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  1. #1
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    Reflect and over time effects

    Who actually thought it was a good idea to allow HoT and DoT effects to proc reflect bonuses?

    Or am I missing how active over time effects creates a competetive playing field by
    a) allowing someone to not die when they get healed from the DPS of a dot based class,
    or
    b) allowing someone to kill themselves on a class with a reflect, solely for the reason that their dps is dot based.

    I see absolutely no logical or plausible reasoning behind this change, especially considering the other things now in place in the ettenmoors.

    Who thought this was a good idea?
    Last edited by Untg99; Apr 23 2014 at 05:07 AM.

  2. #2
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    I am 99% sure this was an unintentional side effect and will be fixed in 13.1

  3. #3
    I agree with first reply to thread. Its very very OP skill and will be changed asap, not only cause players asked for it. I do agree that maybe it should/ could reflect the dot applied AFTER using TC, but all the dots before? Raid of burgs with Cunning attack vs me and i will kill em all (when i say it like that, i wish it stay same )

    Cheers and watch your dotties when you zerg fair spider, cause fair player will use that skill only in that situation.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    cause fair player will use that skill only in that situation.
    There are obviously very few 'fair' players.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    I am 99% sure this was an unintentional side effect and will be fixed in 13.1
    One can only hope. Remember this thread?:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-improve/page4

    Sometimes i think turbine is just trolling us lol.

  6. #6
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    I really don't understand the reasoning behind this change. Horrible, not only in PvP but also in PvE. It's hopefully not working as intended.
    Dobb - Burglar R13
    Thar - Guardian
    ...
    now on [DE-RP]Belegaer

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz8ZvHFuh6N7VByCiHXLpaw

  7. #7
    QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQ

    Spiders are beatable. Just need to learn how to fight them. What skills to use when.

    Turbine with nerf them due to all the QQ. no surprise

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaineater View Post
    QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ QQQQQQQQQ

    Spiders are beatable. Just need to learn how to fight them. What skills to use when.

    Turbine with nerf them due to all the QQ. no surprise
    Maybe, but the fact a spider can pop reflect, burrow with dots, and then pop reflect out of the burrow again tells me something about the skill needs changing. Increased cd or make it reflect less damage, or only reflect dots applied after the skill is used. Given the much deserved dps bump spiders got, there's no reason this skill needs to exist as it does on live.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimrinoth View Post
    Maybe, but the fact a spider can pop reflect, burrow with dots, and then pop reflect out of the burrow again tells me something about the skill needs changing. Increased cd or make it reflect less damage, or only reflect dots applied after the skill is used. Given the much deserved dps bump spiders got, there's no reason this skill needs to exist as it does on live.

    stun,fear,dps,repeat. the cd is ####ty as it is lol. and it only last 5s if they pop it out of a burrow, and most spiders are stunned after getting out of a burrow anyways.

    Adds 2secs per venom pip. so smart spiders build up their venom then pop it. giving 15s of hell. but if you live through that via CC you will win.


    and just use your bleeds at the right time. You need to be very smart and careful when fighting spiders. but its possible. a r8 champ killed me cuz he made me use my cds n such.

    kill pet.
    dps like a mother fcker
    *pop TC* stun/fear
    TC runs out bleeds bleeds bleeds just go to town.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaineater View Post
    stun,fear,dps,repeat. the cd is ####ty as it is lol. and it only last 5s if they pop it out of a burrow, and most spiders are stunned after getting out of a burrow anyways.

    Adds 2secs per venom pip. so smart spiders build up their venom then pop it. giving 15s of hell. but if you live through that via CC you will win.


    and just use your bleeds at the right time. You need to be very smart and careful when fighting spiders. but its possible. a r8 champ killed me cuz he made me use my cds n such.

    kill pet.
    dps like a mother fcker
    *pop TC* stun/fear
    TC runs out bleeds bleeds bleeds just go to town.
    Never said it wasn't possible to beat spiders, they simply do not need TC as it exists now. They have more then respectable dps coupled with what is arguably the best CC in the moors, they don't need a super reflect as well.

