Next step in moors tweaking

[giboosc]

Firepower and heals on creepside if fine atm, comparable to freepside. With this two goals reached devs should now reduce creep morale pool. -50% of current values should be a good start to test things.

[Dernudan]

WHOA
way too much

[giboosc]

WHOA
way too much

OFC is way to much, but as i said its a good start, for BR testing with next update. 3-4 builds of BR with tweaking creep morale pool and we should have this mistycal 'feel of balance'.

This should work if people would like to test things on BR instead of checking 'how EZ i can run atm' (ganking, zerging etc.)

[Dernudan]

I was on BR, the balance is much better than before. However, reducing morale by that margin is just crazy.

[Joebob7]

Rather than a -50% morale debuff to creeps, I'd like to see a -50% outgoing healing modifier on every player in the moors.

[Constrictions]

Taking the moors-scaling system out of the paws of the oxford lab rats, and into the hands of someone capable of critical thought might be a positive step.

[Qav]

Why decrease the creep morale? Increasing the morale that freeps have in the moors would probably be more successful because of some of the creep's corruptions that decrease/increase morale values giving a percentage rather than a set value. I don't want to see wardens running around with 75-85k morale, but something just to lightly even out the playing field would be better than something to change the game completely.
Also,

I'd like to see a -50% outgoing healing modifier on every player in the moors.

[Galwir]

To much healing and bubbles on both sides are what is killing pvp for a long time. decrease outgoing healing, or give every/close to every class massive incoming healing debuffs.
There are to many fights where one side can't do anything to other because of stacked heals on both sides.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

or give every/close to every class massive incoming healing debuffs.

Both sides have ample amounts of incoming healing debuffs, try using them with co-ordination and focus fire durr hurr.

[Giliodor]

Both sides have ample amounts of incoming healing debuffs, try using them with co-ordination and focus fire durr hurr.

Though I find it saddening that my Champion posseses none of these.

[Leopoldio]

Both sides have ample amounts of incoming healing debuffs, try using them with co-ordination and focus fire durr hurr.

Freeps inc healing debuff is a joke in compare to defi's blight. + to this, creeps now resist every inc healing debuff for like 85% of times. Try to dance with it.


Regarding steps to tweak: JUST bring back freeps what they were nerfed for. It is simple: freeps were nerfed x2. Cuz creeps got boost + freeps got nerf = 2x. Just do one thing at time, not 2.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

Though I find it saddening that my Champion posseses none of these.

Neither does my spider, ba or WL.

Freeps inc healing debuff is a joke in compare to defi's blight. + to this, creeps now resist every inc healing debuff for like 85% of times. Try to dance with it.

You're kidding, right? You can MOVE out of blight. Took freeps about a month to learn that when skills were put in the store. Hard to cure the freep inc healing debuffs when the pot only cures one first applied, not much help there. News flash, blight gets resisted too.

We had some RvR on Brandy today, freeps were dpsing through the heals of 6-8 defilers through inc healing debuffs and the right combination of classes. Try to figure things out, don't hurt your brains while doing it, but please, try to figure it out.

[freaker]

Why decrease the creep morale? Increasing the morale that freeps have in the moors would probably be more successful because of some of the creep's corruptions that decrease/increase morale values giving a percentage rather than a set value. I don't want to see wardens running around with 75-85k morale, but something just to lightly even out the playing field would be better than something to change the game completely.
Also,

Did you even read Ashtu's post? he said "rather than" means instead of. He was commenting on -50% in outgoing healing modifier.. And your post doesn't even mention a word about his comment, Why Quote him in the first place?

[Giliodor]

Neither does my spider, ba or WL.

It was about freep side though.

[Gray]

You're kidding, right? You can MOVE out of blight.

Put anti-stun/potion/brand on cd.
Coordinate BA's KD and blightL.
Profit.

Hard to cure the freep inc healing debuffs when the pot only cures one first applied, not much help there. News flash, blight gets resisted too.

You can't cure inc healing debuffs on both sides.

