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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanisul View Post
    After hearing the discussion of what the function of the PC is, and the ACTUAL definition of what they ARE, well....

    Why do we even have a player council?

    They are single people not representatives.
    They have absolutely NO ability to make changes.
    Their actual interaction with US, as a whole, is entirely voluntary.

    Wow....I was all for a PC before....I really was.

    It's like children during wedding planning...they get asked...but it really doesn't matter what they say. We (Turbine) just get to say they had input.
    Then you have greatly misunderstood. What we say does matter. Does the council have absolute authority over Turbine? No. Yes, there are some things that Turbine has decided they will do. That is wholly within their right. (Seriously, try to get Walmart to change its rules because "I'm a paying customer!!!!" Good luck.) There are aspects that the council DOES have some sway over. In addition, they can give Turbine an idea about how certain things are going to be received. (You know, LIKE A FOCUS GROUP!) And they can communicate without the council members devolving a thread into insults and talk about how "worthless/incompetent/greedy/etc" the Devs and/or Turbine is. The council DOES interact with the player base as much as it can. They gather ideas and suggestions from players in game, on the forums. These can then be discussed without trolls, and without major thread derailment (mostly).

  2. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Then you have greatly misunderstood. What we say does matter. Does the council have absolute authority over Turbine? No. Yes, there are some things that Turbine has decided they will do. That is wholly within their right. (Seriously, try to get Walmart to change its rules because "I'm a paying customer!!!!" Good luck.) There are aspects that the council DOES have some sway over. In addition, they can give Turbine an idea about how certain things are going to be received. (You know, LIKE A FOCUS GROUP!) And they can communicate without the council members devolving a thread into insults and talk about how "worthless/incompetent/greedy/etc" the Devs and/or Turbine is. The council DOES interact with the player base as much as it can. They gather ideas and suggestions from players in game, on the forums. These can then be discussed without trolls, and without major thread derailment (mostly).
    Sadly there is no way for me to respond in a way that wont be misconstrued as offensive....arg...

    Basically there is absolutely nothing that backs up what you said there. The council is there...they speak...that is not up for debate. What they say...totally personal opinions.
    Is it listened to....maybe...if it suits the current direction the game is already going in....
    See, there is no way any of us can know, or see that the council is effective. I really did greatly misunderstand...before. Now it is clear though. Enough of a derail though. It all kinda just gushed out when that picture was painted. I am not one to go and on debating this stuff in threads.
    Holding on by the last hair on the dwarfs beard.

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post

    To give you some idea, consider that the downtime message for this week was read by about 2,000 players here on the forums. The exact same message was read by more than 10x that number on Facebook. Consider also, that every time anyone reads a post here the counter goes up. So if someone is following a thread, they may personally represent 50 'views' of that thread. While on something like Facebook, 1 read = 1 person no matter how many times they read it.
    But the facebook posts have a very different quality and quantity of information. I think this data is comparing apples and oranges.

    For example, in these circumstances, people like me will check FB for down times as FB and twitter are up and accessable when the forum may not be. Also announcements from LOTRO like this are easier to track on FB.

    But if I want to give or read gameplay feedback, get quest information, learn about LIs, find a kin, or give feedback to the PC, etc I would post /read here and certainly not on the FB page. From looking at FB around the time in question I am not alone. Lots of FB readers and posters are simply discussing/asking 'are we there yet?' or stating 'love the game'. Valid but not very informative, imo. If attention paid to feedback is based on hits, should I start posting information on mitigations and stats on FB because that is where it will be read by Devs and PC? I hope FB isn't intended to supercede these forums for that type of feedback.

    'Horses for courses'. js.

    And the minstrel sang to them……”and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.”

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post

    I coined a phrase: Sapience's Whinging Ratio. This number represents the number of players someone "thinks" accesses any aspect of the game vs the real numbers. Phrases like: some, many, all, everyone (or their implied usage) are lead ins to the Sapience Whinging Ratio. You can spot this in PVMP forums, Raiding forums, and nearly every area. It was very hard for the 2013 PC to accept that some areas are just not popular over all, even if they get a lot of action in the forums, /glff or from other venues.
    To help aid in accepting that fact did Turbine share anything to help show how vast the gap between perceived 'quantity of action' and actual usage groups are?