    I can beat spiders. But since most of my dps comes from bleeds the fight comes down to when TC is popped, so until the reflect is gone its almost like a waiting game of healing and doing minimal damage with what direct dps i have. Then ofc once TC is popped if things look bad for the spider they can simply burrow and start the fight over again. This is silly and honestly doesn't make for a very fun or interesting fight. At least for me.

  11. #11

    Quantitative or subjective?

    To the OP, are you talking about 1v1 encounters (not 1v1 circle) or are you talking about RvR?

    Seriously, enough with this TC concern. It is returning the damage dished out back to you, for 15 seconds max. Apply a DoT, not all of them like a fool, hope TC is wasted, then kill the spider. Creeps have learned to be observant of many freep skills, and when they are applied, so they can proceed to counter it, if they don't the creep is seriously hindered or dead.

    Quit hiding and go experience the update. Reality check.... Creeps are dying just like freeps. A fraid of defilers was wiped last night on BW. Imagine how much burst dps was needed to wipe 18 defilers in raid. Aside from that, 2-3 burgs were picking off ranked defilers and burning them down. A scaled r1 LM was spamming water lore and killing creeps one at a time by orc camp last night. Annoying yes, but who cares. Its a pvp zone. Did you think dying was something that others had to do?

    If you are dying so often that you feel you have to post a nerf thread then you probably have been riding too long on one generic skill chain. 10 days since update and the verdict is in for you? Start listing your gear, audacity, virtues, and LI's. Also include the name and rank of the spiders that have so easily compromised your confidence. How many times have you actually died because of TC? Let us read how extensive your experiences have been with TC so far. Then I will have something to read that is quantitative not subjective.



    "I can beat spiders. But since most of my dps comes from bleeds the fight comes down to when TC is popped, so until the reflect is gone its almost like a waiting game of healing and doing minimal damage with what direct dps i have. Then ofc once TC is popped if things look bad for the spider they can simply burrow and start the fight over again. This is silly and honestly doesn't make for a very fun or interesting fight. At least for me." Said Nimrinoth

    Well tell us what constitutes a fun/interesting fight for you. My currently obvious cynical opinion longs for detail. You should feel fortunate that at least you know exactly where and when the spider will emerge from burrow. Consider a burg's ability to HIPS and emerge any time and any where to continue a battle. That isn't fun/interesting either, for the creep or the burg.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    To the OP, are you talking about 1v1 encounters (not 1v1 circle) or are you talking about RvR?

    Seriously, enough with this TC concern. It is returning the damage dished out back to you, for 15 seconds max. Apply a DoT, not all of them like a fool, hope TC is wasted, then kill the spider. Creeps have learned to be observant of many freep skills, and when they are applied, so they can proceed to counter it, if they don't the creep is seriously hindered or dead.

    Quit hiding and go experience the update. Reality check.... Creeps are dying just like freeps. A fraid of defilers was wiped last night on BW. Imagine how much burst dps was needed to wipe 18 defilers in raid. Aside from that, 2-3 burgs were picking off ranked defilers and burning them down. A scaled r1 LM was spamming water lore and killing creeps one at a time by orc camp last night. Annoying yes, but who cares. Its a pvp zone. Did you think dying was something that others had to do?

    If you are dying so often that you feel you have to post a nerf thread then you probably have been riding too long on one generic skill chain. 10 days since update and the verdict is in for you? Start listing your gear, audacity, virtues, and LI's. Also include the name and rank of the spiders that have so easily compromised your confidence. How many times have you actually died because of TC? Let us read how extensive your experiences have been with TC so far. Then I will have something to read that is quantitative not subjective.




    "I can beat spiders. But since most of my dps comes from bleeds the fight comes down to when TC is popped, so until the reflect is gone its almost like a waiting game of healing and doing minimal damage with what direct dps i have. Then ofc once TC is popped if things look bad for the spider they can simply burrow and start the fight over again. This is silly and honestly doesn't make for a very fun or interesting fight. At least for me." Said Nimrinoth

    Well tell us what constitutes a fun/interesting fight for you. My currently obvious cynical opinion longs for detail. You should feel fortunate that at least you know exactly where and when the spider will emerge from burrow. Consider a burg's ability to HIPS and emerge any time and any where to continue a battle. That isn't fun/interesting either, for the creep or the burg.

