I recall...We were there and YOU WEREN'T!!!! I am still mad at seeing that empty desk when I stopped by!
    lol - yes, this is true. Halloween is actually the anniversary of my Hire Date at Turbine. I usually take the day off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bragard View Post
    Hi guys just a few questions about 2013.

    1 did you enjoy it?
    2 Did you feel valued.
    3 did forum(from players) feedback(guessing) get to you?.
    1: Yes I did enjoy it very much. It was very interesting and at times even educational.
    2: Yes I did,not only by my fellow councillers but also by the Turbine Team.
    3: Get to me? There are many ways the forum got to me yes. But never in a negative way. OK, sometimes the discussions got a bit heated.
    Leader of The Sentinels and proud member of the Players Council 2013 and 2014.
    [i]No Death, No Glory[/i]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yicky View Post
    1 if you think it, post it. The main forums kind of shy us away from posting something that may sound dumb because of the backlash. You won't get that from the player council. POST IT. the worst you will hear is NO. Take breathers. Enjoy life. Don't overdo it as it is very busy and a lot of thinking. Make sure you take time for yourself. Know when to jump in, but know when to stay out. If you think you can contribute to a discussion, go for it. If you are jumping in just to show people you are there, sometimes you can cause more harm then good.

    2 Nothing they haven't heard from before. I think they got an earful a couple of times on the council...and at Turbine

    3 There are many players that have negative aspects of the council. It's a publicity stunt, We are all yes men...etc. I can tell you that isn't true. There are a good amount of PC members that basically told Turbine "NO" "BAD". If it was a publicity stunt...this year would have been simple. But it was a lot of work. Lots of discussions, daily followup, critical thinking, equations, damage control, etc. We are actively trying to make the game better. I can understand that some people hate everything about Turbine so NOTHING is positive...but that is not our issue.
    Sound advice
    Leader of The Sentinels and proud member of the Players Council 2013 and 2014.
    [i]No Death, No Glory[/i]

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Bragard View Post
    so pc members going forward.

    What advice would you give to:

    1 2014 pc members.
    2 Turbine.
    3 fellow players.
    There are some great replies to this already but I'll put in a few more.

    For 2014 PC members

    1. When you write your title for your post do not make others guess what your topic is about. After a year goes by and you are trying to find a reference to something that was said earlier, post titles are really helpful.

    ex:
    (topic) I hate the RNG loot table vs (topic) [Suggestion] Change Loot Table for T3 Raids

    2. Respect everyone and value all their input.

    There are tendencies to quantify or qualify opinions and options suggested by elevating or de-elevating posts based on the way someone writes or on their avowed experience or lack thereof. Find the important parts of the conversation and stick with it. If you have to, cover up the name of the poster and see if you can by-pass any blindfold about what they write.

    Players with great knowledge will hold forth and explain details about how things work now, but this is not necessarily the only guidelines about how things will work in the future. You are building the future not the past.


    For Turbine

    1. Consider some of the suggestions about improving communications with the player base generically. There are some things that cannot be revealed but there's always room for better communication, especially with the more marginal but passionate portions of the player base.

    It's not 100% fair to keep players "on the hook" for things they want to believe will happen when you know that it's not going to happen for years or ever.

    Business practices change, directions change, EPs change and if a direction changes then be more upfront about it.

    2. Do not let the current state of internet security or non-security, international issues and the current base internet technology languish from "closed eyes". Look to see what is coming and try to have Plan B, Plan C, and Plan D ready to implement should those changes go into effect.


    For the Players

    1. There was a very good posting above about how to write suggestions. Do It! Write them up. Do not expect them to be implemented in any time frame or ever. Your suggestion may dovetail into another suggestion with leads to another and another and morphs into something new and wonderful. Yours may be the starting kernel for a longer chain of discussions.

    2. Turbine is a business. They will not do what YOU want. They will do what THEY want to do. They do listen to things you would "LIKE" to have in the game but understand that, in the end, everything belongs to them. They own it. They make it. They create what they want. They do it when they want.

    When changes are coming that are "a shock", understand that it is Turbine that has decided that is the thing they want to do. It's not open to discussion about removing it or returning to what was before. It's only open to tweaking or mitigations. Don't wait for the buffalo to return, move forward and adjust how you play and why you play.