    Because of that reality, did the PC ever take part in designing surveys to be sent to a random assortment players to gain some additional player feedback to assist in helping find the right course of action relating to any of the topics discussed? If so, were the results (hopefully in their entirety) shared back with the PC or kept to Turbine on their own?

    I realize that the amount of traction something gets in any particular setting isn't necessarily important as the actual quantity of people who will use the feature or what their spending patterns/engagement level will become as a result.

    I do wonder some things with how 'silent' as the silent majority is described as being. 1. Is the silence perhaps because they don't think they've got anything they strongly care about to weigh in on, or that they feel needs to change? 2. How many of these players came to LOTRO or stay because of a more vocal member of the community? (Even if that vocal member is no longer vocal or has moved on.)

    I'm also curious. I don't know exactly how Facebook handles viewing metrics for pages. Are those 'read' numbers you're referring to for facebook people going to facebook.com/lotro direct after the post was made? Simply Likes/comments/Shares? Does it count every single person who scrolls past the time of the LOTRO post in their 'recent activity' or 'top stories' on the News Feed?
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
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  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    But the facebook posts have a very different quality and quantity of information. I think this data is comparing apples and oranges.

    For example, in these circumstances, people like me will check FB for down times as FB and twitter are up and accessable when the forum may not be. Also announcements from LOTRO like this are easier to track on FB.

    But if I want to give or read gameplay feedback, get quest information, learn about LIs, find a kin, or give feedback to the PC, etc I would post /read here and certainly not on the FB page. From looking at FB around the time in question I am not alone. Lots of FB readers and posters are simply discussing/asking 'are we there yet?' or stating 'love the game'. Valid but not very informative, imo. If attention paid to feedback is based on hits, should I start posting information on mitigations and stats on FB because that is where it will be read by Devs and PC? I hope FB isn't intended to supercede these forums for that type of feedback.

    'Horses for courses'. js.
    True story.

    Also, given the specific example of 'views' on the downtime announcement, many people may not have clicked on it simply because there is sufficient information right in the thread title. I know this is the reason I didn't bother clicking it. It said a date and time, I mentally translated it to my time zone, and that was that.
    Townsperson says, "I'm having an adventure. I've paddled all the way from Frogmorton!"

  6. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    To help aid in accepting that fact did Turbine share anything to help show how vast the gap between perceived 'quantity of action' and actual usage groups are?
    Yes they did. Sapience is the Go To fellow for the exact information. We did not get numbers or spread sheets or itemized lists but these were reviewed in a generic fashion.

    The PC is not part of Turbine internals and as a focus group we are not privileged to see their detailed business data. The exact numbers are Turbines internal business but enough of it was disclosed for us to understand that What We Thought Was True, Was Often Not The Reality. Hence Sapience Whinging Ratio meaning It Aint What You Think It Is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    ... did the PC ever take part in designing surveys to be sent to a random assortment players to gain some additional player feedback ...
    No, the Players Council did not design surveys. Surveys need to be very carefully constructed, the target responders carefully selected to avoid skewing numbers and contaminating the results with false-positives/false-negatives. This was not part of the Player Council area.

    There are numerous methods for counting population and sub-groupings. There are loads of statistical methods that can be applied depending on the data set and type of queries you submit. There are graphing methods and network social graphs that can show a variety of information. Which ones Turbine uses internally, which ones they buy, which ones they construct themselves, which ones they outsource are not part of the Players Council.

    It's not one size fits all when it comes to statistical sampling. It's quite a science in its own right.


    Slightly Off Topic but as you seem interested in what you can learn from statistical analysis and data acquisition:

    If you are interested in data tracking, you can look up "internet cookies" and see exactly how much you are tracked generically. If you Facebook you are tracked, if you Google you are tracked, if you use any Social Media you are tracked. There's really not many places you are not tracked. This is generic tracking and the results of this data are sold to the highest bidder by Facebook, Google and all the others.

