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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonyx View Post
    I'm not "Lord" Sapience, but the question isn't whether NPCs should be able to defeat PCs, it's what level of challenge is appropriate. At the moment, the spectrum between the least powerful PCs and most powerful PCs has gotten so large that some people are having trouble with single white mobs while others are soloing raids.

    What Turbine has to do before even trying to balance content difficulty is to narrow the power gap.
    Since HD, landscape combat has been very easy. So easy that many of us have had little opportunity to learn what our newly traited characters could and should do. It was hard sometimes to use all the skills that needed incrementing (like self-heals) because the mobs died too fast. With this new update, we will have a much better opportunity to learn our characters strengths and weaknesses. With the establishment of all those new deeds, we are reminded of the options for making ourselves more secure.
    We are finally getting the chance to learn our characters in this new trait-tree environment. This is particularly, but not exclusively, true in the mid-level characters who do not have filled-in trees.

    As for soloing raids, that is, of course, a shame. I have a lvl95 character and I can't solo a raid. She isn't super-geared in part because I can't get the hang of BBs. So, those that do solo raids are not just high-level but high geared, high virtued and high motivated. For them, I recommend an incremental change to instances only while the rest of us get used to the changes so far.
    It's not that we are morons. But we are probably devoting less time and less concentration to the game then are the high achievers. Given a little time, we may be able to close the gap a smidgen.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ChromiteSwiftpaw View Post
    Turbine narrowed the power gap for characters by introducing skrait trees that lock people into certain skills/abilities and also inflating the stats/levels of pretty much all new gear. If someone gears their character as they should (i.e. don't keep using gear several levels below their own level) then the power gap stays pretty darn close. I think a lot of the gap happens when certain players are refusing to properly set up their Legendary Items and keep using very low level/non updated gear.
    You have an unrealistic idea of what a casual player will do. A casual player is probably in a mix of quest gear and drops, by definition several levels below. A casual player isn't going to grind virtues - they'll slot whatever they've acquired through normal questing. And if a casual player has too much trouble with landscape and ordinary quests, it's a serious problem.

    Moving the goalposts by saying that casual players need to behave like hardcore players isn't addressing the power gap, it's ignoring it.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Gallifrey. I need a Jelly Baby.
    Posts
    18,359
    Npcs should never, ever, EVER be able to kill a player. Now, a mob is a different story.

    But if I ever went into the Pony for a pint and Butterbur killed me, I'd be upset!
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  4. #29
    They didnt have the 'resources' to roll-out Helms deep in a satisfactory condition.
    They have less 'resources' now.
    'Resources' cost money.
    They dont consider Developers to be a "growth area".

    Dont hold your breath.
    [IMG]http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii500/supermaco/2800703.png[/IMG]

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonyx View Post
    You have an unrealistic idea of what a casual player will do. A casual player is probably in a mix of quest gear and drops, by definition several levels below. A casual player isn't going to grind virtues - they'll slot whatever they've acquired through normal questing. And if a casual player has too much trouble with landscape and ordinary quests, it's a serious problem.

    Moving the goalposts by saying that casual players need to behave like hardcore players isn't addressing the power gap, it's ignoring it.
    That really describes my playstyle while leveling. Of course I do look at my skills, what they do and how can they help me survive.

    But to be honest, I do not want to grind for virtues while leveling, I'll take what I get to improve my physical and tactical mits - that's it.
    Also I don't want to change my legendary weapons every level or slot them with relics better level 4 or 5, eat every buff food (what I have to cook on my own, or buy it), use every buff scroll (moral, power; scrolls that push your defense and offense; and hope tokens) - In my opinion thats perfectly fine at end level and in instances.

    Of course I do not want to go through the landscape, look at an npc and in the next second it's dead. But it should not be that way, that you really have to look at every freaking mob near the mob you really want. A lot of quests at higher levels have instances, with friendly npc, pulling every mob possible, can't hold aggro, or die trying, breaking stuns or do not even fight with you. Another thing are narrow caves and camps. (Don't want to mention mounted combat - just don't like this complete fail)

    When I level my alts, I want to have some fun, enjoy the time after work.

    At end level (95) it's a totally different story. There of course you should have high level virtues, equip that fits your level, and so on. And while playing instances with your kinnies, I do think there is enough time to fullfill your class role and to improve your playstyle and learn to use skills more often, then you did while leveling. For me it's much more efficient, running some instances with kinnies, which also play this class and benefit from their experience and get better and better.

    Hopefully you (try to) understand my point of view.

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    23
    All NPC guards do a respectable job in protecting there areas regardless of level in PVE. Ettenmoors is different and the NPC there could do with some boost since Creeps do seem overpowered against strongholds and encampments, many times ago they could go some way to protecting you but not now.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/292240000000b014f/01005/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    228
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheery View Post
    Since HD, landscape combat has been very easy. So easy that many of us have had little opportunity to learn what our newly traited characters could and should do. It was hard sometimes to use all the skills that needed incrementing (like self-heals) because the mobs died too fast. With this new update, we will have a much better opportunity to learn our characters strengths and weaknesses. With the establishment of all those new deeds, we are reminded of the options for making ourselves more secure.
    We are finally getting the chance to learn our characters in this new trait-tree environment. This is particularly, but not exclusively, true in the mid-level characters who do not have filled-in trees.