    A side note:

    There have been some statements from PC members that implied "we made Turbine change PVMP by harping on it for a year." To me this is not what happened at all. Some of those PC members did get to visit the Devs in Boston and had long direct talks which they were not allowed to share with the rest of the 2013 PC (see: building NDA). So, it's possible, that in deed, our constant harping about PVMP did in fact make a difference but I do not recall any statement from Turbine stating that our "hammering on things that were off the table" made them change their minds about PVMP.

    What I did hear or understand, is that Turbine was already considering some changes and our inputs did in fact help accelerate, improve or mitigate aspects of the change. But it was Turbine themselves that had moved what was off the table back on the table.

    This highlights one of the many differences in PC member composition. The outcome was the same: changes to PVMP happened. Was it Turbine who already had it in the pipeline or was it 100% because of the PC member threads or was it Memorex?

    I don't know the answer to this and I don't expect to ever know the answer. I'm glad for the outcome but beware the hubris of claiming the sole reason that something changed in the game was the input from the PVMP enthusiast councilors. There are many other areas that had equally enthusiastic and passionate members and those things did not change at all.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

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    For my part, I'm pretty sure it was Maybelline.

    Though it might have been the shoes.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Runesi_EU View Post
    I know there were some suggestions regarding crafting but don't recall if that particular one was mentioned and I no longer have access to the forum to check. Maybe another council member can remember some crafting discussions better than I can.

    I will say that the very first suggestion post I made was to link your kinship revamp thread and that this thread remained quite active throughout the year, I still have some hope that some kinship improvements may happen (probably not as sweeping as your proposal) but I don't remember any official response in that thread.
    I wasn't in the player council but something like this (possibility of more profession/guilds for one character) was mentioned in one of the HtoI-Livestreams or in the U13-livestream. But I haven't found a mention of it right now, so I'm not sure though. Maybe someone else can remember it more correctly or I just thought I've read it and such a note doesn't exist...

    Orodbril

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cithryth View Post
    That may be true but it wasn't until April 24 when the new 2014 Council was announced that we were freed from our NDA. And in fact up until a day or two before the 24th we thought we would still be unable to discuss what does on in the Council after we were let go. Luckily Sapience and Rowan decided otherwise. I think they realized the good this discussion would do for both those leaving the Council and those joining it. As well as those unsure of if they would want to serve in the future.
    Mae govannen,

    So very true, yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    I kind of like how that discussion ended up, though. I was one of the folks waving a pitch fork at the beginning, but then I took some time to reflect on it and came back with something like: "Ok, here's a counter-proposal that satisfies most of the objectives of the original idea without requiring me to burn down the Turbine offices if it gets implemented."

    Whether or not it actually happens some day, I'm glad that we were eventually able to turn a negative (I daresay hostile) discussion around on its head and do something productive with it. My suggestions-for-making-suggestions above came out of the lessons I learned from that experience.
    I think hostile was an accurate word...maybe even downright war headed lol

    Yicky(R13) Weaver - Now Brandywiner{LOTRO Player Council member}
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    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post
    Q1 - Name three things that the PC13 as a whole or you the individual PC member did well:
    Q2 - Name three things that the PC13 as a whole or you the individual PC member could have done better:
    Q3 - Name one aspect of your involvement in PC13 which had the greatest impact overall on the game:
    Oh no, you just resurrected nightmares about performance reviews!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    Oh no, you just resurrected nightmares about performance reviews!
    GAH! I need to get my bullet points together!
    If you give away gold bars, someone will complain they're too heavy.
    .: Dannach, 100 WDN :.: Daire, 83 LMR :.: Gyrefalcon, 92 CHN :.: Brandon, 72 CPT :.: Honey, 71 GRD :.: Griffon, 69 HNT :.: Kaelenea, 72 RNK :.
    .: Iryth, 56 WDN :.: Baye, 56 WDN :.: Samtal, 64 WDN :.:Dunnock, 56 WDN :.: Sedgewald, 68 LMR :.: Breyon, 41 CHN :.: Tieran, 40 HNT :.

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