    At the moment this is standard procedure among all large internet companies. There is an average of 36 cookies per site, 10 of these are targeting cookies. The is one cookie database that cataloged over 11 million cookies from over 300,000 websites of various types.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_cookies
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_privacy
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post

    No, the Players Council did not design surveys. Surveys need to be very carefully constructed, the target responders carefully selected to avoid skewing numbers and contaminating the results with false-positives/false-negatives. This was not part of the Player Council area.
    I didn't expect they'd be designed unaided. I was getting at this:
    Participate in and help design focused feedback surveys for the council and the general community.
    https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...player-council (2013)

    To be clear, in addition to the not drafting reports for the community, the PC also didn't end up assisting with survey design in anyway or get to look at information from surveys sent by Turbine on its own during this time?


    I'm aware of how things like 'cookies' work, I was curious if +Sapience, or anyone else here knew what Facebook was counting as a 'view' for a specific content. I scroll past things all the time in my News Feed without reading them.
    Last edited by Crell_1; Apr 26 2014 at 03:13 AM.
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
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  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    I didn't expect they'd be designed unaided. I was getting at this:
    https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...player-council (2013)

    To be clear, in addition to the not drafting reports for the community, the PC also didn't end up assisting with survey design in anyway or get to look at information from surveys sent by Turbine on its own during this time?
    .
    No, apart from the 20 questions thing which obviously isn't the same thing. Maybe questions for the 2013 council should go in there own thread.
    Council Of The West On Evernight

    Runesi

  9. #184
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    Is it or was it possible for the PC to generate content?

    I know, this sounds highly unlikely and speculative, but I'm looking at all these doppelganger icons and wonder, if these can be created on a voluntary basis from people of the PC or maybe from the community itself.
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Apr 26 2014 at 03:01 PM.

  10. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    I didn't expect they'd be designed unaided. I was getting at this:
    https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...player-council (2013)

    To be clear, in addition to the not drafting reports for the community, the PC also didn't end up assisting with survey design in anyway or get to look at information from surveys sent by Turbine on its own during this time?
    You are correct that originally that was in the description but that was changed during our tenure. We did help with formulating the 20 Questions and we did help with advising on the Ask the LOTRO Team Archive section. There were a number of items on the list that did not happen and there are differences in the list of possible activities between 2013 and 2014.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    I'm aware of how things like 'cookies' work, I was curious if +Sapience, or anyone else here knew what Facebook was counting as a 'view' for a specific content. I scroll past things all the time in my News Feed without reading them.
    If you know how cookies work especially beacon tags, then you know by scrolling past an article on the web, the timers tracking you showed you went past the article. If you stopped to read the first line, paragraph or whole article the beacon tags noted that. Because there are a LOT of beacon tags in an article. The APIs from Facebook and Google and the standard ad agencies all take care of it auto-magically.

    If you read ebooks like kindle, have you considered how it knows how fast you read? Mine does. It knows I read S L O W L Y.
    If you watch Netflix streamers, the beacon tags know, when you pause, when you start, do you finish the movie and how long your bio break is. Netflix has a ginormous tracking database they use to predict which movies to buy or fund based on the way you watch the movie.
    If you are in a store, there are wifi beacons tracking your cellphone and Bluetooth beacons tracking which isle you go in. Couple with RFID tags on the items, and the GPS in your phone they know exactly where you are in the store, what items you pick up, how long you look at it and if you download that store's app, they will text you a coupon for the item you are looking at in Real Time.

    So, if you scroll past an article you will fall into one or more of many statistical buckets. So you got counted in at least one of them, but how many others are you in? Depends on the site and what sort of data they want to extract about your visit.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  11. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    Is it or was it possible for the PC to generate content?
    The PC cannot generate content, write code, create graphics, animations or other backend items. They can request or advise on things that Turbine puts in front of the council to comment on. If it's not given to the council to look at, then of course, the council had zero input on that item.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    I know, this sounds highly unlikely and speculative, but I'm looking at all these doppelganger icons an wonder, if these can be created on a voluntary basis from people of the PC or maybe from the community itself.
    I'm not sure what you are asking? Can you explain more?
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post

    I'm not sure what you are asking? Can you explain more?
    The poster is referring to the fact that T9 crafting mats still don't have distinct icons after 5 months (dat 2D artwork!), and that many classes have a horrible mix of old and new skill icons. I think he is asking if the job of creating these assets could be outsourced to some willing members of the community, as it's obviously too much for Turbine to do.