    Except freep dots are scaled to damage creeps with double sometimes triple the amount of morale. So even if the reflect is only 15 seconds, that 15 seconds can tear you apart. Add in the fact that the spider will also be dealing damage to you while reflect is up and you start taking quite alot of damage. No one is saying scrap the skill, but clearly some changes should be made to it. I vote for an increased cd.

    To me a fun and interesting fight is one where my options are limited to spam healing my way to victory. That's lame and i don't enjoy it.

    As for burgs i agree, however as long as you have a dot that can't be potted and lasts longer then 10 seconds you know they will emerge from hips 10 seconds later.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    To the OP, are you talking about 1v1 encounters (not 1v1 circle) or are you talking about RvR?

    Seriously, enough with this TC concern. It is returning the damage dished out back to you, for 15 seconds max. Apply a DoT, not all of them like a fool, hope TC is wasted, then kill the spider. Creeps have learned to be observant of many freep skills, and when they are applied, so they can proceed to counter it, if they don't the creep is seriously hindered or dead.

    Quit hiding and go experience the update. Reality check.... Creeps are dying just like freeps. A fraid of defilers was wiped last night on BW. Imagine how much burst dps was needed to wipe 18 defilers in raid. Aside from that, 2-3 burgs were picking off ranked defilers and burning them down. A scaled r1 LM was spamming water lore and killing creeps one at a time by orc camp last night. Annoying yes, but who cares. Its a pvp zone. Did you think dying was something that others had to do?

    If you are dying so often that you feel you have to post a nerf thread then you probably have been riding too long on one generic skill chain. 10 days since update and the verdict is in for you? Start listing your gear, audacity, virtues, and LI's. Also include the name and rank of the spiders that have so easily compromised your confidence. How many times have you actually died because of TC? Let us read how extensive your experiences have been with TC so far. Then I will have something to read that is quantitative not subjective.



    "I can beat spiders. But since most of my dps comes from bleeds the fight comes down to when TC is popped, so until the reflect is gone its almost like a waiting game of healing and doing minimal damage with what direct dps i have. Then ofc once TC is popped if things look bad for the spider they can simply burrow and start the fight over again. This is silly and honestly doesn't make for a very fun or interesting fight. At least for me." Said Nimrinoth

    Well tell us what constitutes a fun/interesting fight for you. My currently obvious cynical opinion longs for detail. You should feel fortunate that at least you know exactly where and when the spider will emerge from burrow. Consider a burg's ability to HIPS and emerge any time and any where to continue a battle. That isn't fun/interesting either, for the creep or the burg.
    That craid of defilers wiped because they had no idea what they were doing, not miracle freep burst dps.

    Its certainly true that wardens have the nuclear option of just healspamming a spider to death (which is similar to their nuclear option of just running a defiler out of power) both of which are by and large the very definition of bad game design and poorly thought out mechanics.

    As someone who has made attempts to use pretty much every skill chain the class has to offer, I can tell you without question there is a 0 percent chance to beat a genuinely decent weaver without taking the nuclear option (outhealing them), even if they don't use their reflects. Born of Shadow is that good with the other changes to creeps and freeps right now. There is a reason a small set of tired gambit lines are what every warden uses right now, and the wardens who use different ones are few, far between, and still enjoyed less success than those who do do the same thing. Those methods aren't actually viable (upfront damage based dps) or are generally #### (healspamming).