We had some RvR on Brandy today, freeps were dpsing through the heals of 6-8 defilers through inc healing debuffs and the right combination of classes. Try to figure things out, don't hurt your brains while doing it, but please, try to figure it out.

Freeps can stack up to 80% -inc healing, Average creep is r9 so have 124% inc healing.
Since inc healing add additively, average creep target by a freep raid have 124%-80%= 44%.
One defiler heal 5k5Hps average on single target.
6 defilers then heal 33kHps on a single target.
Creep so receive 33kHps * 0.4 = 14.520hps.

Conclusion, if creep dies against a fraid, they deal more than 14.520 dps on single target (which being on my reaver on Brandy atm, i didnt see).
Or they coordinated well enough to break the creep burst healing threshold (which being on my reaver on Brandy atm, i didnt see).
Or, and more likely, you guys cant ####in play healers (which being on my reaver on Brandy atm, i saw a lot).

The maths are free, dont have to thanks me.

/thread

[Moors-Battlemaster]

[QUOTE=Gray;7147811]Put anti-stun/potion/brand on cd.
Coordinate BA's KD and blightL.
Profit.

Lot of things to put on CD to get a kill. Then just use a minstrel rez when 5 are down. Easy.

You can't cure inc healing debuffs on both sides.

Pretty sure the Heartseeker one is pottable

Creep so receive 33kHps * 0.4 = 14.520hps.

Two fire RK's out dps that.

Or they coordinated well enough to break the creep burst healing threshold (which being on my reaver on Brandy atm, i didnt see).
Or, and more likely, you guys cant ####in play healers (which being on my reaver on Brandy atm, i saw a lot).

You're not counting the fact most freeps are also stupid.

[Gray]

Pretty sure the Heartseeker one is pottable

Who cares. By the time your HS hit the target you should have MS avaiable which replace the previous debuff, and that's if you dont have a red capt on your group which is already a bad start.
But i give you that, you're right. If you want to go that way RK's one is also pottable, but is like HS, it just get replace by anything else more powerful (aka Grave wound or MS)

two fire rk's out dps that.

ahahahahahahahahaha.

Edit:

Lot of things to put on CD to get a kill. Then just use a minstrel rez when 5 are down. Easy.

Actually one brand.
The other cds are for when you coordinate improved mes.
And guess what, Flayer's root dont need any of these things to get on cd.

Oh and btw, Mini's res is one person. If you let minis going OOC then it's your own fault.

[Leopoldio]

Neither does my spider, ba or WL.





You're kidding, right? You can MOVE out of blight. Took freeps about a month to learn that when skills were put in the store. Hard to cure the freep inc healing debuffs when the pot only cures one first applied, not much help there. News flash, blight gets resisted too.

We had some RvR on Brandy today, freeps were dpsing through the heals of 6-8 defilers through inc healing debuffs and the right combination of classes. Try to figure things out, don't hurt your brains while doing it, but please, try to figure it out.

You can't move out of blight if are was KDed, stunned, rooted (warg). Even if you hit antistun pot, it still has delay. 3-4 seconds is enough to drop target in good creep raid, with fast movements. You know that better then me. Blights is being resisted in average 15% of time, when freeps inc healing debuffs is resisted 80%. Try it on your own, roll a freep, do a proper raid, and tell me how you kill craids in current state. Unless you tried - you can't say anything much.

Regarding RvR today: you can't have at all times right combinations, GOOD ranked freeps at all times online. When on creepside - you can have it almost 7/24. Been there done that.
And tell me one good freep raid, who you/Mal couldnt beat in u12 ? Unless they were outnumbering you. Still - you have option to form a 2nd raid, Mal and you are often both online.
Only freep raid with good resistance was Chily's one. Mostly, cuz same players, same good r12+ 24 players. But still they got dropped too often.
In u12 i havent faced any fraid I couldn't beat, unless it was that rare case, when I couldn't get enough good players in my raid. And Im not that pro in leading as you or Mal.
IMHO u12 was pretty good, with good actions and healthy RvR. Yes it was hard for us to fight against them, but we did it and did it well, thats why we were good.
Easymoding for creeps doesn't make us any better then freeps.