    As for soloing raids, that is, of course, a shame. I have a lvl95 character and I can't solo a raid. She isn't super-geared in part because I can't get the hang of BBs. So, those that do solo raids are not just high-level but high geared, high virtued and high motivated. For them, I recommend an incremental change to instances only while the rest of us get used to the changes so far.
    It's not that we are morons. But we are probably devoting less time and less concentration to the game then are the high achievers. Given a little time, we may be able to close the gap a smidgen.
    First off...why cant people see things from the way you put it...seeing the changes as a challenge and an oppertunity to get to know a characters abilities/good points/bad points etc (i know i cut it short i apologize) instead of moaning about how hard it it. Ultimately the game is still easy throughout...i tested on various alts and found no problems. The game (as things stand) made me use heals/cc/kiting to survive and was MUCH more rewarding (at lower levels 30-95).

    As for soloing skraids...my captain has all teal gear and 2 pieces from Big Battles and does this with a 3rd age spear weapon (lvl 95) and shield....and is by no means 'super-geared' as i refuse to upgrade anything on him. His virtues are un-slotted (when i solo the skraids) also, so mits are abysmal...yes i have to work to stay alive but i manage it without morale pots (power pots essential as power regen sucks). I even forgo a healer soldier for a dps one to make things go faster.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheery View Post
    So, those that do solo raids are not just high-level but high geared, high virtued and high motivated.
    I solo the easiest skraids at 95 on my undergeared Guardian (85 gear, 65 LIs, no stat tomes)
    It just takes hours because I have no DPS, unlike correctly geared Red Guardians
    Last edited by Castorix; Apr 22 2014 at 05:43 AM.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Central Victoria, Australia
    Posts
    1,876
    Quote Originally Posted by Cheery View Post
    Since HD, landscape combat has been very easy. So easy that many of us have had little opportunity to learn what our newly traited characters could and should do. It was hard sometimes to use all the skills that needed incrementing (like self-heals) because the mobs died too fast. With this new update, we will have a much better opportunity to learn our characters strengths and weaknesses. With the establishment of all those new deeds, we are reminded of the options for making ourselves more secure.
    We are finally getting the chance to learn our characters in this new trait-tree environment. This is particularly, but not exclusively, true in the mid-level characters who do not have filled-in trees.

    As for soloing raids, that is, of course, a shame. I have a lvl95 character and I can't solo a raid. She isn't super-geared in part because I can't get the hang of BBs. So, those that do solo raids are not just high-level but high geared, high virtued and high motivated. For them, I recommend an incremental change to instances only while the rest of us get used to the changes so far.
    It's not that we are morons. But we are probably devoting less time and less concentration to the game then are the high achievers. Given a little time, we may be able to close the gap a smidgen.
    Best post on this topic of balance, in a long while, in my opinion

    plus virtual rep.

    Tier 3 could be bit harder, in the meanwhile, for Castorix and the like. I don't think tier 3s skirms should be undermannable or puggable, especially on first attempt. At the moment they are. Particularly skraids. But in a week the damage will possibly be upped again, or the drop rate nerfed. It's happened before-often after expacs/expansions and the like. So I'd jump in a pug, and 'make hay while the loot shines' js

    Best way to learn group skills (both types of groups: managing multiple mobs and playing with others) is in this environment. There are lots of new players and some good leaders are back from the Moors for their first agers etc. The other skills are needed again but it's not mandatory for everyone to be experienced. Even more experienced players are adjusting so mistakes happen. Just follow the raid assist target (rat) pot any wounds, try do what leader says, send the leader a tell if you don't understand.Hopefully you'll get some nice shinies, a few deeds done, and definitely make some gold.

    On the pug issuec: If you get a rare bad apple who 'noobs you'-drop group and put them on ignore. It won't be worth the hassle. But that type of person is really really rare at the moment, in my experience. Maybe that's because I try to pug with at least one other player I know in the group or one other kinnie-generally 'nice' players stick together, so this means the group is likely to be fun for me. So don't let the odd expletive deleted player put you off trying out those unused group skills.
    Last edited by Calta; Apr 22 2014 at 05:39 AM. Reason: typos clarity of group skills meaning

    And the minstrel sang to them……”and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness.”