    Just about every class on either side has a way to deal with a stealthed foe, and bringing them up in relation to this is a complete straw man arguement. On the other hand, what about classes that have no choice in the application of their bleeds? A fire runekeeper cannot retrait in combat, a guardian can do nothing to prevent the application and stacking of their bleeds beyond not using ANY skills, are they supposed to beat the weaver by AFKing until the weaver pops reflect for the lolz? Similar statement, slightly diminished potency for champs.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post

    Just about every class on either side has a way to deal with a stealthed foe, and bringing them up in relation to this is a complete straw man arguement. On the other hand, what about classes that have no choice in the application of their bleeds? A fire runekeeper cannot retrait in combat, a guardian can do nothing to prevent the application and stacking of their bleeds beyond not using ANY skills, are they supposed to beat the weaver by AFKing until the weaver pops reflect for the lolz? Similar statement, slightly diminished potency for champs.
    I have no comment on your first 3 paragraphs. Also I respect your points and your skills as a warden, you are very good.

    The above quote, from how I read it, basically states 'Some classes can't kill the weaver and/or adjust to TC because of their skill set? Not fair.' Ok I get that. I don't see that as a flaw though. Its my opinion that some classes, when in 1v1 encounter, are not necessarily competitive with one another. One class has a distinct advantage over the other because of heal, damage, cc, or debuff skills. That's sort of the way battle should be. A queen will easily take a pawn in chess. However a pawn will often be one of the last pieces on the board to assist in checkmate. This is a RvR pvp environment and not all classes are evenly matched, nor should they be. If a fire RK encounters a weaver then its just one part of play in the big picture. How do we ask the devs to simplify classes to the point that we have nothing left to critique with one class over another or one trait line over another? It needs to be acknowledged that variances in classes on both freep and creep side are going to be in significant contrast when taken to specific scenarios.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimrinoth View Post
    Except freep dots are scaled to damage creeps with double sometimes triple the amount of morale. So even if the reflect is only 15 seconds, that 15 seconds can tear you apart. Add in the fact that the spider will also be dealing damage to you while reflect is up and you start taking quite alot of damage. No one is saying scrap the skill, but clearly some changes should be made to it. I vote for an increased cd.

    To me a fun and interesting fight is one where my options are limited to spam healing my way to victory. That's lame and i don't enjoy it.

    As for burgs i agree, however as long as you have a dot that can't be potted and lasts longer then 10 seconds you know they will emerge from hips 10 seconds later.
    You are obviously right about the morale pool difference. However the TC reflect is passing through the weaver's mitigations, which are rather high, and then the freeps mits. So the DoT's applied to the spider are unlikely proportionate to what the freep will experience in return. Also, some freeps will have the ability to be healing during the battle, removing debuffs, removing acid dmg, and finally fleeing the range of the spider to regen. I wouldn't be opposed to the increase of the cd. However I could make a list of the skills that some freep classes have that should also have an increas in cd. That leads to the center issue, from my perspective, why inflate the TC skill as being so OP when sooooo many other skills on both freep and creep side are also OP. If I saw a thread that listed by class each skill that deserved a nerf and that TC was one of them I would have no disagreement. I would +1 that thread. My frustration is that almost all the threads generated right now are partial to freep benefit ignoring the comparable perspective of the creep classes. Partisan perspective on pvp skills... LOL! Can we get a little bipartisanship in government anymore? Omg, I hate politicians!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    I have no comment on your first 3 paragraphs. Also I respect your points and your skills as a warden, you are very good.

    The above quote, from how I read it, basically states 'Some classes can't kill the weaver and/or adjust to TC because of their skill set? Not fair.' Ok I get that. I don't see that as a flaw though. Its my opinion that some classes, when in 1v1 encounter, are not necessarily competitive with one another. One class has a distinct advantage over the other because of heal, damage, cc, or debuff skills. That's sort of the way battle should be. A queen will easily take a pawn in chess. However a pawn will often be one of the last pieces on the board to assist in checkmate. This is a RvR pvp environment and not all classes are evenly matched, nor should they be. If a fire RK encounters a weaver then its just one part of play in the big picture. How do we ask the devs to simplify classes to the point that we have nothing left to critique with one class over another or one trait line over another? It needs to be acknowledged that variances in classes on both freep and creep side are going to be in significant contrast when taken to specific scenarios.
    I guess the difference I see is that a number of classes (most notably guards and fire RKs) have essentially no possible way to deal with the weaver using TC other than attempt to flee, unlike some of the other rocks paper scissors scenarios in lotro, like BAs with MT against hunters, which while putting a hunter at a disadvantage, the hunter still has counterplay. Same goes for burgs/wargs with hips/stealth and choosing when to engage and when to flee or wait out an inopportune moment. I get that some classes have the edge over others based upon skillsets, heck my primary class has that on basically every creep class and has for the better part of its entire existence, but this particular skill is the most glaringly obvious thing that offers no real opportunity for counterplay.
    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    You are obviously right about the morale pool difference. However the TC reflect is passing through the weaver's mitigations, which are rather high, and then the freeps mits.
    Just to clarify, TCs damage is a direct reflect of the actual damage the weaver took, so it does respect the amount of mits a weaver has, but a freeps mitigations are irrelevant to the damage they take. And Born of Shadow is a toggle, which is especially troublesome with the potential to reflect, switch off BoS, and then Burrow heal.