[Qav]

Did you even read Ashtu's post? he said "rather than" means instead of. He was commenting on -50% in outgoing healing modifier.. And your post doesn't even mention a word about his comment, Why Quote him in the first place?

Yes, I did read his post, I didn't mean at all to state what he said in his to be integrated into mine, rather I was putting his post in as a quote to support the idea. Though, he wasn't commenting on anything when he stated the outgoing healing debuff, he was bringing in his own idea, hence the "Rather than... I'd like to see" portion, at least to me, showing that it did not yet exist, and either he came up with the idea or that he was taking the idea from elsewhere on the forums, as there is no other mention of that in this thread.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

[QUOTE=Leopoldio;7147830]You can't move out of blight if are was KDed, stunned, rooted (warg). Even if you hit antistun pot, it still has delay. 3-4 seconds is enough to drop target in good creep raid, with fast movements. You know that better then me. Blights is being resisted in average 15% of time, when freeps inc healing debuffs is resisted 80%. [QUOTE=Leopoldio;7147830]

Fear the warg rooting. I've seen people get healed even with blight on them, this is where RK bubbles come in handy. And captain bubbles, being on such a short CD. The fraid I fought last night had 6 yellow cappies, bubbles galore

Try it on your own, roll a freep, do a proper raid, and tell me how you kill craids in current state. Unless you tried - you can't say anything much

I've had levelled freeps that have PvMP'ed since SoA, currently playing my hunter leading groups and small raids. My heartseeker doesn't have any trouble putting its heal debuff as I laugh and watch defilers melt.

Regarding RvR today: you can't have at all times right combinations, GOOD ranked freeps at all times online. When on creepside - you can have it almost 7/24. Been there done that.
And tell me one good freep raid, who you/Mal couldnt beat in u12 ? Unless they were outnumbering you. Still - you have option to form a 2nd raid, Mal and you are often both online.
Only freep raid with good resistance was Chily's one. Mostly, cuz same players, same good r12+ 24 players. But still they got dropped too often.
In u12 i havent faced any fraid I couldn't beat, unless it was that rare case, when I couldn't get enough good players in my raid. And Im not that pro in leading as you or Mal.
IMHO u12 was pretty good, with good actions and healthy RvR..

Have you never fought Entrotrash's healstacks, with 8-10 minstrels and 4-6 yellow cappies? Yes those raids beat me, because in u12 there was no amount of DPS that could burn through them without having a 2nd craid. And no, it's not always possible for me to get the raid setup I want. Neither is it for freeps, but more and more of them have been levelling and gearing multiple classes for versatility. No, Chily's raids never had good players. Just faceroll healstack. And numbers. I spent most of u12 fighting between 30-60 freeps every time I had a raid out. The most I could get for 2nd craids was about 15.

[Gray]

Fear the warg rooting. I've seen people get healed even with blight on them, this is where RK bubbles come in handy. And captain bubbles, being on such a short CD. The fraid I fought last night had 6 yellow cappies, bubbles galore.

Let's play that game then. Stealth/Akhu pop -> Flayer Stance/interupt -> root. 3s if you're average.

If you've problem with captain bubbles, dont hit them and their BiA, and switch target faster. 6 Yellow cappies are 6 guys that do close to no DPS, its clearly not worth it to have more than one in a group (4 in a raid).

I've had levelled freeps that have PvMP'ed since SoA, currently playing my hunter leading groups and small raids. My heartseeker doesn't have any trouble putting its heal debuff as I laugh and watch defilers melt.

As stated above, bad or outnumbered by at least a 1.5/1 ratio creeps.

Have you never fought Entrotrash's healstacks, with 8-10 minstrels and 4-6 yellow cappies? Yes those raids beat me, because in u12 there was no amount of DPS that could burn through them without having a 2nd craid. And no, it's not always possible for me to get the raid setup I want. Neither is it for freeps, but more and more of them have been levelling and gearing multiple classes for versatility. No, Chily's raids never had good players. Just faceroll healstack. And numbers. I spent most of u12 fighting between 30-60 freeps every time I had a raid out. The most I could get for 2nd craids was about 15.