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Calta View Post
    Tier 3 could be bit harder, in the meanwhile, for Castorix and the like. I don't think tier 3s skirms should be undermannable or puggable, especially on first attempt. At the moment they are. Particularly skraids. But in a week the damage will be upped or the drop rate nerfed. It's happened before-a lot. So I'd jump in a pug, and 'make hay while the loot shines' js
    But even T1 raids/skraids are a lot too easy at lvl cap.
    I levelled up quickly my Guardian from 65 to 95 in a few days.
    I'm undergeared and I'm not a good Guardian (I never did any grouped instance), but the class is too OP.
    For example, as I have still 85 gear (Hytbold), I have a bonus which gives me... +130K morale (and *2 to Max Morale). This has no sense !
    (when I can use it in loop, it makes me invincible...)
    Last edited by Castorix; Apr 29 2014 at 10:58 AM.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Doo doo doo, lookin' out my back door...
    Posts
    4,248
    Before U13 I was commenting on my new LMs being OP, so much so I was taking out level 50 landscape mobs at level 39.

    Well since U13, I have noticed it being a bit more balanced. For example, the Giants (and Trolls) in the Misty Mountains used to have 7K-8K morale and now they are 11K and hit a bit harder. I can still solo them (on level) but it is not the cakewalk it was. I can get in peril if I am not careful and have to run if there are any adds.
    Kinships: Fifth Star Vagabonds on Crickhollow (Dotswith); Random Access on Arkenstone (Dottiel)

  12. #37
    If too far out of level then yes, I think they should.

    At level? Eh... really if you know your class it shouldn't be an issue.
    The one ... the only ... Meow.

  13. #38
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    103
    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonyx View Post
    You have an unrealistic idea of what a casual player will do. A casual player is probably in a mix of quest gear and drops, by definition several levels below. A casual player isn't going to grind virtues - they'll slot whatever they've acquired through normal questing..
    I completely agree with this statement and have spent a large part of the weekend inspecting people and their gear to see the types of armour and jewelery they wear when struggling with landscape content. I have noticed that many of the "newer" players into LOTRO do not take the time to investigate whats stats are required by their class to make them as effective as possible to the point where I have seen Light armour classes wearing main stat Might over vit jewelery. After seeing this and talking to afew of them their virtues are all sitting between 6-10 when they are running lvl 95 content. Its no wonder those people find the game more difficult and dont seem to be using the class they are running as effectively as they should or could.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonyx View Post
    Moving the goalposts by saying that casual players need to behave like hardcore players isn't addressing the power gap, it's ignoring it.
    There has to be a limit as to how far goalposts are moved if at all or whether the newer players being "coached" by the more experianced. Most people by level 95 are in a Kinship and have access to channels such as GLFF or the regional channels for advice or assistance but do many people use these? Yes there are Trolls in the gaming world but there are also some decent people who are willing to "help" people with any information they may need to survive even those who will craft guild gear for others free of charge. Personally i crafted and gave away numberous 2nd age weapons to newly lvl 95 characters on Meneldor over the course of the weekend. Help is available to those who ask for it all people have to do is ask.

    Rimfin

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    In the Ninky Nonk
    Posts
    4,395
    If "casual" players are not willing to "grind" virtues and this game is being balanced / structured to appeal to casual players most of all, then surely the obvious answer is to get rid of virtues. No?
    <A sig goes here>

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    5,817
    Quote Originally Posted by PypeRings View Post
    I have never been boarded by a game. Pirates, sure. But I usually manage to repel them.

    Also, it you quit already, why do you care?
    Yeah, the game is what it is. Play it (that's not directed at you) or move on it it's no longer satisfactory.

  16. #41
    Good players have always been able to solo group content. This is just one example ... Guardian lv 65 solo SH

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBN5AqLtWhs

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Castorix View Post
    But even T1 raids/skraids are a lot too easy at lvl cap.
    I levelled up quickly my Guardian from 65 to 95 in a few days.
    I'm undergeared and I'm not a good Guardian (I never did any grouped instance), but the class is too OP.
    For example, as I have still 85 gear (Hytbold), I have a bonus which gives me... +130K morale (and *2 to Max Morale). This has no sense !
    (when I can use it in loop, it makes me invincible...)

    Hey I got an idea. Maybe we should just nerf your Guardian. Just yours, nobody elses...

    /sarcasm off

    Nerfing characters into oblivion is not the answer. Turbine needs to scale up difficulty in other ways. Gutting the Vit contribution to mits was an easy way out for them that didnt really effect guardians, and absolutely made some classes over the top hard to play in alot of situations. Everyones answer is "up your mitigations with traits". Yeah, thats the answer. Lets use a system to fill in the blanks that was never fully optimized for power creep and doesnt scale as you level.

    This is coming from a player with a well geared and traited lvl 95 guardian, who plays both blue and red line, and started playing shortly after release.

    Also, you have a 2011 join date on these forums? How old is your account? I dont think you ever played back in the SoA days when things really were "hard". RoI in 2011 was hardly a really difficult expansion even though it probably was the last really "good" expansion content wise.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcho_Brandybuck View Post
    Good players have always been able to solo group content. This is just one example ... Guardian lv 65 solo SH
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBN5AqLtWhs
    Mechanics have changed : bosses come together now in SH T2/T2C
    And the big problem is that bad and undergeared players solo 6-man T2C and 12-man instances now (my case with my Guardian : I'm a very bad Guardian, but nearly immortal...)

 

 
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