  17. #17
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    I asked Jinjaah about this during the Taking Hobbits to Isengard:

    14 - Weavers are reflecting dots and bleeds with Toxic Carapace. Is this a bug or is it working as intended because apparently it’s wreaking havoc with guardians and burgs and wardens
    Jinjaah – It is a reflect so you do have to be careful about it. He doesn’t know what the grace period is with the reflects, maybe there’s a bug in that, but it’s pretty obvious when it goes up so when it does you really just have to back off that target.

    So, it's probably something they dont even know it is happening...

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    I have no comment on your first 3 paragraphs. Also I respect your points and your skills as a warden, you are very good.

    The above quote, from how I read it, basically states 'Some classes can't kill the weaver and/or adjust to TC because of their skill set? Not fair.' Ok I get that. I don't see that as a flaw though. Its my opinion that some classes, when in 1v1 encounter, are not necessarily competitive with one another. One class has a distinct advantage over the other because of heal, damage, cc, or debuff skills. That's sort of the way battle should be. A queen will easily take a pawn in chess. However a pawn will often be one of the last pieces on the board to assist in checkmate. This is a RvR pvp environment and not all classes are evenly matched, nor should they be. If a fire RK encounters a weaver then its just one part of play in the big picture. How do we ask the devs to simplify classes to the point that we have nothing left to critique with one class over another or one trait line over another? It needs to be acknowledged that variances in classes on both freep and creep side are going to be in significant contrast when taken to specific scenarios.
    Except no class was originally designed to have no counters in 1v1 scenario's. Dare-say, 1v1's weren't primarily in mind, but with the concept designs of each class, there carried the capabilities for each class to have ability in countering each other, even if it is much harder for one specific class.

    In effect, no one player should be able to inherently beat another player simply because of class matchups alone. One class can have distinct advantages over another class, to the point that it takes high measures of skill/tactics to be able overcome that person.

    However, there's no skill counter to a reflect which allows me to kill myself without any contribution from the person I'm attacking.

    I ganked a weaver only yesterday who popped reflect very quickly after I applied most of my DoTs. In just over 20 seconds of sustained damage, I did 3x more damage to myself than the spider did, who only applied not much more than two dots on me. By the end of the fight, if I hadn't use never surrender I would have killed myself before the weaver died. Even after my NS heal, I was left with 7.5k morale by the time the spider died.

    That's not competitive at all. It's not even innately anything close to skillful play either. I mean, he didn't even move like he was wanting to fight me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    You are obviously right about the morale pool difference. However the TC reflect is passing through the weaver's mitigations, which are rather high, and then the freeps mits.

    So the DoT's applied to the spider are unlikely proportionate to what the freep will experience in return.
    You destructed your own argument there. I dubt both mitigations are actually taken into account. But lets consider the mitigations of both parties. I still think the damage would be more than proportionate for the free person attacking the weaver. Why? Because of the innate moral difference between freep and creeps.

    In the above example I gave, I took roughly 37k damage for a total of 1200 TPS. I did 1600 DPS for a total of 49k damage. The weaver in question had about 45ishk (can't remember these last two numbers exactly, he might have had 49k and I might have done more than 50k damage - These numbers are my attempts at recollecting the parse).