8-10 minis, 4-6 Ycapts ? and you were still dying to this ?

6 BA and 2 reavers was well enough to go through any form of freep healing u12, you must had been doing something wrong.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

Let's play that game then. Stealth/Akhu pop -> Flayer Stance/interupt -> root. 3s if you're average.

If you've problem with captain bubbles, dont hit them and their BiA, and switch target faster. 6 Yellow cappies are 6 guys that do close to no DPS, its clearly not worth it to have more than one in a group (4 in a raid).

Yes, so blight a target, and it gets bubbled. Switch to the non blighted target. Derp.

8-10 minis, 4-6 Ycapts ? and you were still dying to this ?

One captain goes red with OD set, spams oathies. Oathies on every target, creeps melt. No freeps die with every healer TFH'ing.

6 BA and 2 reavers was well enough to go through any form of freep healing u12, you must had been doing something wrong.

Ah I understand what I'm arguing against now, someone that sees everything in a perfect scenario and takes the other side to be terrible. Gotcha, keep living in that fantasy world buddy, idealists aren't very good IRL either.

[Gray]

Yes, so blight a target, and it gets bubbled. Switch to the non blighted target. Derp.

You have just one defiler on your raid ? kidding me ?

One captain goes red with OD set, spams oathies. Oathies on every target, creeps melt. No freeps die with every healer TFH'ing.

We had that kind of raid too, strangely we usually didnt melt. Problem ?

Ah I understand what I'm arguing against now, someone that sees everything in a perfect scenario and takes the other side to be terrible. Gotcha, keep living in that fantasy world buddy, idealists aren't very good IRL either.

2 non crit impales (5k5 each), 6 non crit VT (1k9 each). 22k4 burst in what i would call one of the worst scenario ever possible. But you're going to tell me that coordination 8 dps is hard right ?

But you know what, let me your Ingame name on brandy, less maths more reality. Mine is Tortank. If you need to check that in reality, i'll gladly lead one of your precious raid (my accent is horrible i have to warn tho).

[Moors-Battlemaster]

You have just one defiler on your raid ? kidding me ?

No, plenty of blights. Plenty of bubbles too, with other factors. Yes, CC+Blight is a highly effective tactic, I use it all the time. No, it doesn't work every time. Maybe 40% of the time?

We had that kind of raid too, strangely we usually didnt melt. Problem ?

Who is "we". And what trash freeps were you fighting?

2 non crit impales (5k5 each), 6 non crit VT (1k9 each). 22k4 burst in what i would call one of the worst scenario ever possible. But you're going to tell me that coordination 8 dps is hard right ?

No, perfect scenario for you, because all the dps is alive, none of it is being harassed and CC'ed or kited. Factor in server lag, mass freep burst healing and bubbles+RK TFH pre healing, and good luck.

But you know what, let me your Ingame name on brandy, less maths more reality. Mine is Tortank. If you need to check that in reality, i'll gladly lead one of your precious raid (my accent is horrible i have to warn tho).

With U13 I find the RvR atm to be quite balanced kill for kill, why didn't you lead in u12? Oh yes, because those perfect scenarios of yours would never happen and you'd get laughed at.

[Gray]

Who is "we". And what trash freeps were you fighting?

Sirannon creeps, from what i see playing on BW, sirannon freeps besides the fact that 90% of them are bads, are still better than yours. Strange indeed considering, it's the first US server.

No, perfect scenario for you, because all the dps is alive, none of it is being harassed and CC'ed or kited. Factor in server lag, mass freep burst healing and bubbles+RK TFH pre healing, and good luck.

Needing 6Ba and 2 reaver dosnt mean that these are the only dps you got. It's 8 dps, good craid got usually 12 minimum.

With U13 I find the RvR atm to be quite balanced kill for kill, why didn't you lead in u12? Oh yes, because those perfect scenarios of yours would never happen and you'd get laughed at.

I always did, hadnt a creep on BW because we had freeps to fight on my server.