  13. #188
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    A lot, really a lot of items don't get appropiate new icons anymore. For example buffs, crafting resources, eqipment...
    I wonder if we, the players or some people from the PC, or just me, can offer our creations so they they can be used for new icons, instead of using the old ones from lvl 85 content.

    Look what I did here:
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...86#post7137286
    Just an example...

    I was wondering if this or similar simple (from my perspective) work can be done inside the PC. Or in other words, is allowed.

    I mean if no one is doing this. How will the game look like if more content comes out? I'm asking because I see a way to change things. I'm also willing to activly help with this issue, although I'm not in the council.

    Edit: The only official statement to the icon topic was made so far is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    At a recent meeting one of the things the art team did was show off a scrolling screen of icons from each game. Far and away the largest set was LOTRO. I had never seen the sheer number of icons in the game displayed in one place at one time. I think players often hyper-focus on the thing they're looking at and miss the big picture. I know, as far as Icons are concerned, I had until I saw that. I would never want to be the person responsible for keeping track of all that.
    Sounds almost like a decision was made to make less new icons, maybe.
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Apr 26 2014 at 02:26 PM.

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runesi_EU View Post
    Maybe questions for the 2013 council should go in there own thread.
    Seriously, guys. Lets keep this thread clear. There are a number of us who would love to talk about some of this stuff, but no one's started it. I figured we'd have gotten blasted by now.

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by SvenNiscadae View Post
    Congrats to the new council members and thank you to Turbine for allowing me the opportunity to help this year as well. Another hobbit to go on that cookie jar quest!
    Congratulations to Sven, and to all of you!
    Aednat, Champion; Officer of Easily Amused on Gladden
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  16. #191
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    Congrats & Good Luck! & Thank you!

    Congrats to all new player council members and good luck to you! I wish you a lot of fun, knowledge and wisdom

    And as to the Lotro Council 2013 players: Thanks for everything you've done!
    Country: Netherlands, Current Server: Nimrodel. Future server: Landroval
    Sheherezi's an Eastemnet Cook & Farmer

  17. #192
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    (Just in case anybody is still looking to talk about the 2013 Council's activities, Bragard started a new thread: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...25#post7152125)
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
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  18. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    Seriously, guys. Lets keep this thread clear. There are a number of us who would love to talk about some of this stuff, but no one's started it. I figured we'd have gotten blasted by now.
    It doesn't take that much to figure out why this hasn't happened.
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  19. #194
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    Congarats to the selected, my only ask is that you give the game some new instances and skirmishes, please council, dont allow us to run the same old rundown instances year in and year out. Breath new life into the game :-)
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  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    There's also a real "baby with the bathwater" issue there. The class revamps were absolutely needed, and I assert that the changes -- in a broad sense -- have been entirely beneficial to the game when taken as a whole. I wouldn't want to revert all of the good changes just because of a few missteps. I'd rather spend time talking about how to refine the revamps we got.
    I assert the changes were not beneficial in the slightest, but hey, I only really play two classes who got utterly trashed.

    Further, they have failed to meet their mandate (the class changes were to make balancing new content easier, but balance is frankly a joke STILL 6 months later, and there is no new content for at least a year!).

    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    Honestly, my primary motivation for applying to the Council in the first place was to participate in the class revamps, and the results remain the thing I'm most proud of. I don't agree with every specific change that was made, and I don't deny that some of the results have been pretty broken (perma-SotD on Captains, anybody?), but at the end of the day Turbine made a huge step in terms of bringing a 7 year-old game in line with modern MMO gameplay. That's a hell of an accomplishment, and I'm proud to have been a part of it.
    I cannot believe you are actually proud of the state of the classes right now. I am actually open-mouthed shocked. I feel you do not represent me well as a player, and based on anecdotal evidence and Steam login numbers after the release of HD I feel you do not represent many players.

    I feel the reason you may have received accusations of being a "yes man" or "shill" in the past may be directly related to how out of touch your opinion is with so many players. I am not excusing such statements, but honestly, given the discussions I know you were part of in HD beta and afterwards, I cannot say why you are so convinced that this was good for the game given the player response.