    20k, or rather, 812 TPS of the damage I received was from myself. The remaining damage was mainly from two spider dots, the spider pet (who only survived a short time) and a nearby troll.

    Did I mention I only have 26k morale (This is also very much higher than the average freep morale pool)?
    Considering the weaver had almost exactly double my morale, the reduced damage from either persons mitigations actually seemed to make it quite closely proportional to the damage I took from the reflect.

    Mathematically though, It would seem more logical to assume the reflect damage is not mitigated by the freeps own mitigations. The damage I was also seeing myself receive looked pretty identical to the damage I was dishing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    Also, some freeps will have the ability to be healing during the battle, removing debuffs, removing acid dmg, and finally fleeing the range of the spider to regen.
    Classes that primarily do DoT based damage will not be able to counter-heal their own damage on top of the damage being sustained from their opponent. At least not without the use of a very large cooldown, such as NS which has a cooldown of up to 10min (What CD does TC have?).

    They can use pots and maybe even a skill to delay the lowest source of incoming damage (in the case of my example, the damage from the weaver. In the case of blood of fire, the DoT effects from a reaver), but when as little as 15% (low-end reaver scenario) and up to 70% (weaver scenario) of the incoming damage is from over time effects already applied, what is that person actually able to do to counter?
    The damage from the weaver reflect is at least proportional to freep morale. When the effects are already applied, there's practically very little counter options available.
    In the case of the reaver, there is more time to heal and make counterplay, but the longer a fight is to go on for, the more likely the reflect is to be the main source of incoming damage.

    Good to note the real damage differences between reavers and weavers also. While reavers will reflect 15-20% of a persons damage mainly due to DoT effects, their own sustained and spike damage, coupled with their ability to life-steal (Wrath) makes the effect of their reflect duly comparable with weavers in terms of combat practicality.

    And I take it you're not serious about 'fleeing the range to regen'. Any spider who lets that happen willfully truly relies on TC too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    I wouldn't be opposed to the increase of the cd. However I could make a list of the skills that some freep classes have that should also have an increas in cd.
    I can help you make that list. But that doesn't mean that TC is not likely a problem in the respects brought up in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    That leads to the center issue, from my perspective, why inflate the TC skill as being so OP when sooooo many other skills on both freep and creep side are also OP.
    How is it being inflated? I think it's being quite real about the practical effects on competitive combat.

    We can start a discussion thread about all the other non-reflect skills that are over-proportionate, nothing stopping either of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    If I saw a thread that listed by class each skill that deserved a nerf and that TC was one of them I would have no disagreement. I would +1 that thread. My frustration is that almost all the threads generated right now are partial to freep benefit ignoring the comparable perspective of the creep classes. Partisan perspective on pvp skills... LOL! Can we get a little bipartisanship in government anymore? Omg, I hate politicians!
    This thread is not about Toxic Carapace alone. It is about the effect of 'over-time effects' on procing reflect bonuses in the ettenmoors.

    Toxic Carapace is one of these reflects, there are more.
    Certainly, there are also reflect or 'proc' bonuses that take advantage of over time effects on freepside too, namely with guardians and captains. Probably more. People are very welcome to include those skills in this discussion.


    To note, if I'm over-exaggerating the real effects of these numbers, I'm open to being wrong. Even if I am being not entirely accurate in some manner, this nonetheless, in my opinion, still remains a real-time issue in PvMP for specific classes.
    Last edited by Untg99; Apr 24 2014 at 03:11 AM.

  19. #19
    In reference to the last 2 posts.... Many points made deserve reply but Im not in a position to do that right now, or maybe ever.

    I do need to point out that still no one has mentioned how many times they have died from TC. I am thinking that none of you have to date. Show us a few screenies of future battles where you are not left standing after a TC encounter.

    If no one is dying from this skill then it is not an issue.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    In reference to the last 2 posts.... Many points made deserve reply but Im not in a position to do that right now, or maybe ever.