    Quote Originally Posted by vodou View Post
    you do realize that accomplishment turned a trickling wound of player loss into a gushing gash that cannot be mended. i don't think the council could have done anything to prevent it and they prolly salvaged whatever small aspects they could but in the end the revamps are the primary reason the game is dwindling in population rapidly. the revamps made the game too easy and lacking challenge, the revamps never saw the fruition of the stated intention of classes having to make tough choices to fill a role in group content (and won't in the future as BBs don't utilize class mechanics much at all), and they drained valuable time and resources that could have been put to better, more "traditional" uses.

    so the game is now a little more like the competition but i am afraid it is losing (lost for many of us) it's appeal. it was a bit different and that's what made it good for many folk. more modern isn't always better, especially when the game is limited to it's less-then-modern capabilities. as such, many of us are finding out that those more modern MMOs are more appealing then one that is playing catch up to them while jettisoning some aspects that appealed to certain groups of players. this leads to less revenue and less development. imo the revamps were an unmitigated disaster
    +1 to this.

    EDIT:

    I actually missed my point I was so shocked.

    To the new players council, congratulations and may you learn from the mistakes of the past. You don't need to break an NDA to read feedback in the forums, to listen to the comments of your fellow players and to learn what's popular and what's unpopular.
    Last edited by aardnebby; Apr 28 2014 at 05:33 AM.

  21. #196
    Congrats to all!













    p.s. there is a hobgoblin warg pup in the moors, Skoch has some explaining to do.

  22. #197
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    Are there any dedicated council members that could actually contribute to the moors? Or are they all PVE (wait,what PVE?) based?
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  23. #198
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    Not sure about the new crop, but, of the returning Councilors, MrWarg and Yicky are both extremely PvMP-oriented.
    Cainwen Ciaphas, Captain of Crickhollow, HERO OF MIDDLE EARTH!!!
    I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed, or numbered! My opinions are my own!

  24. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    I assert the changes were not beneficial in the slightest, but hey, I only really play two classes who got utterly trashed.

    Further, they have failed to meet their mandate (the class changes were to make balancing new content easier, but balance is frankly a joke STILL 6 months later, and there is no new content for at least a year!).



    I cannot believe you are actually proud of the state of the classes right now. I am actually open-mouthed shocked. I feel you do not represent me well as a player, and based on anecdotal evidence and Steam login numbers after the release of HD I feel you do not represent many players.

    I feel the reason you may have received accusations of being a "yes man" or "shill" in the past may be directly related to how out of touch your opinion is with so many players. I am not excusing such statements, but honestly, given the discussions I know you were part of in HD beta and afterwards, I cannot say why you are so convinced that this was good for the game given the player response.



    +1 to this.

    EDIT:

    I actually missed my point I was so shocked.

    To the new players council, congratulations and may you learn from the mistakes of the past. You don't need to break an NDA to read feedback in the forums, to listen to the comments of your fellow players and to learn what's popular and what's unpopular.


    Popular and unpopular alike should be taken into account, and both sometimes with a grain of salt.
    The PC should, imo, work outward from itself into less stable/transient player populations to touch those players with ideas and opinions that are less than accessible or agreeable, in order to eventually to direct the game in ways that will:
    A) Make those players feel more at home, wanted; B) Challenged enough to feel an actual thrill at playing the game; and C) Stay long enough to make those "less stable/transient player populations" more stable and more happy to stick with it.
    To that end, I invite anyone to stick me with a PM so we can briefly discuss current game mechanics, experiences, just rant, or whatever. That said, I might not be able to answer immediately. In fact I'll GUARANTEE that I won't. I work too much. But I will answer. Just don't ask me to talk about the plans for the new undead troll army skirmish that we .....

    um.

    Did I say that out loud?

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by MessyR View Post
    Congarats to the selected, my only ask is that you give the game some new instances and skirmishes, please council, dont allow us to run the same old rundown instances year in and year out. Breath new life into the game :-)
    The PC can suggest new skirmishes/instances day after day, that doesn't guarantee we will get any. It's all up to Turbine & if they don't wanna add any new there not going too no matter how much the PC persists.

 

 
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