    I do need to point out that still no one has mentioned how many times they have died from TC. I am thinking that none of you have to date. Show us a few screenies of future battles where you are not left standing after a TC encounter.

    If no one is dying from this skill then it is not an issue.
    I know that as a warden I will almost certainly die every single time one of two things are met.

    1) Never Surrender (10min cd) is on cooldown

    2) It is not worth using a ten minute cooldown to combat a skill with a one minute thirty second cooldown



    2 is much more likely to occur for me personally, but undoubtedly for many it will be 1.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    I know that as a warden I will almost certainly die every single time one of two things are met.

    1) Never Surrender (10min cd) is on cooldown

    2) It is not worth using a ten minute cooldown to combat a skill with a one minute thirty second cooldown



    2 is much more likely to occur for me personally, but undoubtedly for many it will be 1.
    refer to post #19.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    refer to post #19.
    Refer to post #20?

    It will be killing people far more than it won't be. Don't understand your sentiment at all loool

  23. #23
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    Just because it isn't killing anyone doesn't mean it isn't a problem. Spam heals don't kill, but those are a problem for some classes. The problem with TC is it's potential to kill. Any person with half a brain won't try to stack as many dots on a spider as possible, that a fast way to get killed. But for classes that rely on dots to deal damage the potential to kill yourself in seconds acts as a huge throttle to the amount of dps you can do to a spider. This puts dot classes at a major disadvantage.

    As a warden if i rely on direct damage only and no dots i think my dps might be about even with a spiders dps, given the spider is decently played and uses catch a prey. How do i beat something that has more dps and more morale without going full spam heal? In a way, TC is the most dangerous when it hasn't been used.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Minnesota,USA
    Posts
    268
    Quote Originally Posted by Voter View Post
    In reference to the last 2 posts.... Many points made deserve reply but Im not in a position to do that right now, or maybe ever.

    I do need to point out that still no one has mentioned how many times they have died from TC. I am thinking that none of you have to date. Show us a few screenies of future battles where you are not left standing after a TC encounter.

    If no one is dying from this skill then it is not an issue.
    reflect period is broken Orcs,Weavers,Captains,Guards, Rks hell Even Defiant challenge on warden if you wanna get technical its badly broken PvE as well.

    the difference is on those classes its not a 100% reflect damage do survival of the barrowdowns if u wanna see what we are experiencing now those mobs have a perma 100% reflect

    I spent 3 hours fighting a friend on her spider, dps gear, mit gear it dint matter, shes a mit based spider so even my full mit based im still taking 900 bleed ticks with Full Mits, meanwhile my huge bleeds tick for like 500-600. the said spider has 50k health that's 2x my health bar even with the proper gearing now yet her bleeds hit harder, explain the logic here?

    you talk about theres ways around it, maybe with some classes but I spend 60% of the fight ccd, feared non stop no way to break out, dazed no way to counter it after pots/insignia r13. there are many viable ways for a spider to fight now and survive they don't even have to think about it just to play normally w/o being cheap.

    What I don't get is why you are defending a game breaking skill

    lets fight a spider who relys on it once if they wanna truly rely on it they can venom pip it up to 15 seconds, yet its on a one minute cooldown so that spider can proc it every 45 seconds. I Recall a certain warden skill that gave us 90% mits for 30 seconds with a 2min 30 second and creeps hated that

    however yes if I want to shield trait it can counter that because thank god our shield gambits don't bleed

    True this is all based on a lot of 1v1s/small groups

    Raid Vs Raid

    with the way spider is if it utilizes its stuns/dazes/fear that seems to be on a 15 second cooldown and debuffs and uses tc at the right moments and burrow itll do way more damage then say a cc/debuff class should be able todo with 1 skill
    Last edited by Lord_Cryptic; Apr 24 2014 at 01:19 PM.

  25. #25
    As unbelievable as it may sound to you your points aren't hitting the mark for me. Really, they are not. You are discussing how tedious 1v1's are for you now, or should I say hypothetical 1v1's.

    My queries are being conveniently missed or ignored. The new posts are redundant. I will pass on repeating myself.

 